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Scala - is it going to consign Java to legacy code

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    #62
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,970 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    croo wrote: »
    Well I mentioned Spring because it more than anything has been pushing the Java Stack forward.
    Yes. And it shows how Oracle have been incapable of doing that.
    But I don't see how Java is competing with Ajax? I work an an app with a java backend, swing front end and a ZK front end.

    Like the ZK & GWT frameworks? Perhaps I just mis-undertand?

    Is that a typo?
    Sun / Oracle put a lot of time / money into JSF 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 and 2.0

    But you'd be much better off not using it and putting your front end in JavaScript / Ajax and keep Java completely away from your Presentation Tier.
    I only looked at Scala very briefly about 4-5 years ago. I could see for certain types of problems - I think someone mentioned earlier "programming problems as opposed to say business problems - that's kinda what I thought but it was a brief look. Perhaps you might point to something that Scala does that Java just cannot do - by that I mean a problem it can solve that java can't.
    The reason why Scala is a game breaker is because it solves concurrency using a completely different approach. It also has tonnes of syntatic sugar.
    To me the attraction of java is not the language, but the huge eco system that's available around it. Things like (Spring) that took years to evolve. Not matter what problem (or business problem sat least because business software in the area I deal with) you have it's been addressed before!
    Yes you are right. But the majority of J2EE , JEE code bases become unmaintainable after a few years. Unless you have a few really good people - which is rare.

    I think what we are seeing the technology industry is a shrinking of dev teams. Why? Because they cost way less. Then if these people become more productive the cost is justified.

    So 9 Scala whizzes can beat a Java dev team of 20 and cost half the amount.


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    #63
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Yes. And it shows how Oracle have been incapable of doing that.
    Is your issue the java language or Oracle/Sun?

    You think Spring is "good" but "java" is bad. That makes zero sense to me.
    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    But you'd be much better off not using it and putting your front end in JavaScript / Ajax and keep Java completely away from your Presentation Tier.
    Jsp/Tiles?
    What exactly do you mean by "keep java away from presentation tier"?
    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Yes you are right. But the majority of J2EE , JEE code bases become unmaintainable after a few years. Unless you have a few really good people - which is rare.
    Ok so, lets say Scala becomes mainstream...you really dont think there will be crap, hard to maintain, legacy Scala apps in 15 years time?
    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    The reason why Scala is a game breaker is because it solves concurrency using a completely different approach. It also has tonnes of syntatic sugar.
    So go use node then then. All languages are better or worse at various things. Personally I happen to think that java does a pretty good job at being pretty good at everything.
    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    So 9 Scala whizzes can beat a Java dev team of 20 and cost half the amount.

    5 Java whizzes can beat a team of 9 Scala devs too.
    Whizzes are better than "normal" devs...hence them being a "whizz", n'est pas?


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    #64
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,970 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Is your issue the java language or Oracle/Sun?
    There are obvious shorting comings with Java when you compare it with alternatives.
    You think Spring is "good" but "java" is bad. That makes zero sense to me.
    I don't thing Java is bad at everything. There just now better alternatives.
    Jstp/Tiles
    What exactly do you mean by "keep java away from presentation tier"?
    JSP/ Tiles are architecturally inferior to a pure JavaScript approach. As I said keep Java away from the Presentation Tier. There is no need to hitting your server for new pages. The fat client is back.
    Ok so, lets say Scala becomes mainstream...you really dont think there will be crap, hard to maintain, legacy Scala apps in 15 years time?
    I don't see Scala becoming mainstream. We are going to be a fragmented world the next 5 years.
    All languages are better or worse at various things. Personally I happen to think that java does a pretty good job at being pretty good at everything.
    Absolutely. Java is a meat and 2 veg language. Whereas it used to be a language that offered major advantages. Now, it offers very litte advantages.
    5 Java whizzes can beat a team of 9 Scala devs too.
    Whizzes are better than "normal" devs...hence them being a "whizz", n'est pas?
    9 Scala whizzes will beat a 9 Java Whizzes.
    But it's not really about the people. It's the fact that JScala / Groovey / Clojure solves some problems with Java. Just like Java solved problems with C++.
    This is how technology evolves. Problems --> Solutions. Problems --> Solutions.


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    #65
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,970 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Scala provides a way to achieve comet architectures using Lift. What is the best way to do this in Java?


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    #66
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Scala provides a way to achieve comet architectures using Lift. What is the best way to do this in Java?

    Well considering Alex Russell admits it is to be depreciated in favor of web sockets, that's an irrelevant question to ask.


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    #67
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Comet.
    /disgusted noise
    aka Push for slow learners...


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    #68
    jester77
    Registered Users Posts: 11,262 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    Java is going nowhere any time soon. It's still the right tool for a lot of jobs, especially backend. Twitter recently migrated a chunk of their backend from Rails to Java due to the performance advantages that were on offer.


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    #69
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,970 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    jester77 wrote: »
    Java is going nowhere any time soon. It's still the right tool for a lot of jobs, especially backend. Twitter recently migrated a chunk of their backend from Rails to Java due to the performance advantages that were on offer.

    Twitter went to Scala.


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    #70
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,970 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    jester77 wrote: »
    Java is going nowhere any time soon. It's still the right tool for a lot of jobs, especially backend. Twitter recently migrated a chunk of their backend from Rails to Java due to the performance advantages that were on offer.
    What architectural advantage does it offer?


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    #71
    jester77
    Registered Users Posts: 11,262 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Twitter went to Scala.

    They moved their message queue to scala. More recently they moved their search engine over to a java based solution.
    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    What architectural advantage does it offer?

    Their engineering blog describes the advantages they have achieved.


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    #72
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,970 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    jester77 wrote: »
    Their engineering blog describes the advantages they have achieved.
    Java offers scaling advantages over Ruby. But Scala beats Java in Scaling.
    Does Java offer any major architectural advantages over other languages?


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    #73
    irishdude11
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭irishdude11


    Yammer moved from Scala back to Java.

    http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/11/yammer-scala
    https://gist.github.com/1406238


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    #74
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    This thread has turned into a slow motion car crash.


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    #75
    croo
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    For those, like myself, looking for some details on what the differences really are I found the following interesting
    http://www.infoq.com/articles/scala-java-myths-facts

    Some points of note i gleamed from it...
    Ownership of Java by SUN probably helped push java to evolve faster in the early days but as it matured it also raised a lot of risk questions, especially when Oracle came on the scene. OpenJDK is now usable and so the java world is, finally, beholden to none. Scala, I note, is owned and controlled by one firm. IS that a step back? Are we adding the risk back again?

    Scala is just the language. It would use the existing Java Servers and frameworks. Might that be a circle in a square hole type scenario? You might squeeze it in but you know it never should be there :)
    Do we need to wait until there is a full Scala stack - plus all the equivalent to all the java development tools.

    Another thing that strikes me as I read the code examples. Java is verbose and when standard patterns are used it can be quick to find your way around a new project. Scala looks like it can be pretty cryptic. I can see, just from this article, that it can be powerful when addressing specific problems but then i try to imagine a system with a few million lines of code and i can imagine a lot of creative coding that only the original developer can easily understand. It's probably not fair to blame the language if that happens but you know what they say - if it can be done it will be done.

    On a couple of java based foss software projects i work with what has happened is the application framework was extended to allow "scripts" to be initiated on defined application events. This tends to get used to extend the basic functionality - often with such things as for complex defaulting (for example applying complex pricing rules) and data entry validation. These scripts can be written in many dialects but groovy has become a favourite. I could definitely see scala being popular in such a role! i.e. Small distinct problems to be resolved.

    ps. @ChRoMe, I should probably have let this die okay but I had this written yesterday but forgot to hit post.


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    #76
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    croo wrote: »
    ps. @ChRoMe, I should probably have let this die okay but I had this written yesterday but forgot to hit post.

    :)

    Its one of the most informative and reasoned posts on the thread mate!


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    #77
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,970 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    If anyone has some Scala, Clojure or Groovey books that you don't want I'll take them.

    Thanks.


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    #78
    Evil Phil
    Registered Users Posts: 7,468 ✭✭✭Evil Phil


    Don't ask for a pm in thread please.


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