New Bus Fares Something has to be done.

roboshatner

The new bus fares are a joke and something has to be done about it..

2.80 for a bus home is Awful.

that is nearly 6.00 Euro to get bus to town and back home.

and as for the Leap Cards.....

WHAT 40 cent savings...

They can go take a leap for themselves...

LXFlyer

Well I suggest you start talking to the government first.

They have:
1) Reduced the subsidy paid to the transport companies
2) Capped the DSP payment so that the companies are not being paid per passenger
3) Forced the companies to pay for the back office costs of operating LEAP themselves

Add all of those to rising fuel costs and the question is how do the companies bridge the gap?

There is only so far that cost cutting can go (and yes it certainly can go further).

You can avoid paying €2.80 cash by either:
1) Using a LEAP card - fare would be €2.45 or €4.90 return
2) Using a Dublin Bus Rambler ticket - 30 day (non-consecutive) ticket costs €115 currently or €3.83 per day. It will go up to €125 in January but that still is €4.16 per day.
3) Get a taxsaver monthly/annual ticket and save even more

Hilly Bill

roboshatner wrote: »

The new bus fares are a joke and something has to be done about it..

2.80 for a bus home is Awful.

that is nearly 6.00 Euro to get bus to town and back home.

and as for the Leap Cards.....

WHAT 40 cent savings...

They can go take a leap for themselves...

€2.80 isnt that dear to be honest for a lift home.

LXFlyer

Eh it is a lot when you have to do it every day of the week.

But as I am blue in the face posting here people can avoid paying the cash fares by using LEAP, or prepaid tickets.

dowlingm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I suggest you start talking to the government first.

They have:
1) Reduced the subsidy paid to the transport companies
2) Capped the DSP payment so that the companies are not being paid per passenger
3) Forced the companies to pay for the back office costs of operating LEAP themselves

Add all of those to rising fuel costs and the question is how do the companies bridge the gap?

There is only so far that cost cutting can go (and yes it certainly can go further).

You can avoid paying €2.80 cash by either:
1) Using a LEAP card - fare would be €2.45 or €4.90 return
2) Using a Dublin Bus Rambler ticket - 30 day (non-consecutive) ticket costs €115 currently or €3.83 per day. It will go up to €125 in January but that still is €4.16 per day.
3) Get a taxsaver monthly/annual ticket and save even more

He could get himself a drug problem and go free...

bmaxi

dowlingm wrote: »

He could get himself a drug problem and go free...

In these depressing times if you could feed your habit for €5.60 a day, we'd all be on it.

AlekSmart

Well if Roboshatner was paying €2.80 today,may I assume he was paying €2.65 yesterday ?

So....today,mr Shatner has the means to pay €2.45 for the exact same journey,(Less than what was paid yesterday)yet finds it objectionable..?

It was interesting today to bear witness to how obtuse a race we can be,as so many people reacted indignantly to being advised how to save (substantially) on the Fare they were paying yesterday.

My day was made,however,by the German couple,who having researched the net and discovered the new fare structure, took the necessary action by getting a Leapcard...and then giving a little masterclass to a group of natives in the lower saloon on how to use it...CLASS !!!!!

It,perhaps,puts the reasons they are bailing us out into stark perspective.... :rolleyes:

However it also underlines just how poor the Leapcard brand identity still is,with most people I spoke with being totally unaware as to where to get one.

Today,of all days,should have seen the NTA using the same part-time staff who were collecting data on the streets for the past 10 days,roving around the City and on buses,isuing FREE Leapcards or signing folks up for further contact.

But in the absence of any such pro-activity,they could at least manage a redesign of their Logo to make it visible to intending purchasers....at least make the Leap frog bright yellow rather than the spectacularly well camoflaged green on green currently used.

The people with the greatest reason to moan today were the pre-existing Leapcard holders who took a hit,when they should have been kept artificially low...yea,subsidised,in order to realize the benefits of the RFID card itself.

However,the message has to be hammered home,that the only ones paying the higher rates of Cash Fare Increase are those who CHOOSE to do so.

mickydoomsux

Irish people will put more effort into complaining about something than they will into taking steps to remedy it themselves.

It's always a 'disgrace' and 'something' should be done about it and any attempt at providing a solution that involves a bit of self reliance and initiative is met with 'ah shure, I know nothing about that'.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart I do agree almost wholly with your post above except that I feel re-branding and a full relaunch with a lot more functionality like the ability to load all seasonal tickets and daily weekly and monthly capping is the only thing that can save the leap card from a spectacular leap to the bottom of the charts in terms of public transport ticketing.

Mrs OBumble

AlekSmart wrote: »

However,the message has to be hammered home,that the only ones paying the higher rates of Cash Fare Increase are those who CHOOSE to do so.

Or who live outside the Pale.


(Love the rest of your post though ... great people, the Germans!)

LivelineDipso

AlekSmart wrote: »

It,perhaps,puts the reasons they are bailing us out into stark perspective.... :rolleyes:

Actually it is the Irish taxpayer who is bailing the Germans and their 'Save the Euro' obsession out.

I agree about the LEAP Card - the brand identity is a disaster and needs to be improved.

LivelineDipso

The fares are expensive if you are on minimum wage and need to get to work. Even with the LEAP card discounts these people are being really screwed. It's not good and they have my full sympathy.

The reason why the fares are going up is the likes of Alex do not have to take a pay cut.

Not being arrogant or picking on Alex personally. But that's the truth of it and it is not fair to be smug to the original poster who has a legitimate complaint.

iDave

When i first moved to Dublin the lowest DB fare was 0.80, that same fare is now 1.65, just saying.

Vic_08

iDave wrote: »

When i first moved to Dublin the lowest DB fare was 0.80, that same fare is now 1.65, just saying.

And the cost of everything else has stayed the same over that time has it?

iDave

Vic_08 wrote: »

And the cost of everything else has stayed the same over that time has it?

No but has everything increased over 100%?

penzo

it's not the full town journey that is the worst part of it imo, I used to get the bus to work quite regularly (but would walk home) even though it's not that far but would still save me a good few minutes, but now even just a few stops has you up to what, over 2 euro? used to be like 1.15 or something for, fúckin stupid.

Hilly Bill

iDave wrote: »

No but has everything increased over 100%?

Petrol? beer?

iDave

I know it was nearly a decade ago but I remember starting in DCU and getting the 11, 13, 13A, 19A etc from the DCU gates on the Ballymun Rd. I'd pay 1.20 and that would get me to O'Connell St. Now 1.20 wont even get me on board.

Milan Cobian

I know it was nearly a decade ago

A decade a go, crude oil was less than a third of the price of today. Buses run on oil. That said, air fares are a lot less now than a decade ago and I suspect fuel is a far higher proportion of cost at an airline than a bus company. On the other hand, an airline can simply cut unprofitable routes which DB can't.

On the subject of Leap cards, their functionality on buses is poor. It would be much quicker to tag on when boarding and off when disembarking. To combat fraud, if there is no tag off within a certain time limit, then apply a standard penalty fare to the card next time it's used to tag on.

Regrettably Irish people have a bizarre loyalty to outdated brands and traditions, such as using cash to buy bus tickets, but a large scale push campaign for the Leap card should pay dividends in increasing useage dramatically, whilst the proper implementation of a functional onboard system would much improve dwell times.

devnull

Have the 2011 accounts been published yet? If so what progress has been made on the wage bill to turnover ratio as I believe wages were higher than the companies total turnover for the year previous?

What is the average wage in Dublin Bus these days anyway?

Hilly Bill

Less than what it was last year.

bk

DB wage bill for 2011 was €180,962,000 for 2010 it was €187,562,000

Revenue for 2011 was €167,200,000

Subsidy for 2011 was €73,032,000

Fuel for 2011 was €31,285,000

DB carried 117 million passengers in 2011.

So yes wages make up by far the biggest expense at DB.

Interestingly going back to the oldest annual report I can find which is 2003. but contains data for 2002.

Wage bill for 2002 €139,243,000

Revenue for 2002 was €149,097,000

Subsidy for 2002 was €56,063,000

Fuel for 2002 was €10,447,000

DB carried 145 million passengers in 2002

So since 2002 to 2011 fuel went up €20 million and wages went up €40 million. But revenue went up €18 million and subsidy €17 million, while carrying 30 million less passengers per year!!

So in 2002 it costs €958,000 in wages to carry a million passengers.

In 2011 it cost €1,530,000 in wages to carry a million passengers, that is almost a 60% increase in wages per passenger cost!!!

This tells me that wages are by far the biggest factor in the increase in DB ticket prices. With most peoples wages having returned to 2002 or 2003 levels, it looks like DB wages need to do the same.

Just increase ticket prices with ever falling passenger numbers isn't going to save DB from this death spiral. It really looks like they may need to take a scalpel to wages and perhaps actually drop ticket prices to attract customers.

devnull

If you divide the wages by the number of employees for the year end to December 2010, you get an average wage. That number? €52,656.

For comparison average wage at Bus Eireann is €50,623, Irish Rail is €53,108, both figures to the last available accounts that I can see until the end of December 2010. Not sure what the company name of LUAS is so can't post that.

How do the private operators compare on average salary?

bk

To sumarise my post above, increased fuel prices are a red herring. While they play a part, it is a small part.

DB's biggest issue is a massive increase in wages with a big decrease in passenger numbers.

It looks to me that DB's policy of increasing ticket prices to make up for increasing wage bill and falling passenger numbers isn't working, it is just chasing more passengers away and making things work.

Looking at these numbers it is clear that the solution is to radically cut wages, while attracting passengers (with lower ticket prices?).

Obviously that will be painful for the staff, but it looks to be unavoidable.

devnull

Lothian Buses are often held up as being an example of a well run public bus company, their average wage is £34,076 per year, at current market rates €42,765 would be the average pay. Their pay is one of the more generous operators in the UK also.

Laneyh

Hilly Bill wrote: »

€2.80 isnt that dear to be honest for a lift home.

It wouldn't be if that lift was reliable, frequent and safe but depending on the route none of those words may apply.

BOHtox

They should open the transport to competition. Not all government run competition. Firstly, if a private bus company sets itself up, there should be tax breaks for investment in new buses, wi-fi etc. What DB have done in the past is put a DB bus on the route and once again become a monopoly in bus transport. Private bus companies should be allowed to compete. Doing that, services would increase, prices would come down and so would the cost for the taxpayer.

You then privatise Dublin bus allowing a fully private bus transport system with funding for a small number of routes if they are strategically important but not economically sustainable by themselves.

bk

devnull wrote: »

Lothian Buses are often held up as being an example of a well run public bus company, their average wage is £34,076 per year, at current market rates €42,765 would be the average pay. Their pay is one of the more generous private operators in the UK also.

Which interestingly would bring DB's staff cost down to €143 million, just slightly more then the 2002 level.

LXFlyer

I would imagine that the full implemetation of the EU working time directive had a significant negative impact on wage costs too during that period, it's not quite as black and white as you suggest when comparing with earlier years.

dfx-

Soon the Nightlink will be the cheapest bus home:pac:

cson

I don't think pushing the cost of transport onto the end user is per se a bad thing. However, what is a bad thing is the way DB have gone about it. From the shoddy implementation of the Leap Card to the virtual stealth increase this weekend (I knew about it, but the amount of people who didn't was huge obviously - zero advertising of the increases). I really do think DB missed a trick here in terms of converting a large amount of passengers to cashless tickets had they kept Leap fares at there pre Dec 1 levels and not increased the Ramblers/T90s etc. The fact that you can't top the card up online too is insane as far as I'm concerned. The technology has to exist for that to be possible. It has too.

I've being living in London a year now. Bus fare during the day with your Oyster card is 1.35. No matter how long the journey is once the bus is going that direction. We need a system like that in Ireland. A reduced set rate once you use the Leap card.

carlmango11

Lefty2Guns wrote: »

I've being living in London a year now. Bus fare during the day with your Oyster card is 1.35. No matter how long the journey is once the bus is going that direction. We need a system like that in Ireland. A reduced set rate once you use the Leap card.

At least that way the Leap card could actually make a positive difference to dwell times at stops.

Couldn't believe it when I heard that the new "smart"card still required you to talk to the driver. I actually find cash fares are quicker than using Leap, no waiting around for all that loading crap.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

If you divide the wages by the number of employees for the year end to December 2010, you get an average wage. That number? €52,656.

For comparison average wage at Bus Eireann is €50,623, Irish Rail is €53,108, both figures to the last available accounts that I can see until the end of December 2010. Not sure what the company name of LUAS is so can't post that.

How do the private operators compare on average salary?

I would say that the majority at those companies would love to be on that wage but i doubt very much that they are.

Hilly Bill

Laneyh wrote: »

It wouldn't be if that lift was reliable, frequent and safe but depending on the route none of those words may apply.

You could also say that depending on the route, that they could be safe, reliable and frequent.

monument

Lefty2Guns wrote: »

I've being living in London a year now. Bus fare during the day with your Oyster card is 1.35. No matter how long the journey is once the bus is going that direction. We need a system like that in Ireland. A reduced set rate once you use the Leap card.

The NTA report on the fare increase notes that Dublin Bus is working on moving to a simplified fare structure.

Cookie_Monster

If you think 2.80 is expensive I just paid $5.60 (3.52 eur) for a journey in Auckland :eek:
thankfully it's just a once off but thats still only a local city bus on an 18km run

Thoie

If you're paying €2.80 each way to go to and from the city centre for work, have you considered a tax saver monthly bus ticket?

If you work 20 days a month, and are paying the lower tax rate, then the monthly ticket will cost you €72.45 (paid through your wages). If all you do is 20 return trips, each trip works out as €1.81. Any additional trips you take (for example on your day off, or to go back into town to socialise in the evenings) are effectively free. See http://www.taxsaver.ie/

Yakuza

I cycle 3-4 times a week, but the days I take the bus, I use the 30-day non-consecutive rambler. It's great value (mine cost €110 as I bought a few of them before the last price hike) so costs me €3.67 a day. Even the bare minimum of buses I could take would be €4.30 at the old rates, and I'd generally end up taking a second bus in the evening (130 bus into city centre in the morning, Dublin Bike to work, then either a bus back to the city centre and a 130 home or a 27X to Fairview and a 130 home, so I'm way up on the deal.

If you're only an occasional user then those 30-day ramblers are great value, but they are expensive to buy up front, it has to be said. If you're a regular user (and your workplace supports the scheme) then the Taxsaver ticket is the way to go.

Stonewolf

carlmango11 wrote: »

At least that way the Leap card could actually make a positive difference to dwell times at stops.

Couldn't believe it when I heard that the new "smart"card still required you to talk to the driver. I actually find cash fares are quicker than using Leap, no waiting around for all that loading crap.

It would also help if it beeped, I always have trouble figuring out when it can actually be removed. I've basically resorted to waiting for the driver to tell me to move on, well done on that one DB.

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I would say that the majority at those companies would love to be on that wage but i doubt very much that they are.

Average wages at:
JJ Kavanagh: €26,256
Aircoach: €37.713

In fairness JJ Kavanagh seems way too low.

At the Aircoach rate, DB wage bill would be €126,000,000 which would mean DB wouldn't even need a subsidy, the revenue alone would cover all the expenses, including fuel.

Or alternatively with the subsidy, they could charge much lower fares, probably lower then 2002 levels, which might actually mean more people using the bus and more revenue.

I have to say, I'm shocked that the DB average wage is higher then Irish Rail!! I mean Irish Rail has to have a lot of staff like engineers, etc. to look after and maintain tracks, signalling, etc. A lot more complicated operation then DB.

howiya

If everyone switched to a leap card in the morning Dublin Bus would want to increase the Leap card fare to increase their revenue as they wouldn't be making money on increased cash fares.

The Dublin Bus scenario is the same as the public finances. Until the costs are addressed joe public will keep having to pick up the tab. Dublin Bus need to look at their wage costs as others have alluded to

Tickityboo

bk wrote: »

Average wages at:
JJ Kavanagh: €26,256
Aircoach: €37.713

In fairness JJ Kavanagh seems way too low.

At the Aircoach rate, DB wage bill would be €126,000,000 which would mean DB wouldn't even need a subsidy, the revenue alone would cover all the expenses, including fuel.

Or alternatively with the subsidy, they could charge much lower fares, probably lower then 2002 levels, which might actually mean more people using the bus and more revenue.

I have to say, I'm shocked that the DB average wage is higher then Irish Rail!! I mean Irish Rail has to have a lot of staff like engineers, etc. to look after and maintain tracks, signalling, etc. A lot more complicated operation then DB.

I can safely say I won't be earning over €40,000 this year less in fact.
That will be the same for most of the DB drivers.
Those figures of over€50,000 are misleading and untrue.
I would say alot of high paid management that most definitley should be cut are schewing the figures!!!

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

If you think 2.80 is expensive I just paid $5.60 (3.52 eur) for a journey in Auckland :eek:
thankfully it's just a once off but thats still only a local city bus on an 18km run

On this actually, regardless on the higher cost they do operate a full change system and have tag on tag off in operation with no driver interaction needed... Not all bad...

bk

Tickityboo wrote: »

I can safely say I won't be earning over €40,000 this year less in fact.
That will be the same for most of the DB drivers.
Those figures of over€50,000 are misleading and untrue.
I would say alot of high paid management that most definitley should be cut are schewing the figures!!!

Nothing misleading or untrue about those figures, they are exactly correct.

As you say it maybe that DB has far too many in management and that those managers are getting paid too much.

But either way to me in clearly shows that the wage bill is the major problem at DB, not fuel prices and not decreasing subsidy and until that is fixed, DB will remain in a death spiral of falling passenger numbers and increasing ticket prices.

LXFlyer

I'd argue its all of them bk - the wage bill has reduced by €36m since 2008, but needs to be reduced further. That is a key area, but you cannot look at it in isolation.

Fuel costs have gone up by €7m over the same period, and are forecast to rise by €2m in 2013, increased ITS costs associated with LEAP are significant, while subsidies have dropped by €13m since 2008 and are going to drop a further €4m in 2013.

pc7

I don't use the bus that often so was a bit confused last night, I use a leap card when using the bus. The cash fare for my route was €2.15 and €1.95 for Leap, yesterdya it was €1.90 according to the driver so has my leap equivelent gone down and the cash fare still the same? Or should I be now paying €2.10 leap €2.40 cash? I'm lost! thanks

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

LXFlyer

pc7 wrote: »

I don't use the bus that often so was a bit confused last night, I use a leap card when using the bus. The cash fare for my route was €2.15 and €1.95 for Leap, yesterdya it was €1.90 according to the driver so has my leap equivelent gone down and the cash fare still the same? Or should I be now paying €2.10 leap €2.40 cash? I'm lost! thanks

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

The €2.15 cash fare is now €2.40, while the LEAP fare has increased from €1.95 to €2.10. What journey are you making?

LittleBook

Laneyh wrote: »

It wouldn't be if that lift was reliable, frequent and safe but depending on the route none of those words may apply.

And warm! Have DB decided to tackle their fuel costs by not putting the heat on? I know it's up to the individual driver to actually switch it on, but has there been some kind of a directive about this? I've been on several buses on three/four different routes recently and none of them had the heating on in the morning.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

Average wages at:
JJ Kavanagh: €26,256
Aircoach: €37.713

In fairness JJ Kavanagh seems way too low.

Have you a verfiable source for such accurate wage rates?

bk wrote: »

I have to say, I'm shocked that the DB average wage is higher then Irish Rail!! I mean Irish Rail has to have a lot of staff like engineers, etc. to look after and maintain tracks, signalling, etc. A lot more complicated operation then DB.

Irish Rail have a lot of staff employed at depotman/general/clerical grades working as gatekeepers, ticket office staff, janitorial and platform duties etc etc; duties that Dublin Bus wouldn't have a need for. At the other end they employ engineers, architects, solicitors and professional grade staff who would be paid more than the average wage quoted. Dublin Bus, on the other hand, have more of their staff at driving and mechanical grades gvien the hands on approach of the job.

I gather that both bodies are top heavy with director and senior management grades; their wages would be well over those on the coal face and thus distorting these figures against their favour.

bikeman1

The bottom line is all staff in DB are paid too much. I know 3 DB drivers who all get paid over 40k and have the option for extra work and extra cash. They are good hard working employees, who deserve to be paid well doing a stressful job.

But everyone has taken a pay cut and if the company can't afford to pay the salaries then they must reduce Everyone's wages. By what amount?

10% for drivers and lower paid operational staff. 20% for the fat cat lazy managers. At least it will start to bring them towards the real world.