Introduction of two way system on Blackthorn Road, Sandyford Industrial Estate

Larbre34

wally79 wrote: »

I am no engineer but wouldnt it have been possible and sensible not to put a luas crossing on such a busy junction?

Possible, yes, sensible, no. Elevating Luas at that location would have been prohibitively costly and intrusive.

I'm not sure people really understand that the private car is number 5 on a priority list of 5 transport modes, it is overt national policy and it will continue to be disadvantaged in order to provide even incremental improvements to rail, bus, pedestrian or cyclist.

Zascar

It seems to have settled down now but it still takes ages to get out from the Arkel / Carmanhall Road at 5-6pm. There seems to be so much extra traffic coming down the Blackthorn Road. The road towards the Roundaboud looks like a nightmare too

GreeBo

Why on earth is the lane for turning left so short?
5 cars waiting to turn right and no one can move on the road, yet there is ample room to extend the turn left lane for another 50m.

Also will there be anyone moving on the cars/taxis etc that stop outside microsoft picking people up every evening at rush hour? Its no longer easy to just pass them now with oncoming traffic...

Just got an email from DLR traffic:
'Sandyford Business Park – Current Traffic Concerns
Dún Laoghaire – Rathdown County Council has recently completed a number of
improvements to the footpaths, road surfacing and accessibility measures for
pedestrians and cyclists, as well as upgrading a number of signalised traffic
junctions, into and within the Sandyford Business Park.
These modifications are based on the Mobility Policies and proposals outlined in
the Council’s Development Plan 2010 – 2016 and further detailed in the
Sandyford Urban Framework Plan 2011 – 2016. The over-arching objective is to
alter the industrial appearance of the Estate to a Business Park and in so doing,
introduce more sustainable transport and mobility measures. This in turn will
provide a more user friendly and safer environment for all.
Included in these changes was the reverting of the short section of Blackthorn
Road, between Burton Hall Road and Blackthorn Avenue, from one-way to twoway
traffic. This was introduced on Wednesday, 28th November 2012.
The rationale behind this change is to improve permeability for all road users
internally within Sandyford Business Park. Figures, to date, show that over 1,000
cars on a daily basis are turning up from Blackthorn Avenue into Blackthorn Road,
with the majority of cars accessing the businesses along the roadway section
before the junction with Burton Hall Road. The highest recorded figures, to date,
were on 11/12/2012 when 173 cars turned up Blackthorn Road between 8.00am
and 9.00am, and reached a daily total of 1,126 cars.
In addition the modifications to the road layout on Blackthorn Road, was as a
response to the many complaints received about traffic speeding and crisscrossing,
as drivers approach Blackthorn Avenue, which in turn made it very
dangerous for pedestrians to cross the roadway safely. Likewise, concerns were
expressed about the lack of pedestrian priority at Burton Hall Road and
Blackthorn Avenue junctions.
Like all works undertaken by the Traffic Section, post – construction monitoring is
on-going to measure the affects of the changes and to address any problems
arising from the modifications carried out.
In Sandyford this monitoring is by way of the four traffic control cameras, plus
on-site recording of journey times from various locations within the Estate as well
as comments received from the Sandyford Business District Association and
directly from local businesses and employees.
The feedback would seem to indicate that the new measures have improved
internal traffic permeability generally and is providing increased safety for
pedestrians, particularly the 6,000 approximate daily users of the Luas service.
However, while the new junction at Blackthorn Road / Blackthorn Avenue is
handling over 1,200 cars between 5.00pm and 6.00pm, with recorded figures of
925 cars approaching from Blackthorn Road and over 350 cars from Blackthorn
Avenue / Stillorgan Luas stop direction, strong concerns have been received in
relation to the traffic flows through the Estate during evening peak.
The worst affected area is the roadway and businesses off Burton Hall Road,
which in turn is having a knock-on affect on other areas, most notably between
5.00pm and 5.45pm. The problem is compounded by the high volume of traffic
accessing Sandyford Business Park via the Leopardstown Roundabout.
Recorded journey times show that trips from Arena Road to the Beacon junction
via Blackthorn Road, Benildus Avenue and Drummartin Link Road range between
8 to 10 minutes before 5.00pm to over 20 minutes during the slow evening peak
before returning to normal around 6.00pm.
During the same period, trips from the Bracken Road area to the Leopardstown
Roundabout increases from about 7 minutes to approximately 20 minutes. It
should be noted that these journey times take account of the normal nightly
queuing approaching the roundabout.
While the re-balancing of priority between traffic and other road users was always
likely to affect the flow of vehicular movement through the Estate, Traffic Section
fully understands the concerns expressed about the delays within the short
evening period, which should be placed in context against the benefits generated
by the overall proposals.
Traffic Section will continue to monitor the traffic and pedestrian movements over
the next few weeks and will continue to optimise traffic flows and movements on
the more congested roadways within the Estate and make adjustments, where
possible, to cater for the delays being experienced during the evening peak'



So looks like they are admitting that traffic times are now much longer in getting out of the business pk yet we have to look at the overall context...ie its better for pedestrians and cyclists so us drivers can go stuff themselves!

Irish and Proud

Larbre34 wrote: »

Possible, yes, sensible, no. Elevating Luas at that location would have been prohibitively costly and intrusive.

I'm not sure people really understand that the private car is number 5 on a priority list of 5 transport modes, it is overt national policy and it will continue to be disadvantaged in order to provide even incremental improvements to rail, bus, pedestrian or cyclist.

This old and tired "People are wedded to their cars" myth was demolished as far back as 2004 when the Luas became operational. So good and so reliable (well certainly the Green Line anyway) is the service that people switched (AFAIK, 100,000 of them) - just a couple of days ago, I came off the M50 and rather than drive into Rathgar, I just parked in Dundrum and rode the Luas (much prefer that) - excellent piece of infrastructure. If the authorities were more concerned with investing in public transport (and rolling our more Luas lines etc) rather than trying to force people from their cars, we'd have a much better modal balance.

It's high time that this country was run by intelligent people rather than the gombeens we have at the helm. About cycling/pedestrian infrastructure - all I would say is tear up that silly cycle manual and just copy the cycling standards used in Holland - the standards that seem to work!

monument

Irish and Proud wrote: »

This old and tired "People are wedded to their cars" myth ...

Dublin has around 100,000 people commuters traveling 4km and less, so, yes people are wedded to their cars.

It's clearly not a myth.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...was demolished as far back as 2004 when the Luas became operational. So good and so reliable (well certainly the Green Line anyway) is the service that people switched (AFAIK, 100,000 of them)

Luas.ie says it had around 80,000 passangers on the network a day. That's actually 80k trips -- given most people make two trips a day, that's closer to 40k users daily.

Nowhere near all of those transferred from cars -- some were new trips and many came from buses.

The roads around the Luas are now nearly as full with cars as they ever were.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

If the authorities we more concerned with investing in public transport (and rolling our more Luas lines etc) rather than trying to force people from their cars, we'd have a much better modal balance.

When you say authorities and mean the officials -- a hell of a load of those are very much so for investing in public transport.

But when we had money most of our politicians and much of the public were a lot more fixated on road building without any balance.

A mix of things needs to be done, including investing in and giving priority to walking between public transport and work places etc. This is exactly what the project subject of this thread.

spank_inferno

Do people think the terrible traffic situation will eventually drive business out of the estate?

Irish and Proud

monument wrote: »

Dublin has around 100,000 people commuters traveling 4km and less, so, yes people are wedded to their cars.

It's clearly not a myth.

Even if it's not, people have the right to choose their mode of transport - what the authorities have got to do is make available/viable, alternative modes - not force people from their cars. If people are so wedded to their cars, just look at the car parks at train stations - my main mode into work is the train. BTW, look at the increase in the numbers cycling...

monument wrote: »

Luas.ie says it had around 80,000 passangers on the network a day. That's actually 80k trips -- given most people make two trips a day, that's closer to 40k users daily.

Nowhere near all of those transferred from cars -- some were new trips and many came from buses.

The roads around the Luas are now nearly as full with cars as they ever were.

...but at least there's now an alternative - one I'm happy to use instead of driving all the way in to Rathgar (I sometimes have to go there) - that's with a 20 minute walk each way!

monument wrote: »

When you say authorities and mean the officials -- a hell of a load of those are very much so for investing in public transport.

All talk and little action - sure there were great rail plans in the 1960's for Dublin - I think there was an inner loop (underground) planned at one stage while there was an underground route proposed from Sandymount/Lansdowne to Broadstone (and on from there as a surface route) at another.

monument wrote: »

But when we had money most of our politicians and much of the public were a lot more fixated on road building without any balance.

...and of course, you know why that was - there was plenty in it for the farmers, developers and speculators who have far too much power in this country. The amount paid for land was disgraceful - how many Luas lines could have been built with the excessive money paid out. In short, I'm starting to think that the motorways were a cover for the massive compensation scam by the above mentioned parties - remember that FF tent - I'm sure there's an FG tent somewhere nowadays.

monument wrote: »

A mix of things needs to be done, including investing in and giving priority to walking between public transport and work places etc. This is exactly what the project subject of this thread.

I was a pedestrian today - I know one thing that would be a start if you want modal rebalancing - zebra crossings on our main streets - plenty of them like in France. The carpark at Millfield Shopping Centre in Balbriggan has quite a few zebra crossings with no physical speed measures etc - it works!!! For cycling, bring in some Dutch engineers and take road design completely out of the remit of the NTA.

As a motorist today, a pedestrian was crossing at an unofficial crossing point (there's actually no official one as it happened), so I just let her cross - as my driving instructor said: "Feet on Street, let them Complete" - it's no big deal. If there was more co-operation between people in general, then things would work better.

patrickbrophy18

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The short left lane! - You have the National Transport Authority (NTA) and their National Cycle Manual spec to thank for that - the NTA do not want left turn lanes any longer than 30m in Urban Areas. There's a much better way devised by the Dutch for handling motorists and cyclists at junctions - my feeling is that the NTA are just anti-car and are using cyclists as an excuse for their anti-car measures.

I couldn't have put it better myself. Improving cycling infrastructure should ideally be carried out without inconveniencing road users such as those on buses and cars. By doing so, they are creating a resentment and rivalry of sorts between motorists and cyclists. In other words, they are adding fuel to the "anti-car/anti-cyclist" fire. The work carried out has undoubtedly had a negative impact on the journey times of the 114 given that it shares the same road as other motorists such as cars and trucks.

I was on Blackthorn Road the other day off peak and noticed the tailbacks this abomination has caused as well as the pathetically small left turn lane. If this is off peak, I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for motorists going to places like Tallaght or Blanchardstown at rush hour. While the M50 has improved significantly over the years, this is being counter-acted by dis-improvement measures to roads which feed into and off it.

AltAccount

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I couldn't have put it better myself. Improving cycling infrastructure should ideally be carried out without inconveniencing road users such as those on buses and cars. By doing so, they are creating a resentment and rivalry of sorts between motorists and cyclists. In other words, they are adding fuel to the "anti-car/anti-cyclist" fire. The work carried out has undoubtedly had a negative impact on the journey times of the 114 given that it shares the same road as other motorists such as cars and trucks.

I'd think it's important to distinguish between a decision being made to deliberately inconvenience motorists in order to make cycling easier, versus an attempt to make cycling easier that's ineptly executed and has an impact that wasn't intended.

I'd like to think it's the latter, which do you think it is?

patrickbrophy18

AltAccount wrote: »

I'd think it's important to distinguish between a decision being made to deliberately inconvenience motorists in order to make cycling easier, versus an attempt to make cycling easier that's ineptly executed and has an impact that wasn't intended.

I'd like to think it's the latter, which do you think it is?

The latter I suppose!

Do you think the work carried out was unnecessary?

I'm all for making cycling more attractive as long as it doesn't negatively impact those who use other means of transport such as trucks, buses and cars.

I've highlighted a phrase in bold describing a logic which a lot of posters here favor. It is this logic I am completely against as it generally results in increased journey lengths for those traveling long distances to the area in question.

monument

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The latter I suppose!

Do you think the work carried out was unnecessary?

I'm all for making cycling more attractive as long as it doesn't negatively impact those who use other means of transport such as trucks, buses and cars.

I've highlighted a phrase in bold describing a logic which a lot of posters here favor. It is this logic I am completely against as it generally results in increased journey lengths for those traveling long distances to the area in question.

Give your anti-cycling ranting a break.

You've already been told it was not done just for cyclists.

patrickbrophy18

monument wrote: »

Give your anti-cycling ranting a break.

So, anti-regressive-engineering-works automatically makes me anti-cycling does it?

monument wrote: »

You've already been told it was not done just for cyclists.

It certainly wasn't done for the improvement of bus or truck movement if they are getting caught up in tailbacks. So who else besides cyclists?

monument

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

So, anti-regressive-engineering-works automatically makes me anti-cycling does it?

You're obsessed with cycling and very much so in a negative way.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It certainly wasn't done for the improvement of bus or truck movement if they are getting caught up in tailbacks. So who else besides cyclists?

The main reason was already explained in a post about a month ago and you seemed to accept this in you reply dated and time: 05/12/2012 22:56.

How have you forgotten so quickly?

AltAccount

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Do you think the work carried out was unnecessary?

I'm all for making cycling more attractive as long as it doesn't negatively impact those who use other means of transport such as trucks, buses and cars.

I do think some form of change was required, but I don't think this was the solution. I'd agree with you that I think all forms of transport should be optimised.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It certainly wasn't done for the improvement of bus or truck movement if they are getting caught up in tailbacks. So who else besides cyclists?

But if you've already agreed that it was inept design rather than deliberate "maliciousness", so I don't understand your point here.

OssianSmyth

New statement from the council

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/newsevents/latestnews/title,9064,en.html

18/01/2013

What has happened?
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has recently completed a number of improvements to the footpaths, road surfacing and accessibility measures for pedestrians and cyclists, as well as upgrading a number of signalised traffic junctions, into and within the Sandyford Business Park. Included in these changes was the reverting of the short section of Blackthorn Road, between Burton Hall Road and Blackthorn Avenue, from one-way to two-way traffic.

Why have these changes been made?
The modifications are based on the Mobility Policies outlined in the Council’s Development Plan 2010 – 2016 and in the Sandyford Urban Framework Plan 2011 – 2016. They aim to alter the industrial appearance of the Estate to a Business Parkand to provide a more user friendly and safe environment for pedestrians and cyclists while being mindful of improving permeability for vehicular users internally within the Business Park.
The change to the one-way system was a response to the many complaints received about traffic speeding and criss-crossing as drivers approach Blackthorn Avenue, which in turn made it very dangerous for pedestrians to cross the roadway safely and the lack of pedestrian priority at Burton Hall Road and Blackthorn Avenue junctions.
We must also stress that the one way system that was in place (prior to 28th November 2012) was provided as a traffic management measure to cater for the enormous traffic flows and volumes prior to the completion of the SEM/M50 but it was never intended that it would remain in place permanently.

What has been the result of these changes?
We acknowledge that the new two way system on Blackthorn Road is causing significant delays for drivers using the road in the evening peak travel time.

What are we doing now?
Following a comprehensive review, including engagement with the Sandyford Business District Association (SBEA), the Council is currently developing and testing a number of solutions to address the problem and reduce evening travel times. We will be in a position to present the preferred solution before the end of January.
Dún Laoghaire Rathdown County Council apologises for any inconvenience caused and would appreciate your patience in relation to this issue which we are working on resolving as soon as possible. A top priority for this Council is ensuring that Sandyford remains among Ireland's top business districts and employers and our work in Sandyford is at all times to support this goal.

_Kaiser_

They've started digging up this again today - looks like they're going to extend the left filter and remove the paving blocking the 2nd lane as you turn right at the lights.

Irish and Proud

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

They've started digging up this again today - looks like they're going to extend the left filter and remove the paving blocking the 2nd lane as you turn right at the lights.

That's it - the National Transport Authority needs to be banished from road design - this is the second mess-up in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area that AFAIK involved designs using their specs from the National Cycle Manual - the other mess-up is the Killiney Towers Roundabout which is also due a redesign - one that will be anti-cyclist instead of anti motor traffic - one extreme to another - typical. Bring in the Dutch engineers now!!!

patrickbrophy18

AltAccount wrote: »

I do think some form of change was required, but I don't think this was the solution. I'd agree with you that I think all forms of transport should be optimised.

You've pretty much taken the words right out of my mouth with the use of the word "optimised". This very word is something that I have tried to stress in this thread and in others.

AltAccount wrote: »

But if you've already agreed that it was inept design rather than deliberate "maliciousness", so I don't understand your point here.

I apologize if my comment came across as malicious.

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

and remove the paving blocking the 2nd lane as you turn right at the lights.

Seriously what were they thinking paving over perfectly good lane on a already seriously congested turn.

AltAccount

Well, it looks like the same chimps have made the exact same mistake on Wyatville Road.

They've taken the left turn lane here: http://goo.gl/maps/Rse4T and drastically shortened it. They seem to be planting the "reclaimed" bit with grass, so it's not like they've any intention of using the space for bikes, pedestrians or any other form of transport.

All they've done is ensure that, if there are more than two or three cars waiting to turn left, one of them will have their arse hanging out into the straight ahead lane blocking the progress of other drivers.


I've no idea how much it costs to make a change like this - would it be 5 or 6 figures? - and based on the Sandyford experience it's liable to be undone once they realise how pointless it is, at a similar cost.

WTF is going on in DLRCoCo's Roads dept????

RosieJoe

AltAccount wrote: »

Well, it looks like the same chimps have made the exact same mistake on Wyatville Road.

They've taken the left turn lane here: http://goo.gl/maps/Rse4T and drastically shortened it. They seem to be planting the "reclaimed" bit with grass, so it's not like they've any intention of using the space for bikes, pedestrians or any other form of transport.

All they've done is ensure that, if there are more than two or three cars waiting to turn left, one of them will have their arse hanging out into the straight ahead lane blocking the progress of other drivers.


I've no idea how much it costs to make a change like this - would it be 5 or 6 figures? - and based on the Sandyford experience it's liable to be undone once they realise how pointless it is, at a similar cost.

WTF is going on in DLRCoCo's Roads dept????

Saw that this evening and couldn't help but laugh! There's queues every morning for turning left and now they've made matters far worse

homer911

It's nice to be reassured that all our Housing Charges will be well spent :rolleyes:

Larbre34

homer911 wrote: »

It's nice to be reassured that all our Housing Charges will be well spent :rolleyes:

Don't be under any illusions lads, if everyone paid the household charge it would bring in €180 million, the budget for all Local Government is about €6 billion, and that doesnt include capital grants from bodies including the NTA for the likes of this work.

Put another way, your household charge just about covers the Bic biros.........

AltAccount

Larbre34 wrote: »

Don't be under any illusions lads, if everyone paid the household charge it would bring in €180 million, the budget for all Local Government is about €6 billion, and that doesnt include capital grants from bodies including the NTA for the likes of this work.

Put another way, your household charge just about covers the Bic biros.........

And how many of us could be let off paying the household charge if the local government money wasn't squandered so predictably and thoroughly through such ridiculous "improvement schemes"?

Rory1

DLRCC reply is not good enough. It is absolutely incredible that this change was allowed, they are absolute idiots.

Left Lane
Where do you start with outlining what so wrong with this. There is loads of ground on left hand side to make this wider. It is impossible for any bus or long vehicle to turn left without having to cross over the line. This is surely 101 engineering, a child could tell this does not work.

Change to two way.
There is no demand or need for change. They talk about dangers for pedestrians of one way but there are ways of fixing that. Put in a speed camera being the easiest, reduce speed limit to 30 km/hour. Simple and cheaper. Dont f***king mess up my commute.

Rory1

AltAccount wrote: »

And how many of us could be let off paying the household charge if the local government money wasn't squandered so predictably and thoroughly through such ridiculous "improvement schemes"?

Agree, how can they look for our money and then do stupid things like this.

I dont know how many millions they spend doing this. If they dont reverse it, they will loose rates, why would any company locate in an estate that is administered by load of idiots. What other CRAZY idea will the morons come up with.

monument

The changes overall are in line with local and national policy, and, most importantly, in line with an agreed strategy for the estate.

Rory1

monument wrote: »

The changes overall are in line with local and national policy, and, most importantly, in line with an agreed strategy for the estate.

That does not make it sensible. Is it policy to take a system that is working perfectly well and change it so that journey times increase by 20 minutes?

If so, policy needs to change. What annoys me most is that DLRCC are saying we changed it because it's policy, does not matter that it does not work well and is now very dangerous. It is the sort of daft thought process that has got this country in the mess that we are in.

patrickbrophy18

I agree completely with Rory1. Any money spent on "improvement:rolleyes:" works which result in delays is a huge waste. The National Cycle Manual might work in Sim City where large vehicles magically negotiate tight corners and the like. Almost all diagrams of urban road systems in the National Cycle Manual seem to recommend 90 degree turns. This is all very well if the only motorists on the road are cars which aren't very long at all. Conversely, trucks and buses can be up to 17 meters in length where these 90 degree turns will become problematic. Essentially, the front of such vehicles will have to swing to the other side of the road to avoid mounting the kerb with their hind axle. This is dangerous because the front of these vehicles will be in the path of oncoming traffic while making the turn.

While I do see some posters here trying to dissociate household tax and motor tax with infrastructural works, the fact still remains that general tax is used to fund such works. Unfortunately, the local administrative authority are wasting tax payers money on conforming to policies that seem to deliberately inconvenience motorists (and not just those who own cars). Going by many other posts in this thread, it seems to have had a negative impact on those using the 114 bus. As a person who makes their way around mainly by foot, I didn't see anything wrong with the way the junction was. For anyone who did, I would like to know their reasoning.