Why is it considered appropriate for young children to go to 'confession'?

Kiwi in IE

I have become aware recently that when children do the 'Communion' ritual at around eight years of age, they are required to go to confession.

I don't find this appropriate. What imaginary 'sins' is an eight year old likely to be confessing?

In fact I believe that young children being labelled as 'sinners' when clearly they are not, and threatening them with the concept of 'hell' qualifies as psychological abuse.

doctoremma

For my first confession, I told the priest I'd been mean to my brother and I didn't tidy my room when my Mum asked. As my mother questioned me about these very same things in the car on the way home, I can only assume that the sanctity (what's the word?) of confession doesn't apply to young people!

Kiwi in IE

I think it is highly concerning that is is widely accepted practice within the public education system. Installing fear into young children and attacking their fragile self esteem by labelling them as sinners is abusive.

doctoremma

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I think it is highly concerning that is is widely accepted practice within the public education system. Installing fear into young children and attacking their fragile self esteem by labelling them as sinners is abusive.

Well, I'm not usually one to defend the Catholic Church but I didn't feel fearful about it, I wasn't labelled a 'sinner' and my self-esteem remained intact.

It was a ritual alright, but not more distressing than any of the others. And possibly less worrisome than eating Jesus.

In principle, I agree with you and it's plausible that my experiences were less intense than for others (as the whole shebang was openly known to me as a means to get me into a good school).

Kiwi in IE

Don't get me started on 'eating Jesus'.

I have a colleague whose eight year old daughter was terrified of 'impure thoughts' and hell, after having it drummed into her by the teacher during communion year. I think that is abuse.

My son will not be partaking of those rituals, however because of where we live a Catholic school is our only choice, so it will be unavoidable that he will be subjected to Catholic indoctrination.

theteal

I remember the whole first confession thing. I never went again. I was freaked out by it. Even at that age I knew it was weird and not for me.

3ndahalfof6

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have become aware recently that when children do the 'Communion' ritual at around eight years of age, they are required to go to confession.

I don't find this appropriate. What imaginary 'sins' is an eight year old likely to be confessing?

In fact I believe that young children being labelled as 'sinners' when clearly they are not, and threatening them with the concept of 'hell' qualifies as psychological abuse.

Interesting that you have only become aware of this recently?

it might be possible it would give them the forma to vent what they think might be sins, what is a sin, is it what you are told a sin is or is it a feeling you have done something wrong,

while it might not be a sin, at the age of 8 you might think it is, probably better to try to teach them right from wrong,

you did not sin, you are just learning how to melt in (join society), at that age their family is the rule they follow,

some might turn out to be killers, some might have the possibility to be killers, but as they grow older their skills are tapped into doing good rather than bad,(what is bad and how will it put you on the fringes of society)

they are the human replica of a hard drive, they are given loads of information, how do they process it, and what back up do they have to help them to understand it,

communion is a part of inputting data, if you do not do this it will not turn out well, if you do this you will be loved,

but who shows them (or explains to them) the reward to be good is better,

while you yourself are still learning right from wrong (while it might be on a micro level),

They don't do the ritual, they are told to do it.

Benny_Cake

Mod note: Right, I've had to delete a few trollish responses here. Lets keep this about confession specifically and keep the discussion mature. Oh, and we have a megathread for anyone wanting to start a Catholics v Protestant / Evangelical dispute.

Kiwi in IE

I have become aware of it only recently as I am not Catholic or Irish. I am from a secular country. I was aware that Catholics did these rituals, but had never put much thought into enquiring what they entailed as it has never been relevant to me. However since moving here and realising my son is going to have to attend a Catholic school, it has suddenly become very relevant.

Most intelligent people are quite capable of teaching their children right from wrong without threatening them with hell and an angry god in the sky. I do not doubt my ability to do that. Needing religion to teach morals only applies to those who have an inability to explain the real reasons for desirable and undesirable behaviours.

Interestingly up until I relocated here with my Irish partner I was never anti religion. There is a very tolerant live and let live attitude in secular societies generally. Since coming to Ireland, a country that I really love with the exception of the religion hang up, I have begun to feel very anti religion. Catholicism in particular, since that is the one that is forced down our throats and imposes on our personal freedoms within the education, health and legal systems. I had a broad overview of Catholicism and every other religion, but the more I find out about Catholicism the more I despise it.

Benny_Cake

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have become aware of it only recently as I am not Catholic or Irish. I am from a secular country. I was aware that Catholics did these rituals, but had never put much thought into enquiring what they entailed as it has never been relevant to me. However since moving here and realising my son is going to have to attend a Catholic school, it has suddenly become very relevant.

Most intelligent people are quite capable of teaching their children right from wrong without threatening them with hell and an angry imaginary friend in the sky. I do not doubt my ability to do that. Needing religion to teach morals only applies to those who have an inability to explain the real reasons for desirable and undesirable behaviours.

Interestingly up until I relocated here with my Irish partner I was never anti religion. There is a very tolerant live and let live attitude in secular societies generally. Since coming to Ireland, a country that I really love with the exception of the religion hang up, I have begun to feel very anti religion. Catholicism in particular, since that is the one that is forced down our throats and imposes on our personal freedoms within the education, health and legal systems. I had a broad overview of Catholicism and every other religion, but the more I find out about Catholicism the more I despise it.

Mod note: Since you are new to this forum, please take the time to read the charter. Phrases such as "imaginary friend in the sky" will not be tolerated here. If you have any questions, send me a PM.

Benny_Cake

You are aware, that even if your child is attending a denominational school, they can be taken out of religion class and confession / first Communion are not compulsory? Also we have an increasing number of non-denominational schools around the country, although not as many as are needed the numbers are growing all the time.

Kiwi in IE

Benny_Cake wrote: »

You are aware, that even if your child is attending a denominational school, they can be taken out of religion class and confession / first Communion are not compulsory? Also we have an increasing number of non-denominational schools around the country, although not as many as are needed the numbers are growing all the time.

Yes I am aware that is the case. We live in a Town that has numerous Catholic primary schools and one Protestant. The closest Educate Together is an hour round trip and even if we are prepared to commit to that it is well booked up for my son's year.

Sitting him out of the Catholic rituals is exactly what we will be having to do, however as I understand it 10% of the school week is spent on religion. I am not happy with removing him from his class for that amount of time, and I don't see that having him sat in a corner reading a book or colouring is very productive. I would much prefer that 10% were spent on Math, Science, English or Irish.

Kiwi in IE

We are tax paying parents who are contributing toward the public education system, and I feel it is very unfair that we have no choice but to put up with having beliefs we do not hold forced upon our child. I find the idea of young children being indoctrinated with thoughts of sin and hell horrifying.

georgieporgy

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

We are tax paying parents who are contributing toward the public education system, and I feel it is very unfair that we have no choice but to put up with having beliefs we do not hold forced upon our child. I find the idea of young children being indoctrinated with thoughts of sin and hell horrifying.

Have you considered going back to your home country where you would be happier? Or perhaps move to a non catholic country like Saudi Arabia where they don't have catholic rituals. I suppose they too are likely to have rituals you think they should change.

I'd like to read your posts on boards.saudi

Benny_Cake

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

We are tax paying parents who are contributing toward the public education system, and I feel it is very unfair that we have no choice but to put up with having beliefs we do not hold forced upon our child. I find the idea of young children being indoctrinated with thoughts of sin and hell horrifying.

Well all pay taxes for things that we might not agree with. In fairness, if your child isn't attending religion classes in school I don't see how this is an issue for you. Although, when I was in school there was certainly no hell talk in religion class. So you do have a choice, it's just that you feel it's less than satisfactory. Thankfully, this is something where change is ongoing and parents will have much greater choice in the future.

Doc Farrell

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

We are tax paying parents who are contributing toward the public education system, and I feel it is very unfair that we have no choice but to put up with having beliefs we do not hold forced upon our child. I find the idea of young children being indoctrinated with thoughts of sin and hell horrifying.

I don't think hellfire is taught to 7 year olds. Here's a link to what the sacrament is about for adults.
http://www.americancatholic.org/features/special/default.aspx?id=32

Although the previous post about Saudi Arabia is a little direct he does have a point. It would be naive of me to move to a Baptist or Muslim area and then complain that there are too many of them around.

I've looked around at a few PDFs about teaching what confession is to kids and I can't find the subject of hell, so it might be off the table, as it were.

If you want to teach your child extra maths go ahead, all 7 year olds love maths!

Kiwi in IE

Several people have compared the religious rituals carried out in schools here to the religious rituals in Muslim countries. A very appropriate and insightful comparison.

Fanny Cradock

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Several people have compared the religious rituals carried out in schools here to the religious rituals in Muslim countries. A very appropriate and insightful comparison.

I suspect you would be much happier off in the A&A forum. It's the bastion of rationality. Your style would go down well there.

Anyway, can you tell me in what way religious rituals (and I suppose you mean Roman Catholic rituals) are similar to religious rituals conducted in Muslim countries? And if this is the case when then is your point?

Doc Farrell

Although some suburbs might seem like Syria and Afghanistan sometimes, it's just as valuable to suggest that the opposite is true, that is, not particuarly insightful at all.

philologos

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have become aware recently that when children do the 'Communion' ritual at around eight years of age, they are required to go to confession.

I don't find this appropriate. What imaginary 'sins' is an eight year old likely to be confessing?

In fact I believe that young children being labelled as 'sinners' when clearly they are not, and threatening them with the concept of 'hell' qualifies as psychological abuse.

Sin = wrongdoing.

Although I don't hold to the RCC rite of confession, I think it's a little bit unbelievable to say that children as old as 8 cannot have ever sinned.

Also, Christians don't believe that sin is something to be burdened by, but rather that Jesus died in our place on the cross so that we can be forgiven. We have a merciful God who stood in our place for us. The idea that Christians are chronically depressed because they are sinners is wrong! Rather we are joyful that Jesus has paid the price and we have been born again by His resurrection:

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
(Romans 5:6-11 ESV)

Gospel = good news. Jesus has saved us from condemnation and hell and it is completely a free gift.

That's not abusive at all.

SuperInfinity

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Several people have compared the religious rituals carried out in schools here to the religious rituals in Muslim countries. A very appropriate and insightful comparison.

A very rubbish and ridiculous, crazy comparison more like. Cop yourself on.

I'm an atheist, at least at the current time, and came here a bit by accident from the front page links. But it saddens me to see people like you besmirching the name of the catholic church by fantasy, delusional ideas of persecution.

You know who people like you remind me of? Ruhama. They make up bizarre stories as they go along and instead of trying to give an honest, accurate picture, they try to twist it whatever way they can to manipulate and deceive. My aunt was a nun and she was always very honest and very kind and I never had any bad experiences with religion ever.

Not saying that there's no possibilities for abuse, obviously there is and there has been. But try looking for the proverbial devil elsewhere, since I'm sure far more things are harming your kids if you have any.

Kiwi in IE

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I suspect you would be much happier off in the A&A forum. It's the bastion of rationality. Your style would go down well there.

Anyway, can you tell me in what way religious rituals (and I suppose you mean Roman Catholic rituals) are similar to religious rituals conducted in Muslim countries? And if this is the case when then is your point?

The fact they are conducted within the education system is where the comparison lies. If I moved to Saudi Arabia (and I wouldn't for this reason), I would expect my personal freedoms within law, education and healthcare to be seriously restricted by religious ideas. I did not expect it from Ireland, a First World country in the 21st century. I am not giving out about Ireland, only the ridiculous hold the RCC seems to have over the place. And don't be led to believe you practising lot are the majority.

philologos

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The fact they are conducted within the education system is where the comparison lies. If I moved to Saudi Arabia (and I wouldn't for this reason), I would expect my personal freedoms within law, education and healthcare to be seriously restricted by religious ideas. I did not expect it from Ireland, a First World country in the 21st century. I am not giving out about Ireland, only the ridiculous hold the RCC seems to have over the place. And don't be led to believe you practising lot are the majority.

Fanny Craddock is not a Roman Catholic. I am not a Roman Catholic. Many on this forum aren't.

Those which are mightn't agree with the RCC having a large share in schooling.

Manach

Oh well that's what is having a Human rights act that preserves the families religious ethos expression is about.

Kiwi in IE

philologos wrote: »

Fanny Craddock is not a Roman Catholic. I am not a Roman Catholic. Many on this forum aren't.

Those which are mightn't agree with the RCC having a large share in schooling.

Well if even the religious don't agree why is it allowed to continue?

philologos

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Well if even the religious don't agree why is it allowed to continue?

I'm not opposed to having faith schools. What I would be opposed to would be dominance and a lack of choice in education.

Fanny Cradock

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The fact they are conducted within the education system is where the comparison lies.

That's not an answer to my question. What rituals are similar between Roman Catholic schools in Ireland and religious rituals in Muslim countries?

That faith schools exist shouldn't come as a surprise, especially considering New Zealand has its share of them.

Anyway, as you have probably deduced from some of the posts on this thread, I would think that at least some of the Christian here would be quite happy to see more non-denominational schools established. Does that come as a surprise to you?

Zombrex

philologos wrote: »

Gospel = good news. Jesus has saved us from condemnation and hell and it is completely a free gift.

That's not abusive at all.

It is not a free gift at all, you have to actively "accept" salvation, with a large range of interpretations as to what that means and how it is achieved (and and even wider range of ways you can fail to achieve it).

The idea that if you don't you will face eternal suffering in a lake of fire because you are wicked is hardly a positive thing to be teaching an impressionable child, who is more likely to simply fixate on the eternal suffering in a lack of fire, rather than the various convoluted ways to demonstrate to God that you actually have accepted Jesus Christ as your saviour.

For a start how does a child of 8 even accept Jesus, what ever interpretation of what that actually means you us. How does he even understand what that means. And more importantly, since he probably realises he doesn't, he will simply believe he is destined for hell.

Fanny Cradock

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Well if even the religious don't agree why is it allowed to continue?

Because the Roman Catholic Church was for years tasked by the State with the role of educators. You can't simply change the system overnight. This is partly because of the complexity involved in the orderly divestment of educational responsibilities and property from the Church. It's also partly because there is neither the money to do this nor anything to take their place. At least not yet.

Kiwi in IE

SuperInfinity wrote: »

A very rubbish and ridiculous, crazy comparison more like. Cop yourself on.

I'm an atheist, at least at the current time, and came here a bit by accident from the front page links. But it saddens me to see people like you besmirching the name of the catholic church by fantasy, delusional ideas of persecution.

You know who people like you remind me of? Ruhama. They make up bizarre stories as they go along and instead of trying to give an honest, accurate picture, they try to twist it whatever way they can to manipulate and deceive. My aunt was a nun and she was always very honest and very kind and I never had any bad experiences with religion ever.

Not saying that there's no possibilities for abuse, obviously there is and there has been. But try looking for the proverbial devil elsewhere, since I'm sure far more things are harming your kids if you have any.

Read the whole forum before you get your knickers in a twist. I was complaining of the RCC's dominance in schools, and the fact I do not think that the education system is an appropriate place for religious rituals. I was told by others that had I moved to Saudi Arabia instead of Ireland, I couldn't expect that the Muslim religion would not be imposed on me. That is my point. Ireland is a Western country in the 21st century, the power the RCC is given should not be comparible to the power religion has in Middle Eastern and third world countries. It hardly would have had effect if I was told to move to Canada, France or Australia to see how I like their state sponsored religious rituals.

Doc Farrell

It is changing kiwi, even some who run Catholic schools want some changes. The reason there are so many Catholic schools is because Ireland was so poor for so long that only Catholic orders would go near them (with the admirable exception of a few other denominations here and there).
Irish Caholics until the 20th century had little say and fewer shoes. A great Honour for a working class family would be to have a son become a priest. This led to two roads, one heroic and evangelical and the other to clericalism and all the sins that we've heard about over the last 20 years.
There are many changes happening and many adult Catholics are finding themselves having to grow up about their faith, which can initially be a painful and reactionary process.