Finding FTP in offseason.

ballyharpat

Hey,
I am away from competitive racing for over two years, I am about 10lbs heavier and a lot slower. I am currently 6 weeks into a 10 week prep period and will be starting base in the new year. I have been disciplined in keeping my HR to the recommended rate as per the cycling bible. I feel I would benefit from having a new FTP and wondering if the best way to do it is the 20min CTP test and if I do this, will it have a negative effect on my training, as in riding well above where I have been? ANyone with experience on this? thanks in advance

colm_gti

ballyharpat wrote: »

Hey,
I am away from competitive racing for over two years, I am about 10lbs heavier and a lot slower. I am currently 6 weeks into a 10 week prep period and will be starting base in the new year. I have been disciplined in keeping my HR to the recommended rate as per the cycling bible. I feel I would benefit from having a new FTP and wondering if the best way to do it is the 20min CTP test and if I do this, will it have a negative effect on my training, as in riding well above where I have been? ANyone with experience on this? thanks in advance

Cycling bible suggests doing this during every recovery week to measure your improvements, so why not get your first reading during your first planned recovery week? That's what I'll be doing anyway....I've never measured my FTP....

chakattack

Are you using a power meter? Saw you were selling a cpu or something?

If you're asking about going over zone 2 during the winter base period, I wouldn't worry. You've got 6 weeks of steady miles already. Modern thinking seems to be to do some sweet spot/threshold work once or twice a week while building up the base miles.

Did my first proper 2 x 20min just below FTP tonight and it was a b*stard. Watching Gilbert win Amstel Gold got me through it.

ballyharpat

Thanks lads,

Cycling bible suggests doing this during every recovery week to measure your improvements, so why not get your first reading during your first planned recovery week? That's what I'll be doing anyway....I've never measured my FTP....
because I've only been doing prep, I haven't taken a recovery week assuch-except when the Irish weather called for one I'll give a look through the book again and see what it says, I do prefer having power over HR to gauge with....


If you're asking about going over zone 2 during the winter base period, I wouldn't worry. You've got 6 weeks of steady miles already. Modern thinking seems to be to do some sweet spot/threshold work once or twice a week while building up the base miles.

Did my first proper 2 x 20min just below FTP tonight and it was a b*stard. Watching Gilbert win Amstel Gold got me through it.

Yeah, going over zone 2, I hadn't heard that sst was recommended frequently, I try to discipline myself and not go over, but I guess it depends on where one is in their training and when they plan on peaking, fair play for doing the 2x20's, I am looking forward to getting to that point in my training so I can cut back on the volume....

BTW, yeah, I have a powertap and was selling an extra cpu.... love training with power

chakattack

ballyharpat wrote: »

Thanks lads,

Cycling bible suggests doing this during every recovery week to measure your improvements, so why not get your first reading during your first planned recovery week? That's what I'll be doing anyway....I've never measured my FTP....
because I've only been doing prep, I haven't taken a recovery week assuch-except when the Irish weather called for one I'll give a look through the book again and see what it says, I do prefer having power over HR to gauge with....


If you're asking about going over zone 2 during the winter base period, I wouldn't worry. You've got 6 weeks of steady miles already. Modern thinking seems to be to do some sweet spot/threshold work once or twice a week while building up the base miles.

Did my first proper 2 x 20min just below FTP tonight and it was a b*stard. Watching Gilbert win Amstel Gold got me through it.

Yeah, going over zone 2, I hadn't heard that sst was recommended frequently, I try to discipline myself and not go over, but I guess it depends on where one is in their training and when they plan on peaking, fair play for doing the 2x20's, I am looking forward to getting to that point in my training so I can cut back on the volume....

BTW, yeah, I have a powertap and was selling an extra cpu.... love training with power

Not planning to cut volume or peak for a long time yet but think some SST work once a week is beneficial. That said I couldn't face an all out FTP finding session at the moment and reckon I'd just blow up.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Just a question but why are you focussing on hr as opposed to power, if i am reading right you have a PT? For me i would be treating hr secondary to power and using hr only as a reference check.
Testing your FTP and using those established zones in training would see more benefit especially peppering in some work in your sessions around sweetspot and a bit above and just below threshold. That sort of work could be ramped up once you are out of the prep phase.

Hmmzis

Orion Long Tonsillectomy wrote: »

Just a question but why are you focussing on hr as opposed to power, if i am reading right you have a PT? For me i would be treating hr secondary to power and using hr only as a reference check.
Testing your FTP and using those established zones in training would see more benefit especially peppering in some work in your sessions around sweetspot and a bit above and just below threshold. That sort of work could be ramped up once you are out of the prep phase.

In the bible power meters rule for any sort of intervals or time trials, even races. When it comes to long steady efforts HR is the value to look at due to something called cardiac drift (HR tends to creep up during long steady efforts while power output is staying the same). Friel has some more explanations in the bible for this but I can't recall those now.

During these long steady efforts the goal is to train your fat metabolism to become more efficient (spares other more potent fuels for the higher intensity stuff) and HR seems to be related to the various stages of your metabolism. So, if it goes too high you'll be training a different part of it.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Aware of cardiac drift alright hence my comment on using hr as a reference check. Does not really come into play though if doing a few 5/10min efforts in & around threshold. For steady efforts i normally have a power range any way rather than a set wattage so if there was a drift occuring you pull back to the lower power range.
In saying all of that i dont bother with hr any more:rolleyes:

chakattack

Hmmzis wrote: »

In the bible power meters rule for any sort of intervals or time trials, even races. When it comes to long steady efforts HR is the value to look at due to something called cardiac drift (HR tends to creep up during long steady efforts while power output is staying the same). Friel has some more explanations in the bible for this but I can't recall those now.

During these long steady efforts the goal is to train your fat metabolism to become more efficient (spares other more potent fuels for the higher intensity stuff) and HR seems to be related to the various stages of your metabolism. So, if it goes too high you'll be training a different part of it.

There's lots of confusing stuff in the "bible". The cardiac drift is the reason not to rely on HR, it will rise steadily over the course of a 20 min FTP interval. If you start at your "FTP" heart rate you'll be pushing too hard too early.

The goal is to increase your power at threshold, not increase fat metabolism. The efforts are hard and you need to be well fueled for them. 2-3 hrs steady without food is how you train fat metabolism as far as I know.

Hmmzis

chakattack wrote: »

There's lots of confusing stuff in the "bible". The cardiac drift is the reason not to rely on HR, it will rise steadily over the course of a 20 min FTP interval. If you start at your "FTP" heart rate you'll be pushing too hard too early.

The goal is to increase your power at threshold, not increase fat metabolism. The efforts are hard and you need to be well fueled for them. 2-3 hrs steady without food is how you train fat metabolism as far as I know.

I was just refering to the question of why bother with HR if there is a PM available. I agree that with any sort of intervals, TTs, races a PM is king and Friel makes that very clear in his book. But for long steady efforts (z1/z2 3-6h stuff) he actually recommends to go by HR.

ballyharpat

Thanks lads, this is what I have been looking for, I think I will go out and do a 20min effort today and use that as my guide for power, then I can go back to my z2 training and use power while also keeping an eye on hr. I think I would be limiting my peak if I went into frequent intervals before I had finished my prep, may throw in some 5minute threshold intervals when I start base, but would prefer to keep them until I am in build really....

ballyharpat

Orion Long Tonsillectomy wrote: »

Just a question but why are you focussing on hr as opposed to power, if i am reading right you have a PT? For me i would be treating hr secondary to power and using hr only as a reference check.
Testing your FTP and using those established zones in training would see more benefit especially peppering in some work in your sessions around sweetspot and a bit above and just below threshold. That sort of work could be ramped up once you are out of the prep phase.

I was using hr instead of Poewr because I hadn't done a test in a few years, I believe my hr prob has not changed as much as my power, and I have been on the MTB a lot, for which I don't have a PM

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Make sure you do the the t5 all out beforehand otherwise you will end up with an inflated ftp on the t20. Oh and enjoy!!

ballyharpat

Sorry Jack, what's the t5? I did 20 min of tempo before it?

Lumen

ballyharpat wrote: »

Sorry Jack, what's the t5? I did 20 min of tempo before it?

5 minute balls out.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

ballyharpat wrote: »

Sorry Jack, what's the t5? I did 20 min of tempo before it?

As Lumen says 5mins balls out, this is to open up the legs and dispense of any initial freshness in the legs so your main 20 minute effort is more reflective of your FTP. Allow 10mins easy in between the t5 and t20.

Robroy36

Orion Long Tonsillectomy wrote: »

As Lumen says 5mins balls out, this is to open up the legs and dispense of any initial freshness in the legs so your main 20 minute effort is more reflective of your FTP. Allow 10mins easy in between the t5 and t20.

What would a good club cyclist do for their 5/20 minute efforts?

Lumen

Robroy36 wrote: »

What would a good club cyclist do for their 5/20 minute efforts?

Depends what you mean by "good club cyclist". There are quite large differences between riders in the same racing groups, even in W/kg terms.

12 sprocket

Lumen wrote: »

5 minute balls out.

This seems physiologically unsound, as it seems that the 20 minute test will be compromised by beginning the test with an elevated lactate from the "balls out 5 minutes"

Lumen

12 sprocket wrote: »

This seems physiologically unsound, as it seems that the 20 minute test will be compromised by beginning the test with an elevated lactate from the "balls out 5 minutes"

There's a recovery period between the two.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Robroy36 wrote: »

What would a good club cyclist do for their 5/20 minute efforts?

It's a very large range, the attachement should help though. Work out your w/per kg at FT and see where you sit in the table

Lumen

Orion Long Tonsillectomy wrote: »

It's a very large range, the attachement should help though. Work out your w/per kg at FT and see where you sit in the table

Not sure about those charts. There are a few versions.

The top of that chart is 7.6W/kg for 5 minutes.

https://twitter.com/GeraintThomas86/status/116811786166079488

"Just done my 5minute power efforts on the turbo with Jez. Had him by 3w, 580 pretty happy with that..."

Geraint is 71kg. That's 8.16W/kg. (insert emoticon of preference)

Hmmzis

Lumen wrote: »

Not sure about those charts. There are a few versions.

The top of that chart is 7.6W/kg for 5 minutes.

https://twitter.com/GeraintThomas86/status/116811786166079488

"Just done my 5minute power efforts on the turbo with Jez. Had him by 3w, 580 pretty happy with that..."

Geraint is 71kg. That's 8.16W/kg. (insert emoticon of preference)

Wasn't 7.6W/kg the value Ferrari was suggesting what's needed to win the TdF? Do we have a potential tour winner there?

Diarmuid

Hmmzis wrote: »

Wasn't 7.6W/kg the value Ferrari was suggesting what's needed to win the TdF?

6.7 w/kg. For an hour. Doped to the gills.

ballyharpat

in my peak I was putting out 4.6 watts per kg, over an hour. at this point in time, I am putting out 3.5w/kg, I am only coming out of prep, going into base, so I'm happy enough with that. I could probably get it to 5w/kg in 18 months, with the right training and racing.

ballyharpat

12 sprocket wrote: »

This seems physiologically unsound, as it seems that the 20 minute test will be compromised by beginning the test with an elevated lactate from the "balls out 5 minutes"

From what I can understand, it is recommended so that it gets the legs flowing and gets through the inital leg opener, creating a more exact and full out ftp. I just gauged my 5min power off of my 20 minute power using previous tests where I had the same 20 min ftp. At this point in my training, I feel it would be unsound for me to go 'balls out', but that's just me.

ballyharpat

Having reread 'training with a power-meter', I feel that Friels book is much better as a training guide, and there are charts in allens/coggans book that show the relation between power and the zones that Friel use, so I can continue my periodisation.

12 sprocket

Orion Long Tonsillectomy wrote: »

As Lumen says 5mins balls out, this is to open up the legs and dispense of any initial freshness in the legs so your main 20 minute effort is more reflective of your FTP. Allow 10mins easy in between the t5 and t20.

THis doent make any ense at all to me, for example a very fit rider will recover well from the five minutes effort and someone with low fitness levels might have very poor recovery and achieve lower than what should be their FTP

Who thought it up, what's the rationale for it, is there any research that says its correct?

Lumen

12 sprocket wrote: »

THis doent make any ense at all to me, for example a very fit rider will recover well from the five minutes effort and someone with low fitness levels might have very poor recovery and achieve lower than what should be their FTP

Who thought it up, what's the rationale for it, is there any research that says its correct?

I'm not sure what you mean by "what should be their FTP".

FTP is a functional test, requiring an effort exactly 60 minutes long. You cannot do an FTP test any other way.

A 20 minute test with a 5 minute leg emptier is a different test.

It doesn't really matter which test you do, as long as the testing regime is consistent.

People use 20 minute tests because they're easier to recover from and hence less disruptive to training or recovery.

I believe the reasoning behind the leg emptier interval is to make the 20 minute test results more consistent, because whether you got on the bike fresh or jaded you'll feel wrecked after the first five minutes either way.

12 sprocket

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by "what should be their FTP".

I believe the reasoning behind the leg emptier interval is to make the 20 minute test results more consistent, because whether you got on the bike fresh or jaded you'll feel wrecked after the first five minutes either way.

Still doesnt make any sense to me to do the five minute effort before the 20 minute test..

ballyharpat

12 sprocket wrote: »

Still doesnt make any sense to me to do the five minute effort before the 20 minute test..

A fit rider will recover from a balls out 5min in a minute or so, a not so fit rider will take longer to recover, but will be recovered in 5 minutes.

I do the 20 minute, as that is the longest interval I will be doing evan at my build phase, a 1hour effort, is, in my opinion, a wast of 1 hour of good racing legs, I will be performing at LT for my 20 min effort and the most I can perform in 1 hour is lt zone, basically I am getting my legs ready to endure a full hour by doing 20 minutes. I believe I have only so many 1hour tt's in me, I want to use them during races, I consider it a match, each race has a set number of matches to burn, each season has a set number of matches.....

When it comes to training for intervals, I always do the shortest and hardest one first, they put the body under the most strain.

12 sprocket

ballyharpat wrote: »

A fit rider will recover from a balls out 5min in a minute or so, a not so fit rider will take longer to recover, but will be recovered in 5 minutes.

I do the 20 minute, as that is the longest interval I will be doing evan at my build phase, a 1hour effort, is, in my opinion, a wast of 1 hour of good racing legs, I will be performing at LT for my 20 min effort and the most I can perform in 1 hour is lt zone, basically I am getting my legs ready to endure a full hour by doing 20 minutes. I believe I have only so many 1hour tt's in me, I want to use them during races, I consider it a match, each race has a set number of matches to burn, each season has a set number of matches.....

When it comes to training for intervals, I always do the shortest and hardest one first, they put the body under the most strain.

Still doesn't make sense, where's the science behind it. Where's the physiologists let's have your opinion

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

12 sprocket wrote: »

Still doesn't make sense, where's the science behind it. Where's the physiologists let's have your opinion

Ok lets try make it simple by giving you an example

You go straight into a 20min test and you are likely to post a much higher inflated FTP, for the purposes of this example an FTP of 250w. You are likely to hit a higher number over the 20mins because you will be recruiting a lot of fast twitch muscle fibres which will help lift your wattage over the course of the 20min test.

Take the 5min "leg opener" all out effort before the 20min. What this does is use up the recruitment of those fast twitch muscle fibres to make the 20min a more reflective/accurate figure to work off on FTP. Take in this example you only post 230w after following the 5+20 protocol. So now you have established your new training zones based on both test protocols. Its going to be hell doing your training on a higher unrealistic FTP especially when doing supra or sub threshold work. In fact i would say long term it would be detrimental to your overall training, you get what i am saying yet?

Lumen is 100% correct, TBH the most accurate test is a 60min tt but given its not easy to test regularly and it takes a lot of recovery thats why people use these type of test protocols and keep them consistent to track improvements.
Plenty of reading out there for you to read up on, Coggans, Friel, Allen etc.
Oh and it does not matter if you are a fit or unfit rider doing the test, it will establish your training zones for your current level of fitness iregardless.

12 sprocket

Orion Long Tonsillectomy wrote: »

Ok lets try make it simple by giving you an example

You go straight into a 20min test and you are likely to post a much higher inflated FTP, for the purposes of this example an FTP of 250w. You are likely to hit a higher number over the 20mins because you will be recruiting a lot of fast twitch muscle fibres which will help lift your wattage over the course of the 20min test.

Take the 5min "leg opener" all out effort before the 20min. What this does is use up the recruitment of those fast twitch muscle fibres to make the 20min a more reflective/accurate figure to work off on FTP. Take in this example you only post 230w after following the 5+20 protocol. So now you have established your new training zones based on both test protocols. Its going to be hell doing your training on a higher unrealistic FTP especially when doing supra or sub threshold work. In fact i would say long term it would be detrimental to your overall training, you get what i am saying yet?

Lumen is 100% correct, TBH the most accurate test is a 60min tt but given its not easy to test regularly and it takes a lot of recovery thats why people use these type of test protocols and keep them consistent to track improvements.
Plenty of reading out there for you to read up on, Coggans, Friel, Allen etc.
Oh and it does not matter if you are a fit or unfit rider doing the test, it will establish your training zones for your current level of fitness iregardless.

Its all contradictions, now the 5 minutes "balls out" (not a pretty picture at breakfast time) is to use up the fast twitch muscle fibres. Yet on the other hand its being said that with the 5 or ten minutes recovery riders will be well recovered before the test, still doesnt make any sense, so can anyone let us see the science behind it. Why not do the 60 minute test or just use heart rates to determine the threshold?

Hmmzis

12 sprocket wrote: »

Its all contradictions, now the 5 minutes "balls out" (not a pretty picture at breakfast time) is to use up the fast twitch muscle fibres. Yet on the other hand its being said that with the 5 or ten minutes recovery riders will be well recovered before the test, still doesnt make any sense, so can anyone let us see the science behind it. Why not do the 60 minute test or just use heart rates to determine the threshold?

From what I've heard/read then fast twitch fibers take a good bit longer to recover than slow twitch fibers. This would fit in with the 5min burn, as it would take out the fast twitch fibers and leave you with the slow twitch ones for the 20min test.

tunney

12 sprocket wrote: »

Its all contradictions, now the 5 minutes "balls out" (not a pretty picture at breakfast time) is to use up the fast twitch muscle fibres. Yet on the other hand its being said that with the 5 or ten minutes recovery riders will be well recovered before the test, still doesnt make any sense, so can anyone let us see the science behind it. Why not do the 60 minute test or just use heart rates to determine the threshold?

Wow this is a great debate, the cycling forum has really come on lots in the last while!

As an aside, how do you do a pink font?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

12 sprocket wrote: »

Its all contradictions, now the 5 minutes "balls out" (not a pretty picture at breakfast time) is to use up the fast twitch muscle fibres. Yet on the other hand its being said that with the 5 or ten minutes recovery riders will be well recovered before the test, still doesnt make any sense, so can anyone let us see the science behind it. Why not do the 60 minute test or just use heart rates to determine the threshold?

How about you go about researching and reading up on it yourself if you do not believe in what is being said. G,day

Morrisseeee

ballyharpat wrote: »

in my peak I was putting out 4.6 watts per kg, over an hour. at this point in time, I am putting out 3.5w/kg, I am only coming out of prep, going into base, so I'm happy enough with that. I could probably get it to 5w/kg in 18 months, with the right training and racing.

Fair play, the 4.6 & 5w/kg per hour are high numbers, not A4 standard anyway

Silly Q alert :pac:, but how did you measure this power ? ie. was it on a long climb ? was it an individual TT ? was it in a race ? was it indoors on a roller etc ?
I'm asking because I'd imagine there's differences in each of those collection methods I've mentioned !!

ballyharpat

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Fair play, the 4.6 & 5w/kg per hour are high numbers, not A4 standard anyway

Silly Q alert :pac:, but how did you measure this power ? ie. was it on a long climb ? was it an individual TT ? was it in a race ? was it indoors on a roller etc ?
I'm asking because I'd imagine there's differences in each of those collection methods I've mentioned !!

Thanks
I was at my peak, to put it in perspective, I was able to do 25 miles in 56.5minutes.. I did it in races and replicated it in tt's and hill climbs. I would have been able to do it on a turbo trainer, but I was in my peak and knew I only had so much time of that lasting in that season, so I would not go on a heavy training session during race/peak season. I probably would not have been able to do it on rollers, as my cadence was not high enough,

I was a Cat3 racer and was working toward my CAT2 points before I left the States, the Catsgories in the USA go, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, pro

I have no doubt that I can get back there again