New fares from Saturday 1st.

AlekSmart

With the new Public Bus Transport Fare structures being introduced on Saturday it's perhaps a good time to point out some worthwhile aspects ?

First the ancien régeime...

Adult Fares Cash Fare Leap Card Fare
Stages 1 to 3 €1.40 €1.25


Stages 4 to 7 €1.90 €1.70
Stages 8 to 13 €2.15 €1.95
Over 13 Stages €2.65 €2.40

And then.....

New Adult Cash Fares from December 1st 2012:

Adult
Cash Fare Leap Card Fare

Stages 1 - 3 €1.40
€1.65

Stages 4 - 7 €1.90
€2.15

Stages 8 -13 €2.10

€2.40

Over 13 Stages €2.45

€2.80

Now,whilst all the attention is firmly focused on the CASH increases,few are willing to even nod in the direction of the actual reduction in some fares for those willing to abandon the thrill of rooting for coins and dancing a jig over change issues.

What I find inexplicable is the reluctance of the NTA to forcefully drive this message home,almost as if the concept of the "Soft-Launch" is to be carried through into every other aspect of Leapcard's use.

I am baffled by the lack of marketing acumen being displayed here,to such an extent that it has to be deliberate...why..?

A significant number of my daily customer base still have no concept of what Leapcard is,and of its relevance to their financial wellbeing.

The NTA really do need to get behind Leapcard now,by using the Cash Fare increases to bolster the Leapcard message.

Dravokivich

The reason why they softlaunch in december is to have stuff out before year end, without paying the higher rates of advertising.

The_Wrecker

Still no signs on the bus either ~ a shock for many come Saturday.

starviewadams

5c LEAP (13+stages) increase for me isn't too bad I suppose.

AlekSmart

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Still no signs on the bus either ~ a shock for many come Saturday.

Nearly all vehicles have a somewhat muted notice in the window adjacent to the Luggage Pen...however I notice that the Irish Language Translation is the one facing the passengers inside the bus,with the english one facing the outside...not sure if this was intentional or not,but it certainly reduced the effectiveness of the notice...:(

The_Wrecker

AlekSmart wrote: »

Nearly all vehicles have a somewhat muted notice in the window adjacent to the Luggage Pen...however I notice that the Irish Language Translation is the one facing the passengers inside the bus,with the english one facing the outside...not sure if this was intentional or not,but it certainly reduced the effectiveness of the notice...:(

It should be behind the stairs in direct view or even the Brit way 'Revised fares' sticker on the windscreen. Soften the blow a tad.

Carawaystick

Wouldn't a fare structure of 1-3 stages
Stages 1 - 3 €1.40 -- cash fare leap fare +25cents not hammer home the impact better?

ixoy

So my LEAP fare is increased by 20c and cash by 25c meaning there's a 25c margin now.
Surely it would have made more sense to encourage LEAP card usage and increase LEAP card by 15c and cash by 30c instead? Make the savings more attractive.

Do we get a seat and get there faster ??

Our man in Havana

Why not ban cash and make cards compulsory?

coylemj

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Why not ban cash and make cards compulsory?

Would discourage tourists and occasional bus travellers. We need all the passengers we can get, given that a reduction in journeys is part of the justification for the increased fares.

Though I can see your point, God help us every time there's a big match in the RDS, the 46A just crawls along the N11 with all the big fellows and their sons getting on and fumbling with coins.

monument

After this it should really be a case of ramp up cash fares, add Leap functions, and prompting the hell out of Leap.

It should not end until the gap between a single cash fare is twice the Leap fare.

catch.23

Leap is pointless until it's tag on/tag off and actually saves everyone time. Why have a smart card if it doesn't make things quicker?!

Twoandahalfmen

how much will

school child cash fare go up by
ordinary child fare go up by
5 day child rambler go up by
and 10 journey school ticket go up by

Thanks

ixoy

catch.23 wrote: »

Leap is pointless until it's tag on/tag off and actually saves everyone time. Why have a smart card if it doesn't make things quicker?!

Is there any reason why it isn't tag on/tag off? Poor technology or is it a trust issue?

Carawaystick

ixoy wrote: »

Is there any reason why it isn't tag on/tag off? Poor technology or is it a trust issue?

apparently
'its too hard'

'it'd slow down boarding' even though passengers have to exit by the tag-on-off machines already

The nta are incompetent. I saw an email they sent saying the leap card improvements would happen over the next few years. despite them saying they would happen soon on their pr puff

Cookie_Monster

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Why not ban cash and make cards compulsory?

because cash is legal tender and cards are not so cannot be the only payment form.

Carawaystick wrote: »

apparently
'its too hard'

'it'd slow down boarding' even though passengers have to exit by the tag-on-off machines already

The nta are incompetent. I saw an email they sent saying the leap card improvements would happen over the next few years. despite them saying they would happen soon on their pr puff

yet the luas seems to manage it quite easily

Our man in Havana

There is no obligation to accept cash as there is no debt.

AppleBottle

Is there any document around that has ALL prices?

I was reading one but the type of ticket I get (student rail/luas) was not listed! I don't know if it's going up or not. Need to get a new ticket on Monday and want to make sure I have enough money for my ticket. I've gotten in contact with Luas twice and no responses. On the list of prices the train station has, it is also not listed.

foggy_lad

AppleBottle wrote: »

Is there any document around that has ALL prices?

I was reading one but the type of ticket I get (student rail/luas) was not listed! I don't know if it's going up or not. Need to get a new ticket on Monday and want to make sure I have enough money for my ticket. I've gotten in contact with Luas twice and no responses. On the list of prices the train station has, it is also not listed.

If it is a weekly or monthly ticket it should not be increasing in price until January afaik

AppleBottle

foggy_lad wrote: »

If it is a weekly or monthly ticket it should not be increasing in price until January afaik

Oh, great! Thanks.

LeftBlank

Dublin Bus site still shows the old fares.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

LXFlyer

That should have been changed.

However, it does show the new fares on the home page:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/General-News/National-Transport-Authority-approves-public-transport-fares-increases/

Mrs OBumble

AppleBottle wrote: »

Is there any document around that has ALL prices?

No.

The full NTA document (not just the press release) has a lot of detail, but from memory, for the regional, so called "stage-carriage" services it gives the % increase by "stage", not the actual price.

Also, as someone said the monthly fares are increasing in January - and ironically these were announced separately and earlier than the regular fares. If you weren't astute reading the release, you could even have thought that it only applies to TaxSaver tickets.

LXFlyer

The NTA document does list all of the fare changes:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Consideration-of-applications-to-increase-cash-Leap-and-pre-paid-tickets-from-Dublin-Bus-Bus-Eireann-Irish-Rail-and-the-RPA-for-2013-November-20121.pdf

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

The NTA document does list all of the fare changes:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Consideration-of-applications-to-increase-cash-Leap-and-pre-paid-tickets-from-Dublin-Bus-Bus-Eireann-Irish-Rail-and-the-RPA-for-2013-November-20121.pdf

That doesn't list all the fares, no outer suburban fares or expresso fares, nor the fact the cash fare for interlink is going up to 5.70

LXFlyer

OK - well the Outer suburban and Xpresso fares are listed here:
http://dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/General-News/National-Transport-Authority-approves-public-transport-fares-increases/

Interlink?

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yet the luas seems to manage it quite easily

On Luas and Dart, you are tagging on and off pre and post travel. On a bus you are doing this at the doorway so it may hold up boarding a little. That said, it should be done IMO in the absence of the NRA allowing a flat fare system.

monkeypants

LeftBlank wrote: »

Dublin Bus site still shows the old fares.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

Indeed. I was looking up a fare for the missus this morning and Googling 'Dublin Bus Fares' brought up a page that had no mention of the rises. As said, did find them on the homepage though.

Mrs OBumble

Carawaystick wrote: »

That doesn't list all the fares, no outer suburban fares or expresso fares, nor the fact the cash fare for interlink is going up to 5.70

I think it only lists the fares for which a subsidy is involved, and therefore NTA approval is needed.

So things like the all-day tickets in Cork and Galway aren't listed, either.

AlekSmart

Losty Dublin wrote: »

On Luas and Dart, you are tagging on and off pre and post travel. On a bus you are doing this at the doorway so it may hold up boarding a little. That said, it should be done IMO in the absence of the NRA allowing a flat fare system.

A Little ????

Attempting to introduce a Tag-on/Tag-off on the existing BAC fleet is unfeasible as it stands.

Imagine,if you will,a fully loaded VT on the 145 arriving into D'Olier St from Heuston Stn....one validator to cope with all the tagging...?

The same issue remains with any of the mainstream routes.

It is almost as if,the authorities have no understanding of the term Dwell-Time,or if they do,have decided it can be totally ignored in the Dublin context.

It remains,for me,the single greatest impediment to improving the Bus Network and making Bus use attractive in some small form.

With no obvious ability or intention to introduce On/Off Tagging then the only realistic option is a Flat-Fare NOW

MOH

LeftBlank wrote: »

Dublin Bus site still shows the old fares.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

Typical of the contempt with which DB treat their passengers. It's still wrong this morning.

I nearly had an argument with a driver yesterday, was taking a longer trip than usual and checked the website before I left to see what the correct fare was, then thought he was overcharging me.

LXFlyer

There is a link to the new fares on the home page:
http://dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/General-News/National-Transport-Authority-approves-public-transport-fares-increases/

Doesn't excuse getting these things wrong though.

AG2R

anyone know what the 5 day student rambler costs now then?

shofukan

I reckon I'll take my next €86+ and buy a bike with it.

etchyed

AlekSmart wrote: »

Imagine,if you will,a fully loaded VT on the 145 arriving into D'Olier St from Heuston Stn....one validator to cope with all the tagging...?

Actually, there would be two validators. And we've discussed this before Alek. How would the above scenario be any slower than everyone having to ask the driver for the fare they want?

AlekSmart

etchyed wrote: »

Actually, there would be two validators. And we've discussed this before Alek. How would the above scenario be any slower than everyone having to ask the driver for the fare they want?

Largely because,the discussion is not universal and is carried out after the departing passengers have left....

Remember 50% of my passengers already use pre-paid means,however the remaining 50% represent a deeply embedded conservative grouping who will resist any form of change to their last breath

Dual Tagging with the current single-door layout would only be possible were I to be issued with a Whip & Chair to enforce boarding ettiquette at CC stops...

On the other hand.....A Flat Fare single-tag on at either TIM or Remote Validator removes ALL conversational requirements (Except to read the small print on mobile phone screeens shoved under one's nose).

The Flat Fare is subsidy intensive,for sure,but given the total absense of any infrastructure to facilitate dual tagging it's the only viable alternative.

However,we shall have to take the NTA's word that a major change in BAC Fare....

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Consideration-of-applications-to-increase-cash-Leap-and-pre-paid-tickets-from-Dublin-Bus-Bus-Eireann-Irish-Rail-and-the-RPA-for-2013-November-20121.pdf

Beyond 2013, Dublin Bus is planning to move to a simplified fares structure, however, this is beyond the scope of the current determination.

It is perhaps noteworthy that most pre-paid BAC Ticket products now appear to have a validity date of Dec 2013...a flag perhaps ???

MOH

lxflyer wrote: »

There is a link to the new fares on the home page:
http://dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/General-News/National-Transport-Authority-approves-public-transport-fares-increases/

Doesn't excuse getting these things wrong though.

There's a link on the front page with the headline "National Transport Authority Approves Public Trans". That doesn't exactly leap out as being a list of new fares.

Julius Seizure

AG2R wrote: »

anyone know what the 5 day student rambler costs now then?

Won't be going up for a month thank god. Maybe stock up on student travel 10'#s

mfceiling

Shoot me if this is a stupid question.

I buy a leap card. I use it to get from my house to terenure (approx 1 mile....6-7 stops).
Tomorrow i use it to go on into the city centre (approx 4-5 miles 15-20 stops).

How does it tell the difference in fares to deduct it from my leap card seeing as you only "tag on"?

LXFlyer

Because you tell the driver how much you want him to deduct.

You put it down on the driver's machine.

mfceiling

lxflyer wrote: »

Because you tell the driver how much you want him to deduct.

You put it down on the driver's machine.

Cheers....thought it was an automated machine like the luas.

dazberry

Dubhaltach wrote: »

Won't be going up for a month thank god. Maybe stock up on student travel 10'#s

This is becoming so common I still have a couple of adult travel 90s @ €19 left, still valid until December 2013.

It's weird to think that this time 2 years ago I was paying €1.15 for one particular journey with the choice of 3 buses per hour, now it's €1.60 (Leap aside) with 1 bus per hour. If it wasn't for RTPI I'd have given up completely....

D.

starviewadams

Makeshift cardboard sign written in biro on the dashboard of the 13 I got home this evening informing passengers of the fare increase!

etchyed

AlekSmart wrote: »

Largely because,the discussion is not universal...

No, indeed only the PAYG passengers have the discussion with you, just as only the PAYG passengers would have to tag off.

...and is carried out after the departing passengers have left....

Of course it is. If the departing passengers had to tag off, it would, admittedly, take a little longer. But then the discussions wouldn't have to take place at all, more than making up for the longer disembarking time.

Remember 50% of my passengers already use pre-paid means

And their boarding and alighting time would remain identical with a tag-off system.

however the remaining 50% represent a deeply embedded conservative grouping who will resist any form of change to their last breath

I don't actually see how this is relevant. If there were a tag-off system, people would quite simply have to use it.

Dual Tagging with the current single-door layout would only be possible were I to be issued with a Whip & Chair to enforce boarding ettiquette at CC stops...

I use the bus every day. In the vast majority of cases, passengers waiting to board the bus wait until everyone else has got off.

Sometimes (and pretty rarely I reckon) people are rude, or daydreaming, or just new to using the bus, and they march on before letting anyone else off. And what happens then? People tut. Just as people tut when someone holds up the ticket barriers at a DART station by not having their ticket ready. And just as people tut in cities that DO have tag-off systems, when one of their fellow passengers blocks the door by not having their smart card ready to tag off.

On public transport, there is social pressure not to be in the way, or to stop things from running smoothly. Your description of human behaviour simply doesn't hold true. I don't doubt that, as a bus driver, you've probably seen far more than your fair share of ridiculous/disgusting behaviour. But you seem to have assimilated all the worst things you've seen into an exaggerated, warped picture of how the average person behaves. Your allusion to whips makes that perfectly clear. It's simply not true. People all over the world deal with group situations far more complex than remembering to touch a card against a reader as they get off the bus.

But most importantly, there is NO REASON why the oblivious ones, who board without realising there are actually quite a few people who'd rather like to get off the bus first, would somehow magically increase in numbers if tag-off were brought in. It would still happen occasionally, it would still be disruptive, but I don't see why it should cause any more grief than it currently does.

On the other hand.....A Flat Fare single-tag on at either TIM or Remote Validator removes ALL conversational requirements (Except to read the small print on mobile phone screeens shoved under one's nose).

The Flat Fare is subsidy intensive,for sure...

Which is why talking about it in the current climate will lead nowhere.

I haven't quoted the rest of your post as it strays from the point.

AlekSmart

etchyed wrote: »

I use the bus every day. In the vast majority of cases, passengers waiting to board the bus wait until everyone else has got off.

Not so,in my experience.

Sometimes (and pretty rarely I reckon) people are rude, or daydreaming, or just new to using the bus, and they march on before letting anyone else off.

I would again disagree with the "pretty rarely" bit,as it is a constant on busier routes,a practice compounded by the single door,narrow throat layout.

And what happens then? People tut. Just as people tut when someone holds up the ticket barriers at a DART station by not having their ticket ready. And just as people tut in cities that DO have tag-off systems, when one of their fellow passengers blocks the door by not having their smart card ready to tag off.

On public transport, there is social pressure not to be in the way, or to stop things from running smoothly. Your description of human behaviour simply doesn't hold true.

I'm afraid it holds quite true from my perspective. The "Social Pressure" you speak of may be common in other locations but I'm afraid is not to my mind prevalent at all in Ireland.

I don't doubt that, as a bus driver, you've probably seen far more than your fair share of ridiculous/disgusting behaviour. But you seem to have assimilated all the worst things you've seen into an exaggerated, warped picture of how the average person behaves. Your allusion to whips makes that perfectly clear. It's simply not true. People all over the world deal with group situations far more complex than remembering to touch a card against a reader as they get off the bus.

But most importantly, there is NO REASON why the oblivious ones, who board without realising there are actually quite a few people who'd rather like to get off the bus first, would somehow magically increase in numbers if tag-off were brought in. It would still happen occasionally, it would still be disruptive, but I don't see why it should cause any more grief than it currently does.

This grouping of oblivious ones currently regularly crowd around the front door making it difficult for everybody else to exit,I regularly have to raise my voice to little-oblivious-old-ladies who don't,or won't see the wheelchair passenger attempting to exit,even with the ramp extended and the recorded warning playing..

Which is why talking about it in the current climate will lead nowhere.

I haven't quoted the rest of your post as it strays from the point.

I think any discussion of the topic is good and serves a purpose,as the entire issue does not appear to engage senior figures at all.

Personally,I favour a multiple tag system as it provides for the greatest range of flexibility in fares and value.

However,where I disagree,is on the capability of multiple tagging to be superimposed upon the current Fleet infrastructure.

I never underestimate the abilities of dedicated non-compliers to significantly worsen the commute for the remainder of passengers who can actually be bothered to plan and contribute to the efficiency of their own journey.

However,the point-straying part may yet assume a greater relevance in the light of the NTA specifying Centre Door Smart Card Reader wiring on the GT Class bus.

A further worthwhile improvement would be to fit Smart Card Readers on those City Centre Stops which have RTPI poles to fulfill a variety of functions such as enabling on-line Leapcard Top-Ups.

bk

Alek, while I agree that single flat fare would be the fastest way to board a bus, I think we all know it is very unlikely to happen for a variety of political reasons.

Given that I honestly believe that tag-on/tag-off even through a single door would be faster then the current Leap process.

On the one hand you have the current process:
- Hold your leap card on the validator
- Tell the driver your destination or fare
- Wait for the driver to select the correct fare
- Wait for an indication that the was correctly charged

- Hope that the person didn't take their card away too fast.

Versus:
- Quickly hold your card to the reader as you pass on
- Quickly hold your card to the reader as you shuffle off

I really don't see how this would be slower then the current method, in fact I expect it would be significantly faster.

After all it isn't as if people are running as they disembark the bus. I notice that on a busy bus I'm usually forced to relatively slowly shuffle off the bus. I could easily tag-off without breaking my stride while doing this, thus adding no extra time.

I would love to do a Myth Busters style test of this. Over the weekend I watched an episode of Myth Busters where they created a mockup of a plane and got hundreds of people to test the various different ways to board a plane, to see which was fastest (with interesting results).

I'd love if the NTA or DB did a similar test with one bus and a bunch of students.

Remember that passengers with other types of tickets would still just tag-on and leap users getting the maximum fare wouldn't need to tag-off.

Also obviously tag-on/tag-off would work great on double door buses when used and as you say it would be relatively easy to put leap validators on the RTPI poles to allow tag-off where available. Really this should have been done since day one when RTPI was rolled out.

You could use such validators to:
- Tag-off the bus
- Check your balance
- Receive online top-ups and refunds from Dublin Bus

I don't think it would allow tag-on for revenue protection reasons (you want the driver to see each person paying as they board the bus) and I don't think it would have any options to top-up, etc. in order to keep the validators cheap and simple *.

* However a few TVM's around busy locations for Dublin Bus wouldn't go a miss.

I think validators on RTPI poles is a great idea and would fix a lot of the issues with Leap on DB.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Alek, while I agree that single flat fare would be the fastest way to board a bus, I think we all know it is very unlikely to happen for a variety of political reasons.

I'd love if the NTA or DB did a similar test with one bus and a bunch of students.

Remember that passengers with other types of tickets would still just tag-on and leap users getting the maximum fare wouldn't need to tag-off.

Also obviously tag-on/tag-off would work great on double door buses when used and as you say it would be relatively easy to put leap validators on the RTPI poles to allow tag-off where available. Really this should have been done since day one when RTPI was rolled out.

You could use such validators to:
- Tag-off the bus
- Check your balance
- Receive online top-ups and refunds from Dublin Bus

I don't think it would allow tag-on for revenue protection reasons (you want the driver to see each person paying as they board the bus) and I don't think it would have any options to top-up, etc. in order to keep the validators cheap and simple *.

* However a few TVM's around busy locations for Dublin Bus wouldn't go a miss.

I think validators on RTPI poles is a great idea and would fix a lot of the issues with Leap on DB.

Probably the largest element of this debate is the reality that we (Dublin Bus & NTA) do not appear to be carrying out any research into the patterns of boarding alighting on our services.

This is the sort of stuff that the likes of TfL,or the former Transport and Road Research Laboratory in the UK excel in.

Our tendency is to get an off-the-shelf system from other places and tap the resulting square peg into our uniquely round hole ( :eek:)

As you say the on-street Smart Card Validator is probably the greatest single (affordable) advance which could be made.

The great joy with the SCV's is their simplicity compared to the old Mag-Stripe ones.

You could build a very comprehensive suite of usability into the present SCV attached to the RTPI pole.

However,as we are continually learning,the current NTA/Leapcard team simple do not appear to have a grasp of the functionality of their own product.

This aspect,rather than any Hard/Software issues is what is really preventing Leapcard's advance popularity .

Dravokivich

etchyed wrote: »

And their boarding and alighting time would remain identical with a tag-off system.

Not entirely, I see people regularly bunching up around validators trying to touch off at train stations. its not very effiecient at all with the Irish mentatility of "I want to be first" which seen just as much at bus stops.

You also need to wait for a bit between cards being read and touched off for the validator to be avail for the next person to use to touch off with.

etchyed

Dravokivich wrote: »

Not entirely

The line of my post you've quoted is in reference to prepay customers, who wouldn't have to tag off at all. I have accepted that the customers who have to tag off would take a little longer

I have also witnessed how people behave with a tag-off system on a bus, and it's not as you describe. They get out their cards in preparation for arrival at a stop, and the ones near the front tag off as the bus is coming to a stop, which speeds things up for everyone.

The exceptionalism that you and Alek spout is just bollocks, to be frank. There is absolutely nothing fundamentally different about Irish people that means this couldn't work.

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

You also need to wait for a bit between cards being read and touched off for the validator to be avail for the next person to use to touch off with.

That is milliseconds, much faster then any human could use it, so wouldn't be an issue.