male dairy calves

SCRUB

Just wanted to get first hand knowledge of what happens to them.

I think back to a Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall documentary about animal welfare and that we should be eating veal as the alternative is they are killed right away.

Wanted to know if it is as black and white as it sounds or what the practice here in Ireland is ???

Timmaay

Don't worry, Ireland isn't Newzealand! They are all reared as adults for the factory at about 2years, usually by the beef farmers in Ireland, and alot on primarily grass so are outside most of their life, and from a CO2/energy point of view its one of the greenest forms of producing beef.

ootbitb

Nice pun there...black and white:)

Think some are exported to Holland for veal but majority are bucket reared by farmers for killing at 18 months plus.

SCRUB

the pun was not intended but wish it had of been now

@[Timmaaay]
I assume there is no law around this and it really is left up to each farmer ?

Timmaay

No law needed, it makes far more economic sense to grow them to adults. Even if it didn't make sense (Like it doesn't in New Zealand!), I couldn't really see there being a law in Ireland preventing it, unless we get a government that is extremely pro animal welfare etc.

bb12

interesting that you bring this up...i was arguing with someone about this recently and was surprised to find out that quite a lot of calves are exported for the veal industry in europe. i knew we didn't have a white meat veal industry here as such but it's a pity to see irish calves being exported for this purpose elsewhere

http://www.bordbia.ie/industryservices/information/alerts/Pages/Majorfallinliveexportsduringfirsthalfof2012.aspx?year=2012&wk=29

not so many this year but quite a lot up until now.

Timmaay

100,000 live cattle exported out of the 6.5million population isn't really that big a share 2bh.

SCRUB

Timmayy can you further explain the economic's of the situation with us and Nz ?

Gather that we rear them and slaughter them (doesnt matter that its a dairy cow?) or export them as veal ... and why is it that NZ doesnt follow the same pattern ??

Dont be daft

The economics of it are fairly simple.

You can kill the calf and pay the knackery €20 to take him away and dispose of him or you can sell him for around €100 at 2 weeks old.

So if you take an averaged sized dairy herd of 100 cows and half are males the farmer has an option of a €1,000 knackery bill or a cheque from the mart for €5,000.

So you see legislation isnt really needed at all.

The difference between here and New Zealand is that the Kiwi farmers arent paid subsidies and in return the Gov. there has little or no influence in how their farms are run.
Therefore the only thing that matters is the bottom line and naturally the bi-product that the male calf is gets the chop.

Make your own mind up which system is better. But it seems to be lost on people outside farming that one thing EU subsidies ensure is excellent animal welfare.

dzer2

Veal industry here kills roughly 100 head a week but again most are exported. The way the system works is the veal man buys the calves and finishes them. there is a small profit to be made but it is all in having big numbers.

Little jimmy

They are the absolute dregs of the bovine society and it is a shame that more aren't exported as they help that twisted megalomaniac who controls the Irish beef industry keep a ceiling on the price of beef. I think a lot of people that reared them in the spring of 2011 will have learnt their lesson now that they realise that Holstein bulls don't grade well, kill out well, or convert feed efficiently and hopefully next spring they will be exported

Tipp Man

In some ways its surprising there isn't a veal industry in Ireland

Veal is absolutely beautiful dish

Farmer Pudsey

SCRUB wrote: »

Timmayy can you further explain the economic's of the situation with us and Nz ?

Gather that we rear them and slaughter them (doesnt matter that its a dairy cow?) or export them as veal ... and why is it that NZ doesnt follow the same pattern ??

It is really down to all Irish farmers should be given a cource in Profit and Loss myself included.

jerdee

Latest at work is 575 bulls avg weight 500 and 4000 sheep average 40kgs. A month to Libya starting in jan 13 .looking to fix ships as we speak. Limited number of carriers this side of the world . Hopefully it will take a lot of fr out of system .

rancher

jerdee wrote: »

Latest at work is 575 bulls avg weight 500 and 4000 sheep average 40kgs. A month to Libya starting in jan 13 .looking to fix ships as we speak. Limited number of carriers this side of the world . Hopefully it will take a lot of fr out of system .

At what price though, word is that prices are poor especially sheep

Dont be daft

Tipp Man wrote: »

In some ways its surprising there isn't a veal industry in Ireland

Veal is absolutely beautiful dish

I think there's a veal scheme being run by Dawn, maybe Kepak. One of the bigger factories anyway. Its a niche market that no Irish processors seem to have cracked.
It would be such a good spin off for Irish farming if some of the Irish producers did start to develope a dominant Irish veal industry.

Some lads have remarked that all friesan bulls should be fired on a boat to the Netherlands and forgotten about.
If those calves were all finished as veal here in Ireland think of the amount of revenue it would generate, not just for the economy but also the farmers.

Like or not we are shipping away a product in its rawest form and the Dutch are tagging on the premium mark up.

mf240

Dont be daft wrote: »

I think there's a veal scheme being run by Dawn, maybe Kepak. One of the bigger factories anyway. Its a niche market that no Irish processors seem to have cracked.
It would be such a good spin off for Irish farming if some of the Irish producers did start to develope a dominant Irish veal industry.

Some lads have remarked that all friesan bulls should be fired on a boat to the Netherlands and forgotten about.
If those calves were all finished as veal here in Ireland think of the amount of revenue it would generate, not just for the economy but also the farmers.

Like or not we are shipping away a product in its rawest form and the Dutch are tagging on the premium mark up.

Good point we should be adding as much value to all our products before we ship them out of the country.

blue5000

mf240 wrote: »

Good point we should be adding as much value to all our products before we ship them out of the country.

So that above mentioned megalomaniac (excuse the spelling) can get even more wealthy?

Heard during the week that 6 jersey x bulls were sent home from one of his factories this week.

mf240

blue5000 wrote: »

So that above mentioned megalomaniac (excuse the spelling) can get even more wealthy?

Heard during the week that 6 jersey x bulls were sent home from one of his factories this week.

I suppose yer right but If we were seeling calves for veal why not ship the veal instead and keeps the jobs in the country.


As for the jerseys they must of been very bad to have been sent away

They are a joke of an animal though, how anybody milking a herd of them can drag themselves out of bed in the morning is beyond me.

Timmaay

Forgive my ignorance, but what is required to produce veal meat? Do the calves need to be fattened up? What age are they killed at?

dzer2

Timmaay wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance, but what is required to produce veal meat? Do the calves need to be fattened up? What age are they killed at?

Yeah they are feed cereal meal and either straw or maize silage for up to a year until they reach about 450kg they have to be killed before they are 1 year old.

Farmer Pudsey

Dont be daft wrote: »

I think there's a veal scheme being run by Dawn, maybe Kepak. One of the bigger factories anyway. Its a niche market that no Irish processors seem to have cracked.
It would be such a good spin off for Irish farming if some of the Irish producers did start to develope a dominant Irish veal industry.

Some lads have remarked that all friesan bulls should be fired on a boat to the Netherlands and forgotten about.
If those calves were all finished as veal here in Ireland think of the amount of revenue it would generate, not just for the economy but also the farmers.

Like or not we are shipping away a product in its rawest form and the Dutch are tagging on the premium mark up.

Can never see it happening in Ireland for a number of reasons first for it to suceed the factories would need to give contracts not shortterm one for the next batch but rather one's for 2-3 years. Anybody going doing it would have to invest money in converting shed and puting in some sort of automated feeding system. It is a capital intensive system which if you invested in and after a year or so the factories started to act the mick you would go broke. See the way the pig factories treat there producers.

Also there is a different between revenue and Profit

mf240 wrote: »

I suppose yer right but If we were seeling calves for veal why not ship the veal instead and keeps the jobs in the country.


As for the jerseys they must of been very bad to have been sent away

They are a joke of an animal though, how anybody milking a herd of them can drag themselves out of bed in the morning is beyond me.

I would have no problem looking at them or draging myself out of bed if I was making money out of them. Bull calves are only a byproduct of the dairy system

dzer2

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Can never see it happening in Ireland for a number of reasons first for it to suceed the factories would need to give contracts not shortterm one for the next batch but rather one's for 2-3 years. Anybody going doing it would have to invest money in converting shed and puting in some sort of automated feeding system. It is a capital intensive system which if you invested in and after a year or so the factories started to act the mick you would go broke. See the way the pig factories treat there producers.

Also there is a different between revenue and Profit

They do give a contract. the difference with this to the pig industry is that if the factory acts for maggot you can keep the bulls on and send them in to the ordinary beef system:D And if you have really good ones you can take them to the mart:D






I would have no problem looking at them or draging myself out of bed if I was making money out of them. Bull calves are only a byproduct of the dairy system

These dont fatten that well so Just shoot them

Muckit

Dont be daft wrote: »

I think there's a veal scheme being run by Dawn, maybe Kepak. One of the bigger factories anyway.

I seen a tractor trailer load of them going into kepak in Athleague.

Timmaay

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Bull calves are only a byproduct of the dairy system

Ultimately this is true though, surely some of the reason they have had value now is that dairyfarmers who are limited by quota, but not by land have held onto them, despite it hardly worth while (myself included!). Come the end of quotas will the situation change? Will the likes of British fr and Holstein bull calves always have some value here, or could we end up down the "bobby truck" nz route?

funny man

Just look up the road in NI. they were shooting their bull calves two years ago. now they are sent to veal units.

as for jerseys i've never milked them so i havn't your experience mf240. I have over 70 jersey crossbreds to bull next spring. all bred of a High yielding PBR HO/Fr herd, i looking forward to getting them in.

mf240

funny man wrote: »

Just look up the road in NI. they were shooting their bull calves two years ago. now they are sent to veal units.

as for jerseys i've never milked them so i havn't your experience mf240. I have over 70 jersey crossbreds to bull next spring. all bred of a High yielding PBR HO/Fr herd, i looking forward to getting them in.

Have milked jerseys for others, but only ever had black and white cows here on my own patch.

The heifers you describe should be a different ball game as they will be getting lots of size and milk from their mothers and hopefully the solids from daddy.

Will you cross them back to friesan/ho or a third breed?

funny man

once to Jersey and then Ho/Fr all the way!

Dont be daft

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Can never see it happening in Ireland for a number of reasons first for it to suceed the factories would need to give contracts not shortterm one for the next batch but rather one's for 2-3 years. Anybody going doing it would have to invest money in converting shed and puting in some sort of automated feeding system. It is a capital intensive system which if you invested in and after a year or so the factories started to act the mick you would go broke. See the way the pig factories treat there producers.

Also there is a different between revenue and Profit

Just to develope on this. If an 8 month veal system was being operated then the capital investment would possibly be minimal.

Just thinking that the majority of suckler farmers around me have empty sheds for 8 months of the year.
If you take a Feb/March born calf, he could be sent to a suckler farm and raised and finished in the sheds before the sheds are needed again in October/November.
As for automated feed systems once the calfs are reared and off milk replacer its concentrates and straw, so if a diet feeder is already in place your half way there.

The flaws come when you have a year like the one we just had, and you need your shed early and of course your very open to concentrates flucuation.
Like you said, the pig model is a good comparison to make if you want to see the dangers of concentrates prices and processors acting the mickey.

But I've always thought there was potential here.

lakill Farm

i bought a few jersey x in april 2011 as 10day olds. got them for the nephew. Sold them in October and they left €203 profit. I sold AAX heifers and tight did i get that profit out of them.

Some farmers reckon unless you have all BB char or Lim breeds your wasting your time. But its like all it depends on your set up and what you want. I agree that if your suckler you need to be in to the commerial BB,char and Lim. But buying as suck calves where would you source 20 or 30 char or BB calves and what money would you give for them?

ootbitb

lakill Farm wrote: »

i bought a few jersey x in april 2011 as 10day olds. got them for the nephew. Sold them in October and they left €203 profit. I sold AAX heifers and tight did i get that profit out of them.

Some farmers reckon unless you have all BB char or Lim breeds your wasting your time. But its like all it depends on your set up and what you want. I agree that if your suckler you need to be in to the commerial BB,char and Lim. But buying as suck calves where would you source 20 or 30 char or BB calves and what money would you give for them?

nice going, what sex were they and weight when sold?

bbam

Of course the talk here is about Rose Veal rather than veal in the true sense.
I'm not sure that true veal production is even allowed here, I heard some time ago it was banned for animal welfare reasons.

freedominacup

Heard yesterday that a factory related farm around this area is buying B&W calves by the hundred. €110 max.

dzer2

freedominacup wrote: »

Heard yesterday that a factory related farm around this area is buying B&W calves by the hundred. €110 max.

Where is this area?

freedominacup

dzer2 wrote: »

Where is this area?

Waterford

TossL1916

mf240 wrote: »

jerseys

They are a joke of an animal though, how anybody milking a herd of them can drag themselves out of bed in the morning is beyond me.

Would you like to elaborate on that point???

mf240

TossL1916 wrote: »

Would you like to elaborate on that point???

Which bit are you struggling with?

freedominacup

mf240 wrote: »

Which bit are you struggling with?

:D

Now, now play nice.

TossL1916

what reasons are you givin for callin them a joke? fare enough there pretty useless at producing beef, but after that your argument is what exactly?
and as someone already pointed out, although you,ll get less for em in the mart, you paid less in the first place to buy em in the first place.

mf240

blue5000 wrote: »

Heard during the week that 6 jersey x bulls were sent home from one of his factories this week.

:rolleyes:

TossL1916

they are built for milk solids, fertility and hardiness.... not for beef, just in case ya didnt know

mf240

they are not all that when it comes to milk either.

TossL1916

maybe not on there own but when crossed with a Friesan they certainly are

mf240

funny man wrote: »

Just look up the road in NI. they were shooting their bull calves two years ago. now they are sent to veal units.

as for jerseys i've never milked them so i havn't your experience mf240. I have over 70 jersey crossbreds to bull next spring. all bred of a High yielding PBR HO/Fr herd, i looking forward to getting them in.

mf240 wrote: »

Have milked jerseys for others, but only ever had black and white cows here on my own patch.

The heifers you describe should be a different ball game as they will be getting lots of size and milk from their mothers and hopefully the solids from daddy.

Will you cross them back to friesan/ho or a third breed?

Looks like we agree with each other after all tossl1916

20silkcut

I bought two br Friesan weanling bulls a few weeks ago. They were January born same as the rest of my herd. They are about 3 inches smaller but 3 inches wider than the rest. They are mad feckers no fear of the fence trying to ride everything that moves. Fr/ho are fierce tame by comparison.

TossL1916

mf240 wrote: »

Looks like we agree with each other after all tossl1916

ah fare play, we,re both thinkin along the same lines after all, i think milking pedigree animals is a bit ridiculous in general considering the benefits that come from hybrid vigour.

delaval

Reason to milk Jessey X .................We got 49.5c/litre for Oct..............50.8 for Nov and they came into the cubicle shed for the first time last Friday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mf240

delaval wrote: »

Reason to milk Jessey X .................We got 49.5c/litre for Oct..............50.8 for Nov and they came into the cubicle shed for the first time last Friday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many litres per day were they averaging in nov?

How much jersey blood is in them?

mahoney_j

Fair enough with your excellent milk price,But how much did they produce per day and how much meal did they get.They are anextremely limited ainmal no matter what way you want to dress it up.The only advantage they have over a pure freisan or hol freisan is there higher solids.They wont produce high volumes of milk will have a worthless bull calk are poor converters of conc to milk and have a poor cull value.I have a herd of 90% hol freisan cows and fertility is excellent and this yeat they have produced just over 7500 ltrs at 3.55 prot and 4.01 fat on just under a tonne of meal.In nov for instance they averaged 13.5 ltrs at 3.90 prot and 4.78 fat.ID HAVE Them any day over a miserable looking worthless runt of a jersey!nov milk price 40.9 cent

delaval

About 60% of our herd is xbred. We cross all bw with jr and vice vesa. In Nov they averaged 12.5 litres in year 305 days 5150 or 415 kgms. We were feeding 3kg 12% ration 3kg silage (bales) about 7kg grass. Stocked at 3/ha 1245 kgms/ha. We will have fed 650 kg ration in the year.Our hred would also be about 10% autum calving, usually carry over cows and sorry to say mostly bw.
You are correct about concentrate conversion.............thats why we have them

mahoney_j

Yes but stocked at 3 cows/he you will have to fill a feed shortage at times of the year and if so al that will happen a jersey is the change in colour of what comes out her rear end.Im not running down for a minute what your at but i really dont think a jersey has any place in a cow herd in this country.The ebi system provides ample choice to stay with the pure freisan or hol freisan.Why cant the likes of jackie kennedy use their own brain and not just copy what is going on in new zealand and try and force feed it on us???.Irelan aint new zealand nd is a long long way away from the kiwi dairy industry.Herd size is much bigger out there and jerseys can be somewhat justified.I have a brother working in the dairy industry out there and from what i can gather from him some of the more progrssive farmers out there are now bringing in american ,Canadian and dutch holstein straws to put on there jerseys.They are getting tierd of milking hundereds of jerseys and jer croses who milk very little for about two thirds of the year.Now they will milk less cows produce more milk and higher volumes of solids with no change in fertility.Irelands ideal cow is a 60.40 or 70 .30 hol freisan british freisan cross.Much better ainmal than any jersey cross for ireland