Ninth day of flag protests in Northern Ireland

Thomas_I

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20686612

It´d be interesting to read some opinions from posters on here about that matter.

To me it looks quite simple insane to make such a fuss about a flag (I know it´s more than that, it´s a symbol as well).

Hannibal

Its democracy being used to create an inclusive society where you don't have a flag flying over public buildings when that flag only represents half the population. It's only a small proportion of loyalist thugs that are out demonastrating and rioting anyway.
The provincial flag of Ulster should be flown over public buildings anyway as it's the least divisive flag.

junder

Dotsey wrote: »

Its democracy being used to create an inclusive society where you don't have a flag flying over public buildings when that flag only represents half the population. It's only a small proportion of loyalist thugs that are out demonastrating and rioting anyway.
The provincial flag of Ulster should be flown over public buildings anyway as it's the least divisive flag.

Sure Sinn Fein and the sdlp are all about creating inclusive spaces, which is why they named a park in newry after an ira man involved in the kings mill massacre, one of the worst sectarian atrocities of the troubles odd that the union flag is offensive while the execution of Protestant workman is not

Nodin

junder wrote: »

Sure Sinn Fein and the sdlp are all about creating inclusive spaces, which is why they named a park in newry after an ira man involved in the kings mill massacre, one of the worst sectarian atrocities of the troubles odd that the union flag is offensive while the execution of Protestant workman is not

.....you'll find there's no proof he was involved - the weapon he was caught with was. Weapons were used from an arms dump and were not held by individuals.

junder

Dotsey wrote: »

Its democracy being used to create an inclusive society where you don't have a flag flying over public buildings when that flag only represents half the population. It's only a small proportion of loyalist thugs that are out demonastrating and rioting anyway.
The provincial flag of Ulster should be flown over public buildings anyway as it's the least divisive flag.

Nodin wrote: »

.....you'll find there's no proof he was involved - the weapon he was caught with was. Weapons were used from an arms dump and were not held by individuals.

You can argue the toss about wether or not he was involved, my community believes he was, either way he was still a member of the ira and Sinn Fein and the sdlp still voted to change a parks name to commerate him

Nonoperational

I just find it so disappointing. Maybe if I lived there I'd think differently but I thought we were beyond this.

Cookie_Monster

It's still officially part of UK so the flag can and should be flown there until it is otherwise.

southsiderosie

junder wrote: »

Sure Sinn Fein and the sdlp are all about creating inclusive spaces, which is why they named a park in newry after an ira man involved in the kings mill massacre, one of the worst sectarian atrocities of the troubles odd that the union flag is offensive while the execution of Protestant workman is not

The issue here is not about what SF or the SDLP did on a completely unrelated matter. The issue is that there is a specific subset of Northern Irish society that refuses to accept rule of law. In the nationalist community, this manifests through splinter groups that are shunned. In the unionist community, this manifests through mass protests that are egged on by DUP officials, who then plead innocent when protests inevitable turn into riots.

In addition, this isn't just about SF and the SDLP - Alliance supported the flag legislation as well. And, for the record, Alliance has flipped their party designation to Unionist in Stormont on certain key issues, so it is not like they move in lockstep with the nationalist parties.

The people out tearing up the city in the middle of the holiday shopping season are, quite frankly, idiots - shur, let's kick the economy when it's down because we don't like a decision on a flag that affects one public building in the whole province, rawr, rawr! While everyone has a right to protest in a democratic society, the attacks on Alliance constituency offices and on the PSNI are profoundly undemocratic - they are actually quite fascist. I do not understand how people who claim loyalty to the Crown can simultaneously disregard Her Majesty's laws - and attack the enforcers of those laws - when they so choose, but perhaps I should not be so naive given the North's history.

Nodin

junder wrote: »

You can argue the toss about wether or not he was involved, my community believes he was, either way he was still a member of the ira and Sinn Fein and the sdlp still voted to change a parks name to commerate him

Yep. And that justifies a rampage on reducing the number of days the flag is flown?

NIMAN

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It's still officially part of UK so the flag can and should be flown there until it is otherwise.

Even when a democratic vote says that it should not?

Chuck Stone

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It's still officially part of UK so the flag can and should be flown there until it is otherwise.

And then when the day of reunification comes it should be the Irish Tricolour and that only? What a delightfully simplistic view of the north you have.

The flag still flies on designated days. The flag's flying has been synchronized with other cities across the Irish sea in Britain.

Also, the flag now represents less than half of the people in Belfast - indeed for many it is simply a reminder of having their political and civil rights trampled on by a once dominant majority.

Those days are over.

Forever.

TOMASJ

junder wrote: »

You can argue the toss about wether or not he was involved, my community believes he was, either way he was still a member of the ira and Sinn Fein and the sdlp still voted to change a parks name to commerate him

Why did it take about 11 YEARS (this is how long ago the park was named after Raymond McCreesh)
"and this union jack flag row"
for unionists to get upset about the naming of a park in Newry, over 30 miles from Belfast,

Rhys Essien

With the outcome of the NI census, where less than 50% consider themselves to be British,those union(British) flag wavers should be told to stick their flag poles up their jumpers.

Cookie_Monster

NIMAN wrote: »

Even when a democratic vote says that it should not?

when they democratically secede from the UK then it can change.

Nodin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It's still officially part of UK so the flag can and should be flown there until it is otherwise.

The flag will still be flown there, on the same designated 15 days as everywhere else.

junder

southsiderosie wrote: »

The issue here is not about what SF or the SDLP did on a completely unrelated matter. The issue is that there is a specific subset of Northern Irish society that refuses to accept rule of law. In the nationalist community, this manifests through splinter groups that are shunned. In the unionist community, this manifests through mass protests that are egged on by DUP officials, who then plead innocent when protests inevitable turn into riots.

In addition, this isn't just about SF and the SDLP - Alliance supported the flag legislation as well. And, for the record, Alliance has flipped their party designation to Unionist in Stormont on certain key issues, so it is not like they move in lockstep with the nationalist parties.

The people out tearing up the city in the middle of the holiday shopping season are, quite frankly, idiots - shur, let's kick the economy when it's down because we don't like a decision on a flag that affects one public building in the whole province, rawr, rawr! While everyone has a right to protest in a democratic society, the attacks on Alliance constituency offices and on the PSNI are profoundly undemocratic - they are actually quite fascist. I do not understand how people who claim loyalty to the Crown can simultaneously disregard Her Majesty's laws - and attack the enforcers of those laws - when they so choose, but perhaps I should not be so naive given the North's history.

These protests have nothing to do with the dup or uup, they have been caught completely by surprise by the depth of feeling in loyalist area and are now panicking. This decision to remove the union flag is called democratic and yet every survay completed on the subject showed the majorty wanted to the flag to remain where it was. As for the economy as one trader put it, 'why the hell did the vote have to be taken two weeks before Christmas, why could'nt it wait until the new year' stil it's ironic republicans suddenly caring about the northern Irish economy, since they spent 30years trying to destroy the northern Irish economy with thier bombs, but that's ok, just don't you be blocking any roads because that's naughty. For the record I condemn the death threats and attacks on personal property and the attempt to burn a police car with a police women still inside it, buts not forget that these protests are happening the length and breadth of Northern Ireland ( some are even happening in scotland and england) and the vast majorty of them have been peaceful, and if you really think its just about the flag then you truly have no clue about the loyalist community, this has been along time coming, the flag issue is just the catalyst and its not over yet.
As for Sinn Fein and the sdlp thier attuide is exactly the point, when they say neatural enviroment, they mean the removal of everything British such as a flag or a memorial in a fire station to fire men killed in a bomb in enniskillan, but at the same time building ira moments in public spaces or renaming public parks after ira men. This sort of behaviour I expect from Sinn Fein, but the sdlp, they really are living up to the moniker of stoops. This action at city hall by the Sinn Fein and the sdlp was punitive, there was no higher purpose involved, it was just about sticking it to the unionists, which in a nut shell encapsulates the very driving force they have for a united ireland, revenge

dlofnep

Oh please, spare me the melodrama. There's more flag antics in Belfast from stark-raven loyalists than you'd see in London on St George's Day. This move ( proposed by the Alliance party ) is a step towards an inclusive society. The reality is - the Union flag does not represent everyone in the north, and this move by Belfast City Council was in line with other Government buildings. It was a democratic move, supported by a majority in the council.

The mature thing to do would be to erect the Union Flag and the Tricolour side by side, or no flags at all. But that wouldn't suit Loyalists, because they are self-centred and stubborn. They are completely indifferent to the fact that there is a population there that has been there centuries before them, who are not represented by the Union Flag. Loyalists are uneasy about the fact that the north is becoming more inclusive and is no longer an orange state. Well, pity about them. It's about time they grow up and stop acting like a bunch of whining children, who throw their toys out of the pram when things don't go their way. We are sick of them in Ireland, and the British people are equally sick of them.

This violent response, which included death threats and attempted murder should be condemned by every unionist politician in the north. There is zero excuse for it. But that's not what happened - they have excused it in an indirect way by explaining to us that they "understand the cause of the anger". There is NOTHING to understand. A democratic decision was taken, and if you ask me - it didn't go far enough. But that's another story, and I certainly won't act like a Neanderthal exploding in violence because of it.

Nodin

junder wrote: »

These protests have nothing to do with the dup or uup, they have been caught completely by surprise by the depth of feeling in loyalist area and are now panicking. This decision to remove the union flag is called democratic and yet every survay completed on the subject showed the majorty wanted to the flag to remain where it was. As for the economy as one trader put it, 'why the hell did the vote have to be taken two weeks before Christmas, why could'nt it wait until the new year' stil it's ironic republicans suddenly caring about the northern Irish economy, since they spent 30years trying to destroy the northern Irish economy with thier bombs, but that's ok, just don't you be blocking any roads because that's naughty. For the record I condemn the death threats and attacks on personal property and the attempt to burn a police car with a police women still inside it, buts not forget that these protests are happening the length and breadth of Northern Ireland ( some are even happening in scotland and england) and the vast majorty of them have been peaceful, and if you really think its just about the flag then you truly have no clue about the loyalist community, this has been along time coming, the flag issue is just the catalyst and its not over yet.
As for Sinn Fein and the sdlp thier attuide is exactly the point, when they say neatural enviroment, they mean the removal of everything British such as a flag or a memorial in a fire station to fire men killed in a bomb in enniskillan, but at the same time building ira moments in public spaces or renaming public parks after ira men. This sort of behaviour I expect from Sinn Fein, but the sdlp, they really are living up to the moniker of stoops. This action at city hall by the Sinn Fein and the sdlp was punitive, there was no higher purpose involved, it was just about sticking it to the unionists, which in a nut shell encapsulates the very driving force they have for a united ireland, revenge

...the flag has not been removed. The flag will be flown on the same 15 days as elsewhere. Is there some reason you wish it to be there 365 days a year?

LordSutch

junder wrote: »

As for Sinn Fein and the sdlp thier attuide is exactly the point, when they say neatural enviroment, they mean the removal of everything British such as a flag or a memorial in a fire station to fire men killed in a bomb in enniskillan, but at the same time building ira moments in public spaces or renaming public parks after ira men. This sort of behaviour I expect from Sinn Fein, but the sdlp, they really are living up to the moniker of stoops. This action at city hall by the Sinn Fein and the sdlp was punitive, there was no higher purpose involved, it was just about sticking it to the unionists, which in a nut shell encapsulates the very driving force they have for a united ireland, revenge

I am now curious about the fire station memorial, the IRA monuments in public spaces, and the renamimg of public parks after IRA men! I guess you are exaggerating, right? any details? Re the flag issue; One (of several compromises) I heard was to fly the Union flag all year round on the Cenotaph which is within the grounds of City hall, then to fly the Union flag over City hall on the newly designated fifteen days a year. Dunno if this is a runner, time will tell . . . .

ardmacha

This decision to remove the union flag is called democratic and yet every survay completed on the subject showed the majorty wanted to the flag to remain where it was.

Surveys conducted with impeccible methodological rigour, no doubt.
The important poll was the local government election, which produced a majority for this change.
This is democracy, something unionists only believe in when it suits them.


anyhow, on a lighter note

GRMA

DUP etc are whipping this up more to get back the seat they lost to the Alliance party.

Loyalists are making a massive deal out of it because they are ****ting themselves over the supergrass trials due to start next year - sending a clear message to the Alliance and David Ford, Justice Minister and Alliance leader about what he can expect if they go ahead and people get jailed.

Loyalist insecurity over their identity, or lack thereof, is an issue too, but the flag being taken down is only part of the reason why things are kicking off.

The Union Jack, or Butchers Apron, is a symbol of oppression for many people in the north, for obvious reasons. Sinn Féin actually voted in favour of flying the flag 15 days a year.

TEMPLAR KNIGHT

As a person who would like to see a united Ireland at some time in the future this is a welcomed small step in the right direction! However I can totally understand where the unionists are coming from if it was the other way around and the tricolour was taken down I would feel the way they do so I don't blame them. Even if I think their cause is wrong!

junder

LordSutch wrote: »

I am now curious about the fire station memorial, the IRA monuments in public spaces, and the renamimg of public parks after IRA men! I guess you are exaggerating, right? any details? Re the flag issue; One (of several compromises) I heard was to fly the Union flag all year round on the Cenotaph which is within the grounds of City hall, then to fly the Union flag over City hall on the newly designated fifteen days a year. Dunno if this is a runner, time will tell . . . .

Sure I'm exaggerating

http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/05/30/ni-fire-service-wrong-to-remove-enniiskillen-tribute/

http://newrytimes.com/2012/12/04/unionists-outraged-after-newry-play-park-renaming/

And to top it all last night a memorial to 3 Scottish soldiers executed by republicans was desecrated last night. Moreover Sinn Fein has already set it sights on renaming the royal Victoria hospital because it has the name royal in it so I won't hold my breath about the cenotaph flying the union flag all year round, in fact I think it's more likely that Sinn Fein / sdlp will try and get that removed next

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Sure I'm exaggerating

http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/05/30/ni-fire-service-wrong-to-remove-enniiskillen-tribute/

http://newrytimes.com/2012/12/04/unionists-outraged-after-newry-play-park-renaming/

And to top it all last night a memorial to 3 Scottish soldiers executed by republicans was desecrated last night. Moreover Sinn Fein has already set it sights on renaming the royal Victoria hospital because it has the name royal in it so I won't hold my breath about the cenotaph flying the union flag all year round, in fact I think it's more likely that Sinn Fein / sdlp will try and get that removed next

Why would you politicize the cenotaph? There's no need to.

Why are you, and your ilk, loyalists, so insecure? 15 days is the amount it flies at stormont and tons of places in England, even Buckingham Palace I believe. Why should it fly 365 days a year? Unionists decided to fly it 15 days a year in other councils with nothing said about it.


Why the need to plaster union jacks everywhere? Death threats, riots, violent protests, the insecurity is insane... unless of course there is more to it like I suggested earlier.

You threaten the union by crap like this. Moderate nationalists or catholics who might think the new NI is not so bad will be polarized by crap like this.

Do you not understand that for many many people the Union Jack is a sign of brutal oppression, and that having symbol neutral institutions is better?

As for things being named after IRA men, there are plenty of things named after British military figures.

GRMA

And of course vandalizing memorials is wrong... but as you know junder unfortunately loyalists engage in this carry on too


Hopefully people who do this will cop the fcuk on

Nodin

junder wrote: »

Sure I'm exaggerating

http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/05/30/ni-fire-service-wrong-to-remove-enniiskillen-tribute/

http://newrytimes.com/2012/12/04/unionists-outraged-after-newry-play-park-renaming/

And to top it all last night a memorial to 3 Scottish soldiers executed by republicans was desecrated last night. Moreover Sinn Fein has already set it sights on renaming the royal Victoria hospital because it has the name royal in it so I won't hold my breath about the cenotaph flying the union flag all year round, in fact I think it's more likely that Sinn Fein / sdlp will try and get that removed next

Would you be as good as to answer my question above...?

uberalles

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh please, spare me the melodrama. There's more flag antics in Belfast from stark-raven loyalists than you'd see in London on St George's Day. This move ( proposed by the Alliance party ) is a step towards an inclusive society. The reality is - the Union flag does not represent everyone in the north, and this move by Belfast City Council was in line with other Government buildings. It was a democratic move, supported by a majority in the council.

The mature thing to do would be to erect the Union Flag and the Tricolour side by side, or no flags at all. But that wouldn't suit Loyalists, because they are self-centred and stubborn. They are completely indifferent to the fact that there is a population there that has been there centuries before them, who are not represented by the Union Flag. Loyalists are uneasy about the fact that the north is becoming more inclusive and is no longer an orange state. Well, pity about them. It's about time they grow up and stop acting like a bunch of whining children, who throw their toys out of the pram when things don't go their way. We are sick of them in Ireland, and the British people are equally sick of them.

This violent response, which included death threats and attempted murder should be condemned by every unionist politician in the north. There is zero excuse for it. But that's not what happened - they have excused it in an indirect way by explaining to us that they "understand the cause of the anger". There is NOTHING to understand. A democratic decision was taken, and if you ask me - it didn't go far enough. But that's another story, and I certainly won't act like a Neanderthal exploding in violence because of it.

+1
The mature thing to do would be to erect the Union Flag and the Tricolour side by side, or no flags at all.

southsiderosie

junder wrote: »

These protests have nothing to do with the dup or uup, they have been caught completely by surprise by the depth of feeling in loyalist area and are now panicking.

They are panicking because they can't the genie back in the bottle that they let loose.

junder wrote: »

This decision to remove the union flag is called democratic and yet every survay completed on the subject showed the majorty wanted to the flag to remain where it was.

Do you have a link for that?

junder wrote: »

As for the economy as one trader put it, 'why the hell did the vote have to be taken two weeks before Christmas,

I think the more appropriate question here is, why are people rampaging through town centers at Christmastime?

junder wrote: »

why could'nt it wait until the new year' stil it's ironic republicans suddenly caring about the northern Irish economy, since they spent 30years trying to destroy the northern Irish economy with thier bombs, but that's ok, just don't you be blocking any roads because that's naughty.

Yes, the appropriate way to address a question about the current economic situation is to resort to shrieking about the Troubles. I'm afraid that isn't going to do the folks along Royal Avenue much good.

junder wrote: »

For the record I condemn the death threats and attacks on personal property and the attempt to burn a police car with a police women still inside it, buts

There should be no 'but' after describing attempts to burn someone alive.

junder wrote: »

not forget that these protests are happening the length and breadth of Northern Ireland ( some are even happening in scotland and england) and the vast majorty of them have been peaceful

And the ones that have not have essentially ruined the holiday season for high street retailers everywhere in the North. Well done.

junder wrote: »

and if you really think its just about the flag then you truly have no clue about the loyalist community, this has been along time coming, the flag issue is just the catalyst and its not over yet.

I know it is not about the flag - it is about a certain element of society being unable to get their way and completely disregarding rule of law. I made that clear in my original post.

junder wrote: »

As for Sinn Fein and the sdlp thier attuide is exactly the point, when they say neatural enviroment, they mean the removal of everything British such as a flag or a memorial in a fire station to fire men killed in a bomb in enniskillan, but at the same time building ira moments in public spaces or renaming public parks after ira men. This sort of behaviour I expect from Sinn Fein, but the sdlp, they really are living up to the moniker of stoops. This action at city hall by the Sinn Fein and the sdlp was punitive, there was no higher purpose involved, it was just about sticking it to the unionists, which in a nut shell encapsulates the very driving force they have for a united ireland, revenge

Would you care to address the involvement of the Alliance party?

Thomas_I

junder wrote: »

Sure I'm exaggerating

http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/05/30/ni-fire-service-wrong-to-remove-enniiskillen-tribute/

http://newrytimes.com/2012/12/04/unionists-outraged-after-newry-play-park-renaming/

And to top it all last night a memorial to 3 Scottish soldiers executed by republicans was desecrated last night. Moreover Sinn Fein has already set it sights on renaming the royal Victoria hospital because it has the name royal in it so I won't hold my breath about the cenotaph flying the union flag all year round, in fact I think it's more likely that Sinn Fein / sdlp will try and get that removed next

I´ve read the article from the newry times and even if this Provo man had any connection to that childrens play ground, it´s the worst decision the council has taken to name it after him. This is no good for the future and the growing up of a new generation in NI to raise them in an attempt to leave the past behind.

As I learned from our exchange of posts in this short time since I´m on these boards, it´s obviously that you won´t miss any occation to point out what SF has on stupidity to offer. If you´d also be that eager to point out what your community is doing in the same way, I would very much appreciate it, really.

Anyway, the examples you´ve brought up by your links and the ongoing protests this thread is about, shows that the people in NI are still on a long road to go until they reach the point where the past is left behind.

That slugger o toole website seems to be something moderate, from their outset and commitment re political debate. I haven´t browsed much on that page, just to check what kind of forum that is. At least you´ve picked something that seems to be more neutral on political matters. That´s a good point. At least to me.

Have you been on the streets too to keep the Union Jack flying or has your community given you the choice to join the protests yourself on your free will?

Thomas_I

uberalles wrote: »

+1
The mature thing to do would be to erect the Union Flag and the Tricolour side by side, or no flags at all.

You can´t have it that way because there are some rules re flags of sovereign states. As for Belfast is British territory and the building concerned is a civic one, either you´ve the Union Flag on the flagpost or the council is creating their own flag and hoist them. The Irish Tricolour alongside of the Union Flag on that building would rather lead to mistakes than doing any good.

I assume that Republicans know that Ireland is as well represented in the Union Flag by the St Patricks cross which is different to the Flag of NI. Even the Patron Saint of Ireland doesn´t make a compromise possible because Republicans wouldn´t be satisfied by having that flag flying on flagpost of the Civic Hall.

Thomas_I

dlofnep wrote: »

... The reality is - the Union flag does not represent everyone in the north, and this move by Belfast City Council was in line with other Government buildings. It was a democratic move, supported by a majority in the council. ...

The only purpose of the Union Flag is to represent the British state, not a majority or minority of a population and therefore it hasn´t to represent everyone of the people in NI. After all it´s a state symbol, even when it has been misused by some part of the people in NI for their political creed.

laoch na mona

there is a facebook page loyalists against democracy says it all really

Thomas_I

laoch na mona wrote: »

there is a facebook page loyalists against democracy says it all really

How representative and reliable is that page?

guttenberg

It's sad to see the fuss created over that IRA park name. There is a pretty big statue in Stormont of a man involved in the Larne gun smuggling yet loyalists have never viewed that as possibly being offensive to others? It's funny how those creating daily road blocks argue that it's a legal form of protest, yet when residents do it along contentious parade routes they cry foul? I though Northern Ireland had progressed further than this, it's not as unionist dominated as it had been, so until everyone can compromise with the other different culture/community, it's just going to be history repeating itself.

Happyman42

I think that on the morning after a British prime minister has apologised once again for the 'shocking levels of collusion' in the death of an Irish man that Unionst politicians should show some sensitivity and accept that this belligerent and vain show of dominance is neither helpful or progressive. That flag simply does not represent everyone and if Unionists now believe that everyone is equal then they have to demonstrate that.

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think that on the morning after a British prime minister has apologised once again for the 'shocking levels of collusion' in the death of an Irish man that Unionst politicians should show some sensitivity and accept that this belligerent and vain show of dominance is neither helpful or progressive. That flag simply does not represent everyone and if Unionists now believe that everyone is equal then they have to demonstrate that.

"... if Unionists now believe that everyone is equal ..."

That´s the whole point and I think that this applies for both sides.

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

"... if Unionists now believe that everyone is equal ..."

That´s the whole point and I think that this applies for both sides.

What does this demand that one sides flag be displayed all year round, on a building shared by all sides, tell you about equality and inclusiveness?

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

What does this demand that one sides flag be displayed all year round, on a building shared by all sides, tell you about equality and inclusiveness?

It tells me that the die-hards haven´t vanished yet and it´s time for them to move on. There´s too much interpretation towards the Union Flag which should be regarded just as a national symbol of the UK, nothing more and nothing less. Quite the way it´s normal in Great Britain, for they don´t make such a fuss of it in a way it appeared in recent days in NI. But I understand that the Union Flag has the power to create feelings. It´s not by the Flag per se, it´s the people who are affected by it in positive as well as in negative feelings and express them.

In principle it really makes me wonder about the reasons this motion about the Union Flag on the Belfast City Hall has been brought up to vote in the council anyway? After all this is a public and civic building in a part of the UK and normally it shouldn´t bother anyone at all while that flag is flying there. But it´s my mistake by going out from normal circumstances in an area where normality is a fragile matter. I´m aware of that but I can´t help it, everytime I come across such issues it´s just strange to me.

What will be next, the removal of the Royal Coat of Arms in the chamber of the Stormont building? I think that SF has do deal with the status quo and as long as NI remains part of the UK, as long they better learn to live with these symbols displayed in and on public buildings. It´s no question to me to imagine how they´d react if someone would try to remove symbols of the Irish State in the Republic of Ireland on the grounds of equality and inclusiveness. This would be outrageous.

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

It tells me that the die-hards haven´t vanished yet and it´s time for them to move on. There´s too much interpretation towards the Union Flag which should be regarded just as a national symbol of the UK, nothing more and nothing less. Quite the way it´s normal in Great Britain, for they don´t make such a fuss of it in a way it appeared in recent days in NI. But I understand that the Union Flag has the power to create feelings. It´s not by the Flag per se, it´s the people who are affected by it in positive as well as in negative feelings and express them.

In principle it really makes me wonder about the reasons this motion about the Union Flag on the Belfast Civic Hall has been brought up to vote in the council anyway? After all this is a public and civic building in a part of the UK and normally it shouldn´t bother anyone at all while that flag is flying there. But it´s my mistake by going out from normal circumstances in an area where normality is a fragile matter. I´m aware of that but I can´t help it, everytime I come across such issues it´s just strange to me.

What will be next, the removal of the Royal Coat of Arms in the chamber of the Stormont building? I think that SF has do deal with the status quo and as long as NI remains part of the UK, as long they better learn to live with these symbols displayed in and on public buildings. It´s no question to me to imagine how they´d react if someone would try to remove symbols of the Irish State in the Republic of Ireland on the grounds of equality and inclusiveness. This would be outrageous.

I think you are willfully ignoring just how far SF have come. Their hand was out first and was rebuked until it became politically expedient to be shaken. You are also willfully ignoring the spirit and aspirations of the GFA, to which all signed up to. Inclusiveness and shared power.
The question is, are the Unionist fraternity just paying lipservice to that notion?

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think you are willfully ignoring just how far SF have come. Their hand was out first and was rebuked until it became politically expedient to be shaken. You are also willfully ignoring the spirit and aspirations of the GFA, to which all signed up to. Inclusiveness and shared power.
The question is, are the Unionist fraternity just paying lipservice to that notion?

No, I´m neither willfully ignoring the efforts of SF in the peace process, but as far as I remember, the display of the Union Flag in NI hasn´t been an issue in GFA. The inclusiveness and above all shared power was the matter among others. After 14 years since the GFA you still have those people on both sides who moved on and those sticking in the past in their minds. The top aim on the agenda of SF is to achieve a united Ireland and they will never give up that aim, because oftherwise they could dissolve themselves.

You can´t tell me that neither SF, nor the SDLP and even not the Alliance had been such ignorants that they wouldn´t had to anticipate an pupblic protest reaction from some parts of the Unionist community about that flag issue. To them this is a sensitive matter and I´m asking you whether this motion was really necessary?
I´ve given my personal opinion on that, quite without taking the unionist side.

Your question applies for both sides, because as I said before there are still those meaning to achieve a peaceful NI and those just doing a lipservice. How would you tell one from another?

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

The top aim on the agenda of SF is to achieve a united Ireland and they will never give up that aim, because oftherwise they could dissolve themselves.

A legitimate aspiration enshrined in the agreement, which also enshrined the notion of 'shared' power, which the triumphalist display (that is what is bieing stopped here, not the flying of the flag per se) of this flag 'flies' in the face off.

You can´t tell me that neither SF, nor the SDLP and even not the Alliance had been such ignorants that they wouldn´t had to anticipate an pupblic protest reaction from some parts of the Unionist community about that flag issue. To them this is a sensitive matter and I´m asking you whether this motion was really necessary?

3 people, yes 3!! turned up to an exploratory session on this motion. It was an Alliance party otion btw, SF compromised (yes...COMPROMISED) on their motion which was to remove the flag all together.

I´ve given my personal opinion on that, quite without taking the unionist side.

Your question applies for both sides, because as I said before there are still those meaning to achieve a peaceful NI and those just doing a lipservice. How would you tell one from another?

Again I ask you, what is it about the 2 Unionist party's behaviour and statements on this matter that convinces you that they are interested in a proper peace in a shared and inclusive society.

dlofnep

Thomas_I wrote: »

How representative and reliable is that page?

It's a parody from what I can see, but there's a hint of truth in it.

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

A legitimate aspiration enshrined in the agreement, which also enshrined the notion of 'shared' power, which the triumphalist display (that is what is bieing stopped here, not the flying of the flag per se) of this flag 'flies' in the face off.

Yes, I know about that aspiration and it is to achieve by peaceful means. The triumphalist display lies in the eye of the viewer and therefore it is a matter of interpretation.

Happyman42 wrote: »

3 people, yes 3!! turned up to an exploratory session on this motion. It was an Alliance party otion btw, SF compromised (yes...COMPROMISED) on their motion which was to remove the flag all together.

SF had also the option to obstain and probably by doing so the motion hadn´t passed. The fact that as you said just 3 people turned up to an exploratory session may be interpreted as that this motion hasn´t been that important to more than those three.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Again I ask you, what is it about the 2 Unionist party's behaviour and statements on this matter that convinces you that they are interested in a proper peace in a shared and inclusive society.

It´s more their efforts they promissed to take up to keep the unionist thugs at bay that makes me think that they´re interested in a "proper peace in a shared and inclusive society". It doesn´t convinces me, because they have to prove themselves that they are able in doing so, but I´m not so naive to believe that this will be an easy undertaking. Even if they expell such people from their organisations, there isn´t any guarantee that these people won´t act as individuals the same way they did in the past days. Probably they´ll doing the same on future opportunities.

No organisation is capable of giving such guarantees and one has seen that even SF wasn´t capable to prevent the split within the P-IRA from which some individuals refused to keep up with the peace process and the Omagh boming was just one example of that within less than a half year from the GFA. This is not to blame SF for all, it´s just to tell a fact that every organisation has its limits of influence towards individuals.

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

Yes, I know about that aspiration and it is to achieve by peaceful means. The triumphalist display lies in the eye of the viewer and therefore it is a matter of interpretation.

The Alliance party recognised the damage that allowing this belligerent triumphalist display (if it isn't that, why do the Unionists consider themselves different to the rest of the UK? What is the all year around insistence all about?) to continue was doing. That is the interpretation of moderates.

No organisation is capable of giving such guarantees and one has seen that even SF wasn´t capable to prevent the split within the P-IRA from which some individuals refused to keep up with the peace process and the Omagh boming was just one example of that within less than a half year from the GFA. This is not to blame SF for all, it´s just to tell a fact that every organisation has its limits of influence towards individuals.

You are ignoring the deliberate stoking of this by Unionist party machines....eg. the leaflets and the rethoric.

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

The Alliance party recognised the damage that allowing this belligerent triumphalist display (if it isn't that, why do the Unionists consider themselves different to the rest of the UK? What is the all year around insistence all about?) to continue was doing. That is the interpretation of moderates..

I don´t know the answer to your question because I´m not a unionist so you´d better place that question to them. If you´re putting a flying flag on a public building on the same level as the "triumphalist display" of Union Flags on the streets by the unionist community than this is your opinion, but it doesn´t goes in accordance with the rules about flying national flags on public buildings. These rules are not sectarian, they are valid across the whole of the UK. Nothing more was I talking about.

Happyman42 wrote: »

You are ignoring the deliberate stoking of this by Unionist party machines....eg. the leaflets and the rethoric.

I´m not familiar with the leaflets and the rethoric of the Unionist party machines and one doesn´t have to listen to them or read their leaflets to reflect the recent history of NI since the GFA. There are other incidents that occured since then and one has been last year when some "Real-IRA men" placed a bomb underneath the car of an PSNI Officer who was an Irish Catholic and the murderer knew that, but this hasn´t stopped these people to murder him. This was condemned by all parties in NI, formost by Mr McGuinness himself.

oscarBravo

Happyman42 wrote: »

...this belligerent triumphalist display (if it isn't that, why do the Unionists consider themselves different to the rest of the UK? What is the all year around insistence all about?)

The union flag flies permanently above the Houses of Parliament as of last year. Before that, it flew whenever Parliament was in session.

Happyman42

oscarBravo wrote: »

The union flag flies permanently above the Houses of Parliament as of last year. Before that, it flew whenever Parliament was in session.

What is your point?
Did a majority in the houses of Parliment agree to only fly it on 15 days of the year? ( I will remind you also that this is not the seat of government but Belfast City Hall, the seat of a council.)

Thomas_I

Happyman42 wrote: »

What is your point?
Did a majority in the houses of Parliment agree to only fly it on 15 days of the year? ( I will remind you also that this is not the seat of government but Belfast City Hall, the seat of a council.)

Do you mean by this that a council is something independent without relation to the NIA? I´ve read some overview about the civic councils in NI and couldn´t find some referrence. Their function is more restricted on merely administrative matters. Maybe you know more about that and you could provide the reason for why it is more appropriate to have no flag flying on the Belfast City Hall, aside from anoying the unionists, just for lawful reasons (prior the recent vote of the council on that matter).

Happyman42

Thomas_I wrote: »

Do you mean by this that a council is something independent without relation to the NIA? I´ve read some overview about the civic councils in NI and couldn´t find some referrence. Their function is more restricted on merely administrative matters. Maybe you know more about that and you could provide the reason for why it is more appropriate to have no flag flying on the Belfast City Hall, aside from anoying the unionists, just for lawful reasons (prior the recent vote of the council on that matter).

I have no idea of what the law was, I do know what the law is now: 15 days a year.
To take the position that the situation in the North is somehow as normalised as the rest of the UK is to take the same wilfully ignornant position that Unionists will take when they are trying to safeguard their superior triumpalist position. That triumphalism is what makes their identity different to normal British people. It is not the same, there are sensitivities and indeed protocols that are enshrined in an international agreement that must be adhered to.
What the Alliance and moderates are saying is: You cannot and will not be allowed to hold that position.
The street violence is just a desperate attempt to cling on to that part of their identity. Stand up to it, don't be swayed and they will go home and think of something else to get annoyed about.

oscarBravo

Happyman42 wrote: »

What is your point?

I was addressing the idea that it's somehow unheard of for the union flag to fly permanently over a public building in the UK.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Stand up to it, don't be swayed and they will go home and think of something else to get annoyed about.

I'm holding my breath waiting for the same people who tell us that if we give republicans what they want, it will prevent the deaths of prison officers, to now tell us to give the loyalists what they want in order to prevent riots in the streets.

Nodin

Thomas_I wrote: »

No, I´m neither willfully ignoring the efforts of SF in the peace process, but as far as I remember, the display of the Union Flag in NI hasn´t been an issue in GFA................

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]It was, under "Rights, Safeguards and Equality of Opportunity" - Symbols and Emblems.
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