Who is the greatest Irish rugby coach of all-time? [MOD WARNING IN OP]

Fits Morris

Declan Kidney for me.

Two Heineken Cups and two more finals. Kidney's Munster team pulled Irish rugby out of the doldrums and made rugby far more accessible to the general public.

Coached the first Irish team to win the Grand Slam in 61 years.

The only Irish coach to oversee a win over big three Southern Hemisphere opposition at a World Cup.

The only Irish coach to go through a calendar year unbeaten (2009).

There aren't any other realistic contenders, as far as I'm concerned.

MOD WARNING: These threads tend to have a short shelf life. Any of the usual crap will be dealt with infractions/bans.

TheVoodoo

Conor George, is that you? But really.. it's hard to say who is the greatest as both the Heineken cup and Professional era itself are relativly new to Irish Rugby.

Teferi

Far, far too small a pool to choose from tbh.

Kidney is obviously the biggest fish in the pond with a rake of wins but he has been unwilling or unable to adept to the modern game.

I've always liked Elwoods passion myself.

its_phil

Has to be Kidney.

Sure his time may be up as Head Coach soon, but you can't argue with what he has won.

CIARAN_BOYLE

If Kidney had of resigned at the top of his game at year end 2009 then he would be acclaimed by all as the greatest coach of all time but since then his career has been in a downward spiral.

[Jackass]

In terms of coach of the international team, I think Warran Gatland has a shout as the man who brought us out of decades of hammerings to make us competitive in the international arena, O'Sullivan has a shout as the first coach to make us a world class outfit, our backline attack often referred to as the best in the world, that aspect of our game appreciated down under, which isn't often a thing European teams can get - respect from the southern hemisphere.

O'Sullivan undone by 3 or 4 near misses of Grand Slams, also oversaw an Irish team competing with the greatest English side of all time, and still managed 3 or 4 tripple crowns. Also had us ranked 3rd in the world for a while, and regularly the top ranked Northern Hemisphere team.

Was probably right to leave when he did, he was there long enough and had given everything he could I think, but oversaw the brightest sustained period in Irish rugby.

Kidney as national coach won a grand slam with a virtually unchanged O'Sullivan team. You feel if O'Sullivan had stayed on the extra year and had the England / France home games he may well have finally landed the deserved grand slam. Also, Kidney got a fair amount of luck O'Sullivan never got - notably getting out of jail in Croke Park against an awful English team, scraping past France, never really playing great rugby but winning, and of course Jones missing a fairly straight forward penalty to rob us at the death.

But since then Kidney has had to rebuild from the O'Sullivan era, and without the strongest squad in the competition (as he had when boss of Munster), we have gotten worse and worse each season, culminating in our lowest ever world ranking position and points, our heaviest ever defeat in the 150+ years of Irish rugby, worst ever run of form in professional history and our worst ever 6 nations performance. Also showed a complete inability to manage a team when throwing the towel in at Leinster whilst overseeing an appauling phase in the provinces history.

Joe Schmidt undoubtedly the best coach at Irish provincial level with 2 Heineken Cups in 2 years along with a semi final, as well as topping the pro12 and 2 pro12 finals in a row - all be it without managing to juggle Heineken cup finals the week before and competing on both fronts - coming closet to doing the virtually "impossible" (according to Guy Noves) European and Domestic double.

As an Irish coach at club level, you'd have to say Conor O'Shea has been the best, taking a middling Quins team and turning them into the dominant English side and winning a European competition also.

IMO Best national coach of modern era Eddie O'Sullivan, Best Irish club Coach Conor O'Shea, best Provincial coach Joe Schmidt.

Honurable mention to Kidney for his achievements at Munster, but has been shown to be inept as a coach unless he has by far the best team in the competition and an established playing style - perhaps a privalleged spectator more than a winning coach at Munster. :pac:

Quint2010

New Zealand 60 Ireland 0. That is all.

phog

Kidney for me, he has achieved so much.

Schmidt would get an honourable mention too.

CIARAN_BOYLE

[Jackass] wrote: »

In terms of coach of the international team, I think Warran Gatland has a shout as the man who brought us out of decades of hammerings to make us competitive in the international arena, O'Sullivan has a shout as the first coach to make us a world class outfit, our backline attack often referred to as the best in the world, that aspect of our game appreciated down under, which isn't often a thing European teams can get - respect from the southern hemisphere.

O'Sullivan undone by 3 or 4 near misses of Grand Slams, also oversaw an Irish team competing with the greatest English side of all time, and still managed 3 or 4 tripple crowns. Also had us ranked 3rd in the world for a while, and regularly the top ranked Northern Hemisphere team.

Was probably right to leave when he did, he was there long enough and had given everything he could I think, but oversaw the brightest sustained period in Irish rugby.

Kidney as national coach won a grand slam with a virtually unchanged O'Sullivan team. You feel if O'Sullivan had stayed on the extra year and had the England / France home games he may well have finally landed the deserved grand slam. Also, Kidney got a fair amount of luck O'Sullivan never got - notably getting out of jail in Croke Park against an awful English team, scraping past France, never really playing great rugby but winning, and of course Jones missing a fairly straight forward penalty to rob us at the death.

But since then Kidney has had to rebuild from the O'Sullivan era, and without the strongest squad in the competition (as he had when boss of Munster), we have gotten worse and worse each season, culminating in our lowest ever world ranking position and points, our heaviest ever defeat in the 150+ years of Irish rugby, worst ever run of form in professional history and our worst ever 6 nations performance. Also showed a complete inability to manage a team when throwing the towel in at Leinster whilst overseeing an appauling phase in the provinces history.

Joe Schmidt undoubtedly the best coach at Irish provincial level with 2 Heineken Cups in 2 years along with a semi final, as well as topping the pro12 and 2 pro12 finals in a row - all be it without managing to juggle Heineken cup finals the week before and competing on both fronts - coming closet to doing the virtually "impossible" (according to Guy Noves) European and Domestic double.

As an Irish coach at club level, you'd have to say Conor O'Shea has been the best, taking a middling Quins team and turning them into the dominant English side and winning a European competition also.

IMO Best national coach of modern era Eddie O'Sullivan, Best Irish club Coach Conor O'Shea, best Provincial coach Joe Schmidt.

Honurable mention to Kidney for his achievements at Munster, but has been shown to be inept as a coach unless he has by far the best team in the competition and an established playing style - perhaps a privalleged spectator more than a winning coach at Munster. :pac:

What semi final? That was Cheika before Joe that got us to a semi

Teferi

OP, can you clarify if you meant purely Irish coaches or coaches who have coached in Ireland? 2 completely different debates tbh.

conf101

[Jackass] wrote: »

Honurable mention to Kidney for his achievements at Munster, but has been shown to be inept as a coach unless he has by far the best team in the competition and an established playing style - perhaps a privalleged spectator more than a winning coach at Munster. :pac:

I'm not a massive Kidney fan at all but is that not pretty harsh on him? Does he not get any credit for getting Munster into the position of being "by far the best team in the competition"?

jm08

Jackass

Joe Schmidt gets the credit for 2 HCup wins despite Cheika building the Leinster team. EOS gets the credit for the GS because he built the team.

I'd say Kidney had more to do with "bringing us out of decades of hammerings to make us competitive in the international arena" - Kidney was the coach of that very young Munster team that defeated Ireland on their way to the '99 world cup. The Munster team had the half-backs & pack that backboned Ireland success's for the next 10 years. They were:

R O'Gara, P Stringer, M Horan, F Sheahan, J Hayes, M Galwey, J Langford, A Quinlan, D Wallace, A Foley.

Ireland had: C O'Shea, James Topping, Kevin Maggs, Mike Mullins, Mtt Mostyn, Eric Elwood, Brian O'Meara, Reggie Corrigan, Ross Nesdale, Angus McKeen, Jeremy Davidson, Mal O'elly, David Corkery, Kieron Dawson, Eric Miller. Subs: Dion O'Cuinneagain, Andy Ward, Justin Fitzpatrick, Bob Casey, Keith Wood & Justin Bishop.

The final score was 26-19 to Munster.

Kev_2012

Kidney brought us Munster fans the joy of 2 long awaited Heineken Cups and a Grand Slam for Ireland.

I think that speaks volumes in itself. Say what you want about him now, but looks at what he has done! It's like saying that Arsene Wenger is a crap manager.

[Jackass]

jm08 wrote: »

Jackass

Joe Schmidt gets the credit for 2 HCup wins despite Cheika building the Leinster team. EOS gets the credit for the GS because he built the team.

Yeah that's fair enough and Cheika did bring Leisnter on leaps and bounds, but the reason I'd give Schmidt so much credit at Leinster is that he took over from a great foundation but brought us to another level completely, unquestionably playing the best rugby of the professional era. He took over one of the best teams of Europe, but made them the best in Europe.

jm08 wrote: »

I'd say Kidney had more to do with "bringing us out of decades of hammerings to make us competitive in the international arena" - Kidney was the coach of that very young Munster team that defeated Ireland on their way to the '99 world cup. The Munster team had the half-backs & pack that backboned Ireland success's for the next 10 years. They were:

R O'Gara, P Stringer, M Horan, F Sheahan, J Hayes, M Galwey, J Langford, A Quinlan, D Wallace, A Foley.

Ireland had: C O'Shea, James Topping, Kevin Maggs, Mike Mullins, Mtt Mostyn, Eric Elwood, Brian O'Meara, Reggie Corrigan, Ross Nesdale, Angus McKeen, Jeremy Davidson, Mal O'elly, David Corkery, Kieron Dawson, Eric Miller. Subs: Dion O'Cuinneagain, Andy Ward, Justin Fitzpatrick, Bob Casey, Keith Wood & Justin Bishop.

The final score was 26-19 to Munster.

Yeah but don't forget that Connacht beat South Africa in a warm up game before they went on to win the world cup in 2007 - so those games can be taken with a pinch of salt.

CatFromHue

[Jackass] wrote: »

As an Irish coach at club level, you'd have to say Conor O'Shea has been the best, taking a middling Quins team and turning them into the dominant English side and winning a European competition also.

O'Shea is doing an excellent job but no, his record at club level has a long way to go before he reaches Kidneys. O'Shea started with them in March 2010 so has had the end of the 10/11, the whole of the 11/12, and the current 12/13 season in charge. He hasn't even reached two calendar years with them!

I think he is doing a great job with them so I'm not having a go but it also has to be noted that Dean Richards had them playing very well before in the season or two before he took over. In 08/09 they finished second in the English League and then had the famous home QF to Leinster.

For me it has to be Kidney as the best/most successful Irish coach or coach of an Irish team. Take his one season, 04/05, with Leinster and the two preceeding seasons for example:

04/05 third in the Celtic League and a home QF to Leicester in HEC
03/04 eight in CL and didn't get out of the group in the HEC
02/03 we didn't make the QF's of the CL and only won 3 of our 7 games but did make it to the SF of the HEC.

He certainly improved us and made us much more competitive than we had been. Then there is his success with Munster to add in too.

It has soured a bit in the last season or two with Ireland but his record is far ahead of anyone else in Ireland.

Tox56

If we include non-Irish coaches, I think Kidney is the most successful coach in Irish rugby history, but not necessarily the best coach in Irish rugby history.

tolosenc

Coach of national team: Gatland. We were where Scotland are before he came in.
Irish coach: Eddie O'Sullivan. We were consistently very good for years under him.
Coach in Ireland: Joe Schmidt. Needs no explanation.

Kidney's Grand Slam was Eddie's, just BOD got up to another level. When ROG did his best to lose the England game, BOD (after that hit from Flutey) single handedly dragged us to victory. His try against Wales was equally impressive.

[Jackass] wrote: »

He took over one of the best teams of Europe, but made them the best in Europe.

I'd go so far as to say that Leinster over the last 2 seasons are the best team Europe has ever seen, and by some margin.

sydthebeat

Conor O Shea....... (watch this space)

Losty Dublin

[Jackass] wrote: »

In terms of coach of the international team, I think Warran Gatland has a shout as the man who brought us out of decades of hammerings to make us competitive in the international arena, O'Sullivan has a shout as the first coach to make us a world class outfit, our backline attack often referred to as the best in the world, that aspect of our game appreciated down under, which isn't often a thing European teams can get - respect from the southern hemisphere.

On Gatland, he took charge after Brian Ashton's disastrous run as coach and took Ireland within a whisker of a frankly shocking victory in Paris and brave efforts against Wales at home and in the first test in South Africa. This was done when the backroom set up we have now was only beginning to take shape and the provincal structure wasn't much more than paid amatuers. Murray Kid, however, was the man who really began the donkey work in preparing Irish packs into the hardened units that Gatland is famous for and he needs to be mentioned, even if he didn't get the results.

As results go, only a fool would argue against Kidney's returns over time for domestic teams.

tox56 wrote:

If we include non-Irish coaches, I think Kidney is the most successful coach in Irish rugby history, but not necessarily the best coach in Irish rugby history.

Alex Wyllie is arguably the best ever coach to have worked here; huge suceesses for Canterbury, as assistant coach an RWC 87 and the Pumas in 1999. He coached Clontarf seniors and St Paul's SCT in the mid 90's when he was teaching here.

Higher

I think you would have to go with Eddie O'Sullivan.

Consistently excellent against the top teams and playing a beautiful brand of rugby. Had a terrible WC that will always blight him. Kidney is the most successful but I don't think hes the best. Internationally hes been absolutely dire for 3 seasons now. Even when we won the Grand Slam we were playing absolutely horrid rugby and were extraordinarily lucky. Kidney has had much better players as well at his helm

Healy Horan
Best Flannery equal
Ross Hayes
POC POC
Ryan DOC equal
Ferris Easterby
O'Brien Wallace
Heaslip Leamy
Murray Stringer
Sexton O'Gara
Earls Hickie
D'arcy D'arcy
O'Driscoll O'Driscoll
Bowe Horgan
Kearney Dempsey

its_phil

[Quote=[Jackass];82052981]

Yeah but don't forget that Connacht beat South Africa in a warm up game before they went on to win the world cup in 2007 - so those games can be taken with a pinch of salt.[/Quote]

Nope Connacht lost

CatFromHue

Just to put some of Kidneys achievements with Munster into perspective.

He took over there for the 98/99 season. Their record around this team was

96/97 finished 4th in their group in Europe and in the interpros they P3 W3
97/98 finished bottom of their group in Europe in the interpros they P3 W2
98/99 finished second in group in Europe and get away QF to Colomiers and in the interpros P6 W4
99/00 made it to the final in Europe and in the interpros P6 W6

He left for Ireland, Gaffney took over of Munster in 2002, and then he took over Munster again for the 2005/06 season. Munsters record around this time was

03/04 Seventh in the CL and SF of HEC
04/05 Second in the CL and QF of HEC
05/06 Third in CL and Winners of HEC

The pattern is pretty obvious, he has built and made a success of the team when he was in charge. He is a legend of provincial/club rugby in Ireland and Europe it has to be said.

bamboozle

i guess DK given he achieved so much....even though he has really gone down in my estimation in recent years due to antiquated tactics.

Honorable mentions to Gerry Murphy - delivered back to back wins over england in early '90's during the bleakest period in Irish rugby & Mick Doyle....maybe also to whoever coached the series win in Oz in '79.

I dont think Murray Kid will be getting much mention on here...

Fits Morris

Teferi wrote: »

OP, can you clarify if you meant purely Irish coaches or coaches who have coached in Ireland? 2 completely different debates tbh.

I welcome debate on either subject.

Meyo

Kidney has won the most, but he is clearly out of his depth now. And is terrible for developing younger players.

Clegg

From 2000-2009 Declan Kidney could lay claim to be one of the greatest ever Irish coaches.

From 2010-onwards he hasn't a hope of taking that title as he's led Ireland to embarrassment.

jm08

[Jackass] wrote: »

Yeah but don't forget that Connacht beat South Africa in a warm up game before they went on to win the world cup in 2007 - so those games can be taken with a pinch of salt.

No they didn't. Connacht 3 - 18 South Africa.

http://www.connachtrugby.ie/2007082181084/connacht-v-south-africa-live-updates

CatFromHue

Clegg wrote: »

From 2000-2009 Declan Kidney could lay claim to be one of the greatest ever Irish coaches.

From 2010-onwards he hasn't a hope of taking that title as he's led Ireland to embarrassment.

So 9 or 10 years of huge success is crossed out completely by two or so medicore/average seasons?

jm08

Clegg wrote: »

From 2000-2009 Declan Kidney could lay claim to be one of the greatest ever Irish coaches.

From 2010-onwards he hasn't a hope of taking that title as he's led Ireland to embarrassment.

But no one has won as much as Kidney has.

U19 World Cup, unbeaten year in 2009, Churchill Cup 2009, IRB Inter. Coach of the Year 2009.

Also think he won the 6Ns championship with the 'A''s when he was Ireland Assistant.

Honorable mention to Tom Kiernan - only Irish coach to beat the All Blacks.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

So 9 or 10 years of huge success is crossed out completely by two or so medicore/average seasons?

Not completely but it does take the gloss off it. I think there will be a marked difference in how he will be remember now after the last few years, compared to how he would have been regarded if he had decided to retire around 2009-2010.

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

Not completely but it does take the gloss off it. I think there will be a marked difference in how he will be remember now after the last few years, compared to how he would have been regarded if he had decided to retire around 2009-2010.

I agree the gloss has been taken off a bit yeah, but his record is far better than anyone else who's coached in Ireland.

Also according to Wikipedia he's only 53 ( :eek: ) so I doubt retirement is in his mind just yet.

Clegg

CatFromHue wrote: »

So 9 or 10 years of huge success is crossed out completely by two or so medicore/average seasons?

On balance he's probably been the best coach we've ever had. But I'm only 20 so I can't really talk about coaches that came before Gatland.

All I'm trying to do is put his successes and failures into context. He did brilliant work at Munster winning two HC's but also failed to develop Munsters academy to the point where it's flagging behind Ulsters and Leinsters.

He won the Grand Slam with Ireland but was in charge for humiliating defeats against England and New Zealand.

jm08

Meyo wrote: »

Kidney has won the most, but he is clearly out of his depth now. And is terrible for developing younger players.

That doesn't add up when you think of all the teams he has coached from underage up. Of the '09 team that won the GS, Denis Leamy was the only Munster player that he hadn't capped initially for Munster out of their great team.

jm08

Clegg wrote: »

On balance he's probably been the best coach we've ever had. But I'm only 20 so I can't really talk about coaches that came before Gatland.

All I'm trying to do is put his successes and failures into context. He did brilliant work at Munster winning two HC's but also failed to develop Munsters academy to the point where it's flagging behind Ulsters and Leinsters.

He won the Grand Slam with Ireland but was in charge for humiliating defeats against England and New Zealand.

So you were 8 when Kidney's Munster team were beating Toulouse in the south of france with a crowd of kids like O'Gara, Stringer, Hayes, Horan, Wally, DOC & Frankie Sheahan?

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

That doesn't add up when you think of all the teams he has coached from underage up. Of the '09 team that won the GS, Denis Leamy was the only Munster player that he hadn't capped initially for Munster out of their great team.

There's a reason why Munster is the third province of Ireland at the moment.

Declan Kidney and his failure to develop talent.

Fireball07

As of now, I would have to say Kidney is the best tbqh. Okay, we've not been great in the past couple of years but every manager reaches the end of his useful lifespan (bar the likes of Ferguson and Cody) eventually. Kidney's achievements haven't been close to being matched by any other Irish coach, so I'd say he's easily the best.

Clegg

jm08 wrote: »

So you were 8 when Kidney's Munster team were beating Toulouse in the south of france with a crowd of kids like O'Gara, Stringer, Hayes, Horan, Wally, DOC & Frankie Sheahan?

They were developed during the dying days of amateurism just like BOD, D'arcy, Hickie etc. And Hayes has even said that he only became a decent prop after his spell in New Zealand.

Since then the Munster acedemy has been rather fallow. You can point to Murray, POM, Zebo etc but they were brought on by Mc Gahan.

Earls has been good though. Probably Kidneys biggest success in bringing a player through.

Fireball07

Clegg wrote: »

They were developed during the dying days of amateurism just like BOD, D'arcy, Hickie etc. And Hayes has even said that he only became a decent prop after his spell in New Zealand.

Since then the Munster acedemy has been rather fallow. You can point to Murray, POM, Zebo etc but they were brought on by Mc Gahan.

Earls has been good though. Probably Kidneys biggest success in bringing a player through.

TOL aswell tbf...he put TOL ahead of Stringer in the midst of a HC-winning campaign.

And also brought in Denis Hurley...who never made it internationally but it was a big enough call at the time.

jm08

Clegg wrote: »

They were developed during the dying days of amateurism just like BOD, D'arcy, Hickie etc. And Hayes has even said that he only became a decent prop after his spell in New Zealand.

Since then the Munster acedemy has been rather fallow. You can point to Murray, POM, Zebo etc but they were brought on by Mc Gahan.

Earls has been good though. Probably Kidneys biggest success in bringing a player through.

None of the provinces had academies up to about '04/'05.

BOD was coached by Kidney when he was 19, so he had some part in his development as was DOC, Paddy Wallace, etc. A lot of them would also have been coached by him at Ireland A level when he was Ireland Assistant.

Hayes was a 2nd row when he went to NZ and it was they who started playing him as a prop.

Tomas O'Leary & Denis Hurley (some of the first players) who came through the Munster Academy.

Isn't the Academy Manager meant to be responsible for the Academy - not the head coach. Don't they have enough to do?

jm08

.ak wrote: »

There's a reason why Munster is the third province of Ireland at the moment.

Declan Kidney and his failure to develop talent.

I really don't think its the responsibility of the Head Coach to run the Academy. I doubt if Ferguson runs the Man United Academy. Its a failing of the Province Management/IRFU if a province doesn't have a good academy.

edit: a lot of injuries/retirements have a lot to do with Munster being the 3rd Province at the moment.

CatFromHue

.ak wrote: »

There's a reason why Munster is the third province of Ireland at the moment.

Declan Kidney and his failure to develop talent.

Define develop talent?

Edit: As jm08 mentions above there is a lot of off the field decisions, which I'd imagine the Academy is part of, that the head coach is not responsible for.

shuffol

I dont think Ireland has ever played excellent rugby under Kidney. We're comfortably the strongest 6N side in terms of breakdown work and technique, in 09 the rules heavily favoured teams who were on top in that area, add to that having one of the all time great goalkickers and that made us an incredibly tough team to beat.

tolosenc

Developing talent =/= running the academy.

Deccie amassed his boys at Munster, and where possible, has stuck to them for the best part of 15 years. Essentially, he developed talent once. It's supposed to be an ongoing process.

A man who has utterly failed at international management cannot be considered the best manager we've ever had, unless you don't consider international rugby important.

Meyo

The Head Coach is ultimately responsible for integrating youth into teams. Kidney has failed to do this consistently at every position, to say Kidney had something to do with BOD being the player he is today is actually laughable.

.ak

CatFromHue wrote: »

Define develop talent?

Edit: As jm08 mentions above there is a lot of off the field decisions, which I'd imagine the Academy is part of, that the head coach is not responsible for.

Blooding players from the academy into the senior squad, rotation, etc., etc.

Kidney is definitely the best Irish coach. (in terms of success)

However, Keith Wood is definitely the best Irish hooker ever, yet I wouldn't be selecting him anytime soon.

Kidney's time is up, he's been found wanting in recent years, and his frailties have been magnified time and time again.

I do hope he leaves on decent terms after the 6N.

liammur

Kidney, and by a distance. However, he quickly has to evolve his team and methods or his reputation will fall apart. He needs to show he can be ruthless and axe some of the so-called stars.

tolosenc

liammur wrote: »

Kidney, and by a distance. However, he quickly has to evolve his team and methods or his reputation will fall apart. He needs to show he can be ruthless and axe some of the so-called stars.

It's already in tatters.

CatFromHue

tolosenc wrote: »

Developing talent =/= running the academy.

Deccie amassed his boys at Munster, and where possible, has stuck to them for the best part of 15 years. Essentially, he developed talent once. It's supposed to be an ongoing process.

A man who has utterly failed at international management cannot be considered the best manager we've ever had, unless you don't consider international rugby important.

Again it comes down to how you define developing talent.

If it's giving young/inexperienced guys a game then at the end of 07/08:
Coughlan was 6 + 15 and is now 63 + 36
Denis Hurley was 14 and is now 78 + 21
Niall Ronan was 11 +1 and is now 76 +20
Barry Murphy was 30 + 7 and then finished up at 49 +24
Then there is Ian Dowling and Denis Fogarty too.

International rugby is important but it is only one part of his 13 years involvement with top level rugby in Ireland. If you want to judge him correctly you have to take all 13 years into account, not just the last 2.

tolosenc

CatFromHue wrote: »

International rugby is important but it is only one part of his 13 years involvement with top level rugby in Ireland. If you want to judge him correctly you have to take all 13 years into account, not just the last 2.

The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating.

He stepped up to the highest level and has consistently looked out of his depth.

Eddie never won a Heineken Cup, granted, but he had Ireland playing some great stuff, consistently, for years.

Most trophies won is not the same as best coach.

jacothelad

Best, most forward thinking Irish coach of all time = Jimmy Davidson. He tried to drag Ireland, kicking and screamimg into a 'professional' way and was frustrated by the blazers who saw him off.