milking parlour

TheSunderz

hi all
any one know the average price per unit for a new 12 unit parlour for new entrant with ARCs, sequential baling, no jars, manual drafting(air-driven gates), individual feeders, 8000 litre bulk tank (70 cows??), straight rump rail.

farmerjack

How long is a piece of string, speaking as a new entrant myself, I started pricing 12 months ago and only finalised a deal there tonight, 20 unit stall work, 8 units to begin with I will add on when/if I can afford it. For the set up your talking about I would say at least 4000 a unit. But to be honest that's just a guess I didn't even bother pricing acrs, feeders, bailing etc. I concentrated on infrastructure, parlour lay out and COWS

Dairynewbie

TheSunderz wrote: »

hi all
any one know the average price per unit for a new 12 unit parlour for new entrant with ARCs, sequential baling, no jars, manual drafting(air-driven gates), individual feeders, 8000 litre bulk tank (70 cows??), straight rump rail.

I got prices between 4250 to 8500 per unit.
Varying levels of automation. Get a wish list together and a spec and send it to the manufactures. You would be well looked after.

farmerjack

New entrants giving 4250 a unit is nuts. Get your cows and grazing infrastructure right before even entertaining any form of automation or frills, cows and grass fill the tank not acrs, bailing, fancy feeders etc..

Dairynewbie

farmerjack wrote: »

New entrants giving 4250 a unit is nuts. Get your cows and grazing infrastructure right before even entertaining any form of automation or frills, cows and grass fill the tank not acrs, bailing, fancy feeders etc..

I agree, however I think putting in frills make the routeen easier then you can pre wash, foremilk etc. improved cow health will put good quality milk in tank.
Processors will be looking for good quality milk. Second hand parlours will have their problems.

whelan1

buy the dairy farmer magazine plenty of prices etc on new parlours in that

maxxuumman

farmerjack wrote: »

New entrants giving 4250 a unit is nuts. Get your cows and grazing infrastructure right before even entertaining any form of automation or frills, cows and grass fill the tank not acrs, bailing, fancy feeders etc..

Amy new entrant starting from scratch is mad. But if they are starting from scratch and if they are in their twenties or early thirties, I think it's mad not to put it in right.
I
A good parlour put in can last 20+ yrs. say 4000 per unit over 20 years is €200 per yr or 66cent per day for 300 days/ yr. ie 8 cent per cow per day. and you get to work in some comfort
Vs
2000 per unit = 4 cent per cow/day to work in misery every day

farmerjack

I'm not against puting in a good parlour, but keep it basic for the first couple of years until you get your cows and grazing infrastructure right. Cash flow for any new entrant or expanding dairy farmer is tight, with that in mind should the focus not be in getting the milk into the tank, a good basic parlour will do that, add ons, automation feeding etc can be more or less just be added when the cash is on hand.

Skiup

Putting in a new parlour here at the minute. I would be of the opinion to put in as much automation now as you can to make your life easier. Our old parlour is 32 years old, too small and cramped and not worth upgrading. When pricing new parlours we decided to go for the whole package as the add ons such as auto id,auto washers etc tend to cost significant amounts of money that generally isn't lying around as spare change! This money always goes somewhere else on the farm and you could find yourself waiting a long time for the upgrades. Contact a number of the companies and I'm sure they will call to you and give you your options. When we were pricing we found that there is a lot of competitiveness in the market. The other thing to remember is the more you get now the more flexible they are on price and the more eager to deal.

farmerjack

Skiup wrote: »

Putting in a new parlour here at the minute. I would be of the opinion to put in as much automation now as you can to make your life easier. Our old parlour is 32 years old, too small and cramped and not worth upgrading. When pricing new parlours we decided to go for the whole package as the add ons such as auto id,auto washers etc tend to cost significant amounts of money that generally isn't lying around as spare change! This money always goes somewhere else on the farm and you could find yourself waiting a long time for the upgrades. Contact a number of the companies and I'm sure they will call to you and give you your options. When we were pricing we found that there is a lot of competitiveness in the market. The other thing to remember is the more you get now the more flexible they are on price and the more eager to deal.

Fair point, but I presume as your are replacing an old parlour and you are an established dairy farmer. Speaking from my own experience as a new entrant and after talking to other new entrants at group meetings etc. channeling money into the grazing infrastructure first and building a parlour with the ability to take further add ons/expansion just makes more sense. There is no point in having a parlour worth 200000K and not being able to get cows to grass or worse not being able to grow grass because essentials such as soil fertility and reseeding was not properly looked at.

By the way if you are meeting the bank man and you start talking about feeders, auto id, cluster removers before cows, grass and grazing infrastructure they will run a mile.

Skiup

Fully agree with you there. Having everything set up correctly will make life easier regardless of parlour. No harm going to the bank with a few options in mind and see what there willing to do. Half the battle with a parlour is making sure you have a long enough and deep enough pit for the future this will ensure comfort for the cow and user. As you say it depends on how well set up the rest of the farm is and the size of loan he's willing to take on. I know the banks aren't willing to gor for anything longer than 10 years so this will be limiting as well. Once he talks to the manufacturers he won't be long getting an idea of what's in and what's out

Dairynewbie

Skiup wrote: »

Fully agree with you there. Having everything set up correctly will make life easier regardless of parlour. No harm going to the bank with a few options in mind and see what there willing to do. Half the battle with a parlour is making sure you have a long enough and deep enough pit for the future this will ensure comfort for the cow and user. As you say it depends on how well set up the rest of the farm is and the size of loan he's willing to take on. I know the banks aren't willing to gor for anything longer than 10 years so this will be limiting as well. Once he talks to the manufacturers he won't be long getting an idea of what's in and what's out

Ulster bank will do 18 years if persuaded. But if you can go shorter then you would save on interest.

whelan1

Dairynewbie wrote: »

Ulster bank will do 18 years if persuaded. But if you can go shorter then you would save on interest.

on what milk price are you basing your figures for the bank?

st1979

Dairynewbie wrote: »

Ulster bank will do 18 years if persuaded. But if you can go shorter then you would save on interest.

My opinion is to always borrow over the max term and then pay it off early if you can thus saving interest and you look like a great customer.
Its a lot harder to renegotiate the term of the loan if your under pressure and your riskyness in the banks eyes rises.
Unless the loan is fixed interest their is no penalty for early repayments. Plus it gives you options if some other opportunity arises

mf240

Great value to be had with secondhand milking machines.



18 years paying for a milking machine ffs.

Farfield

I put in a new 10 point parlour last autumn into a new shed purpose built attached onto side of the cubicle sheds so all under 1 roof. I made the pit long enough though for 14 points. I put in a new basic parlour with orby air feeders and i did go with cluster removers and digital meters. I have to say its a great wee simple parlour and i would rate it big time.
The only thing i would like and maybe will get to it eventually would be an auto wash system as it takes me probably 15-20 minutes washing and rinsing the system morning and night-bit of a pain.
Do any of you guys rate or have auto washers for the system?

Dairynewbie

whelan1 wrote: »

on what milk price are you basing your figures for the bank?

People on here are always looking to see the figures... Ones expectation of what can constitute a living varies greatly. As any business being efficient improves profit.
I was once told "turn over Is for vanity, profit is for sanity" like the fellows looking to milk 300+ cows turn over is may not pay the bills.
People are drunk with the idea of being the biggest in their area but like the housing boom the lads that were the biggest are now gone. Loans are there to develop the business and if you don't either take the plunge in one big step or do it bit by bit then you will be left behind.

Dairynewbie

mf240 wrote: »

Great value to be had with secondhand milking machines.



18 years paying for a milking machine ffs.

I would expect to have a machine longer than 18 years. But I was only pointing out that banks will go over the 10 to 15 years if you are a good customer.

Timmaay

farmerjack wrote: »

How long is a piece of string, speaking as a new entrant myself, I started pricing 12 months ago and only finalised a deal there tonight, 20 unit stall work, 8 units to begin with I will add on when/if I can afford it. For the set up your talking about I would say at least 4000 a unit. But to be honest that's just a guess I didn't even bother pricing acrs, feeders, bailing etc. I concentrated on infrastructure, parlour lay out and COWS

Interesting, putting in only 8 for now but leaving space for 20 in total! You'd usually hear of people only leaving expansion room for say 4 extra units, which is hardly worth it. Who did ya go for, and ya mind sharing what it's set you back per unit?

I'm in a position that I think something similar would be the way to go forward, about 80cows now, with definitely room for 100, but with a big enough landblock joining me that I could possible rent long term if the opportunity came up (but equally so that might never happen!). So right at the minute I'm thinking 10units with space for 20. Anyone able to give me a rough price for the likes of a basic Dairymaster swingover would be (http://www.dairymaster.ie/milking-parlours/milking-parlours/swiftflo-intro/). I probably wont bother with any extras at all to get started out (still lucky enough to have help in the parlour if needs be at the minute!).

Feeders are the only thing I haven't fully decided on, I'll more than likely be going with basic pig feeders, simple and cheap, but how well they will suit my split spring/winter system. I've worked out I need 24winter milkers to hit my contract supply, so that's where automatic feeders and a full auto ID system would make since, esp for any relief milking. However I could just install individual cables on the pig feeders, and just mark the winter milkers etc.

Timmaay

mf240 wrote: »

Great value to be had with secondhand milking machines.

For a 6/8 unit, certainly, you'd pickup one for almost nothing now, great way to save your cash for stock/infrastructure etc! But bigger say 12units+, not nearly as many around. The DES grant doesn't cover 2nd hand parlours though?

In terms of bulk tanks, I'll certainly agree with ya, I priced up a 1000gls refurbished icebank at the ploughing, it was coming in 1/2 the price of a new one, and I'm fairly sure the chap told me I could get the grant on it also.

mf240

Timmaay wrote: »

For a 6/8 unit, certainly, you'd pickup one for almost nothing now, great way to save your cash for stock/infrastructure etc! But bigger say 12units+, not nearly as many around. The DES grant doesn't cover 2nd hand parlours though?

In terms of bulk tanks, I'll certainly agree with ya, I priced up a 1000gls refurbished icebank at the ploughing, it was coming in 1/2 the price of a new one, and I'm fairly sure the chap told me I could get the grant on it also.

Put in a ten unit second hand in 08 10500 +vat with new stallwork big enough for 16 units all new rubber and a new wash down pump. Its a great machine with swingover arms and all. I got no grant so cant tell you about that.

I put in the pig feeders and there grand, fration of price of the others, but you cant target individual cows so you end up averaging it out as best you can.

Timmaay

I was actually looking at the pig feeders, would you get away with putting in a manual override system, just a simple rope and pully, coming back to the pit for each feeder? You get in one or two winter milkers in the row and you give them the extra pull separate. Our feeders are basically like this at the minute, well all individual manual rope however they are cashman ones with a stupidly heavy spring on them which makes it a pain in the hole ha!

KCTK

Timmaay wrote: »

For a 6/8 unit, certainly, you'd pickup one for almost nothing now, great way to save your cash for stock/infrastructure etc! But bigger say 12units+, not nearly as many around. The DES grant doesn't cover 2nd hand parlours though?

In terms of bulk tanks, I'll certainly agree with ya, I priced up a 1000gls refurbished icebank at the ploughing, it was coming in 1/2 the price of a new one, and I'm fairly sure the chap told me I could get the grant on it also.

No grants on second hand tanks i'm afraid, if you can get d grand its 40% off cost of new one so then nearly same price as d refurbished second hand tank. I've done deal for new parlour and tank subject to grant approval in last few weeks, all in after grant on new it is only marginally more expensive than second hand, its 14 unit, very hard to find that size at d moment second hand, would have probably had to splice 2 second hand units together and i decided that wasn't something i really wanted to do when new almost same price after grant, but sure everyone is different and got their own ideas!!!!

mf240

KCTK wrote: »

No grants on second hand tanks i'm afraid, if you can get d grand its 40% off cost of new one so then nearly same price as d refurbished second hand tank. I've done deal for new parlour and tank subject to grant approval in last few weeks, all in after grant on new it is only marginally more expensive than second hand, its 14 unit, very hard to find that size at d moment second hand, would have probably had to splice 2 second hand units together and i decided that wasn't something i really wanted to do when new almost same price after grant, but sure everyone is different and got their own ideas!!!!

roughly how much is the 14 unit before grant. (pm if you wish)

mf240

Timmaay wrote: »

I was actually looking at the pig feeders, would you get away with putting in a manual override system, just a simple rope and pully, coming back to the pit for each feeder?

No the way the pig feeders work is they hold a feed at a time and there is a censor on the feeder at the end furthest from the bin, when this feeder empties the auger kicks in and refills all the feeders.

Best thing in your situation would be to seperate the winter milkers in the shed and let them in first and give them a double feed.

td5man

mf240 wrote: »

Great value to be had with secondhand milking machines.



18 years paying for a milking machine ffs.

put in a secondhand parlour here 11 years ago paid £4000 it (parlour with jars,auger & feeders,washdown hose,plate cooler,milk tank.)
had to regas the tank and replace a few of the feed pans.
built a new shed for the parlour and 4 calving pens and fitted the machine myself all done for £10k including the machine.

farmerjack

Timmaay wrote: »

Interesting, putting in only 8 for now but leaving space for 20 in total! You'd usually hear of people only leaving expansion room for say 4 extra units, which is hardly worth it. Who did ya go for, and ya mind sharing what it's set you back per unit?

I'm in a position that I think something similar would be the way to go forward, about 80cows now, with definitely room for 100, but with a big enough landblock joining me that I could possible rent long term if the opportunity came up (but equally so that might never happen!). So right at the minute I'm thinking 10units with space for 20. Anyone able to give me a rough price for the likes of a basic Dairymaster swingover would be (http://www.dairymaster.ie/milking-parlours/milking-parlours/swiftflo-intro/). I probably wont bother with any extras at all to get started out (still lucky enough to have help in the parlour if needs be at the minute!).

Feeders are the only thing I haven't fully decided on, I'll more than likely be going with basic pig feeders, simple and cheap, but how well they will suit my split spring/winter system. I've worked out I need 24winter milkers to hit my contract supply, so that's where automatic feeders and a full auto ID system would make since, esp for any relief milking. However I could just install individual cables on the pig feeders, and just mark the winter milkers etc.

I'm putting in a dairymaster parlour eight units all plumbing, wash down pump no plate cooler trying to organise one of them with the bulk tank crowd as part of a deal. 2725 a unit simple machine no extras.

Stall work 13k this includes a straight steel trough rather than individual feeders which makes is dearer than normal. 2 foot 2 centres.

The reason I have left space for 20 is simple I have a good sized land block around the parlour that could comfortably milk 160 cows off of it and I want to leave my options open. I will consider automation etc.. as I increase the amount of units in the parlour, for the time being I taught it prudent to channel money into grazing infrastructure and soil fertility first.

When building a parlour the cost of putting in a pit big enough 14/18/20 units is negligible in the larger scale of the project.

mf240

td5man wrote: »

put in a secondhand parlour here 11 years ago paid £4000 it (parlour with jars,auger & feeders,washdown hose,plate cooler,milk tank.)
had to regas the tank and replace a few of the feed pans.
built a new shed for the parlour and 4 calving pens and fitted the machine myself all done for £10k including the machine.

Thats savage value. my price above was them fitting the machine and I forgot to say it included the meal troughs with all new bottoms the vacum pump was replaced a couple of years before I bought it and would be big enough if I ever go to the 16 units.

pajero12

Please excuse my ignorance with regards to dairying in general, My knowledge only stretches as far as what I've read on here, But surely provided land is fairly central around the yard, A robot must be a good option considering prices quoted for normal parlours here so far?

funny man

Dairynewbie wrote: »

I agree, however I think putting in frills make the routeen easier then you can pre wash, foremilk etc. improved cow health will put good quality milk in tank.
Processors will be looking for good quality milk. Second hand parlours will have their problems.

putting frills on just makes her look pretty. parlours under 16 units don't need ACRs. plenty of guys still working in small parlours with no "frills" and producing top quality milk.

People on here are always looking to see the figures... Ones expectation of what can constitute a living varies greatly. As any business being efficient improves profit.
I was once told "turn over Is for vanity, profit is for sanity" like the fellows looking to milk 300+ cows turn over is may not pay the bills.
People are drunk with the idea of being the biggest in their area but like the housing boom the lads that were the biggest are now gone. Loans are there to develop the business and if you don't either take the plunge in one big step or do it bit by bit then you will be left behind.

now that sounds like a statement that i heard during the boom. Thanks but no thanks i'm happy enough to be left behind!

td5man

If building a new parlour get someone with or hire good shuttering pans for the walls far better than blocks and plaster and
not a lot more expensive.

freedominacup

td5man wrote: »

If building a new parlour get someone with or hire good shuttering pans for the walls far better than blocks and plaster and
not a lot more expensive.

Is it even more expensive?

case 956

new entrant to milk here myself. built a 8 unit parlour with room for 14, machine and stallwork secondhand

Bulk tank secondhand

Reared all my heifers as calves from 3 weeks old,

sold my sucklers to fund for more cows.

low cost set up with machine and shed done for 32k

no fancy frills at all, basic and simple

get COWS and GRAZING right as that what makes the money not a fricking parlour

and all in all i bought all my quota, applied for the free quota but was turned down

LOW COST SIMPLE SYSTEM GET MILK OUT AND COWS TO GRASS ASAP

farmerjack

Dairynewbie who's going to be left behind?

Is it the lads who invested big in a fancy parlour and spent 10k a unit, or is it the lads who focused on grazing infrastructure, soil fertility, reseeding and good quality genetics. I know where most of my energy is going, remember cows and grass fill the tank, give these two the attention they deserve, to be honest I'm baffled when I hear of a new entrants talking about acrs, auto wash etc.

I know from dealing with the bank recently in financing my parlour they want to hear farmers talking about grass, cows and a nice simple parlour no frills or fancy stuff, and the longest term I came across was 15 years with a possibility of a 2 year moratorium on capital repayments.

Timmaay

I'll fully agree with you there farmerjack, but I think from reading Dairynewbies other thread, he does at least have alot of the paddock infrastructure etc in place!

have2flushtwice

]
My uncle built a parlour a few years ago, and has retired, he was trying to sell it but didn't. Any interest? Id have to ask him about it though. Its the type where the operator is in the pit, cows both sides, 6 each i think, not sure about auto feeders. Bulk tank there too.

mf240

Timmaay wrote: »

I'll fully agree with you there farmerjack, but I think from reading Dairynewbies other thread, he does at least have alot of the paddock infrastructure etc in place!

I get the impression that money isnt a problem with dairynewbie.

Farmer jack your making a lot of sense no point in trying to do it all day one, can treat youself to the bells and whistles when you get everything else paid for.

case885

Has anyone applied for the DES grant? I applied the 30th july but havent got anything back from them except a letter confirming they received it and are reviewing my application

mj28

wouldn't see anything wrong with taking out the loan for the milking parlour over 18 years, after the bad year we've just had a guy needs a bit breathing space, its been costly year,as regards going second hand route milking parlour wise its fine if vac pumps and motor are genuine the milking pipeline size will that be suitable for your setup, dont get me wrong i would all in favour of cheap and cheerful and at the end of the day all you want is something to get the milk to the tank but with a new parlour the company will stand under it after installation wheres second hand you have none of that, if i ever do a parlour whats most important for me is leaving room to add on to it down the road,ACR'S are a must anything beyond 12 units must have ACR'S for control reasons and you will have better cow care, i think the grant route for milking equipment would be a good idea spend 40000 and you get back 16000, not in favour of whistles but i suppose every fella has a case to argue, if guys think that whistles and bells will be helpull down the road for when they will be getting older thats fair enough, is a remote control for changing tv channels a luxury as having to get off the couch to push a button side of tv.

Tipp Man

mj28 wrote: »

wouldn't see anything wrong with taking out the loan for the milking parlour over 18 years, after the bad year we've just had a guy needs a bit breathing space, its been costly year,as regards going second hand route milking parlour wise its fine if vac pumps and motor are genuine the milking pipeline size will that be suitable for your setup, dont get me wrong i would all in favour of cheap and cheerful and at the end of the day all you want is something to get the milk to the tank but with a new parlour the company will stand under it after installation wheres second hand you have none of that, if i ever do a parlour whats most important for me is leaving room to add on to it down the road,ACR'S are a must anything beyond 12 units must have ACR'S for control reasons and you will have better cow care, i think the grant route for milking equipment would be a good idea spend 40000 and you get back 16000, not in favour of whistles but i suppose every fella has a case to argue, if guys think that whistles and bells will be helpull down the road for when they will be getting older thats fair enough, is a remote control for changing tv channels a luxury as having to get off the couch to push a button side of tv.

Will banks lend for a milking parlour over 18 years?? I'd be very surprised if they did, I'd be surprised if they did longer than 10 years - but have never tried obviously

farmerjack

Tipp Man wrote: »

Will banks lend for a milking parlour over 18 years?? I'd be very surprised if they did, I'd be surprised if they did longer than 10 years - but have never tried obviously

15 years max, with a possible 1 or 2 year moratorium on principal repayments depending on the amount borrowed and the term

Timmaay

case885 wrote: »

Has anyone applied for the DES grant? I applied the 30th july but havent got anything back from them except a letter confirming they received it and are reviewing my application

Ugh, typical civil "service"! I'm just popping mine in the post in the next week or so, I wont be expecting an answer in a hurry if yours is anything to go by!

keep going

a few humble opinions-1what ever you do get the cow flow right especially if you are going grass based.2 secondhand parlours are dearer than they look sometimes-very few have pumps and pipes to cater for over 10 units and parts such as relays/pumps have a limited working life.310 or 12 units is the limit working without feeders no matter how little you feed.4 14 is the max without cluster removers-very difficult to maintain cow milking time

freedominacup

keep going wrote: »

10 or 12 units is the limit working without feeders no matter how little you feed.4 14 is the max without cluster removers-very difficult to maintain cow milking time

I have been milking through a 15 unit with no ACRs and no feeders all my life. Bought 50 cows last year (2011) to re-stock after a clearout. It took them around 1 milking to settle down without meal incl 12 that had come from being milked in a rotary. TBH I'd say if you had ACRs on a 15 unit straight you'd spend most of your time standing around waiting for something to do. With our old herd the last year we recorded the herd average was 9200kgs. Feeders are completely unnessecary and ACRs only come into the equation when you are over 20 units on a double up.

Tipp Man

freedominacup wrote: »

I have been milking through a 15 unit with no ACRs and no feeders all my life. Bought 50 cows last year (2011) to re-stock after a clearout. It took them around 1 milking to settle down without meal incl 12 that had come from being milked in a rotary. TBH I'd say if you had ACRs on a 15 unit straight you'd spend most of your time standing around waiting for something to do. With our old herd the last year we recorded the herd average was 9200kgs. Feeders are completely unnessecary and ACRs only come into the equation when you are over 20 units on a double up.

I'm with keep going on this, 14 units or more and you need acr's

It grand in June at peak production but when they slacken off its then you realise just how much cows are over milked without them

Of course it depends in your pre milking routine, we draw every cow before every milking, washing any necessary. Skip the drawing and you will have more time for changing units

If you are by yourself or plan on having a pre milking routine then they are a necessity IMO

freedominacup

Tipp Man wrote: »

If you are by yourself or plan on having a pre milking routine then they are a necessity IMO

There's not much up with my pre-milking routine. Last cell count 27 Dec 171K not perfect but better than I saw a few days ago in a farm with a 10 unit machine C/W ACRs and meters. That one was 450k+ for the past few collections.

whelan1

i have 15 unit parlour with feeders and acrs, wouldnt be without the acrs now , great job... at the minute as i am putting on last unit the 1st one is coming off and by the time i have the next row stripped etc most of the first row is off , saves alot of time imo. also great job if you have to go out to scrapers etc during milking no fear of overmilking ... scc at the min 230,000 down from over 400,000 last year nothing to do with acrs

delaval

May I suggest a second hand parlour and tank. Forget all frills. I did this when I started and thought I would add all extras but never bothered just added pig feeders.
Instead I invested heavily in regrassing, fencing,water and rodways. Remamber that roads will cost yiu aprox. €20 per meter.
I would suggest go second hand and use your local dealer as he is the one you will need to call for any breakdown.
Remember keep your capital free as cashflow will be critical 'till you get established, thats my experience any way.
At all times use someone else's money and don't put yourself under too much pressure to repay in early years interest only if you can get it.

keep going

a question about vac pumps-how many units will a vp 77 drive.did a bit of homework since and see that its capacity is 1300 l per min so would assume it would do up to 14 but could be wrong

bt12

prob would get better than 1300ltrs with bigger pulleys, as far as i know new specs 12 would be max 2 vac pumps after that but still the more reserve you have the better

yellow50HX

Did anyone see the article in this weeks journal on the German parlours that come on the back of a lorry and can be leased or bought outright. Certainly looks like a good idea epically if you we're building up a herd and didn't want to have a mis sized parlour until you had the herd up to size. Also if it all goes to pot you wouldn't be saddled with a parlour that you can't shift.