Patrick Finucane

TOMASJ

Regarding the latest Pat Finucane "review"
Will the british ever own up to the dirty deeds and murders that they were responsible for in the North and South of this Country, during the so called troubles,
Or will we just keep on getting inquiries every few years with a bit more info about their control and involvement with unionist terrorists until those "in high places" who were responsible are dead and unable to be prosecuted,

GRMA

They agreed to do a pubic inquiry over a decade ago.

guttenberg

Apologies K-9, didn't look at the dates of the post I was responding to!

TOMASJ wrote: »

Regarding the latest Pat Finucane "review"
Will the british ever own up to the dirty deeds and murders that they were responsible for in the North and South of this Country, during the so called troubles,
Or will we just keep on getting inquiries every few years with a bit more info about their control and involvement with unionist terrorists until those "in high places" who were responsible are dead and unable to be prosecuted,

Do we really need to open that can of worms? After the Saville Inquiry(bloody Sunday not the Jimmy one), the cost and length of that has definitely put the UK Govt. off holding many more. Plus, I think it's better for everyone in NI if they can find a way to deal with everything thats happened and leave it in the past. Both sides of the divide were involved in many horrible acts over the years, and nobody can move on if everyone focuses on the whataboutery of yesteryear.

gurramok

guttenberg wrote: »

Both sides of the divide were involved in many horrible acts over the years, and nobody can move on if everyone focuses on the whataboutery of yesteryear.

Define both sides. Do you include the role of the security forces in your assessment?

guttenberg

gurramok wrote: »

Define both sides. Do you include the role of the security forces in your assessment?

Yes. If you were to focus on the role of the security forces throughout the troubles, where could you draw the line? just acts carried out by soldiers/RUC? informers? any incident whereby some intel about the victim may have been given by security agents? You could easily offend someone by only focusing on some cases and not others. I know it's a rather simplistic view, but you can't truly move on if you dwell too much on the past. For something that happened within 15-20 minutes, it took the British Govt. 12 years and £195 million to investigate Bloody Sunday. I doubt we will ever see an inquiry of its magnitude again, so how else can the role of the security forces be satisfactorily dealt with?

maccored

Im glad these things are eventually coming out - though it pisses me of how many people over the years were branded as liars by the media and british government for stating such collusion existed.

maccored

guttenberg wrote: »

throughout the troubles

tht word 'troubles' also bugs the crap out of me. It was a lot more than a bit of trouble.

TOMASJ

guttenberg wrote: »

Yes. If you were to focus on the role of the security forces throughout the troubles, where could you draw the line? just acts carried out by soldiers/RUC? informers? any incident whereby some intel about the victim may have been given by security agents? You could easily offend someone by only focusing on some cases and not others. I know it's a rather simplistic view, but you can't truly move on if you dwell too much on the past. For something that happened within 15-20 minutes, it took the British Govt. 12 years and £195 million to investigate Bloody Sunday. I doubt we will ever see an inquiry of its magnitude again, so how else can the role of the security forces be satisfactorily dealt with?

If the british gov had owned up to the murders carried out by their soldiers on bloody Sunday and numerous other incidents,
The cost of these inquiries would not have spiraled out of control,
As it is the british est will go to any lengths or any price to cover their terrorist exploits,
hopefully some day soon "before all the thugs involved" are all deceased, we will get to the truth denied to the nationalist people in the north for decades,
Then we may be able to move on.

Paddy De Plasterer

maccored wrote: »

tht word 'troubles' also bugs the crap out of me. It was a lot more than a bit of trouble.

troubles - just like the Emergency here during WW2 - in middle of most evil regime with Hitler and his cronies, who only for Churchill would have ruined the world.

charlemont

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

troubles - just like the Emergency here during WW2 - in middle of most evil regime with Hitler and his cronies, who only for Churchill Stalin would have ruined the world.

..

TOMASJ

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

troubles - just like the Emergency here during WW2 - in middle of most evil regime with Hitler and his cronies, who only for Churchill would have ruined the world.

You need to brush up on your WW2 history Paddy De Plasterer if you had said only for... Stalin (like him or not) would have ruined the world..
that would have been closer to the mark.

Paddy De Plasterer

Was Finucane involved with IRA apart from defending some of them legally, as Sean O Callaghan suggests . We have a right to know.

TOMASJ

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

Was Finucane involved with IRA apart from defending some of them legally, as Sean O Callaghan suggests . We have a right to know.

Obviously you did not read the De Silva report,

or hear David Camron apologies in the house of commons a week ago

guttenberg

Would it be too rude for me to ask GRMA, but which of the republican groupings would you feel more of an affinity to regarding policy and beliefs?

junder

GRMA wrote: »

British people should all be ashamed that their govt and state conspired to murder a human rights lawyer

Human rights lawyer my arse. Provie lawyer and provie member

Tiocfaidh Armani

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

Was Finucane involved with IRA apart from defending some of them legally, as Sean O Callaghan suggests . We have a right to know.

And he's the virtue of truth that clown.

guttenberg

Junder, one of the great aspects of a democracy is everyone is entitled to a fair trial.:) Whether he was or was not a paramilitary(I doubt he was), doesn't mean he was fair game to be killed because of who he represented in the Court room!

OCorcrain

junder wrote: »

Human rights lawyer my arse. Provie lawyer and provie member

Always out with the really intelligent comments as usual.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Human rights lawyer my arse. Provie lawyer and provie member

Trying to justify what happened to him by saying that about a man who can't defend himself because your lot (British security forces) had him killed?


Loyalist hatred for this man is vile, they call him Patrick "Fork" because he was brutally murdered with one in his hand. (he was having lunch with his wife and young children)

Although I'm glad to see you havent called him such junder

GRMA

guttenberg wrote: »

Would it be too rude for me to ask GRMA, but which of the republican groupings would you feel more of an affinity to regarding policy and beliefs?

Not rude at all... A few years ago I would have said Sinn Féin but these days I'm not a firm supporter of them.

So I guess I'm independent but I lean towards Sinn Féin. I don't support any "dissident" groups like the 32CSM, RNU etc but I have a soft spot for eirigi as they recognize that armed conflict is a dead end

Paddy De Plasterer

if O Callaghan is to be believed, Finucane was in IRA and therefore a combatant in a dirty war.

K-9

It's like Groundhog Day here in all the Republican/Loyalist/Northern Ireland threads. Address the points made, if a poster doesn't make a point and just posts tripe, don't feel like you have to respond, makes for a far more informative thread.

Godge

TOMASJ wrote: »

Regarding the latest Pat Finucane "review"
Will the british ever own up to the dirty deeds and murders that they were responsible for in the North and South of this Country, during the so called troubles,
Or will we just keep on getting inquiries every few years with a bit more info about their control and involvement with unionist terrorists until those "in high places" who were responsible are dead and unable to be prosecuted,

What dirty deeds and murders were the British responsible for in the South of this country?

Lord Mountbatten? Garda McCabe? Garda Fallon?

Paddy De Plasterer

Will Adams ever admit he was in the IRA. Will that be left to future historians and colleagues, after he has gone to Heaven ?

GRMA

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

Will Adams ever admit he was in the IRA. Will that be left to future historians and colleagues, after he has gone to Heaven ?

Why would anyone admit they were in the IRA? Unless they want to spend two years in jail?

junder

guttenberg wrote: »

Junder, one of the great aspects of a democracy is everyone is entitled to a fair trial.:) Whether he was or was not a paramilitary(I doubt he was), doesn't mean he was fair game to be killed because of who he represented in the Court room!

Never said be deserved to be killed, only that he was not a saint

TOMASJ

Godge wrote: »

What dirty deeds and murders were the British responsible for in the South of this country?

Lord Mountbatten? Garda McCabe? Garda Fallon?

We could start with the Dublin/Monaghan Bombings when they murdered 33 civilians

junder

TOMASJ wrote: »

We could start with the Dublin/Monaghan Bombings when they murdered 33 civilians

And while we are at it lets look at the role a certain Louth TD and northern irelands deputy first minister had during the troubles.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Trying to justify what happened to him by saying that about a man who can't defend himself because your lot (British security forces) had him killed?


Loyalist hatred for this man is vile, they call him Patrick "Fork" because he was brutally murdered with one in his hand. (he was having lunch with his wife and young children)

Although I'm glad to see you havent called him such junder

I don't revel in murder, as for my lot, bit of a generlization there,

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Never said be deserved to be killed, only that he was not a saint

Where is your evidence?

Pat Finucane was a human rights lawyer and activist who defended the rights of people accused of things by the British state - he won many victories and exposed the hypocrisy of the British and Unionist mantra of "the rule of law" and for defending peoples rights under the British legal system he was murdered by that very same state

and you call him a provo

junder

GRMA wrote: »

Where is your evidence?

Pat Finucane was a human rights lawyer and activist who defended the rights of people accused of things by the British state - he won many victories and exposed the hypocrisy of the British and Unionist mantra of "the rule of law" and for defending peoples rights under the British legal system he was murdered by that very same state

and you call him a provo

Because he was

Red About Town

junder wrote: »

Because he was

Evidence?

junder

Red About Town wrote: »

Evidence?

Prove he wasn't.

Red About Town

junder wrote: »

Prove he wasn't.

You are the one making the accusation. To my knowledge he was never convicted of any PIRA (or any other illegal paramilitary) offences and there is not a shred of evidence to suggest he was involved in any.

Madam

junder wrote: »

Human rights lawyer my arse. Provie lawyer and provie member

Prove it!

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

Prove he wasn't.

Have a bit of intellectual integrity and back up your claim.

Maysa07

Patrick F represented both republicans and loyalists! fact.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Prove he wasn't.

Great glimpse into the loyalist mindset.

A nationalist gets murdered and you say prove he wasnt a provo.

southsiderosie

junder wrote: »

Human rights lawyer my arse. Provie lawyer and provie member

junder wrote: »

Because he was

junder wrote: »

Prove he wasn't.

MOD NOTE:

You claimed this man was a member of a proscribed organization, have provided nothing to back that claim, and then expect everyone else to prove your point for you? It is getting difficult not to see these kinds of posts as anything but trolling. Either engage in some kind of informed discussion, or don't engage at all.

That said,

Maysa07 wrote: »

Patrick F represented both republicans and loyalists! fact.

In this forum, if you are going to claim something is a fact, you need to provide some kind of link or evidence to back that up.

TOMASJ

junder wrote: »

And while we are at it lets look at the role a certain Louth TD and northern irelands deputy first minister had during the troubles.

Yes why not,
If you have any proof of any crimes they are responsible for (not hearsay) take it to you local psin/Garda

GRMA

southsiderosie wrote: »

MOD NOTE:

You claimed this man was a member of a proscribed organization, have provided nothing to back that claim, and then expect everyone else to prove your point for you? It is getting difficult not to see these kinds of posts as anything but trolling. Either engage in some kind of informed discussion, or don't engage at all.

That said,



In this forum, if you are going to claim something is a fact, you need to provide some kind of link or evidence to back that up.

Madden and Finucane solicitors is Finucanes firm, they continue to represent loyalists today. Finucane himself represented loyalists, his firm specialized in representing people accused of membership and political crimes etc stiil do, albeit to a lesser degree today

http://www.madden-finucane.com/english/cases/judgments/2011march31.pdf

Paddy De Plasterer

southsiderosie wrote: »

MOD NOTE:

You claimed this man was a member of a proscribed organization, have provided nothing to back that claim, and then expect everyone else to prove your point for you? It is getting difficult not to see these kinds of posts as anything but trolling. Either engage in some kind of informed discussion, or don't engage at all.

That said,



In this forum, if you are going to claim something is a fact, you need to provide some kind of link or evidence to back that up.

Have you read Sean O Callaghan's book ?

karma_

junder wrote: »

Human rights lawyer my arse. Provie lawyer and provie member

Scary to think you are a member of the security forces.

junder

karma_ wrote: »

Scary to think you are a member of the security forces.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ruthdudleyedwards/100193952/pat-finucane-was-shockingly-murdered-but-that-doesnt-make-him-a-human-rights-lawyer/

"The Prime Minister was right today to apologise unconditionally for the appalling involvement of some agents of the British state in the gruesome murder of Pat Finucane. But let’s bust the myth that Finucane was a human-rights lawyer. A human-rights lawyer is someone who disinterestedly protects people from abuse by the state or by terrorists. Pat Finucane didn’t do that. He was an IRA lawyer who worked for terrorists against the interests of justice."



http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/finucane-a-godfather-maginnis-16249660.html#ixzz2ErxU1tqP

" in the House of Lords, Lord Maginnis said: "As someone who has been fortunate to survive 10 attempts to murder me by the Provisional IRA, I find this isolated apology quite ridiculous. The reality is that the Finucane family were an IRA family and I can illustrate that by saying that, when I gave that allegation publicly and was being sued for libel, the family retracted and paid my legal expenses. So let's not fool ourselves about the godfather Finucane, who was killed."

Guess I'm not the only who doesn't buy into the myth of saint finucane

Nodin

junder wrote: »

.................. the myth of saint finucane

A blog and a unionist politician saying so do not constitute proof.

guttenberg

Looking at the author of that blog, you should take anything she says with a pince of salt. I remember when The Wind That Shakes The Barley first came out, she wrote a few mad articles about it and Ken Loach littered with mistakes, she hadn't even seen the film!

WakeUp

junder wrote: »

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ruthdudleyedwards/100193952/pat-finucane-was-shockingly-murdered-but-that-doesnt-make-him-a-human-rights-lawyer/

"The Prime Minister was right today to apologise unconditionally for the appalling involvement of some agents of the British state in the gruesome murder of Pat Finucane. But let’s bust the myth that Finucane was a human-rights lawyer. A human-rights lawyer is someone who disinterestedly protects people from abuse by the state or by terrorists. Pat Finucane didn’t do that. He was an IRA lawyer who worked for terrorists against the interests of justice."



http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/finucane-a-godfather-maginnis-16249660.html#ixzz2ErxU1tqP

" in the House of Lords, Lord Maginnis said: "As someone who has been fortunate to survive 10 attempts to murder me by the Provisional IRA, I find this isolated apology quite ridiculous. The reality is that the Finucane family were an IRA family and I can illustrate that by saying that, when I gave that allegation publicly and was being sued for libel, the family retracted and paid my legal expenses. So let's not fool ourselves about the godfather Finucane, who was killed."

Guess I'm not the only who doesn't buy into the myth of saint finucane

Bring that sh1t into a court of law with you and present it as "evidence" see how quickly you are laughed out of the place tail between your legs. The above is whats known as cognitive bias..evidence, would you please.

junder

WakeUp wrote: »

Bring that sh1t into a court of law with you and present it as "evidence" see how quickly you are laughed out of the place tail between your legs. The above is whats known as cognitive bias..evidence, would you please.

It was going to be brought to a court of law, the finucane's where going to sue lord mcgunniess when he publicly accused pat finucane of being in the ira, but for some odd reason the finucane's retracted and paid lord mcgunniess legal fees

GRMA

junder wrote: »

It was going to be brought to a court of law, the finucane's where going to sue lord mcgunniess when he publicly accused pat finucane of being in the ira, but for some odd reason the finucane's retracted and paid lord mcgunniess legal fees

Probably didnt want to waste time with the likes of him.


So where is your evidence that Pat Finucaine was in the IRA?

It looks like you are trying to justify his murder or at least mitigate it

junder

Nodin wrote: »

A blog and a unionist politician saying so do not constitute proof.

GRMA wrote: »

Probably didnt want to waste time with the likes of him.


So where is your evidence that Pat Finucaine was in the IRA?

It looks like you are trying to justify his murder or at least mitigate it

Sure they didn't want to waste time that's why they paid his
Legal fees. You would have thought this would have been a perfect opportunity to prove finucane's innocence and embarrass a prominate unionist and insure he never makes anymore allegations of finucane's membership of the ira. Instead the drop the libel charges and pay his legal fees, and in lord mcgunniess eyes vindicating his allegation, very odd, unless of course he was actually in the ira and they didn't want to face the courts and have finucane's halo publicly removed, guess we will never know

Duiske

junder wrote: »

Sure they didn't want to waste time that's why they paid his
Legal fees. You would have thought this would have been a perfect opportunity to prove finucane's innocence and embarrass a prominate unionist and insure he never makes anymore allegations of finucane's membership of the ira. Instead the drop the libel charges and pay his legal fees, and in lord mcgunniess eyes vindicating his allegation, very odd, unless of course he was actually in the ira and they didn't want to face the courts and have finucane's halo publicly removed, guess we will never know

McGinnis was being sneaky, using Parliamentary Privilege to slander someone. There was no point in the Finucane family continuing with the case because they would have lost. Once inside the houses of parliament, a member cannot be held to account for any statement they make, no matter how badly it defames somebody. A similar rule applies to TD's in the Dail, a recent example being Claire Daly's naming of a Gardai she believed to be involved in the scrubbing of penalty points. If that Garda is found to be innocent of any involvement, he has absolutely no comeback against Daly. If Daly had said the same outside the Dail, he could sue away.