Risk to life , including suicide?

MaxWig

If the Govt do pass this proposed legislation (X Case), does anyone see a scenario whereby a prospective father might be allowed to abdicate all rights and responsibilities, physical, emotional and financial to the new child, where that father is deemed to be suicidal as a result of the prospect of fatherhood. If not, why not?

I'm not looking for an argument, or any abusive posts.

I'm just curious about the idea.

eviltwin

Well a man had the right to walk away from a child if he wants to. No one will force him to be involved in his child's life. The only obligation I can see is financial and even that isn't iron clad, there are plenty of men who don't contribute to a child's upbringing and there doesn't seem to be much being done to reverse that.

im invisible

no

/thread

The Big Red Button

In all fairness, fathers can (and some do) already do this.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

Well a man had the right to walk away from a child if he wants to. No one will force him to be involved in his child's life. The only obligation I can see is financial and even that isn't iron clad, there are plenty of men who don't contribute to a child's upbringing and there doesn't seem to be much being done to reverse that.

A woman, after carrying the child and giving birth, has as much right to walk away from that child too.

ElleEm

Deleted User wrote: »

A woman, after carrying the child and giving birth, has as much right to walk away from that child too.

The mother is the legal guardian of the child though, whereas if the mother and father are unmarried at the time of birth, the father has no legal rights to the child.

seamus

The legislation brought forward will be the absolute minimum necessary. There will be no additions or enhancements to cope for scenarios other than the specific one in question.

The constitutional amendment recognises that the life of the mother and the unborn are inescapably entwined - that any harm to the mother will mean the end of the unborn child.

The same is not true of the father, so the constitution will not recognise any conflict between the father's right to life and the unborn's right to life. In the same way that a man threatening "I will kill myself if my girlfriend doesn't die", would not have his wishes entertained.

MaxWig

Hi Seamus,

I am not suggesting a scenario whereby the father suggests abortion, I am suggesting a scenario whereby the father wishes to have symbolic abortion - that is to say he is deemed suicidal by a panel of experts, and the prospect of fatherhood is deemed to be central to this. Would he/or would he not be entitled to similar protection? Not via termination of the pregnancy, but by a termination of his association to the child

xDramaxQueenx

MaxWig wrote: »

Hi Seamus,

I am not suggesting a scenario whereby the father suggests abortion, I am suggesting a scenario whereby the father wishes to have symbolic abortion - that is to say he is deemed suicidal by a panel of experts, and the prospect of fatherhood is deemed to be central to this. Would he/or would he not be entitled to similar protection? Not via termination of the pregnancy, but by a termination of his association to the child

One would wonder why he was having unprotected sex if he feared fatherhood so much.

That's kind of like "I want to drink and drive but will be suicidal if I lose my licence." Should the judge let him off?

seamus

I did suggest pretty much that on a different thread months back, but it's a much larger issue and there's no way that it would be included in any Irish legislation. To the best of my knowledge nothing like it exists anywhere in the western world, even where abortion is freely available.

It's a much more complicated problem because at the end of the day a child actually exists, which needs caring for.

There is also a level of sexism, where a woman who obtains an abortion is considered to be making the most difficult decision a woman can make, whereas a man who wants nothing to do with his child is just a deadbeat prick who needs to man up and take care of his child.

It's probably something that will start to creep into the US and Europe over the next fifty years, but given Ireland's historical resistance to abortion in general and treatment of fathers as second-class, there'll be nothing like it in Ireland in our lifetimes.

LegacyUser

MaxWig wrote: »

Hi Seamus,

I am not suggesting a scenario whereby the father suggests abortion, I am suggesting a scenario whereby the father wishes to have symbolic abortion - that is to say he is deemed suicidal by a panel of experts, and the prospect of fatherhood is deemed to be central to this. Would he/or would he not be entitled to similar protection? Not via termination of the pregnancy, but by a termination of his association to the child

As already mentioned above there is not much stopping him from doing that now. My best friends son has never meet his father. The guy freaked out and moved to the UK when informed of the pregnancy. My friend had enough on her plate without running after him so she's never looked for money off him or anything else. She tired sending him pictures etc after the child was born as she just felt it was right thing to do and he should at least be told of the gender if nothing else but as she only had his parents address and they refused to speak with her she doesn't know if he ever got her letters as she never heard anything back in 15 years.

While the majority of guys out there who become dads are great fathers and want time with their kids the reality is if a guy doesn't want anything to do with the child he can't be forced legally to spend time or even met the child if he doesn't want to.

The only obligation they can be forced into by courts is maintenance and I can't see any judge agreeing to let someone out of paying maintenance on suicide grounds. Maybe someone can claim they are suicidal due to being broke and not having the money to pay and it's caused depression etc but that's a totally different area.

While in a biological sense someone can be a father in a legal and social sense it's a much more grey area. If not married then he has little to no claim legally on the child and can in theory walk away from all but monetary obligations.

What makes someone a father outside of the biology? It's an easier question for mothers to answer as they have to endure major emotional impact and physical changes to their body but for a man if he is not involved with the pregnancy or doesn't know about it how big an impact does that have? Now I'm not dissing fathers here, I'd the best dad in the world and any of my male friends who've become fathers have as far as I can see adored ever second pregnancy and everything after but for the argument of this thread for someone to try and make the case for suicide they would need to prove how the pregnancy had impacted on them to cause suicidal thoughts. A guy cannot be forced to take part in the pregnancy - go to scans, help with morning sickness, be at the birth, cut the cord etc etc Friends who've become dads were involved in all of that and loved it. Then when baby arrives an unmarried guy can be given access but he can't be forced to come meet child, hold child etc etc

Now as said most guys I know want to be there for their kids and some have gotten depressed when they think they don't see their kids enough or are struggling with money to pay for everything for child but I can't see anyone being able to make the case for suicide for just being told of a pregnancy.

MaxWig

Its certainly incredibly complex.

"It's a much more complicated problem because at the end of the day a child actually exists, which needs caring for."

Of course this is the nub of the issue, but if a woman's choice is to be enshrined in legislation, it seems pertinent to ask about what is in question in the case of a suicide risk.


If the suicide risk is deemed to be due to the emotional and physical demands/challenges of the pregnancy, that is one issue.

If the suicide risk is deemed to be due to the prospect of motherhood, this would seem to be a different issue.
It seems to have wider implications.

LeeHoffmann

I also don´t think it´s going to happen any time soon. As to the question of should there be such a scenario...on the one hand, yes for the sake of equality (women can have abortion, men have no choice). If men could abdicate all responsibility and association in such a manner, that would have to be forever IMO - i.e. they couldn´t change their minds months/years later. Even if they wanted to play a part in the child´s life after that, they would have no rights whatsoever. I would also think this abdication should only take place after the baby is born and after the biological father has seen the baby - so that the man fully understands the reality of the situation before he makes such an important and permanent decision.

Now what about the child? Obviously he/she is likely to lose out in such a scenario (emotionally and financially). Who is going to pay for the child? The mother. If she can´t, then the state. This is probably the biggest reason why such a law will not be passed any time soon. The state can´t afford to pay for all these abdicated children.

strobe

Without any need to mention abortion or risks to life etc.. as it stands a woman can place her child up for adoption when it is born, relieving her of her rights over and responsibilities to that child. I struggle to see a reasonable justification for why women should be able to do this legally but men shouldn't.

LegacyUser

xDramaxQueenx wrote: »

One would wonder why he was having unprotected sex if he feared fatherhood so much.

That's kind of like "I want to drink and drive but will be suicidal if I lose my licence." Should the judge let him off?

Couldn't the same thing be said for mothers to be who say they are suicidal because of pregnancy? Aside from rape cases couldn't it be asked why they were having sex if they feared motherhood so much?
Should the judge permit permit an abortion to a woman who feels this way, but not allow a "symbolic" abortion to the man for feeling the same way about becoming a parent?

(Not sure how you feel about mothers having risk of suicide as a plausible reason for abortion btw, and I'm actually pro choice, but just pointing out in general that the statement you posted could be argued both ways)

Not too sure how I feel about it fully. Having a very close friend who's ex boyfriend screwed her over badly regarding maintenance, and seeing the child only when it suited him then disappearing again for months, I always strongly believed that a father should have to pay maintenance regardless of whether he wanted to or not, my reasoning being because he knew the risk of having a child was always there when he was having sex, and that's the risk he knowingly took when having sex so why should the child have to suffer because of his subsequent regret? Sort of "you made your bed now lie in it". However after reading boards for a long time, I have come across many posts pointing out the unfairness of the fact that women seem to make all the choices and that men should also have a say in whether they want to be a parent or not or pay maintenance. They have valid points imo. I'll admit I do have a bit of a double standard that I never really realised before. I don't think any less of a woman who gets an abortion, however I've always had a very dim view of men who opt out of being fathers and abandon their kid. I guess it's because at that stage the kid is a living person growing up without their dad.
But I suppose some of these fathers didn't get any say about being a parent during the pregnancy so shouldn't they have a say to opt out once the kid is born?
I'm very conflicted about it at this stage tbh.

MaxWig

cant log in wrote: »

As already mentioned above there is not much stopping him from doing that now. My best friends son has never meet his father. The guy freaked out and moved to the UK when informed of the pregnancy. My friend had enough on her plate without running after him so she's never looked for money off him or anything else. She tired sending him pictures etc after the child was born as she just felt it was right thing to do and he should at least be told of the gender if nothing else but as she only had his parents address and they refused to speak with her she doesn't know if he ever got her letters as she never heard anything back in 15 years.

While the majority of guys out there who become dads are great fathers and want time with their kids the reality is if a guy doesn't want anything to do with the child he can't be forced legally to spend time or even met the child if he doesn't want to.

The only obligation they can be forced into by courts is maintenance and I can't see any judge agreeing to let someone out of paying maintenance on suicide grounds. Maybe someone can claim they are suicidal due to being broke and not having the money to pay and it's caused depression etc but that's a totally different area.

While in a biological sense someone can be a father in a legal and social sense it's a much more grey area. If not married then he has little to no claim legally on the child and can in theory walk away from all but monetary obligations.

What makes someone a father outside of the biology? It's an easier question for mothers to answer as they have to endure major emotional impact and physical changes to their body but for a man if he is not involved with the pregnancy or doesn't know about it how big an impact does that have? Now I'm not dissing fathers here, I'd the best dad in the world and any of my male friends who've become fathers have as far as I can see adored ever second pregnancy and everything after but for the argument of this thread for someone to try and make the case for suicide they would need to prove how the pregnancy had impacted on them to cause suicidal thoughts. A guy cannot be forced to take part in the pregnancy - go to scans, help with morning sickness, be at the birth, cut the cord etc etc Friends who've become dads were involved in all of that and loved it. Then when baby arrives an unmarried guy can be given access but he can't be forced to come meet child, hold child etc etc

Now as said most guys I know want to be there for their kids and some have gotten depressed when they think they don't see their kids enough or are struggling with money to pay for everything for child but I can't see anyone being able to make the case for suicide for just being told of a pregnancy.

I understand most of what you say, and all I can say is that all of this also applies to Mothers. Noone can force anyone to do anything really. The whole 'most fathres are great' thing makes me very uncomfortable, and it probably should be excluded from debates in this area. The performance of parents of either sex is completely irrelevant here. Rather I just wanted people's thoughts on whether similar protections should be extended to prospective fathers as to prospective mothers.

LegacyUser

MaxWig wrote: »

I understand most of what you say, and all I can say is that all of this also applies to Mothers. Noone can force anyone to do anything really. The whole 'most fathres are great' thing makes me very uncomfortable, and it probably should be excluded from debates in this area. The performance of parents of either sex is completely irrelevant here. Rather I just wanted people's thoughts on whether similar protections should be extended to prospective fathers as to prospective mothers.

The only reason I mentioned that friends of mine are great fathers is because usually when one starts topics on how men can just walk away from a child people can get very offended as the majority of people don't walk away from their obligations. There are plenty of bad mothers out there as well but that wasn't the topic of this thread.

The fact is once a child is born both parents can walk away from obligations of parenting. As I said before walking away from the obligation of maintenance payments is different and there are kids out there living with fathers and mothers are paying maintenance to them. No one can be forced to be a parent if they don't want to. They may have alot of pressure from family/friends/society but from a purely legal stand point which is what we are talking about here the state cannot force a man to be a parent. They do currently force woman to give birth with our backwards abortion laws but once the child is born the mother can also walk away.

When talking about risk to life including suicide when it comes to pregnancy which is what the abortion discussion is about you can't really claim it's only fair to offer men the same option as your not comparing like with like. Someone said for the sake of equality it should be offered but the situation is not equal - the man does not have to go through pregnancy and childbirth. There is no risk to their body and they are not having any medical procedures forced upon them nor denied them. Claiming they are suicidal because a woman is pregnant with their child on what grounds? They can't be forced to attend any doctors appointments nor live with the woman and help her through the pregnancy if they don't want to, they don't have to be present for the birth or take part in anyway if that is what they wish so the claim for suicide would have to be simply on the grounds of being told about the pregnancy and possibility of becoming a father. So they go to a judge and say they are suicidal and the judge does what exactly? Tells them they don't have to take part in the pregnancy, something they already don't have to do. They are also not obligated to pay anything towards the cost of the pregnancy, they have no obligation what so ever until the child is born so I'm at a loss really as to what protections your talking about being extended to prospective fathers.

MaxWig

cant log in wrote: »

The only reason I mentioned that friends of mine are great fathers is because usually when one starts topics on how men can just walk away from a child people can get very offended as the majority of people don't walk away from their obligations. There are plenty of bad mothers out there as well but that wasn't the topic of this thread.

The fact is once a child is born both parents can walk away from obligations of parenting. As I said before walking away from the obligation of maintenance payments is different and there are kids out there living with fathers and mothers are paying maintenance to them. No one can be forced to be a parent if they don't want to. They may have alot of pressure from family/friends/society but from a purely legal stand point which is what we are talking about here the state cannot force a man to be a parent. They do currently force woman to give birth with our backwards abortion laws but once the child is born the mother can also walk away.

When talking about risk to life including suicide when it comes to pregnancy which is what the abortion discussion is about you can't really claim it's only fair to offer men the same option as your not comparing like with like. Someone said for the sake of equality it should be offered but the situation is not equal - the man does not have to go through pregnancy and childbirth. There is no risk to their body and they are not having any medical procedures forced upon them nor denied them. Claiming they are suicidal because a woman is pregnant with their child on what grounds? They can't be forced to attend any doctors appointments nor live with the woman and help her through the pregnancy if they don't want to, they don't have to be present for the birth or take part in anyway if that is what they wish so the claim for suicide would have to be simply on the grounds of being told about the pregnancy and possibility of becoming a father. So they go to a judge and say they are suicidal and the judge does what exactly? Tells them they don't have to take part in the pregnancy, something they already don't have to do. They are also not obligated to pay anything towards the cost of the pregnancy, they have no obligation what so ever until the child is born so I'm at a loss really as to what protections your talking about being extended to prospective fathers.

Are you suggesting the 'Abortion due to risk of suicide' debate hinges on suicide relating to the 9 month pregnancy period only, and not to the 50 or 60 years of parenthood after that?

If that is your point, a woman at risk of suicide due to the fears around prospective parenthood, would have to considered differently to a woman at risk of suicide due to the emotional strains of pregnancy (and prospective parenthood). It seems a strange distinction to even imagine, let alone to legislate for.