Why is it considered appropriate for young children to go to 'confession'?

Kiwi in IE

I have become aware recently that when children do the 'Communion' ritual at around eight years of age, they are required to go to confession.

I don't find this appropriate. What imaginary 'sins' is an eight year old likely to be confessing?

In fact I believe that young children being labelled as 'sinners' when clearly they are not, and threatening them with the concept of 'hell' qualifies as psychological abuse.

doctoremma

For my first confession, I told the priest I'd been mean to my brother and I didn't tidy my room when my Mum asked. As my mother questioned me about these very same things in the car on the way home, I can only assume that the sanctity (what's the word?) of confession doesn't apply to young people!

Kiwi in IE

I think it is highly concerning that is is widely accepted practice within the public education system. Installing fear into young children and attacking their fragile self esteem by labelling them as sinners is abusive.

doctoremma

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I think it is highly concerning that is is widely accepted practice within the public education system. Installing fear into young children and attacking their fragile self esteem by labelling them as sinners is abusive.

Well, I'm not usually one to defend the Catholic Church but I didn't feel fearful about it, I wasn't labelled a 'sinner' and my self-esteem remained intact.

It was a ritual alright, but not more distressing than any of the others. And possibly less worrisome than eating Jesus.

In principle, I agree with you and it's plausible that my experiences were less intense than for others (as the whole shebang was openly known to me as a means to get me into a good school).

Kiwi in IE

Don't get me started on 'eating Jesus'.

I have a colleague whose eight year old daughter was terrified of 'impure thoughts' and hell, after having it drummed into her by the teacher during communion year. I think that is abuse.

My son will not be partaking of those rituals, however because of where we live a Catholic school is our only choice, so it will be unavoidable that he will be subjected to Catholic indoctrination.

theteal

I remember the whole first confession thing. I never went again. I was freaked out by it. Even at that age I knew it was weird and not for me.

3ndahalfof6

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have become aware recently that when children do the 'Communion' ritual at around eight years of age, they are required to go to confession.

I don't find this appropriate. What imaginary 'sins' is an eight year old likely to be confessing?

In fact I believe that young children being labelled as 'sinners' when clearly they are not, and threatening them with the concept of 'hell' qualifies as psychological abuse.

Interesting that you have only become aware of this recently?

it might be possible it would give them the forma to vent what they think might be sins, what is a sin, is it what you are told a sin is or is it a feeling you have done something wrong,

while it might not be a sin, at the age of 8 you might think it is, probably better to try to teach them right from wrong,

you did not sin, you are just learning how to melt in (join society), at that age their family is the rule they follow,

some might turn out to be killers, some might have the possibility to be killers, but as they grow older their skills are tapped into doing good rather than bad,(what is bad and how will it put you on the fringes of society)

they are the human replica of a hard drive, they are given loads of information, how do they process it, and what back up do they have to help them to understand it,

communion is a part of inputting data, if you do not do this it will not turn out well, if you do this you will be loved,

but who shows them (or explains to them) the reward to be good is better,

while you yourself are still learning right from wrong (while it might be on a micro level),

They don't do the ritual, they are told to do it.

Benny_Cake

Mod note: Right, I've had to delete a few trollish responses here. Lets keep this about confession specifically and keep the discussion mature. Oh, and we have a megathread for anyone wanting to start a Catholics v Protestant / Evangelical dispute.

Kiwi in IE

I have become aware of it only recently as I am not Catholic or Irish. I am from a secular country. I was aware that Catholics did these rituals, but had never put much thought into enquiring what they entailed as it has never been relevant to me. However since moving here and realising my son is going to have to attend a Catholic school, it has suddenly become very relevant.

Most intelligent people are quite capable of teaching their children right from wrong without threatening them with hell and an angry god in the sky. I do not doubt my ability to do that. Needing religion to teach morals only applies to those who have an inability to explain the real reasons for desirable and undesirable behaviours.

Interestingly up until I relocated here with my Irish partner I was never anti religion. There is a very tolerant live and let live attitude in secular societies generally. Since coming to Ireland, a country that I really love with the exception of the religion hang up, I have begun to feel very anti religion. Catholicism in particular, since that is the one that is forced down our throats and imposes on our personal freedoms within the education, health and legal systems. I had a broad overview of Catholicism and every other religion, but the more I find out about Catholicism the more I despise it.

Benny_Cake

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have become aware of it only recently as I am not Catholic or Irish. I am from a secular country. I was aware that Catholics did these rituals, but had never put much thought into enquiring what they entailed as it has never been relevant to me. However since moving here and realising my son is going to have to attend a Catholic school, it has suddenly become very relevant.

Most intelligent people are quite capable of teaching their children right from wrong without threatening them with hell and an angry imaginary friend in the sky. I do not doubt my ability to do that. Needing religion to teach morals only applies to those who have an inability to explain the real reasons for desirable and undesirable behaviours.

Interestingly up until I relocated here with my Irish partner I was never anti religion. There is a very tolerant live and let live attitude in secular societies generally. Since coming to Ireland, a country that I really love with the exception of the religion hang up, I have begun to feel very anti religion. Catholicism in particular, since that is the one that is forced down our throats and imposes on our personal freedoms within the education, health and legal systems. I had a broad overview of Catholicism and every other religion, but the more I find out about Catholicism the more I despise it.

Mod note: Since you are new to this forum, please take the time to read the charter. Phrases such as "imaginary friend in the sky" will not be tolerated here. If you have any questions, send me a PM.

Benny_Cake

You are aware, that even if your child is attending a denominational school, they can be taken out of religion class and confession / first Communion are not compulsory? Also we have an increasing number of non-denominational schools around the country, although not as many as are needed the numbers are growing all the time.

Kiwi in IE

Benny_Cake wrote: »

You are aware, that even if your child is attending a denominational school, they can be taken out of religion class and confession / first Communion are not compulsory? Also we have an increasing number of non-denominational schools around the country, although not as many as are needed the numbers are growing all the time.

Yes I am aware that is the case. We live in a Town that has numerous Catholic primary schools and one Protestant. The closest Educate Together is an hour round trip and even if we are prepared to commit to that it is well booked up for my son's year.

Sitting him out of the Catholic rituals is exactly what we will be having to do, however as I understand it 10% of the school week is spent on religion. I am not happy with removing him from his class for that amount of time, and I don't see that having him sat in a corner reading a book or colouring is very productive. I would much prefer that 10% were spent on Math, Science, English or Irish.

Kiwi in IE

We are tax paying parents who are contributing toward the public education system, and I feel it is very unfair that we have no choice but to put up with having beliefs we do not hold forced upon our child. I find the idea of young children being indoctrinated with thoughts of sin and hell horrifying.

georgieporgy

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

We are tax paying parents who are contributing toward the public education system, and I feel it is very unfair that we have no choice but to put up with having beliefs we do not hold forced upon our child. I find the idea of young children being indoctrinated with thoughts of sin and hell horrifying.

Have you considered going back to your home country where you would be happier? Or perhaps move to a non catholic country like Saudi Arabia where they don't have catholic rituals. I suppose they too are likely to have rituals you think they should change.

I'd like to read your posts on boards.saudi

Benny_Cake

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

We are tax paying parents who are contributing toward the public education system, and I feel it is very unfair that we have no choice but to put up with having beliefs we do not hold forced upon our child. I find the idea of young children being indoctrinated with thoughts of sin and hell horrifying.

Well all pay taxes for things that we might not agree with. In fairness, if your child isn't attending religion classes in school I don't see how this is an issue for you. Although, when I was in school there was certainly no hell talk in religion class. So you do have a choice, it's just that you feel it's less than satisfactory. Thankfully, this is something where change is ongoing and parents will have much greater choice in the future.

Doc Farrell

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

We are tax paying parents who are contributing toward the public education system, and I feel it is very unfair that we have no choice but to put up with having beliefs we do not hold forced upon our child. I find the idea of young children being indoctrinated with thoughts of sin and hell horrifying.

I don't think hellfire is taught to 7 year olds. Here's a link to what the sacrament is about for adults.
http://www.americancatholic.org/features/special/default.aspx?id=32

Although the previous post about Saudi Arabia is a little direct he does have a point. It would be naive of me to move to a Baptist or Muslim area and then complain that there are too many of them around.

I've looked around at a few PDFs about teaching what confession is to kids and I can't find the subject of hell, so it might be off the table, as it were.

If you want to teach your child extra maths go ahead, all 7 year olds love maths!

Kiwi in IE

Several people have compared the religious rituals carried out in schools here to the religious rituals in Muslim countries. A very appropriate and insightful comparison.

Fanny Cradock

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Several people have compared the religious rituals carried out in schools here to the religious rituals in Muslim countries. A very appropriate and insightful comparison.

I suspect you would be much happier off in the A&A forum. It's the bastion of rationality. Your style would go down well there.

Anyway, can you tell me in what way religious rituals (and I suppose you mean Roman Catholic rituals) are similar to religious rituals conducted in Muslim countries? And if this is the case when then is your point?

Doc Farrell

Although some suburbs might seem like Syria and Afghanistan sometimes, it's just as valuable to suggest that the opposite is true, that is, not particuarly insightful at all.

philologos

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have become aware recently that when children do the 'Communion' ritual at around eight years of age, they are required to go to confession.

I don't find this appropriate. What imaginary 'sins' is an eight year old likely to be confessing?

In fact I believe that young children being labelled as 'sinners' when clearly they are not, and threatening them with the concept of 'hell' qualifies as psychological abuse.

Sin = wrongdoing.

Although I don't hold to the RCC rite of confession, I think it's a little bit unbelievable to say that children as old as 8 cannot have ever sinned.

Also, Christians don't believe that sin is something to be burdened by, but rather that Jesus died in our place on the cross so that we can be forgiven. We have a merciful God who stood in our place for us. The idea that Christians are chronically depressed because they are sinners is wrong! Rather we are joyful that Jesus has paid the price and we have been born again by His resurrection:

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
(Romans 5:6-11 ESV)

Gospel = good news. Jesus has saved us from condemnation and hell and it is completely a free gift.

That's not abusive at all.

SuperInfinity

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Several people have compared the religious rituals carried out in schools here to the religious rituals in Muslim countries. A very appropriate and insightful comparison.

A very rubbish and ridiculous, crazy comparison more like. Cop yourself on.

I'm an atheist, at least at the current time, and came here a bit by accident from the front page links. But it saddens me to see people like you besmirching the name of the catholic church by fantasy, delusional ideas of persecution.

You know who people like you remind me of? Ruhama. They make up bizarre stories as they go along and instead of trying to give an honest, accurate picture, they try to twist it whatever way they can to manipulate and deceive. My aunt was a nun and she was always very honest and very kind and I never had any bad experiences with religion ever.

Not saying that there's no possibilities for abuse, obviously there is and there has been. But try looking for the proverbial devil elsewhere, since I'm sure far more things are harming your kids if you have any.

Kiwi in IE

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I suspect you would be much happier off in the A&A forum. It's the bastion of rationality. Your style would go down well there.

Anyway, can you tell me in what way religious rituals (and I suppose you mean Roman Catholic rituals) are similar to religious rituals conducted in Muslim countries? And if this is the case when then is your point?

The fact they are conducted within the education system is where the comparison lies. If I moved to Saudi Arabia (and I wouldn't for this reason), I would expect my personal freedoms within law, education and healthcare to be seriously restricted by religious ideas. I did not expect it from Ireland, a First World country in the 21st century. I am not giving out about Ireland, only the ridiculous hold the RCC seems to have over the place. And don't be led to believe you practising lot are the majority.

philologos

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The fact they are conducted within the education system is where the comparison lies. If I moved to Saudi Arabia (and I wouldn't for this reason), I would expect my personal freedoms within law, education and healthcare to be seriously restricted by religious ideas. I did not expect it from Ireland, a First World country in the 21st century. I am not giving out about Ireland, only the ridiculous hold the RCC seems to have over the place. And don't be led to believe you practising lot are the majority.

Fanny Craddock is not a Roman Catholic. I am not a Roman Catholic. Many on this forum aren't.

Those which are mightn't agree with the RCC having a large share in schooling.

Manach

Oh well that's what is having a Human rights act that preserves the families religious ethos expression is about.

Kiwi in IE

philologos wrote: »

Fanny Craddock is not a Roman Catholic. I am not a Roman Catholic. Many on this forum aren't.

Those which are mightn't agree with the RCC having a large share in schooling.

Well if even the religious don't agree why is it allowed to continue?

philologos

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Well if even the religious don't agree why is it allowed to continue?

I'm not opposed to having faith schools. What I would be opposed to would be dominance and a lack of choice in education.

Fanny Cradock

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The fact they are conducted within the education system is where the comparison lies.

That's not an answer to my question. What rituals are similar between Roman Catholic schools in Ireland and religious rituals in Muslim countries?

That faith schools exist shouldn't come as a surprise, especially considering New Zealand has its share of them.

Anyway, as you have probably deduced from some of the posts on this thread, I would think that at least some of the Christian here would be quite happy to see more non-denominational schools established. Does that come as a surprise to you?

Zombrex

philologos wrote: »

Gospel = good news. Jesus has saved us from condemnation and hell and it is completely a free gift.

That's not abusive at all.

It is not a free gift at all, you have to actively "accept" salvation, with a large range of interpretations as to what that means and how it is achieved (and and even wider range of ways you can fail to achieve it).

The idea that if you don't you will face eternal suffering in a lake of fire because you are wicked is hardly a positive thing to be teaching an impressionable child, who is more likely to simply fixate on the eternal suffering in a lack of fire, rather than the various convoluted ways to demonstrate to God that you actually have accepted Jesus Christ as your saviour.

For a start how does a child of 8 even accept Jesus, what ever interpretation of what that actually means you us. How does he even understand what that means. And more importantly, since he probably realises he doesn't, he will simply believe he is destined for hell.

Fanny Cradock

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Well if even the religious don't agree why is it allowed to continue?

Because the Roman Catholic Church was for years tasked by the State with the role of educators. You can't simply change the system overnight. This is partly because of the complexity involved in the orderly divestment of educational responsibilities and property from the Church. It's also partly because there is neither the money to do this nor anything to take their place. At least not yet.

Kiwi in IE

SuperInfinity wrote: »

A very rubbish and ridiculous, crazy comparison more like. Cop yourself on.

I'm an atheist, at least at the current time, and came here a bit by accident from the front page links. But it saddens me to see people like you besmirching the name of the catholic church by fantasy, delusional ideas of persecution.

You know who people like you remind me of? Ruhama. They make up bizarre stories as they go along and instead of trying to give an honest, accurate picture, they try to twist it whatever way they can to manipulate and deceive. My aunt was a nun and she was always very honest and very kind and I never had any bad experiences with religion ever.

Not saying that there's no possibilities for abuse, obviously there is and there has been. But try looking for the proverbial devil elsewhere, since I'm sure far more things are harming your kids if you have any.

Read the whole forum before you get your knickers in a twist. I was complaining of the RCC's dominance in schools, and the fact I do not think that the education system is an appropriate place for religious rituals. I was told by others that had I moved to Saudi Arabia instead of Ireland, I couldn't expect that the Muslim religion would not be imposed on me. That is my point. Ireland is a Western country in the 21st century, the power the RCC is given should not be comparible to the power religion has in Middle Eastern and third world countries. It hardly would have had effect if I was told to move to Canada, France or Australia to see how I like their state sponsored religious rituals.

Doc Farrell

It is changing kiwi, even some who run Catholic schools want some changes. The reason there are so many Catholic schools is because Ireland was so poor for so long that only Catholic orders would go near them (with the admirable exception of a few other denominations here and there).
Irish Caholics until the 20th century had little say and fewer shoes. A great Honour for a working class family would be to have a son become a priest. This led to two roads, one heroic and evangelical and the other to clericalism and all the sins that we've heard about over the last 20 years.
There are many changes happening and many adult Catholics are finding themselves having to grow up about their faith, which can initially be a painful and reactionary process.

Doc Farrell

Zombrex wrote: »

It is not a free gift at all, you have to actively accept salvation, with a large range of interpretations as to what that means and how it is achieved (and and even wider range of ways you can fail to achieve it).

The idea that if you don't you will face eternal suffering in a lake of fire because you are wicked is hardly a positive thing to be teaching an impressionable child, who is more likely to simply fixate on the eternal suffering in a lack of fire, rather than the various convoluted ways to demonstrate to God that you actually have accepted Jesus Christ as your saviour.

For a start how does a child of 8 even accept Jesus, what ever interpretation of what that actually means you us. How does he even understand what that means. And more importantly, since he probably realises he doesn't, he will simply believe he is destined for hell.

Zombrex kindly show me a PDF written by a Catholic school for kids making their first confession that mentions a lake of fire or even hell? There are dozens online. I think hell isn't mentioned to kids now until they are 12 and 13 which, as I work next to a secondary school, is probably the right age...

Kiwi in IE

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

That's not an answer to my question. What rituals are similar between Roman Catholic schools in Ireland and religious rituals in Muslim countries?

That faith schools exist shouldn't come as a surprise, especially considering New Zealand has its share of them.

Anyway, as you have probably deduced from some of the posts on this thread, I would think that at least some of the Christian here would be quite happy to see more non-denominational schools establishedy. Does that come as a surprise to you?

You are right NZ does have religious schools which are given some state funding but all schools run by the department of education are secular. In areas where there is only one school that school will always be secular so it is appropriate for families of all religions and no religion.

It dosn't suprise me at all that people of other religions; Protestant, Hindu, Buddhist etc would not want to be forced to send their children to an RCC school due to lack of secular ones which are appropriate for all.

Kiwi in IE

philologos wrote: »

I'm not opposed to having faith schools. What I would be opposed to would be dominance and a lack of choice in education.

Well that's what my family are faced with. A complete lack of choice.

Zombrex

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Zombrex kindly show me a PDF written by a Catholic school for kids making their first confession that mentions a lake of fire or even hell? There are dozens online. I think hell isn't mentioned to kids now until they are 12 and 13 which, as I work next to a secondary school, is probably the right age...

Not sure where to begin with this one ...

Firstly, its in the Bible. Are the children making their first communion unaware of what is actually in the Bible? If so what the heck are the agreeing to? By the Catholic Church's own guidelines no child should make first confession until they actually understand what they are doing. How is this achieved without them having never read the Bible or had it read to them?

Secondly why is a 12 year old at the right age to be told they are destined for an eternity of suffering if they fail to accept Jesus?

JimiTime

I'm not a catholic, but I remember going to confession in my school out of curiosity. Ironically, I just made stuff up that I did wrong (I was fairly goody two shoes kid ) Certainly didn't fear anything, or feel daunted etc. My parents always reasoned our faith though and encouraged questions etc. They weren't hellfire type of folk, and tbh, I don't remember any hell kind of stuff being taught in school etc.

Kiwi in IE

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Because the Roman Catholic Church was for years tasked by the State with the role of educators. You can't simply change the system overnight. This is partly because of the complexity involved in the orderly divestment of educational responsibilities and property from the Church. It's also partly because there is neither the money to do this nor anything to take their place. At least not yet.

Would it not be most appropriate for the Department of Education to take their place?

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm not a catholic, but I remember going to confession in my school out of curiosity. Ironically, I just made stuff up that I did wrong (I was fairly goody two shoes kid ) Certainly didn't fear anything, or feel daunted etc. My parents always reasoned our faith though and encouraged questions etc. They weren't hellfire type of folk, and tbh, I don't remember any hell kind of stuff being taught in school etc.

When was the first time you actually read the Bible or had it read to you?

Manach

The same RCC that have produced such an excellent school system that had created the world-class learning environment that had attracted so much inward movement? The notion that the education system is in some way the sole stakeholding of the State, is an erroneous assumption which is at odds with the traditional models of schooling which only were encroached on by the State in the interests of 19th century nationalism and providing workers with a miniumun of learning during the Industrial revolution. Catholic parents will not willing give up this tradition in the face of a Dept. of Education run by a teacher-union friendly minister.

Zombrex

Manach wrote: »

The same RCC that have produced such an excellent school system that had created the world-class learning environment that had attracted so much inward movement?

That is sarcasm, right?

Doc Farrell

Zombrex wrote: »

Not sure where to begin with this one ...

Firstly, its in the Bible. Are the children making their first communion unaware of what is actually in the Bible? If so what the heck are the agreeing to? By the Catholic Church's own guidelines no child should make first confession until they actually understand what they are doing. How is this achieved without them having never read the Bible or had it read to them?

Secondly why is a 12 year old at the right age to be told they are destined for an eternity of suffering if they fail to accept Jesus?

It is achieved by the kids being taught according to the PDFs now published by hundreds of parishes and freely available on the net. Although you might think that all priests preach like Fr Jack Hackett, it's not the case. Please try reading one so that you will know what the Church actually wants kids to know.

12 years is the correct age as lessons about hellfire are only noticed if they create visuals that can be inked onto school bags. Also all teenagers are horribly wicked.

Manach

Zombrex wrote: »

That is sarcasm, right?

At a personal level, the system seems for me to have functioned well, having inspired a life-long interest in education/skillsets from some excellent RCC teachers.
Offhand and without resorting to Google, only non-antedocal evidence from I've read in editions of the Specator on the excellence of the RCC run schools in the UK.

Kiwi in IE

philologos wrote: »

Sin = wrongdoing.

Although I don't hold to the RCC rite of confession, I think it's a little bit unbelievable to say that children as old as 8 cannot have ever sinned.

Also, Christians don't believe that sin is something to be burdened by, but rather that Jesus died in our place on the cross so that we can be forgiven. We have a merciful God who stood in our place for us. The idea that Christians are chronically depressed because they are sinners is wrong! Rather we are joyful that Jesus has paid the price and we have been born again by His resurrection:


Gospel = good news. Jesus has saved us from condemnation and hell and it is completely a free gift.

That's not abusive at all.

I'm really sorry but I just won't be able to reply to this one without getting myself a yellow card!

JimiTime

Zombrex wrote: »

When was the first time you actually read the Bible or had it read to you?

Couldn't tell you tbh, but from a young age (Maybe 3 or 4) I would have had bible stories such as Noah (I remember a fairly intense image of people perishing in the flood from a book I had), Samson, Adam and Eve, Moses, Jesus, David and Goliath etc. Not meaning to sound disrespectful, but the more super heroey stuff is what floated my boat as a kid. I remember having a tape that I'd play going to sleep, and always felt I could nod off after the Samson story was finished. I had all kinds of story books and tapes, but can honestly say that my bible ones were always my favourite. I didn't actually read the bible of my own volition until my teens, but tbh, it was a fairly uninspiring experience. All the geneologies, dimensions of temples etc just bored me to point of losing interest. It was in my early twenties that I really read it. Started with the NT and then selected books and skipped the dimensions types of stuff. From the time I was a kid up until now though, we always have some theological conversation in the house. Sometimes it would be due to my siblings or me raising a question about some scriptures they just read etc, or maybe we'd be discussing some modern issues in the context of God, and whats to come etc.

Zombrex

Doc Farrell wrote: »

It is achieved by the kids being taught according to the PDFs now published by hundreds of parishes and freely available on the net. Although you might think that all priests preach like Fr Jack Hackett, it's not the case. Please try reading one so that you will know what the Church actually wants kids to know.

12 years is the correct age as lessons about hellfire are only noticed if they create visuals that can be inked onto school bags. Also all teenagers are horribly wicked.

Can you give an example of one of these PDFs?

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Couldn't tell you tbh, but from a young age (Maybe 3 or 4) I would have had bible stories such as Noah (I remember a fairly intense image of people perishing in the flood from a book I had), Samson, Adam and Eve, Moses, Jesus, David and Goliath etc. Not meaning to sound disrespectful, but the more super heroey stuff is what floated my boat as a kid. I remember having a tape that I'd play going to sleep, and always felt I could nod off after the Samson story was finished. I had all kinds of story books and tapes, but can honestly say that my bible ones were always my favourite. I didn't actually read the bible of my own volition until my teens, but tbh, it was a fairly uninspiring experience. All the geneologies, dimensions of temples etc just bored me to point of losing interest. It was in my early twenties that I really read it. Started with the NT and then selected books and skipped the dimensions types of stuff. From the time I was a kid up until now though, we always have some theological conversation in the house. Sometimes it would be due to my siblings or me raising a question about some scriptures they just read etc, or maybe we'd be discussing some modern issues in the context of God, and whats to come etc.

How then did you not come across sin and hell as a kid? Where you just shielded from this stuff?

JimiTime

Zombrex wrote: »

How then did you not come across sin and hell as a kid? Where you just shielded from this stuff?

Well myself, siblings and my parents believe that hell is annihilation, or as the writer of Revelation put it, 'the second death of which there was no resurrection', so I obviously learned about it. There was nothing to be shielded from. It actually gives a sense of security and justice. To my childish mind, it was likely just, 'yeah, thats where the wicked go'. In school, I'm sure it was mentioned at times, but it obviously wasn't significant enough an event for me to recall it.

nagirrac

Kiwi, obviously you didn't do much homework if you moved to Ireland and did not expect a Catholic influenced society. I can see how it is difficult for people moving to Ireland to understand compared to more secular western countries but you have to try and understand it in historical terms.

Try and think about it this way. Ireland was a desperately poor country after gaining independence in 1921, not unlike many former colonies that had been raped for centuries. There was literally no second level education in Ireland outside of the main cities. Ireland went from nothing to having a relatively strong education system due to the combined efforts of the government and (mainly) the Catholic church. Many people today in Ireland who bash the church (for good reason) have benefitted enormously from the same education system, as did their parents and grandparents. I would say the Irish education system was excellent by world standards in the 20th century and given the resources the country had at their disposal that was quite the feat. Yes, some horrible atrocities happened (mostly in industrial schools sets up on the British model for dealing with "bad" children) but the vast majority of Irish people got a first world education in an at best second world country.

It is definitely long past time for Ireland to get on with it and become a secular nation but this is hard work and takes leadership, and unfortunately leadership is the last thing you will find in Irish political circles. In summary, I would say you are somewhat stuck and things are not likely to change dramatically in the near future. If you are relying on the government and civil service for a speedy resolution to your issues, I think you will be disappointed. Surely though if you feel so strongly about it you can request that your child not be prepared for Catholic sacraments? Its not compulsary is it?

Canis Lupus

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Zombrex kindly show me a PDF written by a Catholic school for kids making their first confession that mentions a lake of fire or even hell? There are dozens online. I think hell isn't mentioned to kids now until they are 12 and 13 which, as I work next to a secondary school, is probably the right age...

Genuinely lolled at the thought of keeping children in the dark about the religion they've been brought up in until they're 12 and then springing, 'oh yeah, if you're bad you'll burn forever'. It's sort like Santa but with torture

nozzferrahhtoo

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I don't find this appropriate. What imaginary 'sins' is an eight year old likely to be confessing?

We all had to go when I was in school too. We barely understood the concept and would meet up outside first trying to make up things to say to the priest and ensuring that the same things were not duplicated too many times incase the priest got suspicious. (Innocence of youth there, I am sure the priest knew damn well that most of what he heard was made up crap). One kid used to go in confessing to all kinds of violence and lies and more used against his twin sister. He had NO siblings, let alone a twin.

One day around 10 I think I had enough and I went through the standard rigmarole of making things up to tell the priest. At the end I said "Oh and one more confession... all that stuff I just confessed... made up... the lot of it".

I got the longest "penance" of anyone in the class (Can not remember what it was now but the usual multiple recitements of the Our Father and Hail Mary while dwelling on ones crimes against god) but at least I sat there proud that I was likely the only one in the class who had at least gone into the box and been honest, even if only belatedly.

nozzferrahhtoo

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Installing fear into young children and attacking their fragile self esteem by labelling them as sinners is abusive.

A sentence like this has the unfortunate effect on me of bringing me back to the documentry I watched called "Deborah-13". It was about a teenage girl who was home schooled by creationist evangelical christian young earther parents.

She was however a massively articulate and beautiful kid. A keen mind that had been filled with creationist 6000 year earth god fearing indoctrination.

That was bad enough but what really cut into me was half way into the show she broke down crying suddenly. Not just a couple of tears but rib shacking racking of her body crying and through her tears she espoused the idea she had been thought that she was a pathetic sinner before god, not worthy to be alive, yet ever so grateful that Jesus had "saved" her and loves her despite all her pathetic human existence and flaws.

People do get up in arms when atheists and more moderate theists throw around the phrase "Abuse" with relation to religion and children and quite often I too feel that phrase is over used for propaganda effect. We use it too often and that can be damaging, break down communication, and can dilute the effect of the word in scenarios where it really DOES apply.

But what you say above in the text I quoted actually can ring true all too often. That girl in that documentary had been abused. Horrifically mentally and psychologically abused. As you say her fragile self esteem was decimated with the concept she was a pathetic and worthless sinner and her love of jesus was fueled by a form of twisted "Stockholm Syndrome" effect of causing her to love the captor that put her in that state of being in the first place.

It was one of the most horrifically moving documentaries I had seen in my life and if you can find a copy on line I urge all and sundry to watch it.

The point of this of course does tie back into the subject of the thread and I do want to stay on topic. I think that sending children to confession sort of feeds into the same effect as above but on a smaller level. Teaching children that they are sinners who have to seek forgiveness for no other crime other than being exactly what god made them to be.