Gardai accused of writing off penalty points for some

_Kaiser_

It seems that allegations have been made that some AGS members have been quashing penalty points for no reason (according to Newstalk this morning it's for mates, famous people etc)

Surely not? :rolleyes: but if true it makes a complete mockery of the penalty points system, though as with most things in this country, I won't be surprised if it turns out to be accurate.. although even if it is, will anything be done?

Surprised no-one posted this yet (actually no I'm not considering the normal reaction here to anything that paints AGS in a negative light) but it makes it even harder to swallow 2 points for a few km over on a motorway doesn't it?

(And no I don't have any points myself)

Our man in Havana

This story is a complete non story.

Gardaí never had powers to issue points in the first place, that is the role of the DOT/RSA.
All Gardaí can do is issue a fixed penalty notice offering not to prosecute in exchange for a sum of money and accept a number of penalty points.

A superintendent can cancel a penalty notice at his discretion. He has no authority to remove points that have been applied by the DOT.

mgbgt1978

This is on Afterhours since yesterday....146 posts to date

Our man in Havana

Maybe we can have a civilised discussion here?

mgbgt1978

We will see, Havana......;)

_Kaiser_

Our man in Havana wrote: »

This story is a complete non story.

Gardaí never had powers to issue points in the first place, that is the role of the DOT/RSA.
All Gardaí can do is issue a fixed penalty notice offering not to prosecute in exchange for a sum of money and accept a number of penalty points.

A superintendent can cancel a penalty notice at his discretion. He has no authority to remove points that have been applied by the DOT.

Well according to the Independent article, the person making the allegation is a serving AGS officer and came forward with records from PULSE

Doesn't quite seem to be a "non story" to me in fairness based on that, unless you think he falsified the records (50,000 of them!) himself?
Can't have it both ways here - either way someone in the AGS is lying!

Our man in Havana

Fixed penalty notices get cancelled all the time. But no one below the rank of super can do it.
These must be getting cancelled before anyone pays up and the DOT becomes involved.

Not even a super can remove points on record at the DOT.

_Kaiser_

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Fixed penalty notices get cancelled all the time. But no one below the rank of super can do it.

Not even a super can remove points on record at the DOT.

In theory...

In theory this shouldn't even be a possibility that even warrants an investigation, but clearly it's grown legs and must have enough to it that one has been implemented.

There's lot of things that AGS can't/shouldn't do but have done over the years. Google the Mc Bearty case as just one well-known obvious example.

My point here is that the attitude by some people (a lot of whom post on this very forum) that AGS are ALWAYS no matter what, completely beyond reproach and anyone who suggests different must be garda-bashing/have a chip on their shoulder/provide "links" to prove their story may be a little unjustified after all. As I said, this complaint is coming from a serving officer with internal records to make his case - hard to argue with that really!

It's ironically this blind faith in the AGS that permits situations like this to arise. As I said.. either way someone/s in the Gardai is lying here and that proves my point even without the outcome of this investigation being known yet.

cadaliac

meh, if I was in a position to have a buddy of mine in the AGS drop the points, I would surely ask.
I don't have any at the moment though.
There is a lot worse going on in this country imo and we all just "put up with it" or so we are told. :rolleyes:
So, I wouldn't expect too much to happen here either.

I do agree with you Kaiser2000 though. Its more of the who you know and not what you know getting you rewards in this country.

_Kaiser_

cadaliac wrote: »

meh, if I was in a position to have a buddy of mine in the AGS drop the points, I would surely ask.
I don't have any at the moment though.
There is a lot worse going on in this country imo and we all just "put up with it" or so we are told. :rolleyes:
So, I wouldn't expect too much to happen here either.

I do agree with you Kaiser2000 though. Its more of the who you know and not what you know getting you rewards in this country.

And that's the problem. If a Garda can be convinced to wipe out a few penalty points, what else might he/she be willing to do for the right amount of cash?

ANY level of corruption by those supposed to uphold the law should be investigated and prosecuted fully. We've also seen lately that Judge's aren't above the occasional stroke for the right amount too - and that's even more of a worry frankly.

Voodoomelon

I don't see the story here, as mentioned points get retracted all the time, there's nothing underhanded about it.

I had 2 of mine retracted last year and a refund from the Super. Address given on the notice was utterly incorrect and whilst there is no doubt I was speeding, neither I nor the Gardaí could say where it happened so technically was an unlawful penalty.

AugustusMinimus

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I don't see the story here, as mentioned points get retracted all the time, there's nothing underhanded about it.

I had 2 of mine retracted last year and a refund from the Super. Address given on the notice was utterly incorrect and whilst there is no doubt I was speeding, neither I nor the Gardaí could say where it happened so technically was an unlawful penalty.

A judge had a penalty retracted for doing 101kph in a 50 zone and was caught doing 90kph in the very same zone the next day. Twice the limit one day and yet had both tickets retracted.

According to the Times

A high-profile GAA figure has had points terminated four times, three times this year, including two offences recorded in a three-day period.

This is a huge story and it's fairly obvious that there's a hell of a lot of back sratching going on. Do you actually believe a high-profile GAA figure had 4 penalty points terminated in good faith ? 3 in the one year ? As always in this country, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

Jay D

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1220/penalty-points.html

Again, I'd just hate to see it being forgotten about. It needs to be kept in the media etc until accountability is put in place and actions are taken against the culprits.

ebbsy

Maybe these guys are JIMPS - Judge Impersonators (2000ad)

coylemj

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

This is a huge story and it's fairly obvious that there's a hell of a lot of back sratching going on. Do you actually believe a high-profile GAA figure had 4 penalty points terminated in good faith ? 3 in the one year ? As always in this country, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

Nothing new there. Many years ago the wife of a senior GAA official was well known for wrapping her car around lamp posts and trees on the way home from her local. Every time it happened the local Gardai dropped her home, she was never prosecuted and no doubt the lads were sorted with a couple of tickets for the next All-Ireland.

She was a raving alcoholic but nothing was done because if anyone attempted to prosecute her, he would have come under huge pressure to drop it so she was effectively untouchable. Thankfully she never killed anyone. She and her husband are now dead in case anyone is worried about defamation/libel.

Brabus

First cousin is married to a guard, but when I got 2 penalty points earlier this year I didn't bother askin him if could he get rid of them for me.

Even though I know he got my cousin (his wife) out of a few speeding tickets before.:rolleyes:

As for the politician's wanting toname and shame, there's no such thing as free speech in this country esp given our libel laws.:(

Marcusm

cadaliac wrote: »

meh, if I was in a position to have a buddy of mine in the AGS drop the points, I would surely ask.
I don't have any at the moment though.
There is a lot worse going on in this country imo and we all just "put up with it" or so we are told. :rolleyes:
So, I wouldn't expect too much to happen here either.

I do agree with you Kaiser2000 though. Its more of the who you know and not what you know getting you rewards in this country.

The problem with this is that the downside is much greater - conspiracy to pervert the course of justice would almost have to include a mandatory stay in the cells whereas points are fairly low. Will be interesting to see whether this progresses anywhere; if it was unofficial but organised with money or favours changing hands, there'll be a big fallout.

Our man in Havana

As for the politician's wanting toname and shame, there's no such thing as free speech in this country esp given our libel laws.

There is inside the Dáil. It is called parliamentary privilege.

Brabus

Our man in Havana wrote: »

There is inside the Dáil. It is called parliamentary privilege.

Wonder why they don't just go ahead with it.

Probably Mr. Ceann Comhairle would rule them out of order.:(

Our man in Havana

Brabus wrote: »

Wonder why they don't just go ahead with it.

Probably Mr. Ceann Comhairle would rule them out of order.:(

They would be suspended from the house for abusing the privilege.

Oral Surgeon

The only crime here is that they didn't get rid of mine....!!

sanbrafyffe

more irish corruption,,,great,,,

_Kaiser_

Jay D wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1220/penalty-points.html

Again, I'd just hate to see it being forgotten about. It needs to be kept in the media etc until accountability is put in place and actions are taken against the culprits.

Not surprisingly the RTE report is a little thin on detail - here's the Breaking News version

The TDs claimed, under instruction from the Data Protection Commission, they were forced to exclude names of offenders and dates of incidents from the published version of the dossier.

What's Shatter been complaining about/hiding then? No identifying information on individuals was released today.
Of course in a normal/grown-up country he'd be forced to resign over this (ditto Reilly and Hogan with their own recent/ongoing scandals).

The dossier claimed the Superintendent, who cleared tickets for his colleagues and their wives, also struck off a speeding ticket for an individual who had three separate speeding notices and a mobile phone ticket quashed previously.

It also revealed a State solicitor who had been caught speeding had his notice scrapped. The Inspector responsible said the solicitor was en route to an urgent case – the offence occurred on a Saturday.

The dossier claimed one motorist involved in a hit and run – in which a pedestrian was killed – previously had a 135kmph/100kmph speeding ticket struck out by a Garda Inspector.

Another driver, who had been caught using a mobile phone while driving in 2009, no tax in 2010, and speeding in 2011, had all three notices terminated by the same officer.

The TDs confirmed the examples listed in the evidence had been verified against the Garda electronic Pulse crime recording system.

I note that none of the usual AGS apologists/members that frequent this forum have chimed in yet.. who knows, maybe the days of people here being told they have grudges/are wrong/are outright lying whenever a thread appears that paints AGS in a negative light will come to an end? After all AGS are doing all the work in that regard themselves - again!

Ms Daly said the whistleblowers who compiled the dossier – serving gardai - have been “vilified” and “demonised” since their unmasking.

“The way they have been treated, they have effectively been gagged.”

That's actually worse - I say fair play to the AGS members who do take the job and responsibility it carries seriously and who came forward with this information. Seeing as it's taken so long to hit the public domain though, I fear they're in a minority.

Our man in Havana

This sort of thing has been going on since time began.

_Kaiser_

Our man in Havana wrote: »

This sort of thing has been going on since time began.

Doesn't make it right or acceptable though.

"Shure everyone else does it" isn't (or at least shouldn't be) a defence

By that logic I shouldn't bother paying my car tax cause loads of people don't
- or my insurance
- or my debts
... etc

The AGS members who brought this information to light are the only "real" Gardai in this mess

Hootanany

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Doesn't make it right or acceptable though.

"Shure everyone else does it" isn't (or at least shouldn't be) a defence

By that logic I shouldn't bother paying my car tax cause loads of people don't
- or my insurance
- or my debts
... etc

The AGS members who brought this information to light are the only "real" Gardai in this mess

I concur.

coylemj

Brabus wrote: »

As for the politician's wanting to name and shame, there's no such thing as free speech in this country esp given our libel laws.:(

Our man in Havana wrote: »

There is inside the Dáil. It is called parliamentary privilege.

Brabus wrote: »

Wonder why they don't just go ahead with it.

Probably Mr. Ceann Comhairle would rule them out of order.:(

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They would be suspended from the house for abusing the privilege.

They have named several prominent people and all that's happened is that the Ceann Comhairle has said he will report them to the Committee on Procedures and Privileges. None of them has been suspended or even booted out of a sitting of the Dail.

Some newspapers and radio stations have repeated the names. To report on what is said in the Dail or Seanad is itself covered by parliamentary privilege so it's not hard to find out who was named if you set a mind to it. Following a few of the pol corrs on Twitter will get you the names the instant they're mentioned.

The normal convention in Leinster House is that people who are not present should not be named since they don't have an opportunity to defend themselves while the TD or senator has the cloak of parliamentary privilege.

Lissavane

Marcusm wrote: »

The problem with this is that the downside is much greater - conspiracy to pervert the course of justice would almost have to include a mandatory stay in the cells whereas points are fairly low. Will be interesting to see whether this progresses anywhere; if it was unofficial but organised with money or favours changing hands, there'll be a big fallout.

Wait and see. Nothing will come of this.

Hootanany

Lissavane wrote: »

Wait and see. Nothing will come of this.

Terrible isn't it

opti0nal

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I note that none of the usual AGS apologists/members that frequent this forum have chimed in yet..

It's against Garda regulations for Garda members to discuss Garda business or policy in internet forums.

_Kaiser_

opti0nal wrote: »

It's against Garda regulations for Garda members to discuss Garda business or policy in internet forums.

Doesn't normally stop them though. I've seen lots of posts from AGS members in here on various motoring/enforcement topics - ironically though I suppose it's another example of something that's "against regulations" but apparently done anyway.

MugMugs

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I note that none of the usual AGS apologists/members that frequent this forum have chimed in yet.. who knows, maybe the days of people here being told they have grudges/are wrong/are outright lying whenever a thread appears that paints AGS in a negative light will come to an end? After all AGS are doing all the work in that regard themselves - again!
.

If you can't bring mohommed to the mountain you may as well just bring the mountain to mohommed.?

Splendid!

Have you ever considered that nobody not even Gardai care about this? I found it quite ironic that Mick Wallace "found this to be an utter disgrace and that all involved should he named and shamed and sacked." Excuse me for this Mick but, Pot Kettle Black?

It's quite funny that this mix of socialists and independents have outed this whole thing. Suppose they need to justify their existence somehow.

_Kaiser_

MugMugs wrote: »

If you can't bring mohommed to the mountain you may as well just bring the mountain to mohommed.?

Splendid!

Have you ever considered that nobody not even Gardai care about this? I found it quite ironic that Mick Wallace "found this to be an utter disgrace and that all involved should he named and shamed and sacked." Excuse me for this Mick but, Pot Kettle Black?

It's quite funny that this mix of socialists and independents have outed this whole thing. Suppose they need to justify their existence somehow.

AGS member/relative of one perhaps? :rolleyes:

Media coverage today and posts on this very forum (as but 2 examples) would suggest that actually quite a few people care about it.

You do have a point about AGS members themselves though. From having a skim over the Emergency Services forum they seem to be more concerned about having to work more with less (like most organisations nowadays) and openly stating that they're now only going through the motions/punching the clock/waiting for the pension - that's a great attitude to have from our front-line response teams.

I accept that times are tough for them but like I said above, welcome to the club! At least they have the support of a union to negotiate for them (unlike most of the private sector) and they aren't likely to be sacked anytime soon and they'll get their guaranteed pension at the end of their tenure.... but if that's not enough maybe they should go and find another job - y'know like a private sector worker would do in a case like that! (and no I'm not public sector bashing - worked there for a few years too).

Feel free to rant about the political leanings of the people who "outed" this.. I suppose you think they should all just keep quiet and let business continue as usual right?

pa990

kaiser is correct,
most people don't seem to care about this matter, possibly because it's part of the Irish psyche that, "if you can get away with it, then you should"

I mean how many threads have been on here about speeding tickets etc where an OP has stated some ridiculous reason why they reckon the ticket is invalid.

ie.

-The garda wasn't wearing his hat.
-I wasn't shown the calibration cert.
-It was an unmarked car.
-Only one blue light was working.
-The garda had one black sock and one navy sock, thus he wasn't in uniform
etc

plus the fact that the possibility of some sort of loophole being closed that they haven't exploited, might make them feel cheated if they didn't avail of it.

we still have a culture in this country that it's not my fault and there is always a way out.
a complete lack of personal responsibility.

that's my 2¢

MugMugs

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

AGS member/relative of one perhaps? :rolleyes:

Media coverage today and posts on this very forum (as but 2 examples) would suggest that actually quite a few people care about it.

You do have a point about AGS members themselves though. From having a skim over the Emergency Services forum they seem to be more concerned about having to work more with less (like most organisations nowadays) and openly stating that they're now only going through the motions/punching the clock/waiting for the pension - that's a great attitude to have from our front-line response teams.

I accept that times are tough for them but like I said above, welcome to the club! At least they have the support of a union to negotiate for them (unlike most of the private sector) and they aren't likely to be sacked anytime soon and they'll get their guaranteed pension at the end of their tenure.... but if that's not enough maybe they should go and find another job - y'know like a private sector worker would do in a case like that! (and no I'm not public sector bashing - worked there for a few years too).

Feel free to rant about the political leanings of the people who "outed" this.. I suppose you think they should all just keep quiet and let business continue as usual right?

Here's your problem, I show any kind of "who cares" of attitude and you instantly assume I'm blue or have blue in the veins.

I'm private sector and I'm going through quite a bit of crap too but my points were..... You weren't getting a rise out of the Gardai on here so attempted to flame them out. It so far hasn't worked. Secondly, I'm really just giving my opinion of who cares and why would you care? I don't know what you work at nor do I care but have you never done a favour for a friend? Ever? I have.....

And yes, I do have a problem with a man who has stolen over two million from my pay packet whining about a few eighty euro fines being quashed and saying that they weren't legit. It reeks of scapegoat and none of its proven. But hey listen, if you'd rather I didn't have an opinion that's cool. This thread becomes pointless but it's still cool

godtabh

MugMugs wrote: »

Here's your problem, I show any kind of "who cares" of attitude and you instantly assume I'm blue or have blue in the veins.

I'm private sector and I'm going through quite a bit of crap too but my points were..... You weren't getting a rise out of the Gardai on here so attempted to flame them out. It so far hasn't worked. Secondly, I'm really just giving my opinion of who cares and why would you care? I don't know what you work at nor do I care but have you never done a favour for a friend? Ever? I have.....

And yes, I do have a problem with a man who has stolen over two million from my pay packet whining about a few eighty euro fines being quashed and saying that they weren't legit. It reeks of scapegoat and none of its proven. But hey listen, if you'd rather I didn't have an opinion that's cool. This thread becomes pointless but it's still cool

Some one stole two million from your pay packet? Defo report that to AGS!

We've all heard stories of people getting off points. But it takes a relatively senior garda to do this it seems. 50000 people do not have access to a super so rank and file are either doing it on behalf of the super or requesting the super to do it. I dont believe that the super would do this himself (I assume he is too busy) and can only conclude that rank and file members of AGS can actually do this when they shouldn't be in a position to do it.

MugMugs

godtabh wrote: »

Some one stole two million from your pay packet? Defo report that to AGS!

We've all heard stories of people getting off points. But it takes a relatively senior garda to do this it seems. 50000 people do not have access to a super so rank and file are either doing it on behalf of the super or requesting the super to do it. I dont believe that the super would do this himself (I assume he is too busy) and can only conclude that rank and file members of AGS can actually do this when they shouldn't be in a position to do it.

Of course they can, if it's caught in time theoretically it can be stopped from being put into pulse if it's a stop on the side of the road.... The system isn't infallible by any means but a super writing off tickets one would imagine needs his sign off at the very least.

Our man in Havana

Probably hundreds of pieces of paper pass a supers desk daily for signature. He is not going to be au fait with them all.

MugMugs

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Probably hundreds of pieces of paper pass a supers desk daily for signature. He is not going to be au fait with them all.

And if that is the case shame on him for allowing that to happen and on his peers for expecting accurate decision making.

catastrophy

It's quite simple really. The reason why most rank and file Gardai don't appear to care is because it's a management issue. I understand that the initial reports came from members of Garda rank.

godtabh

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Probably hundreds of pieces of paper pass a supers desk daily for signature. He is not going to be au fait with them all.

Thats not an excuse either.

I have to sign off on a lot of reports/designs/calculations. It is my responsibility to ensure I am aware of what I am signing as their can be legal repercussions if there are errors in the reports/designs/calculations

Our man in Havana

Not defending it at all. Just saying that it would be a excuse to be trotted out.

nice_guy80

It should not be one rule for the majority and another for the minority
simple as

if there is an appeals system, it should be open and transparent.

not in the hands of a few superintendent gardai

Our man in Havana

if there is an appeals system, it should be open and transparent.

It's called the courts of justice.

What is happening is the cases are being nobbled before they get there.

RainyDay

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Probably hundreds of pieces of paper pass a supers desk daily for signature. He is not going to be au fait with them all.

He should not sign anything that he is not au fait with.

Paddy001

In one case, a number of penalty tickets were cancelled after it was claimed gardai in an unmarked car had driven at 20 miles per hour in a traffic lane, causing several impatient motorists to move into a bus lane and overtake on the left.

I for one am happy to see this kind of carry on being highlighted in the media. I was a victim of something similar a few months ago, except it was a National road and I overtook on a long straight. They then claimed I had crossed a continuous white line to complete the overtake which was not correct. There were two Gardai and one of me, so no witnesses, I done what I could at the time and had to take the points and pay the fine in the end.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-quashed-points-for-10-relatives-3338799.html

Noel Kinsella

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Maybe we can have a civilised discussion here?

I know exactly what you mean.

Saab Ed

Ah its a panic and a farce. This will go nowhere in the end, not of any sustance anyway, the corruption will continue soon after, unabated, and anyone who suggests there's a problem will be hammered.

Funny how if you even suggested such manipulation of the law to a Guard, previous to these reports, you'd be shot down like a light. Funny thing is though, we all know someone

_Kaiser_

Paddy001 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-quashed-points-for-10-relatives-3338799.html

From the above...

The Garda Traffic Corps unofficially sets targets for the issuing of penalty notices, which have been running at about 400,000 annually. Its high rates of prosecution, though, are causing widespread disillusionment within the force, which relies on public support in tackling crime.

However, traffic corps gardai respond by saying that the high levels of policing have led to a major decline in deaths and injuries on the roads.

The death rate has fallen from 458 in 1998 to just over 160 this year.

What was it I heard only recently here about there being no targets eh? Riiiight! :rolleyes:

As for the last bit.. I'm sure that's all down to the TC's lazy policy of entrapment rather than enforcement - nothing at all to do with a massive expansion in motorways/bypasses, upgrading of national and regional roads, safer cars, NCT's etc...

MugMugs

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

From the above...



What was it I heard only recently here about there being no targets eh? Riiiight! :rolleyes:

As for the last bit.. I'm sure that's all down to the TC's lazy policy of entrapment rather than enforcement - nothing at all to do with a massive expansion in motorways/bypasses, upgrading of national and regional roads, safer cars, NCT's etc...

Sorry sorry sorry! What's in that rag MUST be true. Apologies

monkeypants

"The two whistleblowers who reported their claims to the authorities have been formally censured by the Garda Commissioner and are barred from using the Garda Pulse system."

Nicely prioritised.