Minimum wage reduction

Idbatterim

Was wondering what peoples thoughts are on a possible minimum wage reduction outside of Dublin, mainly due to the lower cost of living. Kind of similar to the way Ps jobs in the Uk pay more in London, due to the higher cost of living. Was wondering how big an effect it might have on possibly winning back or simply winning things like manufacturing, call centres etc... Nobody in current employment would be subject to the lower rate. I know arguments will be made that welfare then has to be lowered etc, but leaving that aside for the moment, might it be a worthwhile venture?

Celticfire

Did the government not do this already with the stipulation that people already employed were to remain on the old minimum wage? Guess what happened....

BOHtox

Cookie_Monster

It needs to come down to reduce costs to business and restore some competitiveness but until welfare is reduced the gap is just to narrow to justify going out to work for a fiver an hour or whatever it may be

Idbatterim

It needs to come down to reduce costs to business and restore some competitiveness but until welfare is reduced the gap is just to narrow to justify going out to work for a fiver an hour or whatever it may be

i would have thought something like E6.95 per hour...

tony81

Idbatterim wrote: »

i would have thought something like E6.95 per hour...

Wouldn't it be nice to run a household on 6.95 an hour (as little as €250 a week)?

I'm not sure of the point of plucking figures out of the air. However fire up excel on your computer and figure out how much food, rent, electricity, phone, heating, transportation, healthcare, internet, presents, socialising (one night out or a meal out a week), work clothes, normal clothes, a rainy day fund, saving for retirement pension, a yearly holiday, etc. how much do you reckon you would have left?

Unless you're a foreign student working nights in a fast-food takeaway and sharing a room in a flat in parnell street, you probably won't be working for minimum wage in Dublin. I don't see why you'd want to reduce the rest of the country to such conditions.

flintash

tony81 wrote: »

I'm not sure of the point of plucking figures out of the air. However fire up excel on your computer and figure out how much food, rent, electricity, phone, heating, transportation, healthcare, internet, presents, socialising (one night out or a meal out a week), work clothes, normal clothes, a rainy day fund, saving for retirement pension, a yearly holiday, etc. how much do you reckon you would have left?

WOW :eek: i thought it's fair enaugh to work for food and roof over head ,but seemingly not... If everything is for everyone, where do you put rich (smarter??) ones?

Scortho

OP the dole has to come down by a significant amount before a person will even consider taking a minimum wage job.

The difference between what a single 25 year old who has been unemployed for a year gets on the dole (€188) and what he earns if he works 40 hours a week works out at an additional €3.50 an hour.

Thats before you take into account costs of working (transport too and from work etc) and USC and other related charges.

Now ask yourself Would you work 40 hours a week for an extra €3.50 an hour?

Maybe if the back to work allowance was extended to all of those unemployed, it might convince those unemployed for less than two years to take up employment at a reduced minimum wage. But with the current JSA/JSB rate very few if any would take those jobs up if they were available.

sock puppet

flintash wrote: »

WOW :eek: i thought it's fair enaugh to work for food and roof over head ,but seemingly not... If everything is for everyone, where do you put rich (smarter??) ones?

I like how you put "pension" into the same discretionary income bracket as "holidays". That's the kind of forward planning that'll get Ireland out of this mess.

tony81

flintash wrote: »

WOW :eek: i thought it's fair enaugh to work for food and roof over head ,but seemingly not... If everything is for everyone, where do you put rich (smarter??) ones?

The sad thing is, there was a time people working for a living and had occupational benefits such as an occupational pension, healthcare, etc.

As for phone, well good luck telling your employer you can't be contacted because you don't have a phone. A rainy day fund, I mean that in the context of someone could steal from you or something bad happens that you need a safety net. And you're using the internet now so clearly not only smart people can use the net..

tony81

sock puppet wrote: »

I like how you put "pension" into the same discretionary income bracket as "holidays". That's the kind of forward planning that'll get Ireland out of this mess.

I didn't even mean a lavish holiday abroad. I simply meant the opportunity to get away from home for a few days and be able to afford the fare & a hotel, rather than sit miserably at home with the heat off & wait to return to work simply because you don't have money left over to do anything.

The reality is there's a lot of non-working people in the country who avail of all those necessities and perks I mentioned for doing absolutely nothing, so I don't know why the op wants to reduce even more workers to the point they'd be better off relying on state support... and in fact if you're only earning minimum wage in many cases you would be better off on state support as it is.

The_Honeybadger

The current administration made a big statement by reinstating the old minimum wage when they came into power. Any climb-down whatsoever would be fraught with danger politically.

As for protecting those on the current minimum wage, watch their hours being slashed while new employees on the lower rate take their jobs. Cut everybody or cut nobody IMO.

Scortho

tony81 wrote: »

I didn't even mean a lavish holiday abroad. I simply meant the opportunity to get away from home for a few days and be able to afford the fare & a hotel, rather than sit miserably at home with the heat off & wait to return to work simply because you don't have money left over to do anything.

The reality is there's a lot of non-working people in the country who avail of all those necessities and perks I mentioned for doing absolutely nothing, so I don't know why the op wants to reduce even more workers to the point they'd be better off relying on state support... and in fact if you're only earning minimum wage in many cases you would be better off on state support as it is.

YOure spot on here! Have a look in the state benefits/welfare forum and read some of the questions that are posted.
Particularly around holidays and signing on dates. There are working people who haven't being able to afford a holiday in the last few years.
At the end of the day, welfare is there so that you don't fall into serious poverty (such as malnourishment) not to pay for your holiday.

seankb

So your telling me @8.65 an hour (current minimum wage) and working 40 hours a week I could only expect to earn €191.50 I think your calculations might be a little off. By the the way I'm a single 25 year old who was up until recently unemployed aNd minimum wage job because I would rather be doing something with my time than sitting at home doing nothing.

Idbatterim

I'm not sure of the point of plucking figures out of the air. However fire up excel on your computer and figure out how much food, rent, electricity, phone, heating, transportation, healthcare, internet, presents, socialising (one night out or a meal out a week), work clothes, normal clothes, a rainy day fund, saving for retirement pension, a yearly holiday, etc. how much do you reckon you would have left?

Unless you're a foreign student working nights in a fast-food takeaway and sharing a room in a flat in parnell street, you probably won't be working for minimum wage in Dublin. I don't see why you'd want to reduce the rest of the country to such conditions.

i plucked it out of "air" to put a ballpark figure i had in mind, i wasnt suggesting E5 per hour etc. I also refute you plethora of expenses, there are people on 60-70k that cant afford the following "a rainy day fund, healthcare, saving for retirement pension, a yearly holiday, etc." at the very least, Im sure they have also nearly or entirely scrapped a few other of the expenses you mentioned. I suggest doing it outside of dublin as the cost of living, mainly rent is substantially cheaper. Also it would give the other regions a competitive advantage over Dublin when it came to wages. Not very surprising that people are flocking to the main employment center Dublin now is it? This can be observed by the serious lack of rental properties in Dublin and the increasing rents...

drunkmonkey

There should be be a minimum wage set for people over 14 of €3ph with a possible minimum wage of €365 for 60hrs worked within 7 calendar days. (untangle the week/hour rate)

That's not low enough though for useless people, they should be €3ph with a €1.89ph rebate if employed outside of Dublin. (can work up to 84hrs per week.)

With this €3 per hour we will create wealth. People currently on social welfare can keep their weekly payments for the next 3 years but have to pay tax on total income.

A new USC charge of €365 should be brought in to cover all other charges. It has to be paid by anyone if over 21 and working. If you earn over €100,000 you have to pay €3650 per year if you earn over €1000,0000 you pay €36,500 and so on and so forth.

I think it's workable. Requires some faith though.

tony81

Idbatterim wrote:

Also it would give the other regions a competitive advantage over Dublin when it came to wages. Not very surprising that people are flocking to the main employment center Dublin now is it? This can be observed by the serious lack of rental properties in Dublin and the increasing rents...

Wow, so you reckon by slashing minimum wage outside of Dublin it will stop people from flocking to Dublin? You vote FG, don't you?

Plus, what does min. wage matter to someone on €60k, or someone on benefits? The only people who would be hurt by your proposal are the more vulnerable workers who have fewest employment rights as is. I'm all for a free economy but for it to exist taxes and benefits need to be low. Fix the tax/welfare system and min wage becomes a non issue

spank_inferno

Ireland's minimum wage has never been its problem.

Considering how the "elite" of this country behave & perform a "maximum wage" would be of much better use.

Scortho

seankb wrote: »

So your telling me @8.65 an hour (current minimum wage) and working 40 hours a week I could only expect to earn €191.50 I think your calculations might be a little off. By the the way I'm a single 25 year old who was up until recently unemployed aNd minimum wage job because I would rather be doing something with my time than sitting at home doing nothing.

I think you may have misread me/I haven't made my post clear enough.

If I work 40 hours a week on minimum wage I get €346.
The dole is €188.
The difference is an extra €158 per week.
On the dole, you don't work 40 hours a week...youre meant to look for work.
As a result the difference between working 40 hours a weak and being on the dole is a wage of €3.50 an hour.
While you yourself took a job on minimum wage, many people won't as they're not willing to work for an additional €3.50 an hour.

not yet

Idbatterim wrote: »

i would have thought something like E6.95 per hour...

Sweet jesus, How on earth can you justify paying someone e6.95 per hour.

How about a bowl of porridge. Rich get richer eh.

fasttalkerchat

€6.95 per hour wouldn't be so bad if you had 2 people getting 48 hour weeks. The problem is that you have people on 20/30 hour contracts that get no benefits so if they were on a lower hourly rate they would need to leave work unless more hours were available.

not yet

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

€6.95 per hour wouldn't be so bad if you had 2 people getting 48 hour weeks. The problem is that you have people on 20/30 hour contracts that get no benefits so if they were on a lower hourly rate they would need to leave work unless more hours were available.

Wouldn't be so bad....!! Yeah if you want no life. How can you expect a couple to work 96 hours for 667e per week when clowns in the dail earn that a day.

sock puppet

not yet wrote: »

Wouldn't be so bad....!! Yeah if you want no life. How can you expect a couple to work 96 hours for 667e per week when clowns in the dail earn that a day.

Wtf? There's nothing wrong with a 48 hour working week.

seankb

I see what you mean now. And I didn't mean it to sounld like I was slating your post. And I completely agree that a lot of people would not take a minimum wage job. Only the other day I heard about a person who I know who hasn't worked I 4 years who got a job interview and turned up wearing runners jeans and a hoody. It's to easy for people to get on dole and stay on it. Which I completely disagree with.

Icepick

tony81 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be nice to run a household on 6.95 an hour (as little as €250 a week)?

I'm not sure of the point of plucking figures out of the air. However fire up excel on your computer and figure out how much food, rent, electricity, phone, heating, transportation, healthcare, internet, presents, socialising (one night out or a meal out a week), work clothes, normal clothes, a rainy day fund, saving for retirement pension, a yearly holiday, etc. how much do you reckon you would have left?

Why should a person on a minimum wage be able to afford this in a real world?


..then again loads of people seem to think that even people on welfare should be able to buy all this.

not yet

sock puppet wrote: »

Wtf? There's nothing wrong with a 48 hour working week.

Sure there isn't.....if you live in China.

SCOOP 64

God, no!!!

Gringo180

sock puppet wrote: »

Wtf? There's nothing wrong with a 48 hour working week.

Ah will ye go away out of that ffs

murphaph

not yet wrote: »

Sweet jesus, How on earth can you justify paying someone e6.95 per hour.

How about a bowl of porridge. Rich get richer eh.

There's no legal minimum wage in Germany. Some sectoral agreements are in place but in my job (IT) you could legally be paid one cent an hour.

Shop workers would be on €5 an hour in many places in Germany. Just for comparison like

frankosw

murphaph wrote: »

There's no legal minimum wage in Germany. Some sectoral agreements are in place but in my job (IT) you could legally be paid one cent an hour.

Shop workers would be on €5 an hour in many places in Germany. Just for comparison like

Thats exactly why people join unions..so wagemasters cannot exploit workers for thier own ends.

murphaph

frankosw wrote: »

Thats exactly why people join unions..so wagemasters cannot exploit workers for thier own ends.

There's nobody exploiting me and I'm not in a union

Icepick

not yet wrote: »

Sweet jesus, How on earth can you justify paying someone e6.95 per hour.

How about a bowl of porridge. Rich get richer eh.

Nobody is stopping you from starting a business and paying €20 an hour.
Easier said than done, eh?

liffeylite

seankb wrote: »

I see what you mean now. And I didn't mean it to sounld like I was slating your post. And I completely agree that a lot of people would not take a minimum wage job. Only the other day I heard about a person who I know who hasn't worked I 4 years who got a job interview and turned up wearing runners jeans and a hoody. It's to easy for people to get on dole and stay on it. Which I completely disagree with.

I thought todays budget reduced the dole for people claiming longer than 6 months. Reduced to what though?? Cant find this info..


The dole in the uk is less than 100 euro a week....why so much higher here! Its efrectivley double! :-o

Idbatterim

I got slated by one poster for suggesting minimum wage of E6.95 i.e a 20% reduction, yet when you factor in the main costs for people, i.e rent, on site alcohol & cost of groceries combined, Id imagine they would be at least 20% cheaper than Dublin. So how can people in Dublin survive on it?

Stheno

liffeylite wrote: »

I thought todays budget reduced the dole for people claiming longer than 6 months. Reduced to what though?? Cant find this info..


The dole in the uk is less than 100 euro a week....why so much higher here! Its efrectivley double! :-o

Guaranteed job seekers benefit was cut from 12 to 9 months, after that time, people will be means tested for job seekers allowance.

mollymosfet

The problem is that the cost of living won't come down as people predict, because a lot of stores seem to price for those that can afford it, rather than discount for the poorer members of society who are facing the most pain from this budget.

It just wouldn't work, and only ideologues are seriously looking at it. We're never going to compete with places like China on that basis.

mollymosfet

Idbatterim wrote: »

I got slated by one poster for suggesting minimum wage of E6.95 i.e a 20% reduction, yet when you factor in the main costs for people, i.e rent, on site alcohol & cost of groceries combined, Id imagine they would be at least 20% cheaper than Dublin. So how can people in Dublin survive on it?

Mostly ****tier housing, ****tier lifestyles etc. and you know, the whole Inner City Poverty thing?

This isn't what we should be striving for.

Stheno

mollymosfet wrote: »

Mostly ****tier housing, ****tier lifestyles etc. and you know, the whole Inner City Poverty thing?

This isn't what we should be striving for.

In 1996 I worked 40 hours a week for £2 plus tips, came home with about £120 net.

Inflation at 100% in that time (and it's less than that) indicates that that would now be €204

I managed to pay weekly rent of £50, food, transport etc on that wage, and I lived in an ok place too. I didn't have a mobile, or sky, didn't have mad nights out etc, but I'd a nice life that I remember fondly

what's changed in less than 20 years? Tax was also higher then.

mollymosfet

The problem, as with most Right Wingers, is judging everyone's situation on your own. Many people have far more complicated situations than that, as they are the ones that suffer. Some people have always been able to get by on quite little. I don't see what's new about that. The good ones don't try to assume everyone can though.

You also can't judge cost of living solely off inflation, it doesn't work like that. There are a lot of other factors which have contributing to rising food costs for example. A lot more is required of people to keep up with the times now as well, and there are a lot more hidden costs.

A lot of the culture that was there in the 90s just isn't there anymore, too, so a lot of people do need to replace it with other forms of entertainment. Simply existing isn't that much of a step up. I'm curious as to what it is you actually did which constitutes a "Nice life"? Rose tinted glasses perhaps?

In general comparing an experience from a completely different era is a bad idea. The fact that you can only relate to your own past experiences, and not of those in current times who are struggling raising kids and making ends meets, says a lot about the mentality of a typical right winger to me.

Cookie_Monster

sock puppet wrote: »

Wtf? There's nothing wrong with a 48 hour working week.

the WTD would think otherwise

mollymosfet

liffeylite wrote: »

I thought todays budget reduced the dole for people claiming longer than 6 months. Reduced to what though?? Cant find this info..


The dole in the uk is less than 100 euro a week....why so much higher here! Its efrectivley double! :-o

Higher cost of living, council housing provided etc., but even then it's still too low. I don't know why people are looking to UK for an example. Just because you can get away with paying people that little doesn't mean you should. The UK has terrible social mobility rates and considerably higher crime rate on average.

mikemac1

In 1998 I was a kitchen porter and earning the princely sum of 2.50 punts an hour.

My alcohol inflation index reminds me that a pint of Carlsberg was 2.20 so about an hours work for a pint

Now I'd qualify for 8.65 which is more then enough for a pint, a newspaper and a bag of taytos, good times! :pac:


Living on minimum wage is tough but it was tougher before there was no minimum at all

not yet

Icepick wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from starting a business and paying €20 an hour.
Easier said than done, eh?

Your just bieng a smart ass now.....

Noboby mentioned e20 an hour, Unions/labour court/government have decided on a basic living wage, and that my friend is called minimum wage.

I been to places where there is no minimum wage and all it does is make the rich richer. This boll0ks of pay them a bowl of soup is long gone.

Maura74

mollymosfet wrote: »

Higher cost of living, council housing provided etc., but even then it's still too low. I don't know why people are looking to UK for an example. Just because you can get away with paying people that little doesn't mean you should. The UK has terrible social mobility rates and considerably higher crime rate on average.

The are now actually moving poor people out of London the place in the north where there is less work, it is now being referred to as ethnic cleaning.

Osborne the UK chancellor explained: why: “When a hard-working head of the household leaves for work every morning, he can see that the blinds on the windows of the house opposite are still closed. Behind those blinds may be somebody who is on benefits and is not going to work. He is paying for those behind the blinds to stay at home and not work.”

What Boy George fails to recognized in morning times could be shift night shifts workers and are entitled to have their blinds closed to get some sleep. Or perhaps they are disabled and not able to get out of bed until a carer turns up to help or could be ill with flu, so many reasons, but the millionaire chancellor wanted to brand all people that have blinds closed are dole scroungers.

http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/who-are-behind-the-blinds-george/

mollymosfet wrote: »

The problem is that the cost of living won't come down as people predict, because a lot of stores seem to price for those that can afford it, rather than discount for the poorer members of society who are facing the most pain from this budget.
It just wouldn't work, and only ideologues are seriously looking at it. We're never going to compete with places like China on that basis.

Of course Ireland or the UK will never compete with China as it is such a big economy. What is needed is to try and export to China or India they are the two big growing economies at present.

As for the minimum wage, this is OK for people that are students or others from EU that are on their own and sharing accommodation with lots of people and maybe in Ireland for a specific time and will go back home to their homeland to settle down.

Minimum wage is no good if a person needs to get a mortgage or to save for a family or have a holiday once a year. How can they do that on the minimum wage?

seankb

Stheno wrote: »

Guaranteed job seekers benefit was cut from 12 to 9 months, after that time, people will be means tested for job seekers allowance.

I taught it was cut from 6 to 3 months. Could be wrong in saying that.

Mr. teddywinkles

Idbatterim wrote: »

I got slated by one poster for suggesting minimum wage of E6.95 i.e a 20% reduction, yet when you factor in the main costs for people, i.e rent, on site alcohol & cost of groceries combined, Id imagine they would be at least 20% cheaper than Dublin. So how can people in Dublin survive on it?

Well I live in Cork city and it aint cheaper. Cute cork people

Icepick

not yet wrote: »

Unions/labour court/government have decided on a basic living wage, and that my friend is called minimum wage.

In other words people who have never taken risk in their lives, always lived off other people's taxes and have no real business experience.

not yet wrote: »

I been to places where there is no minimum wage and all it does is make the rich richer. This boll0ks of pay them a bowl of soup is long gone.

There is a difference between no minimum wage and €7-7.50.

Maura74

There are only 3 multinationals retailers in London that have signed up for the living wage in UK and they are Selfridges and Body shop and Lush chairs, no other larger ones like Tesco, Asda, M&S the lists goes on and on.......Wonder how would the CEO's and Directors of these companies would survive on such a small wage.

http://www.london.gov.uk/media/press_releases_mayoral/mayor-increases-london-living-wage-four-international-employers-sign

http://www.london.gov.uk/publication/fairer-london-2012-living-wage-london

http://www.unison.org.uk/livingWage/files/WhoPaystheLivingWage.pdf

not yet

Icepick wrote: »

In other words people who have never taken risk in their lives, always lived off other people's taxes and have no real business experience.


There is a difference between no minimum wage and €7-7.50.

wtf are you on about, we are talking about people earning a wage they can live on,nothing to do with ''business experience'' or who has the balls to set up a business.

People in this country would do away with minimum wage and have people work for e3 an hour FACT. That is why we have this protection measure in place. Just because someone sets up a business does not give them the right to exploit people.

Icepick

not yet wrote: »

wtf are you on about, we are talking about people earning a wage they can live on,nothing to do with ''business experience'' or who has the balls to set up a business.

You can live on less than 7-7.50/hour. That's what minimum welfare is for.
Or do you claim that people not earning at least a minimum wage have problem surviving here?

not yet wrote: »

People in this country would do away with minimum wage and have people work for e3 an hour FACT. That is why we have this protection measure in place. Just because someone sets up a business does not give them the right to exploit people.

And it's also why we have enormous unemployment. The simple fact is that some people cannot even generate current minimum wage worth of productivity.

maninasia

mikemac1 wrote: »

In 1998 I was a kitchen porter and earning the princely sum of 2.50 punts an hour.

My alcohol inflation index reminds me that a pint of Carlsberg was 2.20 so about an hours work for a pint

Now I'd qualify for 8.65 which is more then enough for a pint, a newspaper and a bag of taytos, good times! :pac:


Living on minimum wage is tough but it was tougher before there was no minimum at all

There was a minimum wage back then, must have been around 2 punts an hour. Your point still stands though. It would be better to cut long-term dole and keep minimum wage as it is.