Very hard to get diesel started

michaelg

My 02 Peugeot Partner (non HDi) is a bitch to start on these cold mornings, took me 6 turns to get it going today, after a few minutes of driving its fine for the rest of the day .
so far
Heater plugs checked
Fuel injectors checked

Ive been recommended to re-shim the tappets, but woundnt they be making an awful noise if they wernt right ?
My mechanic has recommended adding a fuel primer bulb as a possible easy/cheap solution ?

Any ideas ?

Mycroft H

Hows your battery? We've a Hdi with similar problems, tough to get going but a new battery (exceeding the manufactures specs) provides enough juice to start quick enough. This is the time when a bad battery becomes evident, they struggle on cold mornings.

If that doesn't work move onto things like plugs etc.

navara man

michaelg wrote: »

My mechanic has recommended adding a fuel primer bulb as a possible easy/cheap solution

or you could put a one way valve in the fuel line only about 6 euro in a motor factors.. if the problem is that of diesel leaking back to the fuel tank

michaelg

BX 19 wrote: »

Hows your battery? We've a Hdi with similar problems, tough to get going but a new battery (exceeding the manufactures specs) provides enough juice to start quick enough. This is the time when a bad battery becomes evident, they struggle on cold mornings.

If that doesn't work move onto things like plugs etc.

thanks,,,New battery bought last year at halfords

michaelg

navara man wrote: »

or you could put a one way valve in the fuel line only about 6 euro in a motor factors.. if the problem is that of diesel leaking back to the fuel tank

cheers mate
You can get a fuel primer bulb with a one way valve built in, wont that do the same job ?

navara man

michaelg wrote: »

cheers mate
You can get a fuel primer bulb with a one way valve built in, wont that do the same job ?

i would think so if had a one way valve built in . i had car and the diesel start leaking back to tank so whent to motor factor and got one way fuel valve (the one i got had no primer bulb ) it was put in just after the fuel filter up in the engine bay. and that was about 3 year ago it start every morning now ......... make sure you put it in the one way valve with arrow pointing to the fuel pump

Row

If the glow plugs and fuel lines are o.k then i'd get the compression checked...this should pick up any sticking valves.

The Big Lebowsky

Hard starting in a diesel is usually the result of a plugged up fuel filter...
Try replacing it first before you investigate further;)

George Dalton

michaelg wrote: »

Ive been recommended to re-shim the tappets, but woundnt they be making an awful noise if they wernt right ?

No because the problem with these engines is they get too tight rather than too loose.

When these are hard to start due to tight tappets you can usually tell by the sound of the engine when it is cranking over as it is losing compression. So if you can post a video of it when it is difficult to start I should be able to help you diagnose it

michaelg

George Dalton wrote: »

No because the problem with these engines is they get too tight rather than too loose.

When these are hard to start due to tight tappets you can usually tell by the sound of the engine when it is cranking over as it is losing compression. So if you can post a video of it when it is difficult to start I should be able to help you diagnose it

here it is on youtube now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwD1AB2ath0&feature=youtu.be

George Dalton

Tappets.

Nissan doctor

George Dalton wrote: »

Tappets.

It has a distinctive sound on those engines alright.

dgt

Glow plug relay perhaps?

Nevermind, just watched that video

michaelg

Nissan doctor wrote: »

It has a distinctive sound on those engines alright.[/Quote

no doubt tappets is a specialised job,, any idea what it might cost to fix ?

George Dalton

Lots of time involved, plus the cam belt has to come off to do it so it may make sense to replace that at the same time depending on mileage/history.

Nissan doctor

michaelg wrote: »

no doubt tappets is a specialised job,, any idea what it might cost to fix ?

Any decent mechanic could do it, A time was it was one of the most basic service jobs done on every car. It is quite time consuming on that engine though, 5odd hours listed IIRC.

michaelg

semi-success
So changed heater plugs last night, and it started first go this morning, then conked out.
Started again no problem and i had to rev a little to keep her going for a few seconds,,,, she continued to miss for aabout 2 to 3 minutes then was perfect.

I have a feeling air is getting into the system somewhere,

michaelg

CAn any mechanic do a wet/dry compression test ? is it a simple enough thing to do ?

had a look online, seems simple enough

Nissan doctor

michaelg wrote: »

CAn any mechanic do a wet/dry compression test ? is it a simple enough thing to do ?

had a look online, seems simple enough

They would need to have the correct equipment, not all do, but yes, its simple enough to do.

dieselbug

http://www.picoauto.com/pressure-transducer.html

Results of this on it would be interesting to see.

The Big Lebowsky

It's Not getting Enough Fuel...
It needs a new fuel filter....

michaelg

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

It's Not getting Enough Fuel...
It needs a new fuel filter....

HAd this problem ongoing for a while now,,, any time I've changed the fuel filter it makes no difference to my problem.
Bitch was hard to start again this morning.

Rang diesel sevices in cashel, they charge 100 for a diagnostic and 80 for a compression test.
http://www.dieselinjectionservices.ie/

Nissan doctor

michaelg wrote: »

HAd this problem ongoing for a while now,,, any time I've changed the fuel filter it makes no difference to my problem.
Bitch was hard to start again this morning.

Rang diesel sevices in cashel, they charge 100 for a diagnostic and 80 for a compression test.
http://www.dieselinjectionservices.ie/

A compression test is part of diagnostics..

michaelg

Nissan doctor wrote: »

A compression test is part of diagnostics..

Thats what i would have though,, 180 in total is what they asking .

Nissan doctor

michaelg wrote: »

Thats what i would have though,, 180 in total is what they asking .

:eek:

They'd want be guaranteeing about 3 hours of diagnostic time for that money IMO and not just reading fault codes and doing a compression test.

michaelg

Nissan doctor wrote: »

:eek:

They'd want be guaranteeing about 3 hours of diagnostic time for that money IMO and not just reading fault codes and doing a compression test.

thats what id be concerned about,,

Well its deffo not the plugs/lead/relay as the bastard took 3 turns to get started today, the **** ! (but it was a good bit easier to start than normal)
will hardly get it sorted this side of xmas i doubt

i should also hasten to add, i get a blast of white smoke out the exhaust when it does start (only once in morning) this dies down almost immediatly to small puffs of white smoke for a minute or two. after that runs great, smooth , no smoke or loss of power etc.

Nissan doctor

Black/brown smoke would normally indicate a compression or combustion issue.

Do you have any cooling issues or does it use any coolant?

michaelg

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Black/brown smoke would normally indicate a compression or combustion issue.

Do you have any cooling issues or does it use any coolant?

Dosent use any coolant or have any cooling issues,,, just off the phone with a guy who works with diesels and said its very possible that the timing may be off ?

dieselbug

Where are you situated

Diesel injection services in Cashel does have a good reputation, but expensive. Not a million from them myself.

michaelg

dieselbug wrote: »

Where are you situated

Diesel injection services in Cashel does have a good reputation, but expensive. Not a million from them myself.

I'm only an hour's drive away,, good to hear a positive comment on them

Chimaera

Yeah, I'd second the guys in Cashel for doing a good job. The white smoke in the exhaust does sound like unburned fuel which would point the finger at timing. But I don't know if those cars use any mechanical timing or if it's all electronically controlled.

michaelg

Chimaera wrote: »

Yeah, I'd second the guys in Cashel for doing a good job. The white smoke in the exhaust does sound like unburned fuel which would point the finger at timing. But I don't know if those cars use any mechanical timing or if it's all electronically controlled.

Thanks,, if the timing was off,, wouldn't it be a problem all the time, my problem is only for a few minutes on a cold morning

Chimaera

The timing is always adjusted on diesels for cold starting, so it may be an issue with some part of that setup. It's even been known to happen that cars got buggy ECUs with the cold start programming being dodgy. You'd need diagnostics run to determine what's going on with this though.

michaelg

George Dalton wrote: »

Tappets.

thanks
but how can you be so sure ?
if it was tappets woudnt the problem manifest itself elsewhere during day to day running?
after a few minutes the van runs great, no white smoke or power loss , very smooth etc etc and runs great for the rest of the day.
isnt it possible fuel is slowly siphoning back to tank overnight ?

Ronnie Beck

michaelg wrote: »

very smooth etc etc and runs great for the rest of the day.
isnt it possible fuel is slowly siphoning back to tank overnight ?

Listening to your youtube video it sounds to me like the start of injection was off one way or another. Hard to get going and a bag of spanners once it does. Either that or air in the fuel line. Mistimed injection can give a real kango hammer sound to a diesel engine.

Is it a belt driven pump on these engines?

dieselbug

"They'd want be guaranteeing about 3 hours of diagnostic time for that money IMO and not just reading fault codes and doing a compression test."

This guy is probably one of the top diesel specialists in the country. Well trained, well equipped, professional outfit.
However, this means high overheads. Premium service at a premium price I would say. Would"nt expect to get 3 hours labor and use of equipment for e180 but I could be wrong. I would expect to get an accurate and detailed diagnosis though and not maybe"s and mights.

I dont have any connection to him and probably only ever spoke to him a couple of times, but credit where credit is due, he"s been there a long time and reputation has always been good.

George Dalton

michaelg wrote: »

thanks
but how can you be so sure ?

I can't be sure without seeing the van but it certainly sounds like it from the video.

michaelg wrote: »

if it was tappets woudnt the problem manifest itself elsewhere during day to day running?

No, I have seen this multiple times with these vans, we used to look after heaps of them and this was a regular occurence. It's less than an hour's work to remove the cam cover and check the valve clearances. I bet you will find that all of the exhaust valves are tight and possibly a couple of the intake valves as well.

michaelg wrote: »

isnt it possible fuel is slowly siphoning back to tank overnight ?

It is possible yes. But spending €180 on a diagnostic scan and a compression test isn't going to help you if this is the case.


Where are you located?

michaelg

George Dalton wrote: »

I can't be sure without seeing the van but it certainly sounds like it from the video.



No, I have seen this multiple times with these vans, we used to look after heaps of them and this was a regular occurence. It's less than an hour's work to remove the cam cover and check the valve clearances. I bet you will find that all of the exhaust valves are tight and possibly a couple of the intake valves as well.




It is possible yes. But spending €180 on a diagnostic scan and a compression test isn't going to help you if this is the case.


Where are you located?

Thanks for that, based in Kilkenny
where are you based?

George Dalton

We are between Portlaoise and Abbeyleix in Co Laois.

michaelg

George Dalton wrote: »

We are between Portlaoise and Abbeyleix in Co Laois.

thanks, that's good to know.

one of the things I don't understand is,, if the tappets are tight and making it hard to start in the morning,,, then why is it easy to start the van for the rest of the day ?

I would imagine I'm either losing pressure or fuel is draining away from the engine slowly over a period of time,, but I'm no expert,, just trying to understand what's going on.

cheers

Crooked Jack

michaelg wrote: »

My 02 Peugeot Partner (non HDi) is a bitch to start on these cold mornings, took me 6 turns to get it going today, after a few minutes of driving its fine for the rest of the day .
so far
Heater plugs checked
Fuel injectors checked

Ive been recommended to re-shim the tappets, but woundnt they be making an awful noise if they wernt right ?
My mechanic has recommended adding a fuel primer bulb as a possible easy/cheap solution ?

Any ideas ?

This happened my car after putting some dodgy diesel in it. Spent a few hundred quid getting things checked and changed and it has made no difference.

Nissan doctor

dieselbug wrote: »

"They'd want be guaranteeing about 3 hours of diagnostic time for that money IMO and not just reading fault codes and doing a compression test."

This guy is probably one of the top diesel specialists in the country. Well trained, well equipped, professional outfit.
However, this means high overheads. Premium service at a premium price I would say. Would"nt expect to get 3 hours labor and use of equipment for e180 but I could be wrong. I would expect to get an accurate and detailed diagnosis though and not maybe"s and mights.

I dont have any connection to him and probably only ever spoke to him a couple of times, but credit where credit is due, he"s been there a long time and reputation has always been good.

That's fair enough, if its a reputable place who will be properly diagnosing the problem then there is nothing wrong with charging appropriately for it. I was just making the point to the OP to make sure he was getting more then codes read(most peoples understanding of 'diagnostics') and a compression test for €180.

coolbeans

BX 19 wrote: »

Hows your battery? We've a Hdi with similar problems, tough to get going but a new battery (exceeding the manufactures specs) provides enough juice to start quick enough. This is the time when a bad battery becomes evident, they struggle on cold mornings.

If that doesn't work move onto things like plugs etc.

A few years ago I had a 205 XRAD, little legend of a car especially the engine. After 400000 miles it started to run rough and smokey despite good plugs and battery. After endless diagnostics i went to an auto electric guy who said that I needed a high capacity diesel battery. After replacing the old but still good unit it started first time, ran smokeless under hard acceleration and the engine outlasted the body. Your engine is pretty similar to mine so i would advise getting a high capacity battery instead of the current standard unit. It transformed the car.

dieselbug

"That's fair enough, if its a reputable place who will be properly diagnosing the problem then there is nothing wrong with charging appropriately for it. I was just making the point to the OP to make sure he was getting more then codes read(most peoples understanding of 'diagnostics') and a compression test for €180."

I wasn"nt having a dig at you or anyone else and hope I did"nt come across like that. Simply making the point that their reputation is good but expensive. Their main area AFAIK would be pumps, injectors, tachographs, calibrations.
I agree e180 would be too much to pay if it just meant a code read and compression test.

The poster has already got good advise and probably the correct diagnosis from someone with an equally good reputation on here.

michaelg

hey George,,
any idea of what you would charge to do the tappets? I understand the timing belt would likely need to be changed too.

also could you guarantee this would sort my problem ?

George Dalton wrote: »

I can't be sure without seeing the van but it certainly sounds like it from the video.



No, I have seen this multiple times with these vans, we used to look after heaps of them and this was a regular occurence. It's less than an hour's work to remove the cam cover and check the valve clearances. I bet you will find that all of the exhaust valves are tight and possibly a couple of the intake valves as well.




It is possible yes. But spending €180 on a diagnostic scan and a compression test isn't going to help you if this is the case.


Where are you located?

George Dalton

Hi Michael, I tried to reply to your PM but for some reason it wouldn't send.

Rough cost including new timing belt kit and water pump would be €500. That assumes an average case where all four exhaust tappets need doing plus one or two of the inlets. The timing belt job on its own would usually cost about €300 just for reference.

We would obviously diagnose the problem fully before proceeding with the work. Checking the valve clearances is a straightforward task so you aren't going to end up in a situation where you hand over a large amount of money and find that the problem isn't solved.

If you have any other questions just ask. If you want to give me a call to discuss any of the above then you can call the garage on 057 8731372 and ask to speak to me.

George

michaelg

George Dalton wrote: »

Hi Michael, I tried to reply to your PM but for some reason it wouldn't send.

Rough cost including new timing belt kit and water pump would be €500. That assumes an average case where all four exhaust tappets need doing plus one or two of the inlets. The timing belt job on its own would usually cost about €300 just for reference.

We would obviously diagnose the problem fully before proceeding with the work. Checking the valve clearances is a straightforward task so you aren't going to end up in a situation where you hand over a large amount of money and find that the problem isn't solved.

If you have any other questions just ask. If you want to give me a call to discuss any of the above then you can call the garage on 057 8731372 and ask to speak to me.

George

Tganks for that George,, I'll probably be in touch soon .
one last question for now,,
I understand that tappets gradually wear out, making them looser,, what would cause tappets to become tighter over time on my van ?

thanks
Michael

George Dalton

Hi Michael,

The tappets themselves won't wear to any great extent on your engine, if they did you would have other issues as well as the poor starting.

The reason the clearances close up over time on the DW8 engine is valve seat wear which causes the valves to recede into their seats causing them to sit higher in the cylinder head. This obviously has the effect of closing up the clearances. The wear on the valve seats themselves won't cause any running issues in the forseeable future so a re-shim should sort the problem. I have never had to do the same engine twice, once seems to do the trick.

As an aside, most other diesel engines (including the PSA HDI) use self adjusting hydraulic tappets which are able to compensate for valve seat wear, the DW8 uses solid tappets with shims inside so no adjustment is possible without dismantling, measuring and re-shimming.

George

michaelg

Thanks everyone for your input,,

Left the van with George today to get sorted, hopefully should know in the next day or two exactly what the problem is.

michaelg

Big thanks to George who sorted my van, he was right all along, 4 tight intake valves,,, it started first thing this morning first time
Highly recommended mechanic guys.

George Dalton

Thank you for the business Michael, hope the van gives you plenty of trouble free service from now on!