Majority of people in south want a united Ireland

Crooked Jack

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1127/1224327144275.html

Sorry if this has been done already, I didn't see one.

A new poll suggests that the majority of people in the south want a united Ireland, even if it would lead to an increase in taxes.
The poll asks a number of questions and it makes interesting reading.
So do you feel this is an accurate reflection of people's feelings?
Even with all the economic bother would the people of the 26 counties still vote for unity if it came down to it?

0ph0rce0

In before it turns into a Sinn Fein bashing thread. :rolleyes:

Sure why not I say, no harm in giving it a go and getting back whats ours

hyperborean

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

In before it turns into a Sinn Fein bashing thread. :rolleyes:

Sure why not I say, no harm in giving it a go and getting back whats ours

Who is this ours? Never was ours, and the majority of the north dont want anything to do with the republic?

Ziphius

Do you have a source for the original poll?

Fr Tod Umptious

Crooked Jack wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1127/1224327144275.html

Sorry if this has been done already, I didn't see one.

A new poll suggests that the majority of people in the south want a united Ireland, even if it would lead to an increase in taxes.
The poll asks a number of questions and it makes interesting reading.
So do you feel this is an accurate reflection of people's feelings?
Even with all the economic bother would the people of the 26 counties still vote for unity if it came down to it?

Yes I'm afraid it would be a true reflection.

Even though I do not want to see a UI myself I believe that romantic sentiment will lead a majority in the Republic to vote for one when the day comes.

mathepac

hyperborean wrote: »

Who is this ours? Never was ours, and the majority of the north dont want anything to do with the republic?

Did you really mean to say that majority of the people in Northern Ireland don't want anything to do with Ireland?

"Give us back our Teddy's head!"

Shea O'Meara

I've read enough of these threads I can sum it up...

United Ireland?
Up the 'Ra!
I'm British!
Too expensive!
Sure why not.
But I'm British!
Britain wants rid anyway.
No, I'm British!
Battle of the Boyne was a fix!
MOD CLOSES THREAD.

Personally, a united Ireland is Ireland's natural state of being. The northern Irish people who consider themselves British are welcome to continue to do so, that's their buisiness.
Those who whine about the expense are generally trying to seem fiscal and business minded, which has no place in such decisions. You don't leave your Children in a workhouse because you want to eat steak seven nights a week instead of one.

Death and Taxes

Genuinely would not want to see a UI.

gaffer91

I would be absolutely against the idea of a United Ireland.

Absorbing an area of land which receives circa £5 billion in government grants yearly is simply unaffordable. The social tensions between the two communities are also something we could do without.

It would also lead to an influx of SF voters into our political system which would be extremely detrimental to society.

c_man

I wouldn't be too happy seeing ~20% of the Dail consist of the types of DUP religious bigots whom we'd be absorbing.

mike65

Majority want apple pie too.

Almost half the people in the Republic consider Northern Ireland to be Irish and British, according to the Ipsos MRBI 50th anniversary poll.

That's an interesting point given what one normally hears from Shinners/republicans down here.

oh wait

Asked if they considered the people of Northern Ireland to be Irish, British, both or neither – 46 per cent said both, 30 per cent said Irish, 9 per cent said British, 4 per cent said neither and 10 per cent had no opinion.

Hmmm, foreigners account for that I'll guess.

Godge

Getting back to the poll and away from posters' personal preferences or silly views about "the natural state of being", reading the article the one thing that struck me most clearly was the fact that the vast majority did not expect to see a united Ireland in their lifetime.

In effect, from a reliable polling point of view, that finding rendered the rest of the poll meaningless. People are not going to seriously consider views on something that is not likely to happen in their lifetime. For another example, look at the failures to take decisive action on climate change. Lots of people talk the talk but few give up their guzzling cars because the consequences are so far away. Similarly, it is easy to say a United Ireland is a good idea when you will not have to face the reality of it in your lifetime. You see the same thing with many referenda in their early stages with strange polls that are not reflected on polling day.

All in all, the poll has about as much worth as a poll on which Star Wars personality you would most like to meet.

Green Diesel

Sure why not is my attitude.

If they wanted to join, come on in, I'm a welcoming fellow.

Crooked Jack

hyperborean wrote: »

Who is this ours? Never was ours, and the majority of the north dont want anything to do with the republic?

Hmm, yes it was, it's part of Ireland and as such belongs to the Irish people.

I think that as people in the north gradually move away from traditional divisions and begin to examine what is actually best for them unification will come around naturally.
Also, you'll forgive me if I place very little stock in what the majority of people in an area artificially cordoned off from the rest of the country to give a foreign power the result they wanted say.

Anyway, the poll only asked people in the south so lets keep that the focus of the thread.

Crooked Jack

Godge wrote: »

Getting back to the poll and away from posters' personal preferences or silly views about "the natural state of being", reading the article the one thing that struck me most clearly was the fact that the vast majority did not expect to see a united Ireland in their lifetime.

In effect, from a reliable polling point of view, that finding rendered the rest of the poll meaningless. People are not going to seriously consider views on something that is not likely to happen in their lifetime. For another example, look at the failures to take decisive action on climate change. Lots of people talk the talk but few give up their guzzling cars because the consequences are so far away. Similarly, it is easy to say a United Ireland is a good idea when you will not have to face the reality of it in your lifetime. You see the same thing with many referenda in their early stages with strange polls that are not reflected on polling day.

All in all, the poll has about as much worth as a poll on which Star Wars personality you would most like to meet.

well, what "worth" does any poll have. All polls are ever designed to do is give a snapshot of people's opinions. That what it has done. That's its worth. No opinion poll has ever decided anything

_Whimsical_

Green Diesel wrote: »

Sure why not is my attitude.

If they wanted to join, come on in, I'm a welcoming fellow.

Are you welcoming enough to find an around an £10bn in our annual budget to subsidise the 6 counties? Right now they run at a circa £10 bn tax deficit each year.

Public spending per head has consistently been 20-24% higher than the UK average and is the highest of any UK region. As a result of this, Northern Ireland runs at an annual deficit, requiring circa £10bn of annual funding from Westminster, over and above the tax contributions made by individuals and companies within the province.

Source before anyone asks: http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/grassroots/2012/11/northern-ireland-decision-time-corporation-tax-power.html

I would like a united Ireland however not at that price and I think most would agree. "Romantic Ireland's dead and gone ..." .This generation has seen that practical realities are painfully inescapable.

Ziphius

Crooked Jack wrote: »

well, what "worth" does any poll have. All polls are ever designed to do is give a snapshot of people's opinions. That what it has done. That's its worth. No opinion poll has ever decided anything

Well, without seeing the original questions we can't really extract any meaning from this poll.

For example 64% of people see a UI as "something to hope for". Which, to me, seems particularly vague. I think there is a subtle difference between saying that and "wanting a United Ireland".

What is interesting, however, is that 46% of respondents consider the people of Northern Ireland to be both Irish and British. And that the majority of Irish people do not see a united Ireland as something that will happen soon -- 35% of people believe it will never happen.

Green Diesel

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Are you welcoming enough to find an around an £10bn in our annual budget to subsidise the 6 counties? Right now they run at a circa £10 bn tax deficit each year.

We'll see what the economic arguments are at the time, but yes I'd imagine both economies would ultimately benefit from a union.

Crooked Jack

Ziphius wrote: »

Well, without seeing the original questions we can't really extract any meaning from this poll.

For example 64% of people see a UI as "something to hope for". Which, to me, seems particularly vague. I think there is a subtle difference between saying that and "wanting a United Ireland".

What is interesting, however, is that 46% of respondents consider the people of Northern Ireland to be both Irish and British. And that the majority of Irish people do not see a united Ireland as something that will happen soon -- 35% of people believe it will never happen.

why would you hope for something you didn't want?

Crooked Jack

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Are you welcoming enough to find an around an £10bn in our annual budget to subsidise the 6 counties? Right now they run at a circa £10 bn tax deficit each year.


Source before anyone asks: http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/grassroots/2012/11/northern-ireland-decision-time-corporation-tax-power.html

I would like a united Ireland however not at that price and I think most would agree. "Romantic Ireland's dead and gone ..." .This generation has seen that practical realities are painfully inescapable.

It gets a £10bn block grant (for now) but raises about £5bn for the exchequer, so you can halve that for a start.
Anyway, it's not appropriate to equate spending under British rule with what it would be in a united Ireland. Unity would be a game changer, it's not helpful to make guesses or assumptions like that.
What is needed is a proper examination into how it would (or wouldnt) work

loggedoff

c_man wrote: »

I wouldn't be too happy seeing ~20% of the Dail consist of the types of DUP religious bigots whom we'd be absorbing.

It'd be great fun to watch though.
Maybe a decent shake up of the political system on the whole island is what's needed, it's pretty stagnent right now!

Ziphius

Crooked Jack wrote: »

why would you hope for something you didn't want?

Hope, to me, implies a sort of passivity rather than an active wanting or desire. As I said it's a subtle difference and wasn't really the point I was trying to make.

neaideabh

I couldn't give a flying f()ck about a united Ireland. But it does bother me that our national rugby team cannot be identified by our national flag! I don't care what they say up north! If they want to represent themselves on a national level, let them set up their own team!

See the world rankings the other day and there is ireland in it with this meaningless green flag! and don't get me started on the "Ireland's Own" anthem!

Sierra Oscar

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

In before it turns into a Sinn Fein bashing thread. :rolleyes:

Sure why not I say, no harm in giving it a go and getting back whats ours

Funny you should mention that, because the polling indicates that Sinn Féin supporters are not welcoming of the prospect of achieving a united Ireland when compared to all of the other mainstream political parties.

Does it suit Sinn Féin to have partition? What is the explanation for the lack of support for unity within Sinn Féin?

Iwasfrozen

neaideabh wrote: »

I couldn't give a flying f()ck about a united Ireland. But it does bother me that our national rugby team cannot be identified by our national flag! I don't care what they say up north! If they want to represent themselves on a national level, let them set up their own team!

See the world rankings the other day and there is ireland in it with this meaningless green flag! and don't get me started on the "Ireland's Own" anthem!

Would you rather see them in a united British team?

neaideabh

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Would you rather see them in a united British team?

Did ya not see what I said? Let them set up their own team! It works for soccer.
A united british team never came into the equation.

Rebelkell

We are looking at this the wrong way

What we should be looking at is the possibility of pawning off Donegal and the rest of Sean Quinn land counties to the north.

That would teach the brits a lesson i can tell you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

old hippy

I used to think it would be a good thing. But then I grew out of this patriotism lark. I have no real wish to see a united Ireland or a United Kingdom, come to think of it.

You could well give it a try, though. Another 40 years of violence and mayhem is probably just what we need to take our minds off the recession.

sanbrafyffe

i genuinely dont think the timeing is right just yet and either do the people of n.i,,,however there is only one thing that will unite us and that what we do with our fingers to sign a certain piece of paper,,,yes money

i see this week former loyalists meeting irish parlimentary personel and funny enough peter robinson of the dup putting his strongest ever party conference speech the other day,,,his aim,,,to get the catholics involved in the dup,,,,wat will be his success rate,,,,,sweet fuxx all,,,why beacuse 98% of catholics vote for nationalist parties,,,,what is he worried about,,,,the increase in the nationalist youth voting economics,,,next month december 2012,the british goverenments census team will publish their census papers on 2012 and forecomeing 2013 ,,,what is expected,,,a stronger nationalist vote for the very first time in the history of the northern ireland state.hard to believe.ian paisley aslways said that one day the nationalist vote would be stronger than the unionist and he was dead right

sanbrafyffe

this will never happen,,,people have now moved on,,violence gets us no where

old hippy wrote: »

I used to think it would be a good thing. But then I grew out of this patriotism lark. I have no real wish to see a united Ireland or a United Kingdom, come to think of it.

You could well give it a try, though. Another 40 years of violence and mayhem is probably just what we need to take our minds off the recession.

Mr Simpson

I'm not sure I'd like to see it myself. I feel that we are a long way off a situation where we could have a peaceful transition. No matter what we do, there will be a group of people who will not be happy, and are perfectly ok with using violence as a means to vocalise their disatisfaction.

Dewey collins

i'm not too sure whether i want an united ireland, i just don't think the time is right but maybe a bit down the line, i would like to see both parts of ireland united again

Godge

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Hmm, yes it was, it's part of Ireland and as such belongs to the Irish people.

I think that as people in the north gradually move away from traditional divisions and begin to examine what is actually best for them unification will come around naturally.
Also, you'll forgive me if I place very little stock in what the majority of people in an area artificially cordoned off from the rest of the country to give a foreign power the result they wanted say.

Anyway, the poll only asked people in the south so lets keep that the focus of the thread.

Well if you go back far enough, we were all part of Pangaea (us, the UK, Europe, Asia etc.) and should we therefore belong to the Pangaean dinosaurs or whatever was living then?

Just become something once was doesn't mean it should always be or should be again.

loggedoff

Godge wrote: »

Just become something once was doesn't mean it should always be or should be again.

Equally that could be said of partition on this island.

[Jackass]

I think people are very forgiving of British rule, this isn't very PC, but in fairness it is part of our island and we put up with centuries of terrible abuse for defend our land. Of course it is ours and the majority of people there who don't want to be part of the south aren't indiginous, they descend from plantations to dilute and control the Irish people. It's one thing that still grates with me, sentiment that "Ulster" is part of the UK...politically maybe, but for the union jack fliers, I don't understand how they feel that it is legitimately British rather than the flag flying being more about anti-Irish and inflamitory.

I know some people are fed up with the debate and will think my comments are "up da ra, fook da brits, sinn fein!! blah blah blah" ... but they're not. I think there is still a gaping wound in our historical treatment and the only reason the North was not handed back was ego of not admitting defeat and also to protect the plantation unionist population.

The threat to them is gone and I think it will always be a bitter reference to our treatment until the whole island is united again, and I don't regard unionist claims as legitimate, I think they're inflamatory and I don't think in their hearts of hearts then can possibly feel that their presence there is justified.

Now...slaughter me with your rhetoric, but it's my honest to god feelings, no matter how unpopular it may be.

RMD

neaideabh wrote: »

I couldn't give a flying f()ck about a united Ireland. But it does bother me that our national rugby team cannot be identified by our national flag! I don't care what they say up north! If they want to represent themselves on a national level, let them set up their own team!

See the world rankings the other day and there is ireland in it with this meaningless green flag! and don't get me started on the "Ireland's Own" anthem!

It isn't our national team. It is a rugby team that represents the island of Ireland, 2 nations. It isn't a team representing the Republic and it isn't a team representing the North, it's a team representing both and which has always done so.

Hence the team is called Ireland and not the Republic of Ireland.

woodoo

[Jackass] wrote: »

I think people are very forgiving of British rule, this isn't very PC, but in fairness it is part of our island and we put up with centuries of terrible abuse for defend our land. Of course it is ours and the majority of people there who don't want to be part of the south aren't indiginous, they descend from plantations to dilute and control the Irish people. It's one thing that still grates with me, sentiment that "Ulster" is part of the UK...politically maybe, but for the union jack fliers, I don't understand how they feel that it is legitimately British rather than the flag flying being more about anti-Irish and inflamitory.

I know some people are fed up with the debate and will think my comments are "up da ra, fook da brits, sinn fein!! blah blah blah" ... but they're not. I think there is still a gaping wound in our historical treatment and the only reason the North was not handed back was ego of not admitting defeat and also to protect the plantation unionist population.

The threat to them is gone and I think it will always be a bitter reference to our treatment until the whole island is united again, and I don't regard unionist claims as legitimate, I think they're inflamatory and I don't think in their hearts of hearts then can possibly feel that their presence there is justified.

Now...slaughter me with your rhetoric, but it's my honest to god feelings, no matter how unpopular it may be.

That is exactly how i feel, the land was planted and the way the island was partitioned was pretty suspect too. This is why i will always think the island should be united. Day to day i rarely think about it and don't really expect anything to happen perhaps even in my life time. But if it came to a vote i would never vote against a United Ireland. I also don't accept NI unionists claiming they are in no way Irish. They don't like when i say that but i don't care. They can call themselves British all they want but they are Irish too.

ardmacha

It isn't our national team. It is a rugby team that represents the island of Ireland, 2 nations.

The people of Ireland are members of the Irish nation. I think you are confusing it with two jurisdictions.

Hence the team is called Ireland and not the Republic of Ireland.

Quite properly too, as the Republic of Ireland is a State, not a nation.

Iwasfrozen

ardmacha wrote: »

The people of Ireland are members of the Irish nation. I think you are confusing it with two jurisdictions.

I disagree, Ulster Scots are a separate culture to us and constitute their own nation.

Fr Tod Umptious

neaideabh wrote: »

I couldn't give a flying f()ck about a united Ireland. But it does bother me that our national rugby team cannot be identified by our national flag! I don't care what they say up north! If they want to represent themselves on a national level, let them set up their own team!

See the world rankings the other day and there is ireland in it with this meaningless green flag! and don't get me started on the "Ireland's Own" anthem!

Way off topic but I am glad you brought it up cos I fee the same way myself

They ditched the anthem and flag to appease the likes of this convicted pedophile David Tweed

I would love to see a 26 county ROI Rugby team

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I disagree, Ulster Scots are a separate culture to us and constitute their own nation.

The suggestion that ulster scots is anything approaching a culture is laughable. the idea that it constitutes a nation either displays a fundamental misunderstanding of what a nation is or is brilliantly scathing sarcasm

Shea O'Meara

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I disagree, Ulster Scots are a separate culture to us and constitute their own nation.

Maybe like the Colbert Nation, but not an actual Nation.

“Scots-Irish are not Irish. There’s no Irish blood in Scots-Irish people. They are Scots Presbyterians who were given land in Ireland. They took our land, and drove my people across the River Shannon, where we were forced to farm rocks by Oliver Cromwell, and I will see him rot in hell before you call Scots-Irish people Irish!”

Stephen Colbert

neaideabh

RMD wrote: »

It isn't our national team. It is a rugby team that represents the island of Ireland, 2 nations. It isn't a team representing the Republic and it isn't a team representing the North, it's a team representing both and which has always done so.

Hence the team is called Ireland and not the Republic of Ireland.

Fair enough, you continue to go to the Aviva or Twickenham and sing Ireland's Own to psyche up the team while waving your green flag with the irfu crest!
IT'S A DISGRACE!

Shea O'Meara

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Are you welcoming enough to find an around an £10bn in our annual budget to subsidise the 6 counties? Right now they run at a circa £10 bn tax deficit each year.


Source before anyone asks: http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/grassroots/2012/11/northern-ireland-decision-time-corporation-tax-power.html

I would like a united Ireland however not at that price and I think most would agree. "Romantic Ireland's dead and gone ..." .This generation has seen that practical realities are painfully inescapable.

We can easily afford, just pretend we had another FFail government.

steve9859

It will all come down to the economy in the end, no matter the emotional pull IMO. If it'll be a £10bn drag on the economy, forget it. If it's money taken out of people's pockets, it won't happen.

hyperborean

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Hmm, yes it was, it's part of Ireland and as such belongs to the Irish people.

Can you point me to the point in time were the island you call Ireland belonged to the people on it in its entirety?

If as I suspect you cant then your point is moot....

Ziphius

steve9859 wrote: »

It will all come down to the economy in the end, no matter the emotional pull IMO. If it'll be a £10bn drag on the economy, forget it. If it's money taken out of people's pockets, it won't happen.

Indeed. I was surprised the survey suggested that Irish people would be happy with tax increases in order to pay for a united Ireland.

If we take the conservative 5bn Euro estimate and divide by 5 million citizens (very roughly the Republic's current population) it would cost every €1,000 per year. And how many people pay income tax? 50%? That would mean an extra levy of €2,000 annual on middle class people. So about 25% increase in income tax on someone earning €35,000.

35k at 20% tax = 27k
less 2k = 25k

35k at 25% tax = 26.25k

Crooked Jack

hyperborean wrote: »

Can you point me to the point in time were the island you call Ireland belonged to the people on it in its entirety?

If as I suspect you cant then your point is moot....

Um always, if you're looking a specific date for the republic however id say Easter 1916

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

The suggestion that ulster scots is anything approaching a culture is laughable. the idea that it constitutes a nation either displays a fundamental misunderstanding of what a nation is or is brilliantly scathing sarcasm

I see and the ultimate authority to say what is and isn't a culture has been given to you by who? Ulster Scots are different from the Irish. They are a separate people with a separate culture concentrated in the North East of the island of Ireland (but not the nation of Ireland). This distinction is important because it lends validity to the notion of Northern Ireland as a distinct nation and makes Irish annexation much more difficult.

Shea O'Meara wrote:

Maybe like the Colbert Nation, but not an actual Nation.

“Scots-Irish are not Irish. There’s no Irish blood in Scots-Irish people. They are Scots Presbyterians who were given land in Ireland. They took our land, and drove my people across the River Shannon, where we were forced to farm rocks by Oliver Cromwell, and I will see him rot in hell before you call Scots-Irish people Irish!”

Stephen Colbert

All I can say is that guy obviously had a massive chip on his shoulder.

Crooked Jack

neaideabh wrote: »

Fair enough, you continue to go to the Aviva or Twickenham and sing Ireland's Own to psyche up the team while waving your green flag with the irfu crest!
IT'S A DISGRACE!

I dont like irelands call or the flag either but id take it any day over some partitionist free state team

Ziphius

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Um always, if you're looking a specific date for the republic however id say Easter 1916

The Irish Free State didn't exist until 1922.