This has to be against building Regs???

spankmemunkey

Hi all,

I bought a house in 2009 the house was built in the same year however the thing i noticed was the Fuse Board is mounted on a wall directly below the bath upstairs, the plug hole from the bath is about 10 inches away from the fuse board, If theres ever a leak from that bath then were fried, Electricity also arcs!

Im sure theyve broken some sort of regulations there, this is a real hazard baths do leak, seal do leak if it does then me or my kids could be killed.

bigneacy

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Hi all,

I bought a house in 2009 the house was built in the same year however the thing i noticed was the Fuse Board is mounted on a wall directly below the bath upstairs, the plug hole from the bath is about 10 inches away from the fuse board, If theres ever a leak from that bath then were fried, Electricity also arcs!

Im sure theyve broken some sort of regulations there, this is a real hazard baths do leak, seal do leak if it does then me or my kids could be killed.

You own the house? And presumably have lived in it for 3 years? Do you think 'they' should come round 3 years later and fix it for you? If its bothering you, call an electrician and get it sorted!

DOCARCH

If you are worried I would suggest contact the ESB and ask them to comment and/or contact RECI and they will tell you whether or not it is contrary to regulations.

kippy

bigneacy wrote: »

You own the house? And presumably have lived in it for 3 years? Do you think 'they' should come round 3 years later and fix it for you? If its bothering you, call an electrician and get it sorted!

A tad harsh, no?

If the fitting is against building requirements the OP has a reason to ask how it managed to pass through a number of checks......and possibly seek some form of fix.

I daresay moving a fuseboard isn't straightforward or cheap.

spankmemunkey

Wow have a bad day? I was just wondering was it against building regs, I dont expect anybody to come around and fix it for me, and i didnt realise till some stage later that it might be a danger, i also didnt know where to go.

spankmemunkey

kippy wrote: »

A tad harsh, no?

If the fitting is against building requirements the OP has a reason to ask how it managed to pass through a number of checks......and possibly seek some form of fix.

I daresay moving a fuseboard isn't straightforward or cheap.

DOCARCH wrote: »

If you are worried I would suggest contact the ESB and ask them to comment and/or contact RECI and they will tell you whether or not it is contrary to regulations.

Thank guys you gave me the answer i was looking for and reacted to that other poster the same way i did, The people in Priory Hall were none the wiser were they? alot of houses were signed off on and should not have been.

Moving a fuse board would need a complete rewire in this case and would not be cheap. I think i will try get in touch with RECI or ESB, I got in touch with my local council planning dept and am waiting an answer!

Maggie 2

Might be cheaper to move the bath! Good Luck.

monkeysnapper

bigneacy wrote: »

You own the house? And presumably have lived in it for 3 years? Do you think 'they' should come round 3 years later and fix it for you? If its bothering you, call an electrician and get it sorted!

jeez, talk about having a huge chip on your shoulder. :mad:

spankmemunkey

Hi all thanks for the help, I got onto RECI and i got a good response from them and the guy i was speaking with was very helpful, Im still waiting on the council to get back to me, I presume its the council as they signed off on the plans, whos responsible for building regulations? the council? anyway the guy from RECI said he may send someone out for an inspection after i get a response from the council. something tells me their going to drag their heels!

muffler

If its a private house it has nothing to do with the council. Whoever built it should have had their own arch/engineer/technician there for the purpose of "signing off"

spankmemunkey

muffler wrote: »

If its a private house it has nothing to do with the council. Whoever built it should have had their own arch/engineer/technician there for the purpose of "signing off"

Thanks for the reply, whos responsible for building regs then? surely thats self regulation? and if its a danger to life can the council intervene like they did in Priory Hall?

deandean

No non-compliance with building regs there, OP.

Also no non-compliance with national Rules for Electrical Installations as far as I can see.

If the consumer board was installed IN the bathroom, that'd be a problem !

Sure water pipes and wiring often run side-by-side through floor voids.

spankmemunkey

deandean wrote: »

No non-compliance with building regs there, OP.

Also no non-compliance with national Rules for Electrical Installations as far as I can see.

If the consumer board was installed IN the bathroom, that'd be a problem !

Sure water pipes and wiring often run side-by-side through floor voids.

Thanks for the reply, I was onto reci and the response i got conflicts with what your saying, why is there no light switches permitted in a bathroom? yet its okay to place a fuse board directly below a bath at least 10 inches away from plug hole, Of course wires run under floor boards but they dont pose a direct risk of death as it does when your sitting in a bath and it leaks onto the fuse board a few inches below you.

What you say is right as said to me by reci the regulations state that you can have a fuse board in the hall and thats it, however i was also told a very important word by Reci EXTERNAL INFLUENCES. I dont want to quote what i was told over the phone but lets say i have a case and it will be going on after the conversation with Reci

sydthebeat

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, I was onto reci and the response i got conflicts with what your saying, why is there no light switches permitted in a bathroom? yet its okay to place a fuse board directly below a bath at least 10 inches away from plug hole, Of course wires run under floor boards but they dont pose a direct risk of death as it does when your sitting in a bath and it leaks onto the fuse board a few inches below you.

What you say is right as said to me by reci the regulations state that you can have a fuse board in the hall and thats it, however i was also told a very important word by Reci EXTERNAL INFLUENCES. I dont want to quote what i was told over the phone but lets say i have a case and it will be going on after the conversation with Reci

why not?

if you have important and pertinent information, why not share it?

either its a breach of regulation or its not......

muffler

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, whos responsible for building regs then? surely thats self regulation? and if its a danger to life can the council intervene like they did in Priory Hall?

The house owner is responsible for compliance with building regulations. None of us like it but that's the way it is.

If you feel there has been a clear breach of the regs then you can of course contact your local building control dept. but from personal experience you may well be told the same thing - you are responsible or the person who built it is responsible

spankmemunkey

sydthebeat wrote: »

why not?

if you have important and pertinent information, why not share it?

either its a breach of regulation or its not......

Cos alot of what i was told was off the record by RECI and i was given good info, i think you should just read between the lines or send me a pm

Ive just heard back from the council and i was told that its nothing to do with them or planning control but im getting an email from the council engineers something to the effect that the house shouldnt have been signed off on by the builders engineers!

sinnerboy

This thread is moved from Construction and Planning

Bruthal

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Hi all,

I bought a house in 2009 the house was built in the same year however the thing i noticed was the Fuse Board is mounted on a wall directly below the bath upstairs, the plug hole from the bath is about 10 inches away from the fuse board, If theres ever a leak from that bath then were fried,

It may be hard to believe, but it would be extremely unlikely anyone in the bath would be electrocuted in that scenario. Fresh water is actually a very poor conductor in electrical terms, contrary to the belief of the masses.

Electricity also arcs!

It does, but where is it going to arc to? At 230v it needs a fairly high current flow to be interrupted (circuit opened), for it to arc any more than a few mm.

Im sure theyve broken some sort of regulations there, this is a real hazard baths do leak, seal do leak if it does then me or my kids could be killed.

Sounds like cowboy work alright. But imo, there is little danger of deaths in the bath.

It still should be sorted out though.

M cebee

there's a couple of regulations on distribution boards,external influences etc. but they don't seem to me to rule it out as a location

i wouldn't fit one under a bath myself

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

i wouldn't fit one under a bath myself

No I would`t myself either, it could cause a few problems if a leak did occur alright.

2011

This does not break any of the applicable ETCI wiring regulations (ET:101).

I very much doubt that RECI or anyone else will be able to show any specific wiring regulations that are broken, all they can do is say something vague which is ultimately meaningless.

Many homes would have a radiator or some sort of piping passing over the distribution board.

cast_iron

I've seen a water pipe burst and drown a large 3 phase board.
All relevant safety devices operated as expected and no harm or great damage was caused to the electrical installation. A hair dryer and a few fuses fixed all.
Though the water damage to the surrounding area was much more difficult to fix.

I've never heard of a regulation that would stop placing the board below a bath/bathroom.

M cebee

if i remember right the 2 general rules cover the environment in which the board is installed and damage from faults in other services
if it wasn't allowed under bath/shower it would prob be mentioned specifically in the rule on locations not allowed

firlodge

muffler wrote: »

The house owner is responsible for compliance with building regulations. None of us like it but that's the way it is.

If you feel there has been a clear breach of the regs then you can of course contact your local building control dept. but from personal experience you may well be told the same thing - you are responsible or the person who built it is responsible

Hi
If a qualified person (Engineer, Architect etc with PI) has been involved (which today in Ireland has to be or else you wont' get a mortgage or a sizable loan for renovations) then you are covered as you claim off their insurance.
I am one of those people so I know all about it! - but so far so good!

2011

firlodge wrote: »

Hi
If a qualified person (Engineer, Architect etc with PI) has been involved (which today in Ireland has to be or else you wont' get a mortgage or a sizable loan for renovations) then you are covered as you claim off their insurance.
I am one of those people so I know all about it! - but so far so good!

I am one of "those people" too. Covered for what?

Bruthal

It does`t look like there is any claim to be made here anyway.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Many homes would have a radiator or some sort of piping passing over the distribution board.

It probably a little more risk of water coming down from the bath, I seen a few houses where the side of the bath was not sealed great, and signs of water can be seen on ceilings below. But a lot of houses have the slight possibility of water going into the DB no matter where it is alright. But its very low risk.

sinnerboy

My own unfortunate experience of a bathroom leak is that water builds up on top of the plasterboard up to 50mm deep ! It finds the weak spot - your light fitting. Imagine going for you cornflakes to find your light fitting is raining!

If you ever find this happen to you then use a screwdriver or similar to puncture holes and "drain" your floor before it eventually collapses in a soggy mess.

There was no damage to any of my electrics afterwards btw.

OP - with respect the scene you are imaging is straight out of one of the "Final Destination" franchise of movies. There is no regulation breach and you are not in danger.

spankmemunkey

robbie7730 wrote: »

It may be hard to believe, but it would be extremely unlikely anyone in the bath would be electrocuted in that scenario. Fresh water is actually a very poor conductor in electrical terms, contrary to the belief of the masses.


It does, but where is it going to arc to? At 230v it needs a fairly high current flow to be interrupted (circuit opened), for it to arc any more than a few mm.


Sounds like cowboy work alright. But imo, there is little danger of deaths in the bath.

It still should be sorted out though.

I dont know why this was moved to the electrical thread as its a planning issue as ive said before and as said to me by RECI there are no regulations broken by placing a board in the hall, although external influences should be considered when placing a bath directly above it.
Why is it that if your in a bath and a hair dryer is thrown in with you your dead yet if your lying in a bath and it leaks onto a board below you should be fine???? why arent light switches allowed in a bathroom? why is the IP rating of a light fitting in bathroom different? why all these rules and then oh okay you can physically fit a fuse board close than you can a light switch??

The issue is probably more with the positioning of the bath, I got a response from my local council and was told more or less that it shouldnt have been signed off on, Its a self regulatory thing the fire chief signed off on the electrical plans for safety and the builders engineer signed off on the work.

Ive asked the council engineer to let me know what my options ow are.

The bath is also on a cascading wall so if the shower is used the water will run down that wall and if the seal is broken down behind the bath.

spankmemunkey

2011 wrote: »

This does not break any of the applicable ETCI wiring regulations (ET:101).

I very much doubt that RECI or anyone else will be able to show any specific wiring regulations that are broken, all they can do is say something vague which is ultimately meaningless.

Many homes would have a radiator or some sort of piping passing over the distribution board.

You dont sit naked in your radiator so if that leaks grand something trips out and fuse blows, if my kids are sitting in th ebath if cables run side by side by a pipe grand its PVC PVC and should be covered again something might trip out but go sit in your bath when it sits above a fuse board and think about how safe that feels, believe me it doesnt.

Again the positioning of the FUSE BOARD does not break any wiring laws but its the positioning of the bath that i have a problem with baths move over the years due to getting in and out, they leaks and seals break and water will get to the fuse board eventually!

spankmemunkey

sinnerboy wrote: »

This thread is moved from Construction and Planning

Its not about electrics its about planning and the positioning of a bath!!!! dont see why you moved it!

Bruthal

sinnerboy wrote: »

My own unfortunate experience of a bathroom leak is that water builds up on top of the plasterboard up to 50mm deep ! It finds the weak spot - your light fitting. Imagine going for you cornflakes to find your light fitting is raining!

If you ever find this happen to you then use a screwdriver or similar to puncture holes and "drain" your floor before it eventually collapses in a soggy mess.

There was no damage to any of my electrics afterwards btw.

Yea I had it myself here from the ensuite above the kitchen. Down through the kitchen light. It was handy, i was able to make the hole in the ceiling above the sink:)

OP - with respect the scene you are imaging is straight out of one of the "Final Destination" franchise of movies. There is no regulation breach and you are not in danger.

Yea, not much danger of electrical shock even of the plug hole disappeared and the water flowed straight into the DB, there would be little shock danger to anyone in the bath.

Dardania

OP, as an electrical engineer, I don't reckon that your situation is against building regulations. However, if you believe it to be, a handy way to check is to look at the Technical Guidance Documents to compkly with building regulations - see: http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/. Bear in mind that those docs are not retrospective, your building would have to comply with the regulations in force when the house was built...

I noticed that much of the regulations regarding siting of electrical equipment is covered in the ETCI regulations as the other posters note.

Bruthal

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Why is it that if your in a bath and a hair dryer is thrown in with you your dead yet if your lying in a bath and it leaks onto a board below you should be fine???? why arent light switches allowed in a bathroom? why is the IP rating of a light fitting in bathroom different? why all these rules and then oh okay you can physically fit a fuse board close than you can a light switch??

If a hair dryer is thrown into a bath, its not certain to be fatal.

Also, that is far different from water dribbling onto a fuseboard sell outside the bath. Why are we not killed when it rains with 110,000 volt overhead lines nearby?

Water is a poor conductor, but it decreases the skin contact resistance. It has a large area (finger tips in mm2) and extremely short conductor length (fraction of mm) when wet hands are touching a live point, and so severe shocks result from that if there are at least 2 points of 230v potential difference contact.

From the bath to the fuseboard, it would be a very long conductor length (2 or 3 feet likely at minimum) that the water forms, which would have very poor conduction up to the bath, and very narrow conductor width. There simply would not be any shock danger inside the bath with that.

Switches in bathrooms are not allowed due to the very close proximity of live contacts with the gaps in the switch rockers, but even if they were allowed, electrocution would be unlikely especially with latest regs. They allow sockets and switches in bathrooms in other countries without much problem.

I got small shocks on a farm from absolutely drenched switches once or twice, no real danger of being electrocuted from that. I would think if some had touched the same switch, they would have thought they had been blown across the outhouse, and barely survived, mainly from the terror and then losing their balance as they jump with fright.

So all in all, no danger of electrocution in the bath from a DB in the room below, no matter how the bath leaks.

sydthebeat

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Its not about electrics its about planning and the positioning of a bath!!!! dont see why you moved it!

its quite obviously about electrics and NOTHING to do with planning issues.

Its also nothing to do with the location of the bath... the location is usually designed at initial design stage.
the *specific* location of the MCB however is down to the electrician and common sense would dictate not to have it located directly under a bath U bend.

However you have been told by members on here that its not against regulations.
My own homework also tells me that there are no regulation breach in this.

2011

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Why is it that if your in a bath and a hair dryer is thrown in with you your dead

Because it makes good TV. Although I would not recommend it the chances of being injured or killed are remote.

yet if your lying in a bath and it leaks onto a board below you should be fine????

Ditto

why arent light switches allowed in a bathroom? why is the IP rating of a light fitting in bathroom different?

Because with wet hands there is an unacceptable risk of shock. This is not the case with a board located under a bath. With the light switch the best path to earth is more likely to be through a person. With the board it is much more likely to be through the multiple neutral and / or earth conductors.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Because it makes good TV. Although I would not recommend it the chances of being injured or killed are remote.

Its an interesting one that, I might leave that one off my list of experiments though...

brightspark

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Why is it that if your in a bath and a hair dryer is thrown in with you your dead yet if your lying in a bath and it leaks onto a board below you should be fine???? why arent light switches allowed in a bathroom? why is the IP rating of a light fitting in bathroom different? .

Because electricity likes to find the shortest path.

hair dryer in bath and the shortest path is possibly through you.

if the board gets wet the shortest path is going to be within the board. it certainly won't be up to the bath through the occupant and back down again!

switches are not allowed because if they were wet the shortest path could be through the wet finger, down the arm, pdf past the heart, down through wet feet!

higher ip rating is mainly due to the steamy conditions and to prevent accidental contact. Also an unprotected lamp can shatter if wet and then turned on.

Another point to consider is that water doesn't always leak straight down, but often follows joists etc. so there is no certainty that any leak upstairs won't find it's way to wherever the board is located.

Bruthal

brightspark wrote: »

switches are not allowed because if they were wet the shortest path could be through the wet finger, down the arm, pdf past the heart, down through wet feet!.

Electrocution would be still be very unlikely though, via a wet switch.

brightspark

robbie7730 wrote: »

Electrocution would be still be very unlikely though, via a wet switch.

Yes, I agree it would be very unlikely, but perhaps if someone had a weak heart, very wet feet and hands, and managed to still hold the switch while being shocked, it might just happen.

spankmemunkey

Okay everybody thanks for your replys! I think i can just leave it now, I still think that its not a great positioning of a fuse board under a bath, I think it would have been better to have placed the board the other side of the hall, you all have to admit that leaking water onto a board still isnt recommended but thanks again for your opinions, I have to say the guy in RECI told me he wouldnt sign off on it, even though its not against regulations he did say external influences should have been considered, he did also say that if water go onto the board the main fuse should blow or the RCD trip.

muffler

spankmemunkey wrote: »

he did also say that if water go onto the board the main fuse should blow or the RCD trip.

There ya go

2011

spankmemunkey wrote: »

I think i can just leave it now, I still think that its not a great positioning of a fuse board under a bath, I think it would have been better to have placed the board the other side of the hall,

Agreed, another location would have been preferable. However this does not mean that it is against any rules or regulations, consequently if you want it moved it will mean paying someone to move it.

you all have to admit that leaking water onto a board still isnt recommended

Water & electricity are traditionally a bad mix, there is no denying that.

I have to say the guy in RECI told me he wouldnt sign off on it

My experience with RECI inspectors has been very negative, so I would take that with a large pinch of salt. I found it impossible to get them to take any action when they admitted that important ETCI regulations were broken and in my opinion "bad practice" was employed.

even though its not against regulations he did say external influences should have been considered

Which is absolutely correct. For all we know the board was installed first, and then the bath was an after thought. You may also find that the board location may have been selected by the architect and the electrical contractor was simply installing it where it was marked on the drawing without even knowing that a bath was to be installed above it.

M cebee

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Okay everybody thanks for your replys! I think i can just leave it now, I still think that its not a great positioning of a fuse board under a bath, I think it would have been better to have placed the board the other side of the hall, you all have to admit that leaking water onto a board still isnt recommended but thanks again for your opinions, I have to say the guy in RECI told me he wouldnt sign off on it, even though its not against regulations he did say external influences should have been considered, he did also say that if water go onto the board the main fuse should blow or the RCD trip.

the 2 general rules cover:
- protection against adverse 'environmental condtions' dust,moisture etc.
to me that means the environment in the room in which board is located

the other rule relates to damage from faults in other services.
-can you say that leaking wastes or badly fitted bath trim and the like are faults in other services?

2011

M cebee wrote: »

-can you say that leaking wastes or badly fitted bath trim and the like are faults in other services?

I think that could only be argued if you could demonstrate that there was a high probability of a leak.
How high a probability, how long is apiece of string?
Very subjective.

Bruthal

brightspark wrote: »

Yes, I agree it would be very unlikely, but perhaps if someone had a weak heart, very wet feet and hands, and managed to still hold the switch while being shocked, it might just happen.

There is still a danger, and that is, people who get mild shocks often jump with fear, fall etc, and this is multiple times more dangerous than the shock that might be received from a switch itself in a bathroom.

You can read stories (there was a thread on boards recently about it)of people who touched both pins of lamp holder with a finger while standing on a bed etc, claim they were thrown across the room, something not realistic in that scenario from the actual electric shock.

james142

After reading this post I have just realised that my fuse box is directly under my bath tub too :eek:

spankmemunkey

2011 wrote: »

I think that could only be argued if you could demonstrate that there was a high probability of a leak.
How high a probability, how long is apiece of string?
Very subjective.

Think about it, when you fill a bath with water your increasing pressue on a fibreglass structure, then you get into it adding more weight, I have had experience of baths leaking, my mothers bath leaks where the bath sits on its feet theres like two holders under it, the bath moves after years of getting in and out and it now leaks ever so slightly, theres also a chance of water getting behind the bath on the cascading wall if your having a shower. and dont forget the bad quality of materials used during the property boom,

I didnt get a second reply from my county council when i suggested that it wasnt the electrical rules that were broken rather the planning position of the bath i asked was the council not envolved in signing off on these plans i didnt get a reply!

Bruthal

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Think about it, when you fill a bath with water your increasing pressue on a fibreglass structure, then you get into it adding more weight, I have had experience of baths leaking, my mothers bath leaks where the bath sits on its feet theres like two holders under it, the bath moves after years of getting in and out and it now leaks ever so slightly, theres also a chance of water getting behind the bath on the cascading wall if your having a shower. and dont forget the bad quality of materials used during the property boom,

I didnt get a second reply from my county council when i suggested that it wasnt the electrical rules that were broken rather the planning position of the bath i asked was the council not envolved in signing off on these plans i didnt get a reply!

So you still believe a person in the bath can be electrocuted from water leaking from it to the DB in a room below?

spankmemunkey

robbie7730 wrote: »

So you still believe a person in the bath can be electrocuted from water leaking from it to the DB in a room below?

Im not convinced but ill have to take your word for it, and there is recordings of people dying in the bath with a hair dryer for the other poster who says its not gonna happen.
Anyway im not fond of the idea of taking a bath showers only in the other room

Bruthal

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Im not convinced but ill have to take your word for it, and there is recordings of people dying in the bath with a hair dryer for the other poster who says its not gonna happen.
Anyway im not fond of the idea of taking a bath showers only in the other room

I agree with the other poster about the hair dryer. But the fact is, a hair dryer within the bath, is not going to be even remotely like a leak down to the mcb board.

But besides that, you best remove the light fittings below as well, as the water is far more likely to build up around that, than make a continuous conductor to the mcb board.

I had that happen in my house (light fitting below ensuite shower), and neighbour as well. We both survived no problem. I had to make holes in ceiling to release water, and in neighbours case, the light fitting was drenched when I removed it.

How many have you heard of, electrocuted in a bath here through leaking water? I doubt your setup is unique.

What about when immersion elements fail? Live elements often straight into the water. How many were electrocuted from that? They trip these days due to having RCD`s on them, the same as a hair dryer into bath likely would if any current flowed into the water/person, and to earth. But years ago they stayed on.

There is a lot of myth around electrical stuff, and this leak from a bath into a board below, or light fitting, and electrocuting someone in the bath, is a new one on me, most likely something for a final destination film as someone else suggested I think.