Is Audi the new Mercedes?

Stallingrad

A work colleague has just replaced his E-class with a new A6 and I can see why. Superior build, quality interiors, more dynamic image, and like Mercs of old, same sausage, different sizes approach to styling. It seems that Audi has moved squarely into Merc territory.

Unless you want the badge and slightly better ride comfort I really can't see what Mercs have to offer any more. In fact the only thing that counts against Audi in this brand conscious era is that their Audi is a VW is a SEAT is a Skoda, etc. Meanwhile BMW holds onto the drivers choice mantle, thanks to the worlds best marketing department. But if was running Mercedes I would be more than a bit concerned about where the company is going to be in 10 years time.

Honey-ec

Stallingrad wrote: »

A work colleague has just replaced his E-class with a new A6 and I can see why. Superior build, quality interiors, more dynamic image, and like Mercs of old, same sausage, different sizes approach to styling. It seems that Audi has moved squarely into Merc territory.

Unless you want the badge and slightly better ride comfort I really can't see what Mercs have to offer any more. In fact the only thing that counts against Audi in this brand conscious era is that their Audi is a VW is a SEAT is a Skoda, etc. Meanwhile BMW holds onto the drivers choice mantle, thanks to the worlds best marketing department. But if was running Mercedes I would be more than a bit concerned about where the company is going to be in 10 years time.

Audi have been no. 1 in the premium segment since last year, so it doesn't appear that there's much (if any) badge snobbery going on.

Mercedes have completely stagnated. Lumped now with the "old man's car" image and don't seem particularly bothered by it.

unkel

Stallingrad wrote: »

Meanwhile BMW holds onto the drivers choice mantle, thanks to the worlds best marketing department.

Interesting logic there

Wicklowandy

While i hate jeremy clarkson, around 1991 he said in his column in performance car that audi would be THE premium brand by 2010.

Considering the range they had then, compared to bmw / mercedes, it was a brave claim.

But by comparing a 12 a6 lately with a new e class, as much as it hurts me to say, he really was right.

Francie Barrett

I wouldn't go near a Mercedes. Thanks to their insistence on using dodgy timing chains, you are practically sitting on a time bomb once you get past any decent kind of mileage.

Matt Simis

unkel wrote: »

Interesting logic there

He clearly meant they are the drivers choice despite their marketing.. :pac:

"Joy is BMW", the 2 guys lovingly checking each other out in the 6 series advert... none of it sells the driving angle anymore. Its all feel good lifestyle now..
Anyhow.. I assumed the rise of Audi is due to good price, good marketing, good quality. I dont necessarily see all this at the cost of MB though. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-09-13/audi-to-beat-mercedes-in-2011-sales-as-demand-exceeds-targets.html

Volume is one thing, but whats the average selling price per marque? I suspect Audi sell far more cheaper cars.. which isnt so cool a headline.

Wicklowandy

The market for premium cars is static. Audi are gaining market share in a reducing market.

Of course its bad news for mercedes.

fricatus

Honey-ec wrote: »

Mercedes have completely stagnated. Lumped now with the "old man's car" image and don't seem particularly bothered by it.

Why would they be? The "grey pound/euro" and all that... a lot of older people tend to have more disposable income, what with kids raised, mortgage paid off and all.

MB would be crazy not to target that market, even if that means they've "stagnated" in the eyes of you young whippersnappers!

fricatus

Matt Simis wrote: »

He clearly meant they are the drivers choice despite their marketing.. :pac:

Oh God yeah, there's an ad for the new 3-series at present, and half of it is "terms and conditions apply, you will not own the goods until the final payment is made", blahdy-blah.

The fact that I'd still love a 3-series is testament to the quality of the product, despite the awful ads.

Stallingrad

unkel wrote: »

Interesting logic there

What I am getting at there is BMW is still thought of as the Ultimate Driving Machine. This despite the fact that in chasing a broader market (hence the Joy mumbo jumbo) they are really nothing special anymore outside of the M cars.

Wicklowandy

Its nothing new. Think of an 80s carb fed 318. It was about the badge then, and its about the badge now....

If the badge was that important to you, id much rather be sitting in a boggo audi than a boggo bmw or mercedes.

veetwin

Don't know if it's that cut and dried. Yes the A6 looks a better buy than the E class but the C class is more interesting than the awfully dull A4. The S class has that end of the market sewn up with the A8 being ultra rare. I'd say more than a few E class buyers are migrating to the E class Coupe which in fairness looks the business even though they seem to be aiming towards the older market but IMHO Mercedes have always done that. The E class was never a young mans car unless you were a taxi driver on the continent.

That said BMW probably (barely) outguns both Audi and Merc in all 3 classes.

krissovo

Stallingrad wrote: »

Unless you want the badge and slightly better ride comfort I really can't see what Mercs have to offer any more.

I own a Merc E class and regularly hire Audi's and I am not quite old man yet. With Merc's its the little things that add up and I only notice when I am not in one, plus I guess I am "brand loyal" now.

Audi is way behind cruiser comfort, front wheel drive is not "fun" to drive 90% of the time (however all wheel drive is an option), viewable wiper screen area, washer bottle capacity, logical interior, simple controls etc etc

Edit:

logical interior, simple controls

Hahaha, makes me look old

Eric Cartman

to be fair the 3 series is the best out of the c class / a4 range any day .

the e class has a fair holding as the 520d is common as muck these days so the A6 is gaining ground.

up in the high end the 7 series and s class still rule , and audi wont be biting off a chunk of that for quite some time, I like the a8 and id buy it over a 5 series or e class, but when you have the s65 amg and 760i there, the a8 just isnt even close.

Monty Burnz

Audi seems to have taken the mantle of 'the choice of unpleasant drivers' from BMW in the last 5 years. 50% of all knob-related driving used to be carried out in Beemers, with everyone else making up the remaining 50%. Now that 50% appears to be Audis.

Very odd - it must be marketing-related.

*obviously I'm not saying all Audi-drivers or BMW are/were knobs...

H3llR4iser

Stallingrad wrote: »

What I am getting at there is BMW is still thought of as the Ultimate Driving Machine. This despite the fact that in chasing a broader market (hence the Joy mumbo jumbo) they are really nothing special anymore outside of the M cars.

BMW is also benefiting from the fact that right now it has next to zero competition - Audi decided they're the new Mercedes, Alfa Romeo won't make a decent car as long as they stay under Marchionne's management and pretty much everybody else in the D segment are producing old man barges and lack the motorsport history to appeal to the general public as a "sporty" brand (the Alfa-BMW rivalry and duopoly in various classes of Touring spanned decades from the '60s to the early 2000s, Audi's rallying success with the Quattro is widely known).

Right now, a buyer that wants a sport compact executive can choose between a 3-Series, a 3-Series or a 3-Series. I had the opportunity to drive a '07 320d over a 500km trip a couple of years ago; Nice mix of roads, including a long motorway stretch and a nice bendy country road. Drove the wheels off the thing and while it was decidedly an excellent car, responsive engine and sharp handling with the added enjoyment of driving a RWD again after years, it didn't have a single characteristic that would make me choose one over a different sport sedan...if an alternative was available, that is. As a matter of fact it felt amazingly similar to the 156 I had, factoring in the obvious drivetrain difference. Problem is the 156 is no more, the 159 was never fully brought up to potential and not produced anymore either, the A4 has been transformed into a Teacher's/Pensioner's car, the rest are tacky or sleep inducing.

Wicklowandy

I know its a matter of taste, but i think the current 3 series is ugly.

But i take the point, the merc s is far nicer looking,

Jack breen

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I wouldn't go near a Mercedes. Thanks to their insistence on using dodgy timing chains, you are practically sitting on a time bomb once you get past any decent kind of mileage.

So by your logic that you read from some other unreliable source do all Mercs use chains?

Mycroft H

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Audi seems to have taken the mantle of 'the choice of unpleasant drivers' from BMW in the last 5 years. 50% of all knob-related driving used to be carried out in Beemers, with everyone else making up the remaining 50%. Now that 50% appears to be Audis.

Very odd - it must be marketing-related.

*obviously I'm not saying all Audi-drivers or BMW are/were knobs...

Totally agree. Someone tailgating you on the M50? Decent chance its a bellend in an Audi/BMW.

I'd also choose an Alfa/Volvo/Saab before the BMW/Audi

_Kaiser_

BX 19 wrote: »

Totally agree. Someone tailgating you on the M50? Decent chance its a bellend in an Audi/BMW.

I'd have agreed a year or two ago, but these days it's just/more as likely to be a 20-40 year old "safer driver" in a hatchback in my experience

On-topic, I've been keeping an occasional eye out for a nice A6 but the search for something I could realistically afford the cost to change continues

Supergurrier

No because

1. I haven't heard of an Audi randomly going up in flames.
2. Mercedes (S-class in particular) was a trend setting brand and audi is not.
3. In general mercedes drivers aren't ignorant twats

Supergurrier

Supergurrier wrote: »

No because

1. I haven't heard of an Audi randomly going up in flames.
2. Mercedes (S-class in particular) was a trend setting brand and audi is not.
3. In general mercedes drivers aren't ignorant twats

so the type of car someone drives determines their personality

Matt Simis

Stallingrad wrote: »

What I am getting at there is BMW is still thought of as the Ultimate Driving Machine. This despite the fact that in chasing a broader market (hence the Joy mumbo jumbo) they are really nothing special anymore outside of the M cars.

Yeah thats kinda rubbish too though.
BMW in Ireland is the 520d. BMW as a whole though is the 535d/640d, the new twin turbo V8 x50i series, the not M-cars "M Enhanced" stuff, the M550d, the 335i, 135i etc. Its proper LSD's when near everyone is is scamming the $hit out of their customers with "electronic diffs". Its 50:50 weight distribution, its an AWD system that actually competes with Quattro (unlike Mercs efforts), its 60mpg without looking like a Prius. Its RWD and RWD bias on AWD.


Audi have far more mass market appeal then BMW or Mercedes, so its a weak point they should sell more (than Mercedes), of course they should. Why did it take so long is the real question.

The Pontiac

Mercedes-Benz Cars Set Record Worldwide and in U.S. for 2011

THE YEAR 2011 SET A NEW RECORD FOR MERCEDES-BENZ CARS, WITH A TOTAL OF 1,362,908 MERCEDES-BENZ, SMART AND MAYBACH VEHICLES SOLD

Full article

And this year (2012) Merc are breaking more records.

Mercedes-Benz Gets Record October Sales Figures Full article

Supergurrier

allinthehead wrote: »

so the type of car someone drives determines their personality

No but sometimes it's a reflection of it

I supposed the comment is fair when you are looking at the mid range and entry level models but when you start looking at the serious toys the badge snobbery would take over most people inc myself and audi wouldnt get a look in imo.

bmstuff

Audi might be number 1 in terms of vehicles sold, but I am sorry not putting stalk controls for the radio on the steering wheel as a standard on a recent A4 is really taking customers for monkeys.

mickdw

bmstuff wrote: »

Audi might be number 1 in terms of vehicles sold, but I am sorry not putting stalk controls for the radio on the steering wheel as a standard on a recent A4 is really taking customers for monkeys.

Sure if people still buy the cars and are happy to pay a couple of hundred extra for this, its hard to blame audi.

bmstuff

mickdw wrote: »

Sure if people still buy the cars and are happy to pay a couple of hundred extra for this, its hard to blame audi.

Sorry but in my opinion that should be standard
Digital TV tuner, I can understand. But not able to increase/decrease volume from the steering wheel, I am sorry, in 2012 it is considered a hazard almost having to bend over to turn the volume down or switch the next track on the radio.

nukenelly

This thread remindsme of this brilliant ad from the 90's. The flash 80s were long gone and Audi was the anti-BMW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIQ-283wKgg

It's amazing how things come full circle!

I'm actually a recent Audi convert. I went in to look at an A4 in '08 and practically ran out of the showroom - full of stuffed shirts and glass-plate corporate nonsense. However I recently bought an A4 Technik (from UK) after swearing I'd NEVER buy one.

What I really hate - truth be told - is the cynical way the A4 is marketed in Ireland - 90% are 120bhp, small wheels, cloth seats. The UK one I got is fully loaded and it makes such a difference IMO. 136 bhp won't blow your doors off but it is much better than I expected. No lag and smoother than the well respected BMW 2.0D.

The current A6 deserves success. With it's aluminium construction it actually has an engineering USP that many modern Audis don't have. The interior is fantastic - it beats the pants off everything in it's class and the power no longer lags behind the Munich boys.

Matt Simis

nukenelly wrote: »

136 bhp won't blow your doors off but it is much better than I expected. No lag and smoother than the well respected BMW 2.0D.

The current A6 deserves success. With it's aluminium construction it actually has an engineering USP that many modern Audis don't have. The interior is fantastic - it beats the pants off everything in it's class and the power no longer lags behind the Munich boys.

But the BMW 2.0d is a 184bhp engine..

nukenelly

nukenelly wrote: »

......No lag .........

:eek:

How did they manage that :pac:

ShiresV2

Matt Simis wrote: »

But the BMW 2.0d is a 184bhp engine..

The 316d and 318d are also 2.0L diesels are they not?

bazz26

ShiresV2 wrote: »

The 316d and 318d are also 2.0L diesels are they not?

Yes, detuned with smaller injectors. Audi also have detuned versions of the VAG 2.0 TDi, 120bhp and 140bhp.

waxon-waxoff

I hope Audi is not the new Mercedes as Audi is already the new Saab, Volvo, Lexus & Alfa Romeo.

The choice for used luxury car buyers is gonna be poor in future. If you want a small car its the A4, if you want something bigger its the 520d. In the last few days the old SDFA in Clonskeagh has become a new Audi dealership too.

The Pontiac

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

I hope Audi is not the new Mercedes as Audi is already the new Saab, Volvo, Lexus & Alfa Romeo.

The choice for used luxury car buyers is gonna be poor in future. If you want a small car its the A4, if you want something bigger its the 520d. In the last few days the old SDFA in Clonskeagh has become a new Audi dealership too.

Give me a Volvo S60 any day of the week. More individual, better looking and would be more welcome on the 'cool wall'..

SomeGuyCalledMi

http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/s-class/top-20-mercedes-benz-assistance-programs/

Check out the tech in the next S-Class. I especially like permanent high beams.

Wicklowandy

But could you justify what <90% of people buy with a premium badge?

Poor spec, lowest power/lowest co2 diesels.

I think we agree, Bmw/merc/audi/volvo make some beautiful models....just irish people are dazzled by badge and cheap road tax on 40k+ motors and buy cars that you wont look twice at when the reg plate dates

SomeGuyCalledMi

Wicklowandy wrote: »

But could you justify what <90% of people buy with a premium badge?

Poor spec, lowest power/lowest co2 diesels.

I think we agree, Bmw/merc/audi/volvo make some beautiful models....just irish people are dazzled by badge and cheap road tax on 40k+ motors and buy cars that you wont look twice at when the reg plate dates

It's not just Ireland. In the UK the 3 series outsells the Avensis. Nothing wrong with that. It's a nicer car and holds its value better. Might even work out Costing the same over 3 or 4 years.

Honey-ec

Jasiah White Cheek wrote: »

I supposed the comment is fair when you are looking at the mid range and entry level models but when you start looking at the serious toys the badge snobbery would take over most people inc myself and audi wouldnt get a look in imo.

So you'd turn your nose up at an R8 if someone offered you one?!

RedorDead

Wicklowandy wrote: »

The market for premium cars is static. Audi are gaining market share in a reducing market.

Of course its bad news for mercedes.

Where is this happening? As far as I can make out in every major market and in Ireland the premium market is growing.

RedorDead

Matt Simis wrote: »

Audi have far more mass market appeal then BMW or Mercedes, so its a weak point they should sell more (than Mercedes), of course they should. Why did it take so long is the real question.

Audi in Ireland are (on the whole) priced higher than BMW but outsell them. Does this not contradict your point above?

Wicklowandy

RedorDead wrote: »

Where is this happening? As far as I can make out in every major market and in Ireland the premium market is growing.

The market expended greatly with the vrt changes in 2008 and the repricing of low co2 (generally diesel) 'premium' models, but has been static / slight contraction since.

Premium manufacturers are fighting for a piece of the same pie.

As someone says about the uk, the market for regular saloons (avensis, mondeo et al) has been in freefall for many years. (eg how many 405s were sold in the uk compared to 407s) while the market for crossover /mpv and basic premium saloons have grown.

To some a 316 is going to be more desirable than a well specced passat.

Nickindublin

All these premium brands have there pluses. Like BMW are considered the best to drive. Audi have the best interiors and Mercedes for comfort. I don't think any of them are head and shoulders above the other but better in certain areas.

It is then down to what each individual wants most in the car they drive.

Tea 1000

I think this thread is about 2 years out of date really. Mercedes have been on the claw-back since the current C-Class came out. The current E-Class looks like a more premium product than the previous one did, and even the SLK and SL are both much more youthful and energetic looking than their predecessors. They've been trying to shed their older image for quite a while now, and it is slowly but surely working. In terms of pedigree, they have more than any other company in the world considering they made horse-drawn wagons before actually inventing the motor car.
Recently they signed Lewis Hamilton to their works team, in a move that they hope will help with global brand image selling to a more youthful market.
Take the cars individually, the new A-Class looks so much better than the old one. THe C-Class competes very closely to the excellent 3-series (unlike the A4), the E-Class does it's own thing very well and ignores this sporty effort with luxury balance that BMW have largely failed at since the E39, and the A6 never competed with at all with poor dynamics (albiet excellent refinement, if quite unforgiving on rough roads). The S-Class is still king of the top of the hill to be fair. The new C-Class coupe is actually a viable alternative to the 3-Series coupe.
Audi are the most popular in this country because of good marketing and a large degree of natural progression. The amount of women I've met who were proud Golf owners all aspired to drive an A3 next, and Passat owners tend to drool over A4's, despite the fact that the A3 came with a prehistoric 1.6 petrol up until fairly recently, and the A4 (despite it's decent interior) is dynamically the worst car in it's class and offers the least over any of the other competition, not only from BMW or Mercedes.
The new A6 is a league ahead of the old one alright, but it badly needed to be. But as pointed out, the F10 5-Series, current E-Class (about to be facelifted significantly) and new A6 are finally very close to each other with each offering something slightly different to the other, so your choice should be based on your individual requirements, but alas badge wins out for many! I wouldn't rate Audi high on the reliability list though.

nukenelly

Matt Simis wrote: »

But the BMW 2.0d is a 184bhp engine..

Yes, fair enough BMW are still ahead on top trumps bhp figures but equivalent Audi is 177bhp -hardly a big difference. I wouldn't make a decision on which is best without driving both - 6bhp is not going to sway me.

RoverJames wrote: »

:eek:
How did they manage that :pac:

OK maybe turbo-lag is a bit '80s but...the power that is there is relatively linear and smooth - that's all. BTW I don't mind :eek: but :pac: is just bordering on being sarcastic and ill-mannered.

<Ollie> wrote: »

Give me a Volvo S60 any day of the week. More individual, better looking and would be more welcome on the 'cool wall'..

OK well I see your point totally. I really liked the S60 but boot too smal for my needs. Also, call me old fashioned but I'm in the sticks and like to have a spare wheel.

Tea 1000 wrote: »

The new A6 is a league ahead of the old one alright, but it badly needed to be. But as pointed out, the F10 5-Series, current E-Class (about to be facelifted significantly) and new A6 are finally very close to each other with each offering something slightly different to the other, so your choice should be based on your individual requirements, but alas badge wins out for many! I wouldn't rate Audi high on the reliability list though.

Yes, I think think the A6 is stronger versus the opposition that it has been for many generations. However I'm not sure the 5-series is the stand out class leader it was with the E39/E60. The E-class was probably at it's peak back in the W124 days. They're all perhaps more closely matched than ever right now...

lomb

Audi needs quattro. And quattro bumps up the cost and the co2 (and lowers the fuel economy) which bumps up the vrt and road tax meaning few Audis get quattro. Front wheel drive is horrible especially as the bhp goes up.

Honey-ec

Honey-ec wrote: »

So you'd turn your nose up at an R8 if someone offered you one?!

Obviously not, however if I was in the market for a supercar it would be a ferrari or lambo, not an audi.

bazz26

The R8 is the Lambo Gallardo's brother though. :pac:

Matt Simis

nukenelly wrote: »

Yes, I think think the A6 is stronger versus the opposition that it has been for many generations. However I'm not sure the 5-series is the stand out class leader it was with the E39/E60. The E-class was probably at it's peak back in the W124 days. They're all perhaps more closely matched than ever right now...

I think most people see that the other way around, the F10 is a clear class leader now, the E60 had better competition. The E39 and E34, they had none. :P

I would agree though that Merc are reeling from the poor reliability image (plus expensive labour) they got from just after the W124 era till 3years ago (allegedly "better now"). From the Mechanics I know (who have several Mercs) to the Reliability indexes online, that poor reputation is spot on.


PS: I sold my S8 a couple of months ago, have a W126 and a E31 BMW now, so I would consider myself fairly unbiased between the 3. Ive prolly still had more VAG cars though.

unkel

lomb wrote: »

Audi needs quattro.

Most Audis have Mickey Mouse quattro these days - not much to write home about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvqQuC_8VrM