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MRBI poll of Irish Catholics - 7% don't believe in God!

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    #32
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    ninja900 wrote: »
    So explain to me why the RCC is maintaining a death grip on its schools? Clearly it is because they believe it is their only way to gain believers in the future. Impressionable young minds and all that. Without control of schools they are toast, control of adult sexual 'morality' is long gone.

    There are probably 10 clearical religious teachers in Ireland.
    Got my daughter's junior infants worksheets for the month of November back today. Printed on the bottom of the pages is stuff like 'Thank you God for our class' etc. Makes me want to puke. But it's a great school apart from the oul' god indoctrination stuff. CoI is the nearest you get to secular education round here. I can't find it in my heart to criticise what they do, because like me, they're a small oppressed minority too... and if it wasn't for them then there'd be no choice other than RCC or (shudder) Gaelscoil.

    Why shudder at the Gaelscoil. And are you sure that there are no secular schools around? If you cant find one, move.

    Your "oppressed minority" nonsense is laughable. Firstly the COI is not oppressed - although the Established Church is, of course, a historical oppressor. Secondly, neither are you. Using that term, presumably because you are an atheist in secularising Ireland, is a travesty. There are real oppressed people in the world, people denied political rights, free speech, due process, safety at person, personal freedom, but certainly not atheists in Ireland in 2012, and certainly not you.

    I find this indoctrination argument rubbish. I was taught evolution in school by a religious scientist, but by and large the Irish curriculum, as examined, is secular and always has been. Even if the schools were indoctrinating in religion, there is the internet, the entire corpus of human knowledge, the free society you live in with access to millions of books.


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    #33
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    You didn't. Quoting what I wrote and responding with a rant is not addressing my individual points.

    You seem quite annoyed. Have I hit a nerve?

    What nerve would you have hit. I am a non-believer. I am not a teacher.

    I dislike cliched crap which the poster thinks is original. I am not sure how remedial I am willing to get here since I already addressed your points in simple English, and the old adage about teaching a pig to sing comes to mind. It's pointless and you end up annoyed with a pig who cant sing; but - I explained exactly why your point was rubbish - if education were mere "training" (you said Schools are essentially 'education camps' - they train children to be ready for their future role in the society into which they are born at that given time in history. )

    Such a system would exclude English literature , History, Irish, Pure Mathmatics etc. and be all Acccounting, Business English, Typing, Engineering, Computers etc. So that demolished your point about education being "training". Fact is nobody needs Jane Austen or Shakespeare, but teaching both is education not training for their future role in the society unless they are to become English teachers, or Professors. The main idea of education is a cultural transfer.

    Thats exactly what I said. Just. explained. slowly.

    As for critical thinking, every halfwit thinks himself a critical thinker. I did issue a challenge on that - why is the Iona report flawed?

    Knock yourself out.


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    #34
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,208 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Why shudder at the Gaelscoil.

    Wanting my children to be educated in their own language is important to me, oddly enough.
    And are you sure that there are no secular schools around?

    Yes.
    If you cant find one, move.

    How tolerant and inclusive of you.
    I recall people of minority religious views being 'asked' to move in the 1930s and 1940s. That didn't end well.

    You do realise that under the Irish Constitution I'm supposed to have a right to not have my kids indoctrinated into a religion I don't believe in?
    You do realise that given the 'integrated curriculum' vindicating this right is impossible?
    Your "oppressed minority" nonsense is laughable. Firstly the COI is not oppressed - although the Established Church is, of course, a historical oppressor. Secondly, neither are you. Using that term, presumably because you are an atheist in secularising Ireland, is a travesty. There are real oppressed people in the world, people denied political rights, free speech, due process, safety at person, personal freedom, but certainly not atheists in Ireland in 2012, and certainly not you.

    So you have a historical hatred of Protestants. That's your problem. I'm not one and have never been one. We chose the CoI school as the least bad option in our area. It still violates our constitutional rights, every day. Shove your whataboutery. If you want whataboutery I can give you endless examples of abhorrent behaviour by the RCC.
    I find this indoctrination argument rubbish. I was taught evolution in school by a religious scientist, but by and large the Irish curriculum, as examined, is secular and always has been. Even if the schools were indoctrinating in religion, there is the internet, the entire corpus of human knowledge, the free society you live in with access to millions of books.

    What do you mean 'even'. They are, it's a fact, and it's wrong.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #35
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Such a system would exclude English literature , History, Irish, Pure Mathmatics etc. and be all Acccounting, Business English, Typing, Engineering, Computers etc. So that demolished your point about education being "training".

    No it wouldn't. If anything it would require them. You don't need to be told that the things you're learning are useful to perpetuate the societal structures just that you must learn them or you are in trouble - the message being 'shut up - do as you're told' - that is the essence of training.
    The main idea of education is a cultural transfer.

    Yes but you in your delightfully naive vision of cultural transfer believe that cultural transfer is value free - it's not. The values of the stakeholders of the society are transferred too.
    As for critical thinking, every halfwit thinks himself a critical thinker. I did issue a challenge on that - why is the Iona report flawed?

    I'd rather not, ta.


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    #36
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    [...] cliched crap [...]
    Since alcohol was probably involved, you've only been yellow carded for your outbursts last night. Any future posts which are similarly unhelpful, whether alcohol-fuelled or not, will cause red cards and bans to flutter down from the heavens prontissimo.


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    #37
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Damn, if I had known that booze was a get out of jail free card, I would have gone on a tirade last night :p


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    #38
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Re: evolution, I'd be interested in seeing how that question was posed, because that % seems very high to me. If it's presented as being evolution or God, then it'll skew the results.

    I don't think that there's much active opposition to evolution as a theory in Ireland, maybe just lack of understanding, education or interest. Remember the hullabaloo a few years ago when one of the FF Ministers had something to do with an anti-evolution book? The response was overwhelmingly to the effect that evolution is what scientists understand to be true, and that it was ridiculous for the Minister (for Science and Technology possibly??!) to be involved with it. I don't even remember any token Creationists getting time to air their views.


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    #39
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    I looked at a friends biology book and it only had a small paragraph about evolution saying that it and creationism can live side by side.
    I have difficulty believing this was this a book from the Irish curriculum.

    Can you elaborate on what the books was, what ages is was directed at, etc.?


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    #40
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,208 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Dave! wrote: »
    Remember the hullabaloo a few years ago when one of the FF Ministers had something to do with an anti-evolution book?

    Conor 'stick to the kebabs' Lenihan was Minister of State for Science, Technology and Innovation :rolleyes: when he was due to launch the book 'The Origin of Specious Nonsense'. Huge thread about it on this forum...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #41
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    robindch wrote: »
    Since alcohol was probably involved, you've only been yellow carded for your outbursts last night. Any future posts which are similarly unhelpful, whether alcohol-fuelled or not, will cause red cards and bans to flutter down from the heavens prontissimo.

    Robin, 'pronto' means 'ready'. 'Prontamente' might be a more suitable word in this context. :p


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    #42
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I have a theory that arose from the Catholic Church's stranglehold on education. Teaching children how to think would lead to some questioning Catholicism.
    I would disagree with this. I think that the 'learn by rote' method comes more from teachers' unwillingness or inability to structure a lesson to teach the reasoning side of the subject. Whether this is due to not understanding the subject matter enough, an edict from the school, laziness, or just that the idea of spending 8 hours a day answering 'WHY?' questions from 30 children makes them wish for death, I don't know.
    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    The Catholic church is not alone there.

    Schools as we know them aren't really interested in teaching children how to think critically - when has an institution ever sought to be questioned by those who 'feed' it?

    Schools are essentially 'education camps' - they train children to be ready for their future role in the society into which they are born at that given time in history.

    Yes schools teach children how to do maths and English but the principle thing being taught is that not submitting to authority and not being prepared for 'your place' is intolerable to those in power.
    Yeah, you're on to something there. Schools are about training kids to shut up, do what their told and, above all, fit in.


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    #43
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    ninja900 wrote: »
    SCIENCE AND RELIGION ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

    Depends on what you mean. Science is a methodology that can, by definition never go near most religious claims, something religious people seem to think validates religious claims (you cannot prove us wrong).

    But scientific thinking (that science is necessary and important and we don't have better methodologies for discovering information about the universe because if we did they would be included in the scientific method) is mutually exclusive with religious thinking (we can accurately know stuff about the universe through non-scientific theology).

    You can't really accept both without cognitive dissidence.


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    #44
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Zombrex wrote: »
    You can't really accept both without cognitive dissidence.

    I suspect you meant cognitive dissonance, but I must confess I rather like the idea of cognitive dissidence :-)


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    #45
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,208 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Depends on what you mean. Science is a methodology that can, by definition never go near most religious claims, something religious people seem to think validates religious claims (you cannot prove us wrong).

    This ^ :)
    But scientific thinking (that science is necessary and important and we don't have better methodologies for discovering information about the universe because if we did they would be included in the scientific method) is mutually exclusive with religious thinking (we can accurately know stuff about the universe through non-scientific theology).

    You can't really accept both without cognitive dissidence.

    Yeah. I do doubt that anyone who could call themselves a scientist could believe in the literal truth of the bible for instance. That's not a requirement for (most) forms of Christianity though...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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