Property tax - Valuations/Letters - Greystones/Delgany etc

vinpaul

Following today's "doom and gloom" budget re the property tax valuation I was wondering if we could get some uniformity in the valuations of dwellings in Greystones. Greystones has probably the greatest range of price variations in Ireland, from small dwellings/apartments to the so-called "Mansions". We could set up a list of estates/roads/apartments/etc and try to see if there is any uniformity in valuations. The list of selling prices shown on the property register might give some idea, but with prices varying so much it would be nice to help one another get it right.

Blandpebbles

vinpaul wrote: »

Following today's "doom and gloom" budget re the property tax valuation I was wondering if we could get some uniformity in the valuations of dwellings in Greystones. Greystones has probably the greatest range of price variations in Ireland, from small dwellings/apartments to the so-called "Mansions". We could set up a list of estates/roads/apartments/etc and try to see if there is any uniformity in valuations. The list of selling prices shown on the property register might give some idea, but with prices varying so much it would be nice to help one another get it right.

Just organise a residents association GM and agree a valuation for all houses in your estate. Bingo.

matt-dublin

Charlesland crescent apartmenta as of 4pm today are only worth €50k each.
Houses are only worth €55k in charlesland

yes, the property tax that will result in a fire sale of properties like this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2243564/Firesale-Hamptons-estates-owners-try-unload-multimillion-dollar-homes-years-end.html

Robertr

I reckon a three bed Duplex in Charlesland is worth 150 -200k?

homer911

Getting a bit ahead of ourselves here..

The Property Tax isn't payable until 1/7/2013, and in the meantime, the revenue will be issuing guidelines on the valuation of property across the country

Self Assessment is due to be completed in May 2013, so lets see what the Revenue say before jumping the gun..

Rasmus

matt-dublin wrote: »

Charlesland crescent apartmenta as of 4pm today are only worth €50k each.
Houses are only worth €55k in charlesland

yes, the property tax that will result in a fire sale of properties like this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2243564/Firesale-Hamptons-estates-owners-try-unload-multimillion-dollar-homes-years-end.html

Where did you get this figure? A house in Charlesland Wood just sold for 190,000. I guess you're being tongue in cheek?

pixbyjohn

There is no harm in being prepared, as Vinpaul and Blandpebbles suggest. It is not like anything is carved in stone yet by anyone.

matt-dublin

Rasmus wrote: »

Where did you get this figure? A house in Charlesland Wood just sold for 190,000. I guess you're being tongue in cheek?

joking, but if everyone agrees in charlesland that their houses are worth less they will find it hard to charge us more!!!!

i live in an apartment, i haven't seen an apartment sell in charlesland for years, so its feasible to say that my apartment is worth nothing because i don't believe anyone in their right mind would ever buy an apartment in this country again.

Rasmus

matt-dublin wrote: »

joking, but if everyone agrees in charlesland that their houses are worth less they will find it hard to charge us more!!!!

i live in an apartment, i haven't seen an apartment sell in charlesland for years, so its feasible to say that my apartment is worth nothing because i don't believe anyone in their right mind would ever buy an apartment in this country again.

Can you just 'value' the house yourself? I don't know how it works. An apartment sold in the Grove for 120,000 this year. Before that, a house sold for 260,000. This is a great difference so how would uniformity be in the best interests for all in the estate?

matt-dublin

yeah its self valuation.

hannabanana

@ Matt Dublin, if you have a look on the property price register you will see that at least 3 apartments were sold in Seabourne View in 2012. Granted that's not a lot and not for huge amounts of money, but it's a bit silly to say that 'no apartments have been sold in years'.
And anyway, what's wrong with buying / living in apartments?!

matt-dublin

trying to get us lower property tax here folks not having an arguement about what our houses are worth!

Wicklowandy

hannabanana wrote: »

@ Matt Dublin, if you have a look on the property price register you will see that at least 3 apartments were sold in Seabourne View in 2012. Granted that's not a lot and not for huge amounts of money, but it's a bit silly to say that 'no apartments have been sold in years'.
And anyway, what's wrong with buying / living in apartments?!

Apartments are fine in city centres, but pointless anywhere else.

In a few years, houses and apartments built between 1996-2008 will be avoided in comparison to what came before. Also i believe far in the future, when development does happen again in ireland, apartments in cities will be larger, and houses wont sit on postage stamps.

If you were looking for a house today, would you buy a boom time built property, or an older house with a proper garden?

I know people will point out better insulation etc etc, but you can always change the fabric of a home. You cannot change the fact that a small site has been over developed.

Probably not best to say this on the charlesland forum though:pac:

2011

Wicklowandy wrote: »

Apartments are fine in city centres, but pointless anywhere else.

In a few years, houses and apartments built between 1996-2008 will be avoided in comparison to what came before. Also i believe far in the future, when development does happen again in ireland, apartments in cities will be larger, and houses wont sit on postage stamps.

If you were looking for a house today, would you buy a boom time built property, or an older house with a proper garden?

I know people will point out better insulation etc etc, but you can always change the fabric of a home. You cannot change the fact that a small site has been over developed.

Probably not best to say this on the charlesland forum though:pac:

+1
It will be interesting to see what happens with the property tax. Owning a very small home (apartment or house) may result in a much reduced rate. Time will tell.

A modern home is not necessarily well insulated. My house was built by Durkans (who are responsible for much of Charlesland) and I have had to spend considerable time, effort and money finishing the insulation job that they only started.

Greystones CAHWT

Hi there, I wonder if a member/organiser of the Charlesland Residents' Association might message me privately, please? Many thanks in advance.

youknowwho

I don't know if there is a residents association, each estate has a management company though and the owners are automatically members.

Greystones CAHWT

Thanks youknowwho. I met a couple of guys last year who said they were members of the residents' association but unfortunately, I've mislaid their numbers and I'm hoping to speak to someone from the group. Perhaps it's no longer in existence.

Honestly!

Most 2-beds in Charlesland 150k - €200k for the "Fine Gael - Labour fund the Fianna Fail banks, developers and wealthy bondholder appeal" AKA Property Tax :mad:

https://lpt.revenue.ie/lpt-web/valuation-guide/index.htm


That's €315 charge per annum, for eh, NOTHING! on top of management fees...

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/liability.html

2011

Honestly! wrote: »

That's €315 charge per annum, for eh, NOTHING! on top of management fees...

Yes, on top of many bills such as electricity, gas, and management fees all of which have nothing to do with property tax.

poldebruin

Is this for real or am I missing something. The only information you are asked for:
-The type of property (vague - not sure how much this can be linked to a value of property)
-The year it was built (vague - are pre 2000 properties inherently less valuable?)
-The location - this can be a good indicator, but by the looks of the map they have sectioned off large chunks of land.

A 4 bed 1600sq foot semi-detached house in Charlesland is in the same range as an 800 sq foot 2 bed semi-detached house in Newcastle?

There's got to be more to it than that surely?

grudgehugger

poldebruin wrote: »

Is this for real or am I missing something.

..........

There's got to be more to it than that surely?

I guess it is for real... just not very accurate. Looking at the property price register for house sales in my own estate in 2012 and comparing that to the Greystones info on the Revenue site, I'd say their site is two whole bands (so 100 grand) under a fair valuation of my property.

I'll be very tempted to take the Revenue's site as the basis on which I pay the tax.... can't really see why I wouldn't to be honest

cotton

Surely this can't be accurate, doesn't ask for size of house, land or anything else apart from type of property, year it was built & location which doesn't seem to matter as everything in the area seems to be getting the same valuation. 200,000 - 250,000.
Seriously though, they will have to come up with something better than this.

stevestevenson

Greystones CAHWT wrote: »

Thanks youknowwho. I met a couple of guys last year who said they were members of the residents' association but unfortunately, I've mislaid their numbers and I'm hoping to speak to someone from the group. Perhaps it's no longer in existence.

Maybe try @charleslandnews on twitter?

Greystones CAHWT

stevestevenson wrote: »

Maybe try @charleslandnews on twitter?

Thanks very much, Steve

LMC

Also noted that we now live in Charlesland, Kilcoole as per the revenue guidelines, am I missing something or did we get new addresses??

2011

LMC wrote: »

Also noted that we now live in Charlesland, Kilcoole as per the revenue guidelines, am I missing something or did we get new addresses??

Much of a muchness really.
I agree with revenue, I would not consider Charlesland to be in Greystones.
This position reduces the liability

Depending on where you are in Charlesland you may be closer to Kilcoole than Greystones.

Wicklowandy

Now we only have water charges to go yippee:)

Cerco

In my opinion this new Revenue website is less than useless in it's current form. Until the add categories to precisely define the type of property e.g. number of bedrooms, bathrooms, floor space etc etc etc etc etc it will remain so.
I assume Revenue rushed to get the site on line and will address the shortcomings later. I am very disappointed with the current effort as it is not what one would expect from Revenue who are the leaders in Government use of technology.
Revenue have warned that this is a self assessment tax, so they are not responsible for the valuation of individual properties.

eigrod

Cerco wrote: »

I assume Revenue rushed to get the site on line and will address the shortcomings later. I am very disappointed with the current effort as it is not what one would expect from Revenue who are the leaders in Government use of technology.

They can have the best IT system in the world, but if the information isn't behind it, then it's no good. There simply is no source for the information they need.

Only true way to get a proper valuation is to get a professional out to value it, and the Government aren't going to pay for that. A guy from daft.ie on Morning Ireland this morning was all but touting for that gig, where the cost would be at the homeowner's expense of course.

tp25

The price of materials to build 2/3 or 4 bed house in Charlesland, labour cost and nominal land value = property valuation. In todays climate they are between €50, 001 and €99, 000 (depends on size) no matter what size of property in Charlesland.
Revenue cannot object that. Checked in many other EU countries.

Ps: I won't engage in passive conversation where someone tries to tell me that they are worth more.

Put some gold/platinum coatings on the fittings and then properties in Charlesland may have increase in value. As at today they are not.

During the "Boom" times in 2006/2007/2008
2/3 bed houses in Charlesland were valued between €100, 000-180, 000 for the purpose of insurance and getting building rebuild if damaged by fire, these were the valuations made by banks: Bank of Ireland, Ulster Bank, Permanent TSB, AIB.

According to IMF and Irish Central Bank the prices of properties have fallen on avg ~41% thus the original valuations may need to be adjusted at least by that %.

mickdw

tp25 wrote: »

The price of materials to build 2/3 or 4 bed house in Charlesland, labour cost and nominal land value = property valuation. In todays climate they are between €50, 001 and €99, 000 (depends on size) no matter what size of property in Charlesland.
Revenue cannot object that. Checked in many other EU countries.

Ps: I won't engage in passive conversation where someone tries to tell me that they are worth more.

Put some gold/platinum coatings on the fittings and then properties in Charlesland may have increase in value. As at today they are not.

I think you are confusing property market value with build cost.
Are you suggesting that it is possible to build a 4 bedroom house including site value, materials and labour and associated fees and build it to comply with the current building regulations and have it complete for 100k?

tp25

mickdw wrote: »

I think you are confusing property market value with build cost.
Are you suggesting that it is possible to build a 4 bedroom house including site value, materials and labour and associated fees and build it to comply with the current building regulations and have it complete for 100k?

I'm not confusing anything. We are talking about tax here.

tp25

Yes, even cheaper. And let's realize there is not that many 4 bedroom houses in Charlesland.

Depreciation of the building also need to be added to decrease the value further.

****************

The least what people can do in Charlesland is to request copies of these official valuations from their solicitors or from the bank. you can all see how low they were and even that the banks have allowed to borrow multiple times more.

****************

mickdw

tp25 wrote: »

Yes, even cheaper. And let's realize there is not that many 4 bedroom houses in Charlesland.

Depreciation of the building also need to be added to decrease the value further.

****************

The least what people can do in Charlesland is to request copies of these official valuations from their solicitors or from the bank. you can all see how low they were and even that the banks have allowed to borrow multiple times more.

****************

Im not disagreeing re market values but in relation to build costs, you are so wrong you dont even know. Build costs depressed marginally due to cheaper labour of late. This was somewhat balanced by increasing material costs. Additionally, the current energy regs would likely add 15 to 20k onto the build cost of a 4 bed house versus those in force a few years back. There is no economic sense in building right now versus buying.
As I say, im not referring to valuations or current sale prices. They are what matter re this tax. Likewise I dont see why you should make a statement about build cost when you are a million miles off on price ecen if build cost was relevant to the discussion.

snowman224

TP25 - the property tax has NOTHING to do with rebuild costs.
It is solely based on the market value of the property.
They (government) had another option to place a value based on the site size, which would have resulted in a definitive value.
Instead they went with market value. Which, as we all know is what someone is prepared to pay, not static and open to opinion.

Bottom line, if Revenue massively undervalue your property and you pay the tax accordingly, you will not be penalised.

Cerco

snowman224 wrote: »

TP25 - the property tax has NOTHING to do with rebuild costs.
It is solely based on the market value of the property.
They (government) had another option to place a value based on the site size, which would have resulted in a definitive value.
Instead they went with market value. Which, as we all know is what someone is prepared to pay, not static and open to opinion.

Bottom line, if Revenue massively undervalue your property and you pay the tax accordingly, you will not be penalised.

Your bottom line statement is completely wrong. In the first instance Revenue do not value your property. They are providing an estimate, grossly inaccurate in many instances, of the average property price for categories in your electoral area. The onus is on the property owner to self assess the property value. If they massively underestimate the value and resultant tax then they will be subject to penalties.

snowman224

Cerco wrote: »

Your bottom line statement is completely wrong. In the first instance Revenue do not value your property. They are providing an estimate, grossly inaccurate in many instances, of the average property price for categories in your electoral area. The onus is on the property owner to self assess the property value. If they massively underestimate the value and resultant tax then they will be subject to penalties.

Am afraid to say, that I am far from wrong.
Yes, Revenue will provide an estimate. Which is to be considered an average for your area. If you have a massively larger house than what is considered average you should increase that estimate.
However,
(1) Charlesland is more or less a uniform estate
(2) We, the general public are not professional property evaluators
(3) If you have received a tax bill, and paid it, do you really see how you can be penalised ?
Revenue would have to present the case that you deliberately undervalued your property. You would not have done that by accepting their estimate.
Revenue have stated that if you accept their estimate there will no queries from them.
Also, how can a court of law to find that you deliberately misled revenue by accepting their estimate, given that you are not in a position to question it. The only way to verify their estimate is to have a professional evaluation done and there is no requirement for that in the tax return.

Cerco

snowman224 wrote: »

Am afraid to say, that I am far from wrong.
Yes, Revenue will provide an estimate. Which is to be considered an average for your area. If you have a massively larger house than what is considered average you should increase that estimate.
However,
(1) Charlesland is more or less a uniform estate
(2) We, the general public are not professional property evaluators
(3) If you have received a tax bill, and paid it, do you really see how you can be penalised ?
Revenue would have to present the case that you deliberately undervalued your property. You would not have done that by accepting their estimate.
Revenue have stated that if you accept their estimate there will no queries from them.
Also, how can a court of law to find that you deliberately misled revenue by accepting their estimate, given that you are not in a position to question it. The only way to verify their estimate is to have a professional evaluation done and there is no requirement for that in the tax return.

1. Charlesland is only part of the electoral area. The estimates are for average properties in the electoral area.

2. I agree most people are not professional property valuers. This is why this whole concept of self evaluation is ridiculous. We are the only country in the developed world which has chosen to use this method.
Only one other country, Bogota, uses this system. Yet again we find ourselves with strange bedfellows.

3. You are still making a false assumption. Owners will not receive a tax bill. They will not provide you with an estimate for your property. It is an estimate for an average property in your electoral area.
In my opinion it is less than useless. Paying the estimate will get you through the initial stages but should you sell a massively undervalued (your words) property in future at the market rate then you will be penalised.


Revenue have been given extreme powers in the legislation introducing the property tax. They will not have to present a case. You would be required to prove that you did not deliberately underestimate the value.
They can issue an attachment order to your bank account or other assets.
You would need deep pockets to fund a court challenge. I would love to see a constitutional challenge to this bill.

Annasopra

Cerco wrote: »

1. Charlesland is only part of the electoral area. The estimates are for average properties in the electoral area.

2. I agree most people are not professional property valuers. This is why this whole concept of self evaluation is ridiculous. We are the only country in the developed world which has chosen to use this method.
Only one other country, Bogota, uses this system. Yet again we find ourselves with strange bedfellows.

3. You are still making a false assumption. Owners will not receive a tax bill. They will not provide you with an estimate for your property. It is an estimate for an average property in your electoral area.
In my opinion it is less than useless. Paying the estimate will get you through the initial stages but should you sell a massively undervalued (your words) property in future at the market rate then you will be penalised.


Revenue have been given extreme powers in the legislation introducing the property tax. They will not have to present a case. You would be required to prove that you did not deliberately underestimate the value.
They can issue an attachment order to your bank account or other assets.
You would need deep pockets to fund a court challenge. I would love to see a constitutional challenge to this bill.

Valuations decided this year will stay until 2016. I would assume in 2017 there will be revaluations.

tp25

mickdw wrote: »

...

then how much are 2,3 and 4 beds properties in Charlesland worth in your opinion? Would you agree with
revenue?

Cerco wrote: »

I would love to see a constitutional challenge to this bill.

Would you be willing to go this route?
I can see that it is quiet easy to find advocates for revenue, why people are giving so much grace and acceptance to what you were told...

I think that properties in Charlesland are worth between €50,001 and €99,000 and this is the case I will try to make when dealing with revenue.

Not to mention that at the time of the purchase (no matter if this was a family home or investment) there was no such a tax, my cash flow projections did not include such expense.

tp25

snowman224 wrote: »

...

okay then what it have to do with?

It sounds like so many people just believe that revenue is right... - until someone wins against revenue and then ''some many people'' will realize that their belief was so wrong... Somehow it takes years to prove it or even centuries (in case of Ireland).

Annasopra

tp25 wrote: »

It sounds like so many people just believe that revenue is right... - until someone wins against revenue and then ''some many people'' will realize that their belief was so wrong... Somehow it takes years to prove it or even centuries (in case of Ireland).

To be honest - I have read your posts and it sounds to me like you believe you are right and everybody else is wrong.

tp25

mango salsa wrote: »

To be honest - I have read your posts and it sounds to me like you believe you are right and everybody else is wrong.

No, I think that revenue is wrong.

Could I ask, what do you think is the value of 2,3 and 4 beds properties in Charlesland estate as of this year?

matt-dublin

Does anyone else think that those who believe that the revenue have undervalued their property type may have over valued their home???

Seriously folks, there's a 1400 sq ft apt in the crescent 300k - won't sell, an 1100sq ft for 200k, won't sell. If you believe your home price is excessively more than what the revenue are telling you and you don't live in the burnaby you are likely grossly overvaluing your property

I own an apartment, I believe that noone will ever buy an apartment in Charlesland for 10 years. This to me means my apartment is valueless for the next 10 years.

I also pay in excess of 1500 in management fees, which cover common areas maintenance such as gardens, street lighting, water mains maintenance (which we paid for in the crescent to fix the whole estate one year), insurances, bins and recycling. Why the hell should I be paying the government more????

Jimjay

It states on the revenue site that if you sell your home for more than the submitted valuation then the revenue can look at back charging you the difference in property tax plus fines and interest.

Annasopra

tp25 wrote: »

No, I think that revenue is wrong.

Could I ask, what do you think is the value of 2,3 and 4 beds properties in Charlesland estate as of this year?

I don't know but under 100,000 is completely ridiculous

3 charlesland properties sold for 154,000, 210,000, and 150,000 this year
8 sold last year for 258,000, 120,000, 205,000, 260,000, 220,000, 168,000, 205,000, 190,000

2011

mango salsa wrote: »

3 charlesland properties sold for 154,000, 210,000, and 150,000 this year
8 sold last year for 258,000, 120,000, 205,000, 260,000, 220,000, 168,000, 205,000, 190,000

If that is the case you simply match your property with the average sale price of the most similar from the above. If this results in a lower price than what revenue have suggested you can make a very strong case to show that your (cheaper) valuation is more accurate.

vinpaul

Did some analysis for a number of estates in Greystones. All data taken from Property Sales prices 2010 to date.

Langerland

matt-dublin wrote: »

Does anyone else think that those who believe that the revenue have undervalued their property type may have over valued their home???

Seriously folks, there's a 1400 sq ft apt in the crescent 300k - won't sell, an 1100sq ft for 200k, won't sell. If you believe your home price is excessively more than what the revenue are telling you and you don't live in the burnaby you are likely grossly overvaluing your property

I own an apartment, I believe that noone will ever buy an apartment in Charlesland for 10 years. This to me means my apartment is valueless for the next 10 years.

I also pay in excess of 1500 in management fees, which cover common areas maintenance such as gardens, street lighting, water mains maintenance (which we paid for in the crescent to fix the whole estate one year), insurances, bins and recycling. Why the hell should I be paying the government more????

There have been some apartment sales. I've spoken to Sherry Fitz about it and it's mainly by older couples trading down. Very low prices of course. So you are probably in neg equity so on balance your apartment is worth a lot less than you can afford, but not worth 0 in the revenues eyes.....unfortunately..... I feel your pain.

loyatemu

http://www.daft.ie/property-tax/

seems to be reasonably accurate

(we only bought our house last year - I'd love to accept the Revenue's ludicrously low valuation, but as they have the PPR, and our stamp-duty return, I'll have to go with what we paid as the value).

cocker5

Anyone get their notification / letter from the revenue yesterday?
Got mine, valuation is actually kinda in line with what i expected...

€315 for the 6 months from July - Dec 2013... then €630 for 2014 :eek:

while its inline with what i expected... to go from €100 to €630 in two years is kinda annoying! :cool: