End of IE? EU Commission pushing rail "unbundling"

CIE

European Voice (sub)

In the coming weeks, the European Commission is set to propose an overhaul of the EU's rail-market rules, which will include a requirement for train operators to be separated from track infrastructure managers.

In so doing, the Commission is picking a fight with some very powerful interests.

Over recent months, German rail giant Deutsche Bahn, which owns and manages the infrastructure as well as running the trains, has been lobbying furiously against compulsory separation – known in industry circles as “unbundling”. Its French counterpart, SNCF, despite being separated from track infrastructure manager RFF since 1997, is taking the same confrontational line. ...

Despite pressure to take unbundling out of the reform proposals, the Commission is determined to include it. ...

The current government in Dublin is extremely pro-EU, even more so than Fianna Fáil. If this goes through fast, it could mean that IE becomes an infrastructure-only concern with other concerns doing the actual operations, which could become interesting...or perhaps IE is totally gone with different concerns handing respective infrastructure and operation matters...

Judgement Day

This is Ireland and CIE/IE - no doubt a derogation from any ruling will be sought.

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

This is Ireland and CIE/IE - no doubt a derogation from any ruling will be sought.

This may not work this time round if the indications from Kildare Street are to be taken as fact. The ironic thing is that the network physically can't take much more traffic from any prospective operator unless a significant expansion of the network is undertaken to allow for additional track capacity for new operators or flows.

Grandeeod

Judgement Day wrote: »

This is Ireland and CIE/IE - no doubt a derogation from any ruling will be sought.

They've run out of derogations. It will happen this time. It has to and only then will we see if the operations side of IE has the capability to make money.

LivelineDipso

Fingers crossed!

Cookie_Monster

Grandeeod wrote: »

They've run out of derogations. It will happen this time.

no it won't, like most of the EU rulings we'll ignore it and quietly pay the fines so they can avoid dealing with the unions and so forth

Captain Chaos

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no it won't, like most of the EU rulings we'll ignore it and quietly pay the fines so they can avoid dealing with the unions

And then put the fares up again next year to cover the increase in "running costs".

CIE

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

No it won't; like most of the EU rulings we'll ignore it and quietly pay the fines so they can avoid dealing with the unions and so forth

Not the same atmosphere, what with the troika dictating Ireland's economy and all. Remember the Working Time Directive, and how the opt-outs were legislated away in Brussels? That was pre-troika, too. The Commission always gets its way.

Stonewolf

While this is a good thing in the Irish context as lack of a derogation would prompt a breakup or reorganisation of IE (to what extent though is a different matter) it's not all rosy.

Separation of infrastructure and operation is ONE way of managing a railway, it's not the only way. One very successful counterexample is the US. My question is this, how far reaching is the ruling, if (hypothetically) Ireland had a private railway, separate from IE which operated as part of a mining or other industrial concern transporting bulk goods from origin to port would this directive affect it also?

One assumes the eurocrats* have thought this through but it's worth pointing out that a) it's not a magic bullet and b) the structure and control of rail infrastructure and operations is a very complex matter that is easy to get catastrophically wrong.

* I'm a federalist, but this doesn't prevent me (rather indeed it requires me) seeing the flaws in the European system

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

Not the same atmosphere, what with the troika dictating Ireland's economy and all. Remember the Working Time Directive, and how the opt-outs were legislated away in Brussels? That was pre-troika, too. The Commission always gets its way.

And the way Bus Eireann get around this is to have services leaving busaras and other termini very late because the scheduled drivers are taking their breaks late due to being late into the terminus because the company have been economical with the timings on many of their timetables and have only allowed the minimum time for drivers to take their break and get back on the road!

Sligo Quay

Judgement Day wrote: »

no doubt a derogation from any ruling will be sought.

It maybe sought, no douth, but thats all, they have run out of opitions, the game is up, it will happen this time, the game for playing for time is past, that is now past tents, Celtic Tiger is dead, barrel is dry, the black hole finally has a bottom, no aces left in the deck, reality has arrived.

corktina

but will anyone take it on? Is there a lot of scope there for development?

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

but will anyone take it on? Is there a lot of scope there for development?

will the Banteer/Newmarket branch ever reopen as a railway.....:D

LivelineDipso

No more priest-ridden reopenings.

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

will the Banteer/Newmarket branch ever reopen as a railway.....:D

only if I can find some authentic Motive Power

popebenny16

fine, the track and all that goes to CIE (isnt it with them anyway?) and IE as a seperate state company runs the services on CIE's track.

isnt that how this will end up?

Grandeeod

popebenny16 wrote: »

fine, the track and all that goes to CIE (isnt it with them anyway?) and IE as a seperate state company runs the services on CIE's track.

isnt that how this will end up?

Yes. Not ideal. But it should finally let us see how the figures stack up on the operations side. Without infrastructure around IEs neck, can they make money just running a service?

dowlingm

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/directive-91440-does-not-require-institutional-separation.html

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

only if I can find some authentic Motive Power

It's down in Carrick-on-Suir and they even have a new engine for it.

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

It's down in Carrick-on-Suir and they even have a new engine for it.

prizing it off them would be the hard bit...would it fit in my garage?

CIE

foggy_lad wrote: »

And the way Bus Eireann get around this is to have services leaving busaras and other termini very late because the scheduled drivers are taking their breaks late due to being late into the terminus because the company have been economical with the timings on many of their timetables and have only allowed the minimum time for drivers to take their break and get back on the road!

Interesting anecdote. What's your proof?

murphaph

Interesting times ahead (hopefully).

Around these parts (Berlin) DB have recently handed over operations of Regional Train routes 2 and 4, having lost the contracts to the ODEG (East German Railway Company). The double deck stock the ODEG ordered for the operations were not delivered in time and so they have leased some Austrian stock and some cool old Euro-Express owned compartment coaches with an ODEG sticker on them-was very surprised by that train on Monday morning as it pulled in to my interchange station on the way to work!

I'd dearly love to see IE reduced to an infrastructure company, with real customer focused operators running the services.

CIE

EU plans threaten to break up Deutsche Bahn – The Local

EU Transport Commissioner Siim Kallas is to unveil a raft of new measures in January that will radically open Europe's rail markets and seriously affect Deutsche Bahn's business, Die Welt newspaper reported on Monday.

Kallas wants to turn Europe into a single large network, abolishing previous monopoly structures.

In the proposal, quoted in the paper, Kallas wrote that the aim was to prevent "conflicts of interest" within network operators, and abolish "the potential for cross-financing that occurs in integrated structures." He believes the move will foster greater efficiency and save European taxpayers €23 billion. ...

Deutsche Bahn CEO Rüdiger Grube told Die Welt that resisting Kallas' plans is one of his top priorities. ...

Nothing out of CIE yet. Maybe they welcome this?

murphaph

In fairness to the Russians, when they controlled the Eastern Bloc, one of their priorities within the comecon countries was standardised signalling and infrastructure, so trains could run easily between the various states.

Europe is a small place. There really is no room for nationalism or small minds when it comes to transport links, if Europe is to compete with the world's major economies.

dowlingm

The Commissioner can't impose that unilaterally - he must feel confident the Council will pass the Fourth Rail Package even if the French and others must be getting a bit queasy given how DB got access to the Chunnel and Eurostar had the cheek to pick Siemens over Alstom - not how the cozy carveup is supposed to go down!
More coverage:
http://www.railwaybulletin.com/2012/11/german-transport-minister-fourth-rail-package-has-highest-priority
http://www.europolitics.info/sectorial-policies/full-liberalisation-of-rail-in-2018-end-of-holding-companies-in-2019-art345922-46.html

CIE

murphaph wrote: »

In fairness to the Russians, when they controlled the Eastern Bloc, one of their priorities within the comecon countries was standardised signalling and infrastructure, so trains could run easily between the various states.

Europe is a small place. There really is no room for nationalism or small minds when it comes to transport links, if Europe is to compete with the world's major economies.

That's very imperialistic language.

I'm all for transport links being easy for the end user, but when the apparent setup of same (by a central authority?) serves the ambitions of a certain elite (especially when that elite is pushing it), then something is fishy.

dowlingm wrote: »

The Commissioner can't impose that unilaterally - he must feel confident the Council will pass the Fourth Rail Package even if the French and others must be getting a bit queasy given how DB got access to the Chunnel and Eurostar had the cheek to pick Siemens over Alstom - not how the cozy carveup is supposed to go down

You must think the EU is democratic or something. It was set up to benefit just one country in the Union, and that country is not France, or Britain; it certainly is absolutely not Ireland. The Commission has imposed its will unilaterally in just about all matters, either way.

I'm not focussing on that aspect, though. I'm focussing on the ramifications for Ireland.

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

Interesting anecdote. What's your proof?

Daily announcements in busarse and Galway that buses to/from Dublin are boarding late due to late arrival of services. Two off peak journeys to and from Letterkenny last Saturday which were both late(25 minutes late into letterkenny and 15minutes late to the airport) despite having no traffic or bad weather to contend with.

CIE

foggy_lad wrote: »

Daily announcements in busarse and Galway that buses to/from Dublin are boarding late due to late arrival of services. Two off peak journeys to and from Letterkenny last Saturday which were both late (25 minutes late into letterkenny and 15 minutes late to the airport) despite having no traffic or bad weather to contend with

And this proves what? other than you bringing an utterly off-topic matter to this thread, that is.

dowlingm

Latest from the European Court:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/policy-legislation/single-view/view/european-court-of-justice-rules-on-vertical-separation.html

Hungerford

Worth mentioning that its now just 15 days until Iarnrod Eireann's derogation from EU Open Access directives runs out.

Hilly Bill

dowlingm wrote: »

Latest from the European Court:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/policy-legislation/single-view/view/european-court-of-justice-rules-on-vertical-separation.html

The split is happening next month.

Cookie_Monster

I wonder might the new colours for the 071 have something to do with this, with certain locos going to be allocated to the infrastructure side of things?

The_Wanderer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I wonder might the new colours for the 071 have something to do with this, with certain locos going to be allocated to the infrastructure side of things?

Like the shades of BR Departmental Grey?


33109 Exeter St Davids 28.12.91 by jonf45, on Flickr

dowlingm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I wonder might the new colours for the 071 have something to do with this, with certain locos going to be allocated to the infrastructure side of things?

That would be IE all right: paint the ones hauling the ballast and leave the crusty ones to visit the customers at Tara Mines and Ballina