Tougher penalties for L platers

Henry Ford III

11/12/2012 - 07:59:54
Learner drivers are set to face tougher penalties for breaking traffic rules.

Government Ministers will today discuss measures in a new Road Traffic Bill - which includes a provision to impose two penalty points for beginners who are caught driving unaccompanied.

If they are not showing their L-plates on their vehicle they will get another two points on their licence.

It is thought that around one in 10 drivers on Irish roads are using provisional licences.

SEPT 23 1989

also a penalty point given if your car is submitted for NCT and its found not be be roadworthy

Henry Ford III

Few more interested details.....

The new Bill also halves from 12 to six the number of penalty points a learner motorist can accumulate within a three-year period before losing their licence. It is expected this provision will apply only to learner permits issued or renewed after the legislation is enacted as new sanctions cannot be retrospective.

Points increase

For all motorists the penalties for speeding, failing to wear a seatbelt or using a mobile phone will increase from two to three points and, upon conviction in court, to five.

The repair and resale of a written-off vehicle will be prohibited by a new provision which will see a vehicle deemed unroadworthy by the NCT being removed from the national vehicle file and barred from passing an NCT test.

Since 2008, all learner drivers, including those on a second provisional licence, are required to be accompanied by a fully qualified driver.

Currently, those found in breach face a fine of up to €1,000.

However, a recent Garda operation targeting unaccompanied driving found almost half of learners flouted this requirement.

Terrontress

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

also a penalty point given if your car is submitted for NCT and its found not be be roadworthy

Even if you take it there on a trailer?

Henry Ford III

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

also a penalty point given if your car is submitted for NCT and its found not be be roadworthy

Link for that? Sounds hard to credit.

R.O.R

It's a start, but still not enough in my opinion.

Until the Gardai have the power to seize vehicles from unlicenced drivers, L drivers will continue to flout the laws as it would inconvenience them to follow them.

awec

This post has been deleted.

dgt

All well and good. But without enforcement it ain't worth a toss

corktina

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Link for that? Sounds hard to credit.

its nonsense...ignore it....

SEPT 23 1989

corktina wrote: »

its nonsense...ignore it....

Minister of Transport said it on morning ireland 8.10a.m this morning

i thought it sounded a bit harsh alright

awec

This post has been deleted.

MugMugs

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Minister of Transport said it on morning ireland 8.10a.m this morning

i thought it sounded a bit harsh alright

That's so wide open you'd not have have a good time with it.....

When did NCTS get the right to book people too? Joke.

copeyhagen

the nct one is bullsh1t, unless its specific to dangerous things like a split fuel line, which i have actually witnessed in ballymun:

nct guy "your car is dangerous to drive home, you should get it towed, the fuel line is split"
female owner "so..... i shouldnt drive it home, but i can legally?"
nct "yes, i cant stop you driving it, but you shouldnt"
female (takes the keys) "ill get it looked at thanks"

all the people saying clamp down on L drivers, i would be willing to bet are the exact same hypocrites that drove arounf unaccompanied when they were learning. (im not a learner btw)

R.O.R

copeyhagen wrote: »

all the people saying clamp down on L drivers, i would be willing to bet are the exact same hypocrites that drove arounf unaccompanied when they were learning. (im not a learner btw)

How much are you willing to stake, and what are the odds?

testx

According to this morning's Times:
"The new Bill also halves from 12 to six the number of penalty points a learner motorist can accumulate within a three-year period before losing their licence. It is expected this provision will apply only to learner permits issued or renewed after the legislation is enacted as new sanctions cannot be retrospective."

So currently, unaccompanied learners accrue only 1 point and a 80euro fine, and still have the 12 limit?

ABajaninCork

Not before time, although I agree with dgt. It ain't worth a tinker's fart unless it's followed through. I also think that unaccompanied L-driver's should be seized on the spot. Like I've said, it might concentrate some people's minds on obeying the law?

Not sure of the law here, but is there a system where learners are 'on probation' for the first two years? For instance, in the UK if the new driver accumulates more than six pp's in the first two years, then the licence is revoked and they have to re-sit an extended test?

Guy:Incognito

R.O.R wrote: »

It's a start, but still not enough in my opinion.

Until the Gardai have the power to seize vehicles from unlicenced drivers, L drivers will continue to flout the laws as it would inconvenience them to follow them.

Would they do it though (the gardai) . They aren't bothering with the fines etc that they can give out already. Adding more punishments that the Gards don't hand out wont change anything.

hi5

I heard that interview this morning, Loe Varadkar seemed a bit confused about the technicalities, he mentioned 'penalty point plates' at on stage.
I would imagine that the penalty points apply when a car is declared unroadworthy and unsafe to drive and the owner drives it away from the NCT centre anyway because how would you know if your car is unroadworthy unless you have it tested in the first place?

Vicxas

The learner driver thing i completely agree with them. I know some people on L plates who are BRUTAL drivers.

djimi

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Not before time, although I agree with dgt. It ain't worth a tinker's fart unless it's followed through. I also think that unaccompanied L-driver's should be seized on the spot. Like I've said, it might concentrate some people's minds on obeying the law?

Agreed; I see no reason to treat them any different to drunk drivers. Seize car on spot, revoke learners permit for a year. Problem would go away overnight.

kippy

Vicxas wrote: »

The learner driver thing i completely agree with them. I know some people on L plates who are BRUTAL drivers.

I know a lot of people not on L plates who are just as bad, if not worse.

I think the L Plate thing is a good thing, a step in the right direction however it's completely moronic that a person has a license for life (outside of getting a ban)
The test, in itself, is also moronic. Driving won't improve in any major way until these two things are also addressed.

keithclancy

Not soon enough imo !

I was driving from Sligo to Naas on Sunday and was behind a L Plated driver (Alone in the car)

She kept speeding up and slowing down, drove through a red light, indicated to go all the way around a roundabout and then left on the first exit from the inside lane.

To top it off she then started texting on her phone, indicated left before a turn off but kept driving straight on. The guy who was coming out of the turn was alert enough not to go.

Jesus like.

Humans eh!

Ok. So can anybody tell me what I could do.
I am a 44 year old man.
I am seperated.
I live alone in rural Ireland.
8 miles to nearest Town.
No public transport system.

Currently I walk into town about twice a week to collect social welfare carry home shopping etc. Very dangerous road especially in winter.

I have an old car that has been off the road for a year. Bought VW Golf (99) in 2010 when I lived with my partner who had a full car licence I can't afford tax/insurance and the electrics need attention but no matter, for argument the car is out of the equation. I allowed my provisional licence to lapse in Feb 2012 as I wasn't using it

I have been a biker since my teens and am on my third full bike licence, my last bike which I sold in 2011 was a ZR750. I have been driving on Irish roads since the mid eighties (no traffic violations whatsoever) Present licence expires in 2018.

I went to take my driving test in May 2011 and being newly unemployed The test fee was a significant outlay but I believed that having a full licence would help me greatly in my Jobseeking.

For the test I took down my old faded L plates from my rear window and replaced it with a brand new magnetic one that was gifted to me. By the time I reached the test centre 30 miles away the magnetic plate had detatched itself and fallen off. After answering the questionnaire myself and the examiner went out to my car and she took one look at the lack of L plate and refused to allow me to take the test and informed me that my fee was forfeit and I would have to re-apply and pay again.

So as I see it It is impossible for me to resume driving a car legally unless I wait in my house until a passerby with a full licence happens to walk by my rural home and agrees to accompany me into town.

If I tootle gently along in a small car I am a criminal without any regard for fellow road users and pose an extreme danger to all I encounter. However I can hop on a 1300 cc high powered motorcycle and go where I like.

So how can I drive a car without employing someone to accompany me?
Its all very well coming up with layers and layers of legislation designed more with the intake of revenue than any concern for safety but the reality of rural people is not a straightforward.
So basically it is impossible for me to begin driving a car again legally as a single rural dweller.

This country is simply being drowned in bureaucracy without any infrastructure to back it up. I don't want to leave the country but it is seeming inevitable.

tfitzgerald

A lot of these new penalty points are only more money making rackets. I would love to know how many TD's sons/ daughter had their points squashed by the local friendly super.

djimi

Humans eh! wrote: »

Ok. So can anybody tell me what I could do.
I am a 44 year old man.
I am seperated.
I live alone in rural Ireland.
8 miles to nearest Town.
No public transport system.

Currently I walk into town about twice a week to collect social welfare carry home shopping etc. Very dangerous road especially in winter.

I have an old car that has been off the road for a year. Bought VW Golf (99) in 2010 when I lived with my partner who had a full car licence I can't afford tax/insurance and the electrics need attention but no matter, for argument the car is out of the equation. I allowed my provisional licence to lapse in Feb 2012 as I wasn't using it

I have been a biker since my teens and am on my third full bike licence, my last bike which I sold in 2011 was a ZR750. I have been driving on Irish roads since the mid eighties (no traffic violations whatsoever) Present licence expires in 2018.

I went to take my driving test in May 2011 and being newly unemployed The test fee was a significant outlay but I believed that having a full licence would help me greatly in my Jobseeking.

For the test I took down my old faded L plates from my rear window and replaced it with a brand new magnetic one that was gifted to me. By the time I reached the test centre 30 miles away the magnetic plate had detatched itself and fallen off. After answering the questionnaire myself and the examiner went out to my car and she took one look at the lack of L plate and refused to allow me to take the test and informed me that my fee was forfeit and I would have to re-apply and pay again.

So as I see it It is impossible for me to resume driving a car legally unless I wait in my house until a passerby with a full licence happens to walk by my rural home and agrees to accompany me into town.

If I tootle gently along in a small car I am a criminal without any regard for fellow road users and pose an extreme danger to all I encounter. However I can hop on a 1300 cc high powered motorcycle and go where I like.

So how can I drive a car without employing someone to accompany me?
Its all very well coming up with layers and layers of legislation designed more with the intake of revenue than any concern for safety but the reality of rural people is not a straightforward.
So basically it is impossible for me to begin driving a car again legally as a single rural dweller.

This country is simply being drowned in bureaucracy without any infrastructure to back it up. I don't want to leave the country but it is seeming inevitable.

Do you not know of a single person with a car who would give you a lift to the driving school/test center?

The problem you face is because of the lack of public transport in rural areas, not because of the driving laws. Allowing potentially dangerous learners on the road out of necessity is not the answer, regardless of how remote their location.

Humans eh!

Wouldn't it be fun if the gubberment brought in legislation forcing everyone with a full driving licence to retake their test every two years and if you fail you are reduced to a learner permit and barred from driving alone.

Cue a hundred thousand new L drivers with higher insurance and a new found requirement to be accompanied, as far as a revenue earner for our dear leaders it would be a frickkin' goldmine.

I would take a guess at a greater than 50% fail rate.
Any thoughts?

djimi

Humans eh! wrote: »

Wouldn't it be fun if the gubberment brought in legislation forcing everyone with a full driving licence to retake their test every two years and if you fail you are reduced to a learner permit and barred from driving alone.

Cue a hundred thousand new L drivers with higher insurance and a new found requirement to be accompanied, as far as a revenue earner for our dear leaders it would be a frickkin' goldmine.

I would take a guess at a greater than 50% fail rate.
Any thoughts?

It would be nonsense is what it would be... I fully understand and in theory agree with the idea of retests, but why every 2 years?

keithclancy

Humans eh! wrote: »

Ok. So can anybody tell me what I could do.
I am a 44 year old man.
I am seperated.
I live alone in rural Ireland.
8 miles to nearest Town.
No public transport system.

In that case, your priority should be passing your test.

You say you need a car, therefore have everything in place you need to have a car.

Rasmus

I don't agree with the penalty points for not displaying L plates. I have heard (now I can't prove this of course as it's only talk) that some drivers on the road are LESS patient with an L driver than without.
Reckon there is any truth to that? I don't really remember this happening myself but it's possible.

ABajaninCork

Rasmus wrote: »

I don't agree with the penalty points for not displaying L plates. I have heard (now I can't prove this of course as it's only talk) that some drivers on the road are LESS patient with an L driver than without.
Reckon there is any truth to that? I don't really remember this happening myself but it's possible.

Sadly, that's a fact. There's a LOT of drivers who think that they were born drivers and never had to learn.

My husband & I were at the new Sarsfields Rd roundabout yesterday. He was in the correct lane to turn off for Wilton. Some stupid b1tch behind decided it would be a very good idea to honk her horn, as she thought she should be in front. When the lights changed, she took off, sped round in front of him, causing him to brake sharply. If I had my head on, I would've taken the licence plate and reported the wagon.

To clarify. My husband is the learner. I was with him as the licenced driver

Humans eh!

djimi wrote: »

It would be nonsense is what it would be... I fully understand and in theory agree with the idea of retests, but why every 2 years?

What time frame would suit you? One year? five years? or never as we now have it?

And why would it be nonsense? It would ensure that every person on the road would be fully up to date with their skills to meet the ever evolving conditions traffic levels and road infrastructure. I have driven a motorcycle since my teens even as a courier in the city for a while and as one of the most vulnerable road users have observed some appalling driving in my time and in my experience and opinion L-Drivers are by no means the worst offenders. Once you pass your test it seems that you are free to simply forget all that you have learned and are given a golden pass for life to descend into complacency and bad habits. A huge percentage of people (myself included) passed driving tests before there was a motorway or a roundabout in the country and dual carriageways only existed in exotic places like Naas and theory tests were confined to physicists.

Wicklowandy

Vicxas wrote: »

The learner driver thing i completely agree with them. I know some people on L plates who are BRUTAL drivers.

And to be fair, i know as many with licences who i wouldnt trust with a mini in a 100 acre field.

intellectual dosser

Humans eh! wrote: »

What time frame would suit you? One year? five years? or never as we now have it?

And why would it be nonsense? It would ensure that every person on the road would be fully up to date with their skills to meet the ever evolving conditions traffic levels and road infrastructure. I have driven a motorcycle since my teens even as a courier in the city for a while and as one of the most vulnerable road users have observed some appalling driving in my time and in my experience and opinion L-Drivers are by no means the worst offenders. Once you pass your test it seems that you are free to simply forget all that you have learned and are given a golden pass for life to descend into complacency and bad habits. A huge percentage of people (myself included) passed driving tests before there was a motorway or a roundabout in the country and dual carriageways only existed in exotic places like Naas and theory tests were confined to physicists.

I have to agree to a certain extent.

According to the articles referenced at the top of the thread; Learner Drivers represent only 10% of motorists. Do they think they will fix all our motoring problems by making the rules a bit tighter for them?

Then again the current rules aren't even being enforced so I'm not sure what difference any of this will make.

csallmighty

Its all a racket imo.

Someone can get a learners permit without ever being behind the wheel of a car and the government know fine well that theses people will be stopped and fined.

If the government was genuinely concerned about road safety there would be road competence tests instead of a theory test.

Also I just got my full license two months ago, very happy that I got it before these new rules are enforced, because they will hinder the progression of competent drivers more so than the bad drivers that they are "trying" to get off our roads.

djimi

Humans eh! wrote: »

What time frame would suit you? One year? five years? or never as we now have it?

And why would it be nonsense? It would ensure that every person on the road would be fully up to date with their skills to meet the ever evolving conditions traffic levels and road infrastructure. I have driven a motorcycle since my teens even as a courier in the city for a while and as one of the most vulnerable road users have observed some appalling driving in my time and in my experience and opinion L-Drivers are by no means the worst offenders. Once you pass your test it seems that you are free to simply forget all that you have learned and are given a golden pass for life to descend into complacency and bad habits. A huge percentage of people (myself included) passed driving tests before there was a motorway or a roundabout in the country and dual carriageways only existed in exotic places like Naas and theory tests were confined to physicists.

Logistically it would near impossible to test hundreds of thousands of drivers every year. The system is under strain enough as it is.

Realistically there is no need to retest people every couple of years. I agree in principle anyway that a retest every ten years might not be a bad idea, and would encourage people to continue improving their skills and keeping their ability to a high level. But there is no need to make it any less than that.

djimi

csallmighty wrote: »

Its all a racket imo.

Someone can get a learners permit without ever being behind the wheel of a car and the government know fine well that theses people will be stopped and fined.

If the government was genuinely concerned about road safety there would be road competence tests instead of a theory test.

Also I just got my full license two months ago, very happy that I got it before these new rules are enforced, because they will hinder the progression of competent drivers more so than the bad drivers that they are "trying" to get off our roads.

There is already a road competance test; its called the driving test. The theory test allows you to aquire a learners permit so that you can prepare for the full driving test.

These new rules will not hinder the progress of competant drivers; competant driver have full driving licenses. Until you have a full license you are not proven competant. I really struggle to understand why so many do not grasp this concept.

Rasmus

Humans eh! wrote: »

Wouldn't it be fun if the gubberment brought in legislation forcing everyone with a full driving licence to retake their test every two years and if you fail you are reduced to a learner permit and barred from driving alone.

Cue uproar because it would be ridiculous to ask licenced drivers to pay 100 odd euro every two years for a pointless test that is merely a money spinner. Cue further law-breaking and even more disregard to traffic regulations than ever before.

keithclancy

Humans eh! wrote: »

What time frame would suit you? One year? five years? or never as we now have it?

And why would it be nonsense? It would ensure that every person on the road would be fully up to date with their skills to meet the ever evolving conditions traffic levels and road infrastructure. I have driven a motorcycle since my teens even as a courier in the city for a while and as one of the most vulnerable road users have observed some appalling driving in my time and in my experience and opinion L-Drivers are by no means the worst offenders. Once you pass your test it seems that you are free to simply forget all that you have learned and are given a golden pass for life to descend into complacency and bad habits. A huge percentage of people (myself included) passed driving tests before there was a motorway or a roundabout in the country and dual carriageways only existed in exotic places like Naas and theory tests were confined to physicists.

Ever evolving road conditions and traffic levels ?

Driving hasn't changed in a long long time, maybe a bit since they went from M/Ph to Km/H.

You could argue that the roads are a lot safer than they were say 20 years ago, since Dual Carriageways and Motorways weren't around.

Bad driving should be dealt with by enforcing the rules.

Retest every X amount of years makes no sense, since they can just pass that test and drive like an a$$hole again (if they are so inclined to do so)

furtzy

Driving unaccompanied or no valid NCT then the car should be confiscated on the spot. Amazing how this would focus the mind to be compliant

kippy

keithclancy wrote: »

Ever evolving road conditions and traffic levels ?

Driving hasn't changed in a long long time, maybe a bit since they went from M/Ph to Km/H.

You could argue that the roads are a lot safer than they were say 20 years ago, since Dual Carriageways and Motorways weren't around.

Bad driving should be dealt with by enforcing the rules.

Retest every X amount of years makes no sense, since they can just pass that test and drive like an a$$hole again (if they are so inclined to do so)

There are a significant portion of the fully licensed driving population in this country who never sat a driving test in their lives, and a portion more who have never had a formal driving lesson.
There is a lot to be said for a retest or "refresher" course at some point, perhaps once a decade...........

And as I said above a proper driving test is required.

Enforcement is of course a given requirement in any licensing regime.

Blazer

Humans eh! wrote: »

Wouldn't it be fun if the gubberment brought in legislation forcing everyone with a full driving licence to retake their test every two years and if you fail you are reduced to a learner permit and barred from driving alone.

Cue a hundred thousand new L drivers with higher insurance and a new found requirement to be accompanied, as far as a revenue earner for our dear leaders it would be a frickkin' goldmine.

I would take a guess at a greater than 50% fail rate.
Any thoughts?

It would remind people how easy they had it when learning. People will say fair play etc..until it affects themselves..then the bitching starts..
I drove away myself unaccompanied and never even bothered with L plates..
The measures being touted around are ridiculous.
Everyone should be thought to drive at school/college etc..no excuses then for learner drivers etc..but then again that would require planning/legislation/financing by the Government so not a chance.



Below was a post I made for what we actually need to do in this country to make the roads and drivers safer.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81457808&postcount=67

Blazer wrote:

I drove unaccompanied when I got my first car..granted I was 29 so had a bit more cop on etc and got my full license within the year.
Since I had to travel to work it was impossible for me to have a full driver in the car with me.
I'm sure a lot of people are in the same boat.
The government should just bite the bullet, and make driving lessons mandatory in school etc and have people passing their test with the leaving cert etc or something similiar.
Of course you'll have age issues etc but I think they should lower the entry age for a learner's permit to 16 to cover the 2 years driving in their last 2 final years and after this if they pass successfully (obvious exams over the 2 years and a final exam with a pass rate of 90% etc then it grants them a novice license where they continue to driver accompanied for another year at least.

For existing people out of school it's a bit tougher but I suggest set a date eg Jan 2015.
Announce no more learner licenses will be handed out. People outside of school must attend a weekly driving lesson where they are given instructions on how to drive etc, over a period of 6 months they are tested twice and a final exam at the end of the year with a pass rate of 90% again.
Only then are they given a novice license to drive on the road accompanied by a full driver say for 6 months etc. I know it conflicts with what the students are going through but remember students will receive this training as part of their education etc.

Or they can continue to implement it in bits and drabs like what they doing now and it should only take another 20 years or so to complete it.

keithclancy

kippy wrote: »

There are a significant portion of the fully licensed driving population in this country who never sat a driving test in their lives, and a portion more who have never had a formal driving lesson.
There is a lot to be said for a retest or "refresher" course at some point, perhaps once a decade...........

And as I said above a proper driving test is required.

Enforcement is of course a given requirement in any licensing regime.

The Driving License Amnesty is a seperate issue, happened way back in 1979, thats over 30 years ago and only 60,000 people.

In 2011 there were 2,666,559 current issued driving licenses.
The Amnesty license holders account for 2.25% of the Total amount of drivers on the road (thats if their still alive or not too old to drive)

Unfortunately you cannot re-write the rules in that way, you could only put the requirement on new licenses and not on existing ones.

So any new requirement would only be valid for newly obtained licenses anyway.

Merch

Rasmus wrote: »

I don't agree with the penalty points for not displaying L plates. I have heard (now I can't prove this of course as it's only talk) that some drivers on the road are LESS patient with an L driver than without.
Reckon there is any truth to that? I don't really remember this happening myself but it's possible.

In fact, I think it would be more sensible to make the fault, one of driving without an L plate displayed, and maybe put a curfew on L drivers.
People shouldn't be forced to hide the L plate but to ensure they display their learner status.
and
Possibly even allow them to drive unaccompanied where they have displayed competency to drive by holding another full licence, like the man who said he lived alone but had a bike licence.(A kind of a partial restricted learner status)

I'd suggest adding an age dimension to that where people under a certain age (say 24) are accompanied anyway (In a form of full restricted learner status) as an older man/woman is more likely to be careful (I know there will be those who aren't) and I know when I was a young driver that I was careful (So I know lots of young men/women wont be reckless) .

I have not found that it is common for people with L plates to be harrased but it should be a point on the licence for anyone caught harrassing an L driver or a driver under formal instruction. (Maybe an additional point for harrasing any car, along with whatever else it might include).

The reality is people need to get around and it shouldn't be made prohibitively difficult or expensive to do so and the reality is, there are in many places no alternative services. Even in Dublin that is well served by buses, there are times and destinations that would make it not worthwhile to undertake a journey at all as either journeys are too long by bus (radial system) or there is no service (odd hours).

But I think it may be as much to do with getting people out of cars and onto non existant public transport, in other words, stay at home.

The fact is, accidents happen at a certain times, rather than try eliminate this possiblity by dissallowing people from driving, where people will then ignore the rules as they are unenforced/unenforceable (most of the time) and because ther is no alternative, instead provide alternative times when they can carry out their business. late at night not being one of them.

kippy wrote: »

There are a significant portion of the fully licensed driving population in this country who never sat a driving test in their lives, and a portion more who have never had a formal driving lesson.
There is a lot to be said for a retest or "refresher" course at some point, perhaps once a decade...........

And as I said above a proper driving test is required.

Enforcement is of course a given requirement in any licensing regime.

I disagree, I used to think so, but if someone has passed the test and displays continued competence or increased competence then why should they re-sit the test.
I suggest that if someone has committed a serious enough road traffic offence then they should have their licence removed and returned to "Full Learner" status with full limitations and be required to re-sit the test then.
This would have the double effect of discouraging dangerous and stupid driving practices, as I have seen them often enough.

I also think the restricted full licence is a good idea, but calling it "N" instead of "R" is silly, where I believe a green R is displayed for a period of time in the vehicle of a person that has passed the test in Northern ireland, i think for commonality, we should display a red R, R for restricted, red to differentiate us from their green.

djimi

kippy wrote: »

There are a significant portion of the fully licensed driving population in this country who never sat a driving test in their lives, and a portion more who have never had a formal driving lesson.
There is a lot to be said for a retest or "refresher" course at some point, perhaps once a decade...........

And as I said above a proper driving test is required.

Enforcement is of course a given requirement in any licensing regime.

Have you got any stats on this? Id say the amount of drivers on an amnesty license is nowhere near as significant as people like to make it out to be when they bring it up.

Edit: I see its already been mentioned above. Tiny minority.

R.O.R

Merch wrote: »

In fact, I think it would be more sensible to make the fault, one of driving without an L plate displayed, and maybe put a curfew on L drivers.
People shouldn't be forced to hide the L plate but to ensure they display their learner status.
and
Possibly even allow them to drive unaccompanied where they have displayed competency to drive by holding another full licence, like the man who said he lived alone but had a bike licence.(A kind of a full learner status)

I'd suggest adding an age dimension to that where people under a certain age (say 24) are accompanied anyway (In a form of restricted learner permit status) as an older man/woman is more likely to be careful (I know there will be those who aren't) and I know when I was a young driver that I was careful (So I know lots of young men/women wont be reckless) .

I have not found that it is common for people with L plates to be harrased but it should be a point on the licence for anyone caught harrassing an L driver or a driver under formal instruction. (Maybe an additional point for harrasing any car, along with whatever else it might include)



I disagree, I used to think so, but if someone has passed the test and displays continued competence or increased competence then why should they re-sit the test.
I suggest that if someone has committed a serious enough road traffic offencet hen they should have their licence removed and returned to "Full Learner" status with full limitations and be required to re-sit the test then.
This would have the double effect of discouraging dangerous and stupid driving practices, as I have seen them often enough.

Rather than the above, how about we have a simple competency test. If you pass that then you are able to drive by yourself. If you fail, or haven't yet sat the competency test, then you are only allowed to drive if accompanied?

Sounds like a fairly simple solution to me - why hasn't anyone thought of that before.

djimi

Merch wrote: »

Possibly even allow them to drive unaccompanied where they have displayed competency to drive by holding another full licence, like the man who said he lived alone but had a bike licence.(A kind of a full learner status)

Like when they pass the driving test you mean? We dont have a tiered learner system in this country; either you are fully licensed or you are not. Its not hard to pass the test and it doesnt exactly take years either; if someone is a competant driver then they will be fully licensed within a year.

Merch wrote: »

I'd suggest adding an age dimension to that where people under a certain age (say 24) are accompanied anyway (In a form of restricted learner permit status) as an older man/woman is more likely to be careful (I know there will be those who aren't) and I know when I was a young driver that I was careful (So I know lots of young men/women wont be reckless) .

Age doesnt really come into it when it comes to learning. Ive seen people in their 40s who cant even make the car go in a straight line.

kippy

djimi wrote: »

Have you got any stats on this? Id say the amount of drivers on an amnesty license is nowhere near as significant as people like to make it out to be when they bring it up.

Edit: I see its already been mentioned above. Tiny minority.

Look at the figures again.
Significant portion of fully licensed drivers on the roads have never sat a test and as I said up until recently you never had to get a driving lesson before sitting a test so how many more drivers have never had any formal lessons whatsoever?

Please Kill Me

keithclancy wrote: »

In that case, your priority should be passing your test.

You say you need a car, therefore have everything in place you need to have a car.

Easier said than done if the person is unemployed and money isn't there!

furtzy wrote: »

Driving unaccompanied or no valid NCT then the car should be confiscated on the spot. Amazing how this would focus the mind to be compliant

I disagree. My OH has a provisional and drives the car unaccompanied because I'm not around when she's dropping the kids to school or collecting them. The school is 5 miles away, no bus route, no other kids where we live go to this school - how else is she supposed to transport a 2 year old and a 6 year old around? IF her car was seized (it's a cheap runaround) I'd simply get her another one. There are ways around these stupid laws!! Sometimes, just sometimes people drive unaccompanied because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to. As for her doing the driving test, she has a date, it's after Christmas and until then she will continue to drop the kids to and from school unaccompanied.

Our man in Havana

More laws that won't be enforced. When was the last time you have seen a Garda checkpoint? Even then there is not the will to enforce.

RSA,,Yawn!

djimi

kippy wrote: »

Look at the figures again.
Significant portion of fully licensed drivers on the roads have never sat a test and as I said up until recently you never had to get a driving lesson before sitting a test so how many more drivers have never had any formal lessons whatsoever?

60k out of 2.5m is not a significant portion, and its questionable how many of those 60k are even still driving given that it is 30 years later and from what I can gather a lot of those licenses were given out to older people who had been driving for years (hence the amnesty).

djimi

Please Kill Me wrote: »

I disagree. My OH has a provisional and drives the car unaccompanied because I'm not around when she's dropping the kids to school or collecting them. The school is 5 miles away, no bus route, no other kids where we live go to this school - how else is she supposed to transport a 2 year old and a 6 year old around? IF her car was seized (it's a cheap runaround) I'd simply get her another one. There are ways around these stupid laws!! Sometimes, just sometimes people drive unaccompanied because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to. As for her doing the driving test, she has a date, it's after Christmas and until then she will continue to drop the kids to and from school unaccompanied.

Okay, explain how it is a stupid law to not have learners drivers, who for the most part will be inexperienced and could potentially be dangerously incompetant behind the wheel, not allowed to drive on the road unsupervised until they pass their test? Point out why you think that anyone, regardless of exprience or ability, should be allowed to drive a car as they please without restriction?