Goodbye Michael Schumacher and thanks for the last 20 odd years

the culture of deference

Here is my final analysis of MS returns to F1 with that Sh1tbox of a Merc.
Apologies to those of you that have already had to read my Schumi updates during the year.

To those of you are posting here saying MS return was terrible ... he should have never come back ..... he was always rubbish ... he always had the best car ... Nico destroyed him.

Schumi came back after a 3 year absence as a 40 year old rookie to a different F1 that he left, here is a breakdown of what actually happened.

MS results 2012

Qually
MS 10 NR 10

Race's MS 10 NR 10


2012 actual results

AUS:
Qualy 4th,
Race DNF. Reason: Gearbox failure WAS in 3rd place

MAL:
Qualy 3rd,
Race 10th, Reason: Spun by Grosjean Was in 3rd place

CHI:
Qualy 2nd,
Race DNF, Reason: Wheel Not fitted correctly, wheel fell off after pit stop. A definite 2nd place, maybe could have challenged NR.

BAH:
Qualy 23,
Race 10th, Reason: Faulty DRS, gearbox change penalty

SPA:
Qualy 8th,
Race DNF, Reason:Hit Senna Racing accident

Monaco PENALTY

MON:
Qualy: Pole,
race DNF, Reason: Grid penalty, hit by Grosjean at start, FUEL failure

CAN
Qualy: 9 (miscalculation from team no second flying lap,
race DNF reason. DRS stuck open

EUR
Qualy: 12th
race 3rd. Very lucky PODIUM (deserved) oldest driver since 1970

GB
Qualy: 3rd in wet,
race 7th

GER
Qualy: 3rd in wet,
race 7th (77th fastest race lap )

HUN
Qualy: 17th (Maldonado ran wide in front of MS on qualy lap),
Race: DNF Gearbox failure (classed race 24th)
Aborted start, overheating engine on the grid, pit lane start, puncture, drive through penalty

BEL 300th race.
Qualy 13th (NR 17th) (Vettel 11th)
Race 7th was running 2nd (Merc tyres couldn't do planned 1 stop).

ITA
Qualy 4th
Race 6th. Good pace at the end, .4 second behind kimi, and 1.6 behind massa in 4th

Sing
Qualy 9th
Race ........DNF...... Crashes into offline JEV

Jap
Qual 13th + 10 place grid penalty
Race 11th (less than 1 second from point)

Korea
Qual 10th
Race 13th

India
Qual 14th
Race 22nd DNF 1st lap puncture and Gearbox failure

Abu Dhabi
Qual 13th + 10 place grid penalty
Race 11th (less than half second from point)
Another puncture while in 7th place on lap 43

Texas USA
Qual 6th
Race 16th just went backwards Tyres tyres tyres

Brazil
Qual 14th
Race 7th another puncture, last and lapped at one stage


In 2011 he was 76 to rosbergs 89.


In Spa he was on it. Fastest on friday. Got demoted to the back of the grid due to a wheel came loose in qualifying, and he finished ahead of Nico in 5th. He was also taken out by Perez, Petrov and knocked out of Oz gp by puncture damage. 5 retirements in all.



Lets just look at the actual breakdown of 2010


In 2010 he was rusty. Here's wiki

Bahrain Grand Prix. 6th

Australian Grand Prix Schumacher, after running as high as third on the opening lap, was caught up in a tangle between Fernando Alonso and Jenson Button at the start and had to pit for a new front wing. He came from the back to finish in the points in tenth position after spending 20 laps behind Toro Rosso's Jaime Alguersuari.

In the Malaysian Grand Prix Schumacher retired early in the race with a faulty wheel nut.

Schumacher qualified 9th in the Chinese Grand Prix and finished 10th after being passed by several other drivers in the wet conditions towards the end of the race. ]

Spanish Grand Prix, Mercedes upgraded their car with revised aerodynamics and a longer wheelbase. Schumacher was ahead of Rosberg in qualifying and the race finishing fourth

Monaco Grand Prix Schumacher qualified seventh and finished sixth after passing Ferrari's Fernando Alonso on the final corner of the race when the safety car returned to the pits. However he was penalised 20 seconds after the race by the race stewards dropping him to 12th

In Turkey, Schumacher had his best qualifying session since his return qualifying fifth ahead of team mate Rosberg in sixth. In the race Schumacher finished fourth

European Grand Prix in Valencia, Schumacher finished a lowly 15th – his lowest recorded finish in his career – after being caught up in a controversial safety-car ruling, which also ruined the race of Fernando

Alonso.[112] Schumacher was near the front of the field until he was stuck at the end of the pit lane, following the safety car, while the majority of the field passed him.

Hungary, Schumacher finished outside the points in eleventh, but was found guilty of dangerous driving at 180 mph (290 km/h) while unsuccessfully defending tenth position against Rubens Barrichello. DESERVED

Belgian Grand Prix, where he finished seventh, despite starting 21st after his grid penalty.

Italian Grand Prix, Schumacher missed out on the top ten in qualifying but managed to finish ninth.

Singapore Grand Prix, Schumacher finished 13th after the Sauber of Nick Heidfeld collided with him on Lap 36,

Japanese Grand Prix, Schumacher finished sixth before a fourth and seventh in the next two races in Korea and Brazil.

Abu Dhabi, Schumacher was involved in a major accident on the first lap, which occurred after Schumacher was spun around by his teammate Nico Rosberg.[/QUOTE]

Myrddin

Even if one were to say yeah, his two incidents this year were his fault ok...he would have definitely beaten Rosberg on points if you take away the technical issues & related dnfs.. The amount of them is simply mind blowing.

Not an inspiring read, especially if your Lewis Hamilton! And also, despite all the incidents, all the dnf's, all the team errors & technical issues...Rosberg only beat him by 13 points? Says a lot really, either way you look at it

Thanks for compiling all that info, it puts it into perspective when its laid out in black & white. Merc need to seriously pick themselves up for next year.

the culture of deference

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Without doubt he would have thumped Rosberg this season if it wasn't for the car failing. I`d be seriously worried if I was in Rosberg`s shoes right now. Hamilton will be out on a mission next season.

It will be very interesting to see if Nico matches Lewis.

I do not believe he will, but it will be a good yardstick to judge the comeback of a 43 year old Schumi. I really wanted him to have a win but he leaves with his speed and commitment intact. Just watch Sky, Herbert and Brundle and Hill all look like old men, here is their ex team mate from 18 and 20 years and WDC competitor from 1994 and 1995, on track still racing competitively with the youngsters.

Link to a Good article

Love him or hate him, there is only one Michael Schumacher. Some of his previous teammates still seem bitter about how bad he made them look but Eddie Irvine best sums up what it was like to try to match Schumacher every grand prix weekend in the same car. Irvine; "It's like being hit over the head with a cricket bat every couple of weeks".


http://www.f1revs.com/2012/10/how-great-was-michael-schumacher.html

losthorizon

Im 43 so I remember all of Michaels years. No question about his greatness in his first career with the different teams he was with although I disagree with Ferrari methods.


I was never a huge Schumacher fan but it was great to see him back. For the equipment he had and the reliability he was afforded I thought he performed superbly. The times he had a half decent car or it rained he was able to get stuck in. I'm thinking of his Monaco pole position and his fight with Hamilton at Monza who was clearly over awed by him.


The tut tut moment had to be with Rubens where he nearly drove him into the wall.

The BBC is supposed to be an impartial broadcaster but when it came to Michael I think that they forgot that the war ended over sixty years ago.

I would have loved to have seen him in some decent machinery in his comeback. It would have been interesting to say the least

Heres an interesting article on his second career.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/11/30/top-ten-schumacher-comeback-moments/

frostie500

For anyone interested I have a pretty cool piece of memorabilia from Schumi's return for sale. This has been one of the more popular photos that I've been selling over the last couple of months:

It's from the Hairpin at Monaco on what was to be Schumi's last ever pole position lap! I really like that you can see that there's a busstop down at the Hairpin infront of the Fairmount, you can see the bus routes on the sign!

Anyway let me know if anyone's interested in it for a Christmas present or just something for youself. I have a variety of frames on offer for it too

paddy147

He shouldnt have come back.

What did he do or prove in his 2 years back???



Sweet FA.

paddy147

frostie500 wrote: »

Anyway let me know if anyone's interested in it for a Christmas present or just something for youself. I have a variety of frames on offer for it too

You could give it to a certain Mr Hamilton for Xmass.;):D

Im sure hes devastated that Schumi has been given the boot by Mercedez.....(sorry I mean that Schumi himself has retired.:pac:)

RayM

paddy147 wrote: »

He shouldnt have come back.

What did he do or prove in his 2 years back???



Sweet FA.

In fairness, he joined a team that had just won the drivers' and constructors' championships, and had been bought out by one of the world's richest car manufacturers. It probably looked like a very good idea at the time. He couldn't possibly have predicted how terrible their next three cars would be.

Three-year contract or not, I'll be very surprised if Lewis Hamilton spends more than two seasons at Mercedes.

Myrddin

paddy147 wrote: »

What did he do or prove in his 2 years back???

That he's still the quickest man around Monaco?
That at 43 he's still competitive?
That Merc abandoned this years car very early on?
That Rosberg was rubbish this season despite his win?

I think he's proved quite a few things, if your prepared to open your eyes & see them that is. His comeback has been disappointing because although it took him quite a while to adapt to F1 again, I felt as if he got more out of the car than it should have be able for, particularly in the latter half of the season. How he got outta bed to go & drive that piece of crap I dunno.

Oh, and if you want the Anne & Barry version, this is a good 'un

Ares

This could have been a fine thread. If the opening paragraph had been an actual thank you to MS as opposed to a justification of his poor comeback.

Seen as we're on that team, here a few succinct facts for the Schumi fanboys about his three year comeback.

Rosberg won a race over the three years, Schumi didn't.

Rosberg had a pole position, Schumi didn't.

Rosberg finished second, something Schumi failed to achieve.

Rosberg had five podiums vs one for Schumi.

Rosberg finished ahead of Schumi every year over the three year comeback.

Nico had more points finished every year than Schumi.

EireGreg

Bye michael great 20 years his comeback was ****e no point trying to butter it up from any point of view it was a failure but any1 tha watched michael in his early days and watched him build a amazing car at ferrari knows how special he is greats driver ever up there with prost

Bigus

I think this sums it up

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=rSMQM4ASGRg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DrSMQM4ASGRg

bbsrs

£90 million reasons the comeback was a success for Family Schumacher.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1260700/The-30m-man-Michael-Schumacher-leaves-rivals-shade-mega-pay-deal.html

Myrddin

Ares wrote: »

Seen as we're on that team, here a few succinct facts for the Schumi fanboys about his three year comeback.

The usual arsey post from the anti-Schumacher brigade. Here's all your points answered...

Rosberg won a race over the three years, Schumi didn't.

True, but despite that, you'd expect Rosberg would have ended the season with more of a lead over Schumacher than he did wouldnt you?

Rosberg had a pole position, Schumi didn't.

Well if setting the fasest lap in Q3 around Monaco isn't a pole, I dunno what is.

Rosberg finished second, something Schumi failed to achieve.

True, he got a third.

Rosberg had five podiums vs one for Schumi.

How many DNF's due to car failure did Rosberg have versus Schumacher? Thought so.

Rosberg finished ahead of Schumi every year over the three year comeback.

Well the first year I'd have expected that, the second not as much, but this year, I'd have thought so too. You see there's a concept in motorsport called reliability, you should look it up...it explains a lot about Schumachers poor season this year.

Nico had more points finished every year than Schumi.

Well if you really wanna play that game, Scumacher has seven championships, Nico has none. Fun isn't it

sham69

An absolute legend.
Mercedes were the failure here not Schumi.
Rosberg is an average driver at best.
Forget about Nicole Shirtslinger, Rosberg is Hamiltons new bitch.

Sad to see Schumi go, its a better sport with him in it.
At least we still have Kimi...

StephenHendry

its a shame schumi didnt get the win in his comeback, he was hit by continued bad luck with the retirements this year in spite of his improved quali performance against nico, he could have won a race and its a pity merc's competitiveness fell off so badly this year.

i thought schumi could have challenged for a wc prior to 2010 when his comeback was announced in late 09. anyway im glad he came back to show he was able to mix it with current greats like lewis, alonso and vettel.

Rascasse

James Allen did a good comparison of Nico and Michael here.

At the end of the day it was a bad (but profitable) idea to come back. There's a reason sportsmen, be it F1/football/rugby/cricket etc, retire in their late 30's - there comes a time when the body can't move as fast as the mind wants it to.

bucketybuck

EnterNow wrote: »

The usual arsey post from the anti-Schumacher brigade. Here's all your points answered...



True, but despite that, you'd expect Rosberg would have ended the season with more of a lead over Schumacher than he did wouldnt you?



Well if setting the fasest lap in Q3 around Monaco isn't a pole, I dunno what is.



True, he got a third.



How many DNF's due to car failure did Rosberg have versus Schumacher? Thought so.



Well the first year I'd have expected that, the second not as much, but this year, I'd have thought so too. You see there's a concept in motorsport called reliability, you should look it up...it explains a lot about Schumachers poor season this year.



Well if you really wanna play that game, Scumacher has seven championships, Nico has none. Fun isn't it

You never refuted any of his points, just repeated the excuses from the OP. How is that "all of your points answered"?

Myrddin

Rascasse wrote: »

there comes a time when the body can't move as fast as the mind wants it to.

I think Schumacher himself would be the first to tell you that. The thing is though his comeback can only really be measured against how well he performed against his teammate, and although he was beaten - the amount of technical dnf's doesn't allow for a proper comparison.

You can compare them in 2010, Rosberg was definitely the better of the two while Schumacher got to grips with the raft of changes in F1 that were new to him. Totally different tyres, no refuelling meant far different strategies, KERS & DRS changed the strategies again. It took a long time for him to adapt, far longer than Kimi, though Kimi hadn't been out of the car as long & things like KERS were there in 2009 anyway.

2011 was a mixed bag. Still rusty, Schumacher could have really benefited from some testing time - another thing which is removed from the sport he once knew. At about the latter half of the season, things started to improve. Flashes of the old skills became apparent, & over the 2nd half of the season he started to reel some points out of the car. Qualifying was a huge problem for Scumacher, its definietly where his comeback faltered. He usually made progress on race day, but where quali had been weak, there was only so much he could do. Rosberg was far stronger on Saturday, but normally come race day he's spend more time going backwards.

2012 was a b@stard of a season to Schumacher. Constant, constant car issues, throw in two mistakes too & his points tally was seriously hurt. I genuinely believe though, had his car not kept breaking down, he'd have beaten Rosberg this season on points. You can talk about reflex speed etc, but I'd immediately nullify that point with the fact that the track which tests reflexes more than any other, Schumacher was fastest around - Monaco. There's no issues with race craft, reflexes etc...its all still there at competitive levels. He wouldn't have been fastest around the street track if it were any other way.

Consequently, the other point I'd raise...is that if Schumacher is indeed 'past it', & everything else his critics say, why wasn't he absolutely trounced this year...considering Rosberg had nowhere near the amount of car failures? Genuine question, I'd love to see it answered properly

SouperComputer

Schumacher is anything but "past it". I think anyone that believes that needs their head examined. I guarantee in a fitness test he probably would still be fitter than half the feckin existing F1 grid.
As for reflexes, racing is as much about planning and execution of that plan, as it is about "reflexes". Schumacher has few issues in that area.
Its fair to say he's probably past his peak. But you could argue that for many reasons aside from his age...being a family man, multi world champ and not as much to prove perhaps. However being past his peak still puts him considerably above many others.
I applaud him for giving it a go, it was valiant effort IMO. I've always felt Schumacher was overrated, esp compared to Senna but I have a MASSIVE new respect for him after his return to F1. Shows real gusto, real character and that he is a through and through racer. His true talent and ability was marred with reliability and performance issues with his car. Not unusual in F1, but that's how it goes. Gotta take the rough with the smooth.
Never understood the whole "oh he should give the younger drivers a chance at that Mercedes seat". Why? He earned it, so should they. Fact remains that at 43, he is still verymuch a competent F1 driver, much more so than many newcomers. He's not preventing someone from getting a seat that deserves it anymore than another F1 driver.

I'm OK with him retiring from F1, but only because he'll spend more time in karts (beating drivers 1/2-1/3 of his age incidentally) now and hopefully I'll get to race him at some point

Ares

EnterNow wrote: »

The usual arsey post from the anti-Schumacher brigade. Here's all your points answered...



True, but despite that, you'd expect Rosberg would have ended the season with more of a lead over Schumacher than he did wouldnt you?



Well if setting the fasest lap in Q3 around Monaco isn't a pole, I dunno what is.



True, he got a third.



How many DNF's due to car failure did Rosberg have versus Schumacher? Thought so.



Well the first year I'd have expected that, the second not as much, but this year, I'd have thought so too. You see there's a concept in motorsport called reliability, you should look it up...it explains a lot about Schumachers poor season this year.



Well if you really wanna play that game, Scumacher has seven championships, Nico has none. Fun isn't it

You actually haven't addressed any of the points, just posted the usual 'arsey' rehtoric of Schumi fanboys.

Schumi did not get a pole position in Monaco, he started sixth, that's what matters. I'm sure you consider Hamilton the pole sitter in Spain as well as that would suit your agenda driven arguement.

I don't understand why you make reference to the world titles considering we're talking about what happened between 2010-12. Or are you willy waving to hide the fact that you can't refute a single one of my points?

Re, retirements, Schumacher and Rosberg both suffered two retirements each in 2010 yet Rosberg scored double the points. Can you explain that?

Schumacher had some bad luck this season with retirements. He did also occur two grid penalties for driving into the back of Senna and JEV. I've seen these mistakes referred to as 'racing incidents' and 'offline cars' so far in the thread. Laughable. I suppose when he tried to drive Rubens into the wall in Hungary 2010 was also a 'racing incident.'

Myrddin

Ares wrote: »

You actually haven't addressed any of the points, just posted the usual 'arsey' rehtoric of Schumi fanboys.

I think you'll find I did, though you may not be open to taking them on board...nothing I can do about that. Also I'm not a Schumacher fanboy, I've only been watching F1 since 08, I just think F1 is a little bit more complex than your making out it is

Schumi did not get a pole position in Monaco, he started sixth, that's what matters. I'm sure you consider Hamilton the pole sitter in Spain as well as that would suit your agenda driven arguement.

Pure pedantry, I'm not even going to bother there. Fastest time in Q3 is a pole lap, sure enough he incurred a penalty but neverthess, twas the fastest lap. Pretty impressive for a middle aged man who's past it don't you think? Embarrassing for the other lads too if thats how you look at it!

I don't understand why you make reference to the world titles considering we're talking about what happened between 2010-12. Or are you willy waving to hide the fact that you can't refute a single one of my points?

I've refuted all of them as I already mentioned, and I'm not the one with seven titles...so waving my willy would be pointless no?

Re, retirements, Schumacher and Rosberg both suffered two retirements each in 2010 yet Rosberg scored double the points. Can you explain that?

I've already acknowledged Rosberg was the better of the two in 2010, you might wanna have another bash at reading my post again. I'll return the question to you that despite the amount of dnf's in 2012, why did Rosberg score so meagerly against his teammate?

Schumacher had some bad luck this season with retirements. He did also occur two grid penalties for driving into the back of Senna and JEV. I've seen these mistakes referred to as 'racing incidents' and 'offline cars' so far in the thread. Laughable. I suppose when he tried to drive Rubens into the wall in Hungary 2010 was also a 'racing incident.'

Again, I've already acknowledged the two were Schumachers fault...you really should read someones post thoroughly if your gonna try bollox talk around it.

On that note I'll withdraw from this exchange from you, spare the other readers of the thread from having to listen to:

Y - Schumacher is crap
M - No, he isn't
Y - Yeah he is
M - No he isn't etc etc

Myrddin

bucketybuck wrote: »

You never refuted any of his points, just repeated the excuses from the OP. How is that "all of your points answered"?

Well in a very simplistic way, he's right...Schumachers comeback has been a failure. I'm not trying to refute that, what I'm trying to say was, there are valid & explainable reasons why it wasn't successful other than the tired old 'he's past it' nonsense.

repsol

Ares wrote: »

You actually haven't addressed any of the points, just posted the usual 'arsey' rehtoric of Schumi fanboys.

Schumi did not get a pole position in Monaco, he started sixth, that's what matters. I'm sure you consider Hamilton the pole sitter in Spain as well as that would suit your agenda driven arguement.

I don't understand why you make reference to the world titles considering we're talking about what happened between 2010-12. Or are you willy waving to hide the fact that you can't refute a single one of my points?

Re, retirements, Schumacher and Rosberg both suffered two retirements each in 2010 yet Rosberg scored double the points. Can you explain that?

Schumacher had some bad luck this season with retirements. He did also occur two grid penalties for driving into the back of Senna and JEV. I've seen these mistakes referred to as 'racing incidents' and 'offline cars' so far in the thread. Laughable. I suppose when he tried to drive Rubens into the wall in Hungary 2010 was also a 'racing incident.'

You seem to have a dislike for Schumacher It would be interesting for you to tell us all which driver you support so we can compare achievements.Michael Schumacher was 7 TIMES world champion, a feat that will probably never be repeated.He won titles in two different teams.He left Benetton which had a brilliant car and went to Ferrari which was hopeless at the time and helped fashion a truly brilliant team.Anyone who has watched F1 for a long time,I mean when Nico's dad was champion and before, will tell you that Schumacher was only bettered in driving skill by Senna. Schumacher probably bettered Senna in the whole politics area behind the scenes.There is nobody else even close to those two.People rave about Vettel,yet he has never won in anything but the best car on the grid and he has struggled sometimes with Webber who is very average.I think of the current crop you would have to rank them 1)Alonso 2)Hamilton 3)Vettel 4)Raikkonen 5)Button. All this talk about Nico Rosberg beating Schumacher fails to take into account that the Mercedes clearly didn't suit Schumis driving style.It suited Rosberg better.This cannot be underestimated.

SouperComputer

I think Ares is right. Schumacher is dried up shiiite. Sure Senna was past it in '93 as well. d:

Frank Bullitt

Imagine how 23 drivers felt, when on a Saturday afternoon in July in Monaco, a driver who was "past it" set the fastest time in qualifying.

Humble pie was served that day.

KenSwee

SouperComputer wrote: »

I think Ares is right. Schumacher is dried up shiiite. Sure Senna was past it in '93 as well. d:

Holy crap, please tell me you are joking...?

repsol

SouperComputer wrote: »

I think Ares is right. Schumacher is dried up shiiite. Sure Senna was past it in '93 as well. d:

You are either trying to annoy proper F1 fans or you are totally ignorant of the sport.Do yourself a favour and watch a rerun of the 1993 European GP at Donnington. It is widely regarded by most of those involved in F1 as the best piece of driving ever (by Senna).Then tell us if Senna was "past it".

frostie500

repsol wrote: »

You are either trying to annoy proper F1 fans or you are totally ignorant of the sport.Do yourself a favour and watch a rerun of the 1993 European GP at Donnington. It is widely regarded by most of those involved in F1 as the best piece of driving ever (by Senna).Then tell us if Senna was "past it".

He was taking the piss, here's SouperComputer's real thoughts on Schumi's retirement (it's from a couple of posts above your quoted post):

SouperComputer wrote: »

Schumacher is anything but "past it". I think anyone that believes that needs their head examined. I guarantee in a fitness test he probably would still be fitter than half the feckin existing F1 grid.
As for reflexes, racing is as much about planning and execution of that plan, as it is about "reflexes". Schumacher has few issues in that area.
Its fair to say he's probably past his peak. But you could argue that for many reasons aside from his age...being a family man, multi world champ and not as much to prove perhaps. However being past his peak still puts him considerably above many others.
I applaud him for giving it a go, it was valiant effort IMO. I've always felt Schumacher was overrated, esp compared to Senna but I have a MASSIVE new respect for him after his return to F1. Shows real gusto, real character and that he is a through and through racer. His true talent and ability was marred with reliability and performance issues with his car. Not unusual in F1, but that's how it goes. Gotta take the rough with the smooth.
Never understood the whole "oh he should give the younger drivers a chance at that Mercedes seat". Why? He earned it, so should they. Fact remains that at 43, he is still verymuch a competent F1 driver, much more so than many newcomers. He's not preventing someone from getting a seat that deserves it anymore than another F1 driver.

I'm OK with him retiring from F1, but only because he'll spend more time in karts (beating drivers 1/2-1/3 of his age incidentally) now and hopefully I'll get to race him at some point

frostie500

Im a huge Schumi fan and think that his comeback was worth making. It was unrealistic to expect him to be the same driver that he was in the past, and he most certainly wasnt, but his role at Merc was very different to his role at Ferrari.

He was brought back so that the Merc engineers, mechanics and Rosberg could see the committment that is needed to be ultra successful. He was brought back to teach Nico how to lead a team and maximise his ability. Look at the first two years of his comeback especially and you can see this.

Schumi V1 didnt laugh and joke around, he was stony, serious and ultra committed. Since his comeback he was a very different man. He joked with the media and simply loved being back in F1. I spoke with him briefly in Singapore on the way into the paddock and he said how much he has enjoyed the last three years. It was the race before he announced his retirement and looking back it was clear that his mind was made up at that point (probably because Merc had told him that Lewis was coming) but he wanted to enjoy the rest of his time in the sport.

A lot of people have said over the last few years that his comeback has tarnished his reputation but what Schumi will we remember in five, ten years time. The one in red or the one in silver?

In relation to his performances over the last three years I don't think anyone is arguing that he was competitive in 2010, or indeed for much of 2011. He was off the pace and sloppy for much of that time. It took him a long time to readopt to racing and it reminds me of something Eddie Irvine said when they were teammates.

It was something along the lines of, "The reason that Michael is so good is because he is driving all the time during the season. He was racing every fortnight and having at least a 3 day test between, usually another two days to shakedown new parts, and he was at the top of his game as a result. With no testing in F1 it clearly hurt him a lot as he wasnt able to hone his skills and keep sharp.

Add to this that the 2010 car was pretty poor and last year's car wasnt really suited to his style and it was difficult for the first couple of years. This year however he was driving a car that he was much happier driving. The balance was very different to last year's and he was much more competitive.

At the start of the season the Merc was very competitive and Schumi and Rosberg were very closely matched. Both qualified well and raced well but Schumi was generally a smidgen faster. Nico did a great job in China and there's no way that Michael would have been able to beat him in the race but he would have been on the podium. He had other chances this year too.

His podium at Valencia was fortunate but his pole lap at Monaco was amazing. Afterwards I was chatting with various engineers in the paddock and everyone said something along the lines of "that was one of the best laps we've seen in a long time."

I asked a couple of the drivers about it and far from shying away from the issue they all said how good a lap it was and also how exciting it was for F1 that we saw Schumi perform like that. Of course his penalty from Barcelona cost him the chance of starting from the pole and led to his crash with Grosjean but if he had started from pole he would have been very dangerous in race trim (look at Rosberg's performance.)

Silverstone and Hockenheim saw him utterly obliterate Nico in the wet qualifying sessions for two second row starts. The rest of the year however saw Merc lose performance relatitive to everyone else before eventually finishing the season with probably the sixth best car on the grid making it very difficult for Michael and Nico to be competitive.

The comeback was far from perfect but Schumi was still consistently one of the top ten drivers on the grid and very deserving of his seat. This year I had him ranked 9th in my top ten and the main reason he was so low was because of mechanical issues having cost him a lot of points and I thought that i had to take that into account but he was still capable of racing at a very high level

SouperComputer

Thanks Frostie.
Cool the jets folks, and relax with the "proper F1 fan" malarky, its cliche'd.

Jaysis, I'm a better troll than I thought! I didn't even put any effort into that one. I watched Donnington '93, live, sitting on the edge of the couch in the house I grew up in Finglas in absolute awe. An inspiration, literally. Senna e Basta!

All things considered, I think his comeback was masterful. Honestly. If you look past the simplicity of mere "results" and delve into performance factors you will likely agree. Not a lot of people think in this manner though. Anyway, his comeback established deep respect for the guy with me. He still waved off many, many pretenders to the throne half his age, or less on a regular basis. Fair play to him. Also as Frostie pointed out we saw a different dimension to Schumacher's character. He demonstrated that he was more than just a german driving machine, but a real human, fallible, funny and even personable at times.

Tell you what, if I look half as good and as fit Schumacher when I'm 43 I'll be a very happy man! Wife won't be displeased either!
For me, his comeback establishes him in my mind as one of the greats. Before this yeah he won a lot but I just didnt hold him with such high regard as many did. His '94 season was, er, questionable as well as some of his on track antics. Lastly I felt and still feel that Schumi V1 never really had an equal teamate which made it hard to know where his ability really lay. If you think MS and his teamates were in "the same car" you are a fool. Anyway, my point is that being a champion (or at least someone to admire or look up to) in my book is much more than just scoring the most points in a year. It's about putting it on the line, taking risks, pushing your boundaries and challenging your abilities. Schumacher undoubtedly accomplished this with his "comeback", on and off the track.

He's signed to Tony\\Kart as a test driver so we'll see how that goes

repsol

SouperComputer wrote: »

Thanks Frostie.
Cool the jets folks, and relax with the "proper F1 fan" malarky, its cliche'd.

Jaysis, I'm a better troll than I thought! I didn't even put any effort into that one. I watched Donnington '93, live, sitting on the edge of the couch in the house I grew up in Finglas in absolute awe. An inspiration, literally. Senna e Basta!

All things considered, I think his comeback was masterful. Honestly. If you look past the simplicity of mere "results" and delve into performance factors you will likely agree. Not a lot of people think in this manner though. Anyway, his comeback established deep respect for the guy with me. He still waved off many, many pretenders to the throne half his age, or less on a regular basis. Fair play to him. Also as Frostie pointed out we saw a different dimension to Schumacher's character. He demonstrated that he was more than just a german driving machine, but a real human, fallible, funny and even personable at times.

Tell you what, if I look half as good and as fit Schumacher when I'm 43 I'll be a very happy man! Wife won't be displeased either!
For me, his comeback establishes him in my mind as one of the greats. Before this yeah he won a lot but I just didnt hold him with such high regard as many did. His '94 season was, er, questionable as well as some of his on track antics. Lastly I felt and still feel that Schumi V1 never really had an equal teamate which made it hard to know where his ability really lay. If you think MS and his teamates were in "the same car" you are a fool. Anyway, my point is that being a champion (or at least someone to admire or look up to) in my book is much more than just scoring the most points in a year. It's about putting it on the line, taking risks, pushing your boundaries and challenging your abilities. Schumacher undoubtedly accomplished this with his "comeback", on and off the track.

He's signed to Tony\\Kart as a test driver so we'll see how that goes

So you think Ferrari put all the enormous budget into extracting every last 100th of a second from their car and then make a slower version for Barrichello or Irvine so that Schumi would win?Jesus,now who is a fool.I think Philip Morris would have wanted half their sponsorship back!If that was the case and Schumi had a first lap crash or failure,they could have just packed up and gone home.You need BOTH cars as near to the front as possible as by finishing second a team mate can prevent a rival from scoring more points.The idea of hiring a truly great driver is they are faster than their team mate 9 times out of 10.Occasionally Schumi would be bettered by Barrichello if a track favoured Rubens,Interlagos for example but this was not the norm.Do you think Hakkinen usually beat Coulthard because his car was better or Senna beat Berger because Ron Dennis nobbled Bergers' Mclaren?Occasionally two cars would run different spec,with one car using new components.This was a double edged sword as new parts could be unreliable or upset the balance of the car negating any advantage

SouperComputer

repsol, for a self-proclaimed "proper F1 fan" you have a very nieve and simplistic view of the sport.
If someone else wants to point out some of the flaws in your post then that's their prerogative. I won't be bothering.

Tea 1000

SouperComputer wrote: »

Thanks Frostie.
Cool the jets folks, and relax with the "proper F1 fan" malarky, its cliche'd.

Jaysis, I'm a better troll than I thought! I didn't even put any effort into that one. I watched Donnington '93, live, sitting on the edge of the couch in the house I grew up in Finglas in absolute awe. An inspiration, literally. Senna e Basta!

All things considered, I think his comeback was masterful. Honestly. If you look past the simplicity of mere "results" and delve into performance factors you will likely agree. Not a lot of people think in this manner though. Anyway, his comeback established deep respect for the guy with me. He still waved off many, many pretenders to the throne half his age, or less on a regular basis. Fair play to him. Also as Frostie pointed out we saw a different dimension to Schumacher's character. He demonstrated that he was more than just a german driving machine, but a real human, fallible, funny and even personable at times.

Tell you what, if I look half as good and as fit Schumacher when I'm 43 I'll be a very happy man! Wife won't be displeased either!
For me, his comeback establishes him in my mind as one of the greats. Before this yeah he won a lot but I just didnt hold him with such high regard as many did. His '94 season was, er, questionable as well as some of his on track antics. Lastly I felt and still feel that Schumi V1 never really had an equal teamate which made it hard to know where his ability really lay. If you think MS and his teamates were in "the same car" you are a fool. Anyway, my point is that being a champion (or at least someone to admire or look up to) in my book is much more than just scoring the most points in a year. It's about putting it on the line, taking risks, pushing your boundaries and challenging your abilities. Schumacher undoubtedly accomplished this with his "comeback", on and off the track.

He's signed to Tony\\Kart as a test driver so we'll see how that goes

But do you think his Ferrari was better than Irvine's when he was only in the team some weeks and was beating Irvine by 1.7 seconds in qualifying? I think it was more towards 2000 before he was getting all the tweaks and upgrades ahead of the team mate, and even then, there are bound to be races where the difference between the cars is negligible.

the culture of deference

Ares wrote: »

This could have been a fine thread. If the opening paragraph had been an actual thank you to MS as opposed to a justification of his poor comeback.

I have been posting about Schumi's horrible season all year, It is not a justification of his poor comeback, I am simply explaining the atrocious level of DNF's he has had.

Ares wrote: »

Seen as we're on that team, here a few succinct facts for the Schumi fanboys about his three year comeback.

Ares wrote: »

Rosberg won a race over the three years, Schumi didn't.

Correct. Could MS have won Monaco? could MS have won Nico's race if his wheel had stayed on the car? Could MS have won in Canada.

Ares wrote: »

Rosberg had a pole position, Schumi didn't.

Oh yes he did

Ares wrote: »

Rosberg finished second, something Schumi failed to achieve.

Schumi was 2nd on more than 1 occasions in races before
(A) His tyre fell off after a pit stop.
(B) Wet dry Canada race, MS in 2nd with no answer to DRS

Ares wrote: »

Rosberg had five podiums vs one for Schumi.

See MS DNF's for that one.

Ares wrote: »

Rosberg finished ahead of Schumi every year over the three year comeback.

Nico had more points finished every year than Schumi.

These are the same points!

Ares wrote: »

You actually haven't addressed any of the points?

Re, retirements, Schumacher and Rosberg both suffered two retirements each in 2010 yet Rosberg scored double the points. Can you explain that?

I get the impression you didn't read my OP

Lets just look at the actual breakdown of 2010


In 2010

Australian Grand Prix Schumacher, after running as high as third on the opening lap, was caught up in a tangle between Fernando Alonso and Jenson Button at the start and had to pit for a new front wing.

In the Malaysian Grand Prix Schumacher retired early in the race with a faulty wheel nut.

Monaco Grand Prix was in 6th place he was penalised 20 seconds after the race by the race stewards dropping him to 12th

European Grand Prix was in 3rd or 4th place but was caught up in a controversial safety-car ruling, which also ruined the race of Fernando

Belgian Grand Prix, where he finished seventh, despite starting 21st after his grid penalty.

Singapore Grand Prix, Schumacher finished 13th after the Sauber of Nick Heidfeld collided with him on Lap 36,

Abu Dhabi, Schumacher was involved in a major accident on the first lap, which occurred after Schumacher was spun around by his teammate Nico Rosberg.

Ares wrote: »

Schumacher had some bad luck this season with retirements. He did also occur two grid penalties for driving into the back of Senna and JEV. I've seen these mistakes referred to as 'racing incidents' and 'offline cars' so far in the thread.

Both were racing accidents, the penalty system in F1 leaves a lot to be desired. Senna was 2 seconds a lap slower and he clearly changed lines in the corner, and JEV went way offline, also it was just after safety car, we know what that does to grip and pressures.

What he did to Rubens in 2010 was awful.
The crash with JV was stupid same with Damon in 1994, but no different than Senna V Prost.
Monaco 2006 was a steward fcuk up.

Tea 1000 wrote: »

But do you think his Ferrari was better than Irvine's when he was only in the team some weeks and was beating Irvine by 1.7 seconds in qualifying? I think it was more towards 2000 before he was getting all the tweaks and upgrades ahead of the team mate, and even then, there are bound to be races where the difference between the cars is negligible.

Read what Irvine says about MS. Irvine could have been the 1999 champ, MS really tried to help him

Tea 1000

the culture of deference wrote: »

Read what Irvine says about MS. Irvine could have been the 1999 champ, MS really tried to help him

I remember that alright. But I'm just asking in general I guess, as to when folk are convinced (rightly or wrongly) that MS had the superior of the two cars. Was it day 1 with Ferrari? Or after a few seasons when he showed how good he was and had good rapport built up with the team?
I'm not so sure how much different the cars were. I know Schumacher's feedback as to how he wanted the car set up and how he wanted it to handle was going to take priority over whatever a team mate wanted, which can work against a driver if the car is being configured for someone else's style over yours, but do people think there was more to it than that?

Myrddin

As someone who knows nothing of that era & what went on, short of suiting the style of the number 1 driver, why would a team make one car better/superior than the other?

frostie500

Schumacher got upgrades first at Ferrari. In his time with the team they would have qualifying engines or quali specific body work, quali brakes etc. and Schumi would get the newer parts first. Then for the following race they would be given to his teammate.

If Ferrari had enough parts for the two cars obviously Irvine or Barrichello would have the parts. I don't anyone is going to dispute that but the team's focus was clearly on Schumi and the car would bedeveloped towards his requests and he would get the newer parts, the better strategy, the pick of the engineers etc.

StephenHendry

frostie500 wrote: »

Im a huge Schumi fan and think that his comeback was worth making. It was unrealistic to expect him to be the same driver that he was in the past, and he most certainly wasnt, but his role at Merc was very different to his role at Ferrari.

He was brought back so that the Merc engineers, mechanics and Rosberg could see the committment that is needed to be ultra successful. He was brought back to teach Nico how to lead a team and maximise his ability. Look at the first two years of his comeback especially and you can see this.

Schumi V1 didnt laugh and joke around, he was stony, serious and ultra committed. Since his comeback he was a very different man. He joked with the media and simply loved being back in F1. I spoke with him briefly in Singapore on the way into the paddock and he said how much he has enjoyed the last three years. It was the race before he announced his retirement and looking back it was clear that his mind was made up at that point (probably because Merc had told him that Lewis was coming) but he wanted to enjoy the rest of his time in the sport.

A lot of people have said over the last few years that his comeback has tarnished his reputation but what Schumi will we remember in five, ten years time. The one in red or the one in silver?

In relation to his performances over the last three years I don't think anyone is arguing that he was competitive in 2010, or indeed for much of 2011. He was off the pace and sloppy for much of that time. It took him a long time to readopt to racing and it reminds me of something Eddie Irvine said when they were teammates.

It was something along the lines of, "The reason that Michael is so good is because he is driving all the time during the season. He was racing every fortnight and having at least a 3 day test between, usually another two days to shakedown new parts, and he was at the top of his game as a result. With no testing in F1 it clearly hurt him a lot as he wasnt able to hone his skills and keep sharp.

Add to this that the 2010 car was pretty poor and last year's car wasnt really suited to his style and it was difficult for the first couple of years. This year however he was driving a car that he was much happier driving. The balance was very different to last year's and he was much more competitive.

At the start of the season the Merc was very competitive and Schumi and Rosberg were very closely matched. Both qualified well and raced well but Schumi was generally a smidgen faster. Nico did a great job in China and there's no way that Michael would have been able to beat him in the race but he would have been on the podium. He had other chances this year too.

His podium at Valencia was fortunate but his pole lap at Monaco was amazing. Afterwards I was chatting with various engineers in the paddock and everyone said something along the lines of "that was one of the best laps we've seen in a long time."

I asked a couple of the drivers about it and far from shying away from the issue they all said how good a lap it was and also how exciting it was for F1 that we saw Schumi perform like that. Of course his penalty from Barcelona cost him the chance of starting from the pole and led to his crash with Grosjean but if he had started from pole he would have been very dangerous in race trim (look at Rosberg's performance.)

Silverstone and Hockenheim saw him utterly obliterate Nico in the wet qualifying sessions for two second row starts. The rest of the year however saw Merc lose performance relatitive to everyone else before eventually finishing the season with probably the sixth best car on the grid making it very difficult for Michael and Nico to be competitive.

The comeback was far from perfect but Schumi was still consistently one of the top ten drivers on the grid and very deserving of his seat. This year I had him ranked 9th in my top ten and the main reason he was so low was because of mechanical issues having cost him a lot of points and I thought that i had to take that into account but he was still capable of racing at a very high level

great points there, i think schumi was much better this year , especially in qualifying where he was able to beat nico consistently. but for retirements i.e. china, monaco (without the grid penalty) he may won in monaco starting from pole. he was much more relaxed in his 'second career' but was prone to errors i.e. spain and singapore which he obviously wouldnt have done in his prime.

im glad he came back but he had the right attitude in being relaxed about it and going in to enjoy competing which he did and after 4 years out it would have been unrealistic for him to win the wc in 2010 despite brawns success in 09, i did think it could have been possible in 11 or 12 as i thought merecedes would make a step forward but they never were able to do so

StephenHendry

frostie500 wrote: »

Schumacher got upgrades first at Ferrari. In his time with the team they would have qualifying engines or quali specific body work, quali brakes etc. and Schumi would get the newer parts first. Then for the following race they would be given to his teammate.

If Ferrari had enough parts for the two cars obviously Irvine or Barrichello would have the parts. I don't anyone is going to dispute that but the team's focus was clearly on Schumi and the car would bedeveloped towards his requests and he would get the newer parts, the better strategy, the pick of the engineers etc.

agree, it allowed schumi to compete with an inferior car in 97 and 98 and almost take the wc . credit to eddie as he accepted the position he was in and in the long run in 1999 it benefited him as he was able to get the best out of it

Grim.

He seems to be enjoying retirement anyway.





http://instagram.com/p/S8oPtqOofA/

the culture of deference

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I remember that alright. But I'm just asking in general I guess, as to when folk are convinced (rightly or wrongly) that MS had the superior of the two cars. Was it day 1 with Ferrari? Or after a few seasons when he showed how good he was and had good rapport built up with the team?

frostie500 wrote: »

Schumacher got upgrades first at Ferrari. In his time with the team they would have qualifying engines or quali specific body work, quali brakes etc. and Schumi would get the newer parts first. Then for the following race they would be given to his teammate.

Back in the old days Ferrari would have 4 or 5 cars with them at each race. 2 race cars and 2 spares, and enough to build another. After every session some cars would be stripped completely, including Engines gearboxes fully rebuilt or replaced and long hours into the night for mechanics.


"Usually a team will bring three or four cars to a race; a race car for each of its two drivers, and one or two spare cars for use by either driver."


As a cost-cutting measure spare cars were scrapped from F1 at the end of 2007

StephenHendry wrote: »

agree, it allowed schumi to compete with an inferior car in 97 and 98 and almost take the wc . credit to eddie as he accepted the position he was in and in the long run in 1999 it benefited him as he was able to get the best out of it

MS lost the 97 champ because the Williams FW19 was the most dominant car of the year by a huge margin. Schumi won some great wet races and was leading the championship by 1 point before the last race.

The last race Villeneuve, Schumacher, and Frentzen, all had the same fastest qualifying time. Villeneuve was awarded pole

Schumacher had a good start, overtaking Villeneuve to take the lead. By lap 48 Villeneuve was catching up to Schumacher and attempted to overtake. Then we know what happened after.

Jv then let both Mclarens through after some deal had been done by Frank and Ron.

MS lost the 98 champ because of DC in Spa

MS lost the 99 champ with brake failure in UK

Grim. wrote: »

He seems to be enjoying retirement anyway.




http://instagram.com/p/S8oPtqOofA/

Crazy loon

Tea 1000

frostie500 wrote: »

Schumacher got upgrades first at Ferrari. In his time with the team they would have qualifying engines or quali specific body work, quali brakes etc. and Schumi would get the newer parts first. Then for the following race they would be given to his teammate.

If Ferrari had enough parts for the two cars obviously Irvine or Barrichello would have the parts. I don't anyone is going to dispute that but the team's focus was clearly on Schumi and the car would bedeveloped towards his requests and he would get the newer parts, the better strategy, the pick of the engineers etc.

Even today teams have upgrades for only one car, and usually the championship leader in the team gets the say first. There's no doubt that Schu got the engineers ears where feedback is concerned, but it's his trait that he worked hard and provided the feedback more than most other drivers at that time, or even ever. It's also fair in any team in any era that the driver that gets the most results gets the priority in car design and handling characteristics.
There is always the question about the Benneton though and the traction control system!

kartincolin

Schumacher`s pedigree simply can`t be called into question. If you were to use Frostie`s argument, then Alonso is not a special driver, as he the clear number one within the team who always gets preference in regards to the development of the car and new components, but he is being hailed as an all time great after his performances this year.

Schumacher brought an unrelenting desire to win that has yet to be matched by any other driver that has followed him. Admittedly, he was far from the greatest of sportsmen, but he was a force of nature behind the wheel. Anybody who can win with a car with a car stuck in 5th gear at the highest level is something truly special. It`s a shame that his second comeback means that the younger generation of F1 fans without a great knowledge of the sport`s history will remember Schumacher as a fairly good driver who did not know when to stop, but he was so much more than that.