Reporting RLJing -am I a hypocrite or is he worse than me?

DualFrontDiscs

Hi,

I cycled through a cross roads on red today. All 4 entries were on red, with the pedestrian crossing on green for all 4 crossings. I had come to a stop at the red, saw there was no pedestrians, knew the lights would turn next in my favour and slowly pedaled through.

The motorist beside me saw me moving off and he drove off.

So we both broke a red light. I honestly don't think the motorist realised what he was doing. He saw me moving and he moved too.

That the driver appeared to not be paying attention and unwittingly broke the red (from a full stop) seemed to me to be more concerning that actually breaking the red.

So I reported him to TrafficWatch. Massive double standards? Meh. Anyway.........

The local Garda station rang within an hour. Now I've had cause to ring TrafficWatch before and a month+ is what I was expecting.

Anyway, the Garda says he's willing to take the statement to initiate a prosecution, but warned that the driver could do the same to me and that in the eyes of the law both acts are the same (breaking a red).

So... what do you think I should do? And is the act of breaking a red on a bike the same as breaking a red in a car?

Didn't think it warranted a separate thread, so posting here. (now a new thread, especially for Friday!)

DFD.

Dermot Illogical

DualFrontDiscs wrote: »

Didn't think it warranted a separate thread, so posting here.

DFD.

I vote for a thread of it's own, but wait until the morning. Perfect one for a Friday imho.

wanderer 22

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

I vote for a thread of it's own, but wait until the morning. Perfect one for a Friday imho.

Definitely, keep it on ice till the morning

Plastik

It's the same for a bike as a car.
You are actually worse in my opinion for making a conscious decision to break.

And you called TrafficWatch over it? The mind boggles.

buffalo

Plastik wrote: »

It's the same for a bike as a car.
You are actually worse in my opinion for making a conscious decision to break.

And you called TrafficWatch over it? The mind boggles.

Yeah... I'm boggling too. There is an occasional red that even I will break, because I'm jumping up and down on the sensor, and nothing is happening, and it's 2am. But to ride through, and then report a guy for doing the same thing I did?

You chose to break the law because you thought it was safe. What was different about his action? You have some presumptions I know. You should fully expect the law to apply to you as much as it does to him.

And definite separate thread! Mods, can you oblige pleeeease?

seamus

Kind of reminds me of the other morning. Guy spots that the other lights have gone amber and immediately rolls on through, then suddenly has to jam on to avoid hitting the car that's gone through the amber light. Car jams on, and the guy on the bike starts f'n and blinding and pointing back at the now red light, oblivious to the irony.

DualFrontDiscs

buffalo wrote: »

You chose to break the law because you thought it was safe. What was different about his action?

I don't think he realised he was breaking a red light. I think he saw me move and moved too. Whatever about cars running amber/ red lights, I've never encountered a car coming to a full stop and then simply driving through. So I guess what I think is different about his action is that he wasn't paying due care and attention. Now whether that's better or worse could be a matter for debate, which I guess this is.

buffalo wrote: »

You have some presumptions I know. You should fully expect the law to apply to you as much as it does to him.

100% no problem with that, was just curious as to whether the laws were the same.

countrykid

you can be charged with a criminal offence ( in court)as you dont have a license to penalize...i.e points or endorsements..

dont pursue it and more importantly learn from it...

RobertFoster

seamus wrote: »

Kind of reminds me of the other morning. Guy spots that the other lights have gone amber and immediately rolls on through, then suddenly has to jam on to avoid hitting the car that's gone through the amber light. Car jams on, and the guy on the bike starts f'n and blinding and pointing back at the now red light, oblivious to the irony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQCcvZdMB8E

:pac:


You're brave admitting liability like that, DFD, not only to a Garda, but to boards too

buffalo

seamus wrote: »

Kind of reminds me of the other morning. Guy spots that the other lights have gone amber and immediately rolls on through, then suddenly has to jam on to avoid hitting the car that's gone through the amber light. Car jams on, and the guy on the bike starts f'n and blinding and pointing back at the now red light, oblivious to the irony.

To add to the anecdote bank, I was behind a cyclist one morning in Harold's Cross, pedalling up the inside of stopped traffic. There was one car a little bit closer to the kerb than the rest, not particularly far in, but its wheels on the white line. Guy in front gave the wing mirror a right slap as he passes. I gave an embarrassed wave.

As we reach the next junction, he sails through the red light, not a bother on him.

Canis Lupus

DualFrontDiscs wrote: »

100% no problem with that, was just curious as to whether the laws were the same.

Of course they're the same, how the hell do you not know this?

I'm kinda surprised at the tame responses you got here. You break a red but report a car for the same thing??? That's some cheek

DualFrontDiscs

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I'm kinda surprised at the tame responses you got here. You break a red but report a car for the same thing??? That's some cheek

Well, as per my original post, rather than the thread title, my primary concern was that the driver wasn't paying attention. And a driver not paying attention driving a two tonne car is different to a cyclist who is paying attention. In my opinion.

And to exaggerate simply for effect, not trolling (honestly) if I was cycling along on the footpath, with no lights, drunk as a fart and I saw a driver driving in an erratic fashion, should I not report them, even though I am guilt of the same crime? If it is the same crime.

DFD.

brayblue24

DualFrontDiscs wrote: »

Hi,

I cycled through a cross roads on red today. All 4 entries were on red, with the pedestrian crossing on green for all 4 crossings. I had come to a stop at the red, saw there was no pedestrians, knew the lights would turn next in my favour and slowly pedaled through.

The motorist beside me saw me moving off and he drove off.

So we both broke a red light. I honestly don't think the motorist realised what he was doing. He saw me moving and he moved too.

That the driver appeared to not be paying attention and unwittingly broke the red (from a full stop) seemed to me to be more concerning that actually breaking the red.

So I reported him to TrafficWatch. Massive double standards? Meh. Anyway.........

The local Garda station rang within an hour. Now I've had cause to ring TrafficWatch before and a month+ is what I was expecting.

Anyway, the Garda says he's willing to take the statement to initiate a prosecution, but warned that the driver could do the same to me and that in the eyes of the law both acts are the same (breaking a red).

So... what do you think I should do? And is the act of breaking a red on a bike the same as breaking a red in a car?

Didn't think it warranted a separate thread, so posting here. (now a new thread, especially for Friday!)

DFD.

You've some neck. I can't believe you had the cheek to do that!!

De Bhál

If you actually done as you say and didn't make it up for kicks, well then I honestly hope you get a big **** off fine or something.

buffalo

Soooo... the way I read it, you think cyclists should be exempt from rules of the road, and you act that way. It's a red light, and you break it. You broke the law.

Then, a car driver, whom you think was not have been paying attention, committed the same offence. If he rolled down the window as he passed and shouted, "it's grand, I'm breaking it on purpose", would you have waved and smiled happily?

What exactly made you think he wasn't paying attention? It seems plausible that he might've thought, "screw it, he's going through, sure I'll go through as well".

(And I post this as a guy who reported a driver for very consciously breaking a red light earlier this week.)

DualFrontDiscs

brayblue24 wrote: »

You've some neck. I can't believe you had the cheek to do that!!

Hi brayblue24, in a follow up post I reiterated my concern that the driver wasn't paying attention.

So without being inflammatory, what bit of my OP is cheeky?

If I'd been a pedestrian witness to what I outlined in the OP and reported the driver to TrafficWatch, would that have been reasonable?
And if as that pedestrian witness I was able (by whatever means) to identify the cyclist to TrafficWatch, but chose only to report the driver, would that have been reasonable?

Is it that I was committing the same offence? As I hope I've clarified, my concern is/ was regarding the driver paying due care and attention.

Regards,

DFD.

GreeBo

To summarise, using an analogy (if I may)
You are guilty of murder.
He is guilty of manslaughter.

You think you are better than him how?

Bruthal

DualFrontDiscs wrote: »

Hi brayblue24, in a follow up post I reiterated my concern that the driver wasn't paying attention.

So without being inflammatory, what bit of my OP is cheeky?

If I'd been a pedestrian witness to what I outlined in the OP and reported the driver to TrafficWatch, would that have been reasonable?
And if as that pedestrian witness I was able (by whatever means) to identify the cyclist to TrafficWatch, but chose only to report the driver, would that have been reasonable?

Is it that I was committing the same offence? As I hope I've clarified, my concern is/ was regarding the driver paying due care andattention.

Regards,

DFD.

You should be taken off the road with that ridiculous and mindless mentality.

DualFrontDiscs

buffalo wrote: »

Soooo... the way I read it, you think cyclists should be exempt from rules of the road, and you act that way. It's a red light, and you break it. You broke the law.

No, I'm not saying that. 100%, I broke the law. I did ask if it was the same offence for cyclists as for drivers and if you took from that I believe cyclists should be except from the rules of road, I apologise.

And like I said, we both broke the red light from stopped.

buffalo wrote: »

Then, a car driver, whom you think was not have been paying attention, committed the same offence. If he rolled down the window as he passed and shouted, "it's grand, I'm breaking it on purpose", would you have waved and smiled happily?

I probably wouldn't have waved. But fair point.

buffalo wrote: »

What exactly made you think he wasn't paying attention? It seems plausible that he might've thought, "screw it, he's going through, sure I'll go through as well".

That's the feeling I got and as per the OP, whatever about tailing on amber/red or breaking red lights in the dead of night, it is unusual for cars to break red lights from stopped (in my opinion).

DFD.

jinkypolly

This has to be a wind up, surely nobody is as thick as this? Surely?

happytramp

Has to be a wind up. The Karmic consequences alone would be enough to cause me sleepless nights.

happytramp

jinkypolly wrote: »

This has to be a wind up, surely nobody is as thick as this? Surely?

Ha. You're not alone.

Canis Lupus

DualFrontDiscs wrote: »

Hi brayblue24, in a follow up post I reiterated my concern that the driver wasn't paying attention.

So without being inflammatory, what bit of my OP is cheeky?

If I'd been a pedestrian witness to what I outlined in the OP and reported the driver to TrafficWatch, would that have been reasonable?
And if as that pedestrian witness I was able (by whatever means) to identify the cyclist to TrafficWatch, but chose only to report the driver, would that have been reasonable?

Is it that I was committing the same offence? As I hope I've clarified, my concern is/ was regarding the driver paying due care and attention.

Regards,

DFD.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted, yeah that's right, flabbergasted!

Bruthal

jinkypolly wrote: »

This has to be a wind up, surely nobody is as thick as this? Surely?

Some people on the roads are easily that thick, and likely just as thick when they are at home. But it seems likely a bit of a wind up alright.

DualFrontDiscs

brayblue24 wrote: »

You've some neck. I can't believe you had the cheek to do that!!

De Bhál wrote: »

If you actually done as you say and didn't make it up for kicks, well then I honestly hope you get a big **** off fine or something.

robbie7730 wrote: »

You should be taken off the road with that ridiculous and mindless mentality.

jinkypolly wrote: »

This has to be a wind up, surely nobody is as thick as this? Surely?

happytramp wrote: »

Has to be a wind up. The Karmic consequences alone would be enough to cause me sleepless nights.

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I'm absolutely flabbergasted, yeah that's right, flabbergasted!

Well that escalated quickly!

Doctor Bob

I've seen cars reacting to other moving vehicles before- where the southbound 145 turns into Stillorgan, buses get a green in advance of the adjacent traffic in order to make the turn across three lanes, and the bus moving off would often prompt the adjacent car to start too, when still facing a red light.

And I've seen cars break reds a few times too, just because they couldn't be arsed waiting: Donnybrook end of Marlborough Road on a busy Saturday afternoon (left turn); bottom of Ailesbury Road on a quiet Sunday morning (right turn); Richmond Road onto Drumcondra Road around midnight on a Saturday (right turn- which is actually a banned right turn, so double points to this driver!).

To answer your questions, the act is the same legally, although maybe not the same morally. Unfortunately we don't yet have moral courts, so the law's the thing that counts. As for what you can do, how much room do you have to manoeuvre? Even if you don't follow through, could you still be done for RLJing? How do the Guards know you did it?

Your best bet might be to tell the Guards "I've thought it over, and I realise that any lessons from this episode have been learned already, so I'll take up no more of your valuable time. Happy Christmas."

Were you right to report him? It was either pretty brave or pretty foolish to report an indiscretion when doing so would reveal your own waywardness.

In the spirit of not trolling (honestly)- if the driver broke the lights on your cue, crossed the junction and hit someone who was running to catch the flashing amber man at the pedestrian crossing, to what extent would you feel culpable?

DualFrontDiscs

GreeBo wrote: »

To summarise, using an analogy (if I may)
You are guilty of murder.
He is guilty of manslaughter.

You think you are better than him how?

I didn't say I thought I was better than him. I think the thread title "Reporting RLJing -am I a hypocrite or is he worse than me?" provided by a mod when moved from off-topic chat suggests that.

KERSPLAT!

You knowingly broke a red light and told a Garda, why is he not prosecuting you considering you admitted to the offence?

As above, this must be a wind up

Doctor Bob

PS "Different For Drivers?" :pac:

KERSPLAT!

Ok I'll go with hypocrite

DualFrontDiscs

Doctor Bob wrote: »

In the spirit of not trolling (honestly)- if the driver broke the lights on your cue, crossed the junction and hit someone who was running to catch the flashing amber man at the pedestrian crossing, to what extent would you feel culpable?

That's an excellent point, thank you.

DFD.

marketty

I for one would like to hear the Motors forum take on this...

humbert

In a similar situation I got up on the bike to take off as the opposite lights went amber but unexpectedly they all went red for pedestrians so I rolled about a metre and put my foot back down. The car behind me shot through the junction spurred on by my start and not as willing to stop.


If you reported this guy you must spend half of your commute on the phone to trafficwatch!

Jawgap

This thread really needs a poll - the results of which should be passed to the Guard to determine if the prosecution should proceed.

A link to the thread should be posted in AH and Motors to make sure plenty of people vote

Lumen

I don't really see the problem. DFD both reported the driver and admitted his own offence. Let the law sort it out.

I wouldn't do it, but each to their own.

Two nights ago I completed the last km or so of my commute on the footpath, at walking pace, because both my battery lights ran out. I stopped (twice) when encountering pedestrians.

Is this equivalent to driving home on the footpath when my car lights fail? Would I be a hypocrite if the next day I reported a driver for driving on the footpath?

No, I don't think so, even though they are both illegal, because while it is easy to kill someone by driving over them at walking pace (as demonstrated by the horrific cases of people reversing over their own children), it is surely impossible to do the same on a bike.

Newaglish

If you're going at walking pace, why not get off the bike?

Lumen

Newaglish wrote: »

If you're going at walking pace, why not get off the bike?

My legs can't freewheel.

MrCreosote

You're both at fault, but the car driver is far more so.

You made sure it was safe- he just followed blindly. Your's was a victimless "crime"- if anything you were doing a favour by helping traffic flow.
He was driving 1 tonne of metal blindly through a red light- there's far more risk from this. You were right to report him.

CramCycle

DualFrontDiscs wrote: »

I didn't say I thought I was better than him. I think the thread title "Reporting RLJing -am I a hypocrite or is he worse than me?" provided by a mod when moved from off-topic chat suggests that.

I didn't think you were trolling, I was under the impression you were rolling on the basis that you knew the light sequence and it was about to change. I don't agree with what you done but I do agree that he is worse than you to an extent that he has more potential to harm.

Should you report, its really your call. If I thought anything could be done I would but the truth is, your admitting you broke the lights (guilty by admission) whereas his offence is your word against his so a judge would throw it out but it probably wouldn't get that far as the super would advise against it I imagine. So dob yourself in and waste Gardai time or learn from it. Simples.

Learn from it, don't do it again. People are sheep, if you break lights, at some point (usually straight after), people will follow you through, we are a nation with sheep in the majority. If you know better, lead by example.

Lusk Doyle

This must be a joke. Nobody in their right mind has dual front disks on their bike!!!

Panic over folks.

pom pom snaz peeler

your reporting someone for doing something you also did,..... are you serious?

your worse than a hypocrite.....

buffalo

CramCycle wrote: »

his offence is your word against his so a judge would throw it out but it probably wouldn't get that far as the super would advise against it I imagine. So dob yourself in and waste Gardai time or learn from it. Simples.

I don't think it would be dismissed that quickly. From reporting traffic offences in the past, the Gardaí do follow up (I know others have had worse experiences), and generally at least caution the offenders.

That's if they don't let the case get lost, or I don't misread the reg. Which has also happened.

kirving

MrCreosote wrote: »

You're both at fault, but the car driver is far more so.

You made sure it was safe- he just followed blindly. Your's was a victimless "crime"- if anything you were doing a favour by helping traffic flow.
He was driving 1 tonne of metal blindly through a red light- there's far more risk from this. You were right to report him.

So was the car going through the light. Did the car hit anyone? If not - victimless.

How do you know the car driver didn't make the same decision as the OP. You're allowed to break pedestian lights in lots of countries if noone is crossing. As far as I can tell, the driver was paying close attention to the cyclist nearby, and was also helping to improve traffic flow.

Based on the drivers quick reactions, I'm willing to assume that he could have stopped for anything in his path.

We can all make subjective decisons about the particular situation, but I think it's very hypocritical of the OP to have reported the driver who would have realised he was in the wrong very quickly.

Lumen

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

This must be a joke. Nobody in their right mind has dual front disks on their bike!!!

There is the Canyon Project 6.8.

But not all cyclists ride bicycles.

seamus

I'm kinda surprised at the tame responses you got here

We were waiting for the clock to tick over into Friday...

Basically this is no different to you being the car at the front of the queue, deciding it's OK to run the lights because the ped lights are green, then reporting the guy behind you because he followed you.

Unofficially speaking, the Gardai take a slightly dimmer view of people who ignorantly break the law - i.e. they would prefer that someone knows that they've done something wrong rather than be driving around in a state of blissful unawareness.

The Bishop Basher

The guards must have a right pain in the hole listening to you lot ringing up and reporting drivers all day. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen drivers and cyclists break the rules of the road but I have way too much going in in my life to bother getting out my little notebook and pencil and jotting down the details and calling traffic watch. I bet you even carry a notebook just for this yeah ? Are ye wannabe guards or what ???

And as for the OP. well you were in such a rush to report this guy you didn't even see the sheer and total hypocrisy in your actions. The fact you still don't is even more worrying. I would highly recommend removing your elongated nose from other road users business and sticking it firmly back in your own where it belongs. That way you might keep yourself out of these kind of tricky situations in future.

Just my 2 cents.

buffalo

Swanner wrote: »

The guards must have a right pain in the hole listening to you lot ringing up and reporting drivers all day. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen drivers and cyclists break the rules of the road but I have way too much going in in my life to bother getting out my little notebook and pencil and jotting down the details and calling traffic watch. I bet you even carry a notebook just for this yeah ? Are ye wannabe guards or what ???

We are the wannabe Gestapo. If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear.

The Bishop Basher

buffalo wrote: »

We are the wannabe Gestapo. If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear.

Judging by OP's actions in reporting himself I would agree. You have only yourselves to fear

MrCreosote

Kevin Irving wrote: »

So was the car going through the light. Did the car hit anyone? If not - victimless.


We can all make subjective decisons about the particular situation, but I think it's very hypocritical of the OP to have reported the driver who would have realised he was in the wrong very quickly.

Victimless in hindsight, but far more risky to do. A bigger vehicle with blind spots and slower to accelerate means a crash is more likely and probably would be more severe.

It was hypocritical to make the report, doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do however.

seamus wrote: »

Basically this is no different to you being the car at the front of the queue, deciding it's OK to run the lights because the ped lights are green, then reporting the guy behind you because he followed you.

Basically it's totally different!Bike= Endangering nobody, improving traffic flow- it's a win-win. Car breaking light= extreme danger, even proceeding with as much caution as you can manage (not to mention illegal)

seamus

MrCreosote wrote: »

Basically it's totally different!Bike= Endangering nobody, improving traffic flow- it's a win-win. Car breaking light= extreme danger, even proceeding with as much caution as you can manage (not to mention illegal)

If a bike can break a red light while "endangering nobody", then a car can too. To think otherwise is just fooling yourself.

MrCreosote

seamus wrote: »

If a bike can break a red light while "endangering nobody", then a car can too. To think otherwise is just fooling yourself.

A bike can because it's small, and there are no blind spots. (I should say endangering only the rider). A car doesn't have these benefits and it is of course illegal for a car to break the lights unlike a bike or pedestrian.