Reworking Dublin's quays

markpb

BenShermin wrote: »

Why can't the red line Luas tracks from Heuston to The Point not become a dedicated public transportway. Trams at there most frequent on the red line are 3.5mins apart afaik. Therefore there's at least 3mins at peak times where Luas tracks are left completely idle. Why not use these minutes wisely and allow buses to use the luas tracks.

Dublin Bus dwell time is abysmal. Letting a single bus use the Luas tracks and then sit down for ages while everyone gets on and off through a single door would almost be guaranteed to delay a Luas. Until they sorted out their access and ticketing issues, there's a good reason why the RPA want to keep them at bay.

the_syco

monument wrote: »

I was very sceptical anything could work the whole way along the quays until I seen these concepts which came out of a blue sky type workshop last year, ran by the NTA and the city council, but not directly part of the current process and details and outline maps here. I repeat: These are NOT official options at least at this stage.

Option one would generate multiple bottle necks. Option two would be a bottleneck.

You'd also need to ban taxis picking up and dropping off along the quays for both plans, otherwise they'd clog up the system.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Dublin Bus dwell time is abysmal. Letting a single bus use the Luas tracks and then sit down for ages while everyone gets on and off through a single door would almost be guaranteed to delay a Luas. Until they sorted out their access and ticketing issues, there's a good reason why the RPA want to keep them at bay.

I'd also argue that it would hold buses up. The bus tends to be faster between Heuston and O'Connell Street than the tram is from my almost daily observations.

Interestingly the recent NTA determination report on fare increases includes the following statement on page 8 (which no one appears to have picked up on), which may have some impact on dwell times going forward.

Beyond 2013, Dublin Bus is planning to move to a simplified fare structure

seamus

the_syco wrote: »

Option one would generate multiple bottle necks. Option two would be a bottleneck.

You'd also need to ban taxis picking up and dropping off along the quays for both plans, otherwise they'd clog up the system.

There's no reason why you couldn't create a series of lay-byes along the quays for taxis to pull in to drop off passengers, then throw the book at any taxi who stops somewhere else along the road.

For the record I agree that neither plan seems ideal, but I don't think any plan should cater for taxis stopping to drop off/pick up passengers wherever they feel like it. If anything we should be stamping down on that behaviour.

BostonB

lxflyer wrote: »

Are you suggesting that public transport should not take people where they wish to go to?

I've absolutely no objection to people walking/cycling nor any measures encouraging same, but I think there has to be the reality check that the bus is and will remain the dominant form of public transport in the city, and all measures possible that make it more attractive to use rather than the car should be encouraged. That means accessing the city centre.

Its simply maths. There isn't enough capacity for all the cars.

They reduced the capacity by bringing in Bus lanes. But buses and trains aren't attracting people, they have falling numbers. So more congestion.

Dublin was found to be the 6th most congested city. That’s

his is a significant rise in traffic congestion in Dublin from last year when Dublin was the 24th most congested city with a 24.2% congestion level.

http://www.motorcheck.ie/blog/dublin-top-10-worst-traffic-congestion-europe/

The reality is a lot of these journeys are very short distance. Many of them have no need to be done by a car. But by prioritising the car traffic, everything else (more sustainable) is suffering.

BostonB

seamus wrote: »

...For the record I agree that neither plan seems ideal, but I don't think any plan should cater for taxis stopping to drop off/pick up passengers wherever they feel like it. If anything we should be stamping down on that behaviour.

Causes some very dangerous driving by taxi's. At the least they cause tailbacks with their antisocial blocking of other traffic.

LXFlyer

BostonB wrote: »

Its simply maths. There isn't enough capacity for all the cars.

They reduced the capacity by bringing in Bus lanes. But buses and trains aren't attracting people, they have falling numbers. So more congestion.





http://www.motorcheck.ie/blog/dublin-top-10-worst-traffic-congestion-europe/

The reality is a lot of these journeys are very short distance. Many of them have no need to be done by a car. But by prioritising the car traffic, everything else (more sustainable) is suffering.

I'm talking about retaining access for buses to the city centre areas, not cars.

BostonB

The plans all do that.

I'm just disagreeing with the idea you need bus or train access to everywhere. You just need to get close enough to walk or cycle.

LXFlyer

The plans for the quays do that yes - I was talking about suggestions of removing buses from the central O'Connell Street/Dame Street/Nassau Street axis.

BostonB

Ah.

But thinking of that. Is the quays to O'Connell Street/Dame Street/Nassau Street too far a walk?

I know I'd often get off a bus early as its quicker/more pleasant to walk the last bit.

Bit like the express buses. Less stop, straighter routes, much faster?

Anyway theres some interesting ideas to kick about.

Hilly Bill

BenShermin wrote: »

Motorists constantly break lights in the city centre also, and how many motorists can honestly say they've never broken the 30km/h limits?? Until there's proper Garda enforcement on motorists, peds and cyclists these things are not going to change unfortunately.

I don't know if it's coincidental, but in Continental cities where pedestrians and cyclists have a large amount of the city closed off from traffic, the level of obedience at major pedestrian crossings seems imo to be close to 100%. Now that could be down to stricter police enforcement or maybe it's the fact that Continentals, unlike Dubliners, don't have to stop walking every two minutes in "their" cities because they hit a red man at a crossing.

Recent events in College Green were great but there should be events there every weekend. This is impossible without pedestrianisation, Gardaí, Dublin Bus, Dublin City Council and the local businesses in the area all have to work hard together for anything to go ahead on this site. On Grand Place in Brussels all you need is a few stalls two policemen on duty and hey presto, you have a successful beerfest or a flower market. On my last visit to Brussels I got a few cans of beer and went down to Grand Place for a free jazzfest, a great cheap traffic free evening. And before you go on about the weather in Dublin city and scum bags, it rains more in Brussels and petty crime is a lot worse in Brussels than it is in Dublin.


Anyway, back in the real world (outside of my idealistic dreams of a traffic free square in Dublin) I've a rather simplistic idea for a cycleway on the quays. Why can't the red line Luas tracks from Heuston to The Point not become a dedicated public transportway. Trams at there most frequent on the red line are 3.5mins apart afaik. Therefore there's at least 3mins at peak times where Luas tracks are left completely idle. Why not use these minutes wisely and allow buses to use the luas tracks. This is actually quite a regular occurrence in Brussels where at some points in the city buses and trams share the same stations/stops. You could then use the freed up buslane space on the quays for a two way cycle track, simples.

Why do you need a cycle track along the quays? why not have it run the same as the Luas?
There are plenty of places in the city as it is that have concerts etc without the need to turn college green into a venue. You want a beerfest? you had one at the back of the IFSC in October, the same place has a xmas market and other attractions through the year. There is no need to divert traffic just so that you can have a few drinks outside and look at some flowers.

bk

Well if we had proper integrated ticketing [1] then you could terminate the bus routes on the north, south, east and west sides of the city and allow people to complete their journey via LUAS (once BXD is built) and Dublin Bikes.

This sort of setup is very common in many European cities. Take Prague for instance, the city center only has trams and metro, no buses. Buses operate from stations that integrate with the tram/metro outside the city and it works very well.

While it would be preferable if Dart Underground and Metro North were built, even without them once Luas BXD is built we still have a pretty decent network to start from.

Buses could terminate at Connolly and Hueston stations to the east and west. Broadstone or Parnell Square to the North and Stephens Green to the south.

Then you pedestrianise College Green, eliminate buses from the city center, reduce the traffic on college green to just one lane for taxis, more space for pedestrians and cyclist, reduce traffic on the quays and increase pedestrian and cyclist space there too.

[1] I prefer an Amsterdam style system. A single flat fee when you first board bus/tram/metro followed by a per km charge. If you switch transport mode within 30 minutes you don't pay the flat fee again, you just continue to pay the per km charge.

BostonB

I remember being in Germany 20yrs go which had an integrated train, bus, tram ticketing system.

gurramok

Might seem like a stupid question, but where is the final destination of the morning traffic eastbound on the quays? They can't all be working around the IFSC parking their cars?! I suspect some of these drivers are thru traffic and should be using the NCR\SCR from their suburban departing point but don't bother.

And for westbound traffic on the quays, a fair bit of it originates from Pearse st. Why can't this traffic be diverted further back on the southside to the SCR before it hits Pearse st? Same analogy for Gardiner st\Amiens st traffic that turn right onto the quays westbound, whats wrong with using the NCR? Is it too many traffic lights or what?

Might help reduce volumes on the quays with a bit of diversion imagination at the source.

RainyDay

BostonB wrote: »

Lots of countries have trams and high cycle use. I'm sure there workable examples that can be copied.

Trams and high cycle use is not the issue. Running cycle paths alongside the tram tracks is the issue. I'd love to see any examples that you have of how this might work.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Well if we had proper integrated ticketing [1] then you could terminate the bus routes on the north, south, east and west sides of the city and allow people to complete their journey via LUAS (once BXD is built) and Dublin Bikes.

This sort of setup is very common in many European cities. Take Prague for instance, the city center only has trams and metro, no buses. Buses operate from stations that integrate with the tram/metro outside the city and it works very well.

While it would be preferable if Dart Underground and Metro North were built, even without them once Luas BXD is built we still have a pretty decent network to start from.

Buses could terminate at Connolly and Hueston stations to the east and west. Broadstone or Parnell Square to the North and Stephens Green to the south.

Then you pedestrianise College Green, eliminate buses from the city center, reduce the traffic on college green to just one lane for taxis, more space for pedestrians and cyclist, reduce traffic on the quays and increase pedestrian and cyclist space there too.

[1] I prefer an Amsterdam style system. A single flat fee when you first board bus/tram/metro followed by a per km charge. If you switch transport mode within 30 minutes you don't pay the flat fee again, you just continue to pay the per km charge.

There is no way that anything like that could work with only two LUAS lines on place. The very fact that the LUAS cannot cope at Heuston without DB routes 90 and 145 is testament to that. Have you any grasp of the peak loadings on DB through the city? It's fairly obvious that you don't.

There would have to be a high quality metro/tram network in place before you could contemplate anything like this.

Nice idea, but frankly in the current climate that is not going to happen.

BostonB

NCR/SCR, IFSC , Pearse st seems especially bad for traffic. When I'm driving I avoid all those routes and go through the city center,

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

There would have to be a high quality metro/tram network in place before you could contemplate anything like this.

Nice idea, but frankly in the current climate that is not going to happen.

Agreed, ideally you would want DU and MN in place to achieve this. But still worth planning towards (e.g. do integrated ticketing like Amsterdam now).

BostonB

RainyDay wrote: »

Trams and high cycle use is not the issue. Running cycle paths alongside the tram tracks is the issue. I'd love to see any examples that you have of how this might work.

Considering you can drive and walk beside trams I don't get why you can't cycle along side of them.

I haven't been able to find any good example, cycling doesn't seem to factor into any Tram system I can find.

RainyDay

BostonB wrote: »

Considering you can drive and walk beside trams I don't get why you can't cycle along side of them.

It's a question of numbers. How can you route a substantial number of cyclists, a tram, and a large pile of pedestrians getting on or off the tram in the same area. If the bike path runs between the stop and the tram, the bikes run into peds as they head to/from the tram. If the bike path runs behind the stop, the bikes run into peds as they head to/from the stop.

I just can't see how it can work.

BostonB

On the red route, going into town on the quays isn't bad for cyclists. Its the coming out of town. South quays isn't great. TBH you could route cycles down parallel roads for the most part. In places where you can't they've completely unnecessary mega wide foot paths.

Iwannahurl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfZvKUY3WvQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess's_paradox



.

CIE

Iwannahurl wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfZvKUY3WvQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess's_paradox

"May"?

Let me see. No pedestrianisation has ever reduced congestion in Dublin. They closed off North Earl Street, it got worse; they closed off Grafton Street, it got worse still; they narrowed Talbot Street, yes, it got steadily worse; they reduced O'Connell Street from eight lanes to four, yes, things got still worse; half of Abbey Street Lower and Middle (and all of Upper) got taken over by Luas, guess what happened with traffic...yes, worse again. The only places that got relief were ones like the Coombe, because they widened Cork Street and extended it all the way to Dean Street, taking the bus traffic bound for Crumlin and Walkinstown off there; South New Street and Clanbrassil Street also got widened. More like Braess' urban legend.

bigar

They should close the North Quays for all traffic (save cyclists in their bicycle lane) from Four Courts to Custom House, I'd say. Do not worry about where cars and the other motorised transport needs to go. They will find other ways or will be forced to think of alternatives. It was done years ago all over Europe so it will work here.
Busses should take a look at how it's done on the Mainland as well: a few hubs near the city centre and a Luas or shuttle bus connecting them all. No need then for the dozens of busses crisscrossing the city centre.
Also agree that O'Connell Street, Westmoreland Street and College Green should be car free as well. Get rid of cars and give the city centre back to the pedestrians!

BostonB

CIE wrote: »

"May"?

Let me see. No pedestrianisation has ever reduced congestion in Dublin. ....

Improving one section simply moves the problem to the next bottle neck. Also demand keeps increasing to fill any new capacity.

Aard

CIE wrote: »

...half of Abbey Street Lower and Middle (and all of Upper) got taken over by Luas, guess what happened with traffic...yes, worse again...

You're thinking in numbers of cars, versus numbers of people. Yes, the numbers of cars getting through decreased, but the numbers of people getting through (on the Luas) vastly increased.

The same thing happens when car lanes are given over to bus lanes. Single-occupancy vehicles are a very inefficient use of road-space.

hardCopy

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Of course, so the answer would be to leave it alone and not divert traffic from parts of the city centre and add to the traffic on smaller roads .

Just close the quays and let people take the M50. There are few good reasons for private cars to enter the city on a daily basis and even less to allow them cross the city.

CIE

BostonB wrote: »

Improving one section simply moves the problem to the next bottle neck. Also demand keeps increasing to fill any new capacity.

Not if rail transport is correspondingly improved. Total improvements by IE have consisted of one new light rail line that avoids a lot of the heaviest-populated areas and the partial reopening of a former heavy rail line as light rail, and the costs thereof not as low as they could have been.

BostonB

I was talking purely about the road network. But I agree about the trains.

monument

Interisting discussion...

CIE wrote: »

"May"?

Let me see. No pedestrianisation has ever reduced congestion in Dublin. They closed off North Earl Street, it got worse; they closed off Grafton Street, it got worse still; they narrowed Talbot Street, yes, it got steadily worse; they reduced O'Connell Street from eight lanes to four, yes, things got still worse; half of Abbey Street Lower and Middle (and all of Upper) got taken over by Luas, guess what happened with traffic...yes, worse again. The only places that got relief were ones like the Coombe, because they widened Cork Street and extended it all the way to Dean Street, taking the bus traffic bound for Crumlin and Walkinstown off there; South New Street and Clanbrassil Street also got widened. More like Braess' urban legend.

You seem overly concerned with moving cars around rather than moving people.

Far more people are now living and working in the city centre than when before those things were done to North Earl Street, Grafton Street, Talbot Street, and O'Connell Street.

If those projects has not been completed people would have been far less tolerant of walking around the city -- both walking from a to b directly (which people do in large numbers in Dublin), and also walking the "last mile" of their public transport trips or to get to connecting services.

That's just talking about movement. A city is more about movement and those projects are widely accepted as been successful in doing their bit to enhance the retail experance and the genral feeling of the city.

Note: I'm also not fully convinced of closing the city centre off for buses, but it may work in limited ways. In any case, better routing of buses (ie less routes squeezed into just a few roads) and better bus prorirty for buses where ever they go is the way forward.

CIE wrote: »

The only places that got relief were ones like the Coombe, because they widened Cork Street and extended it all the way to Dean Street, taking the bus traffic bound for Crumlin and Walkinstown off there; South New Street and Clanbrassil Street also got widened. More like Braess' urban legend.

Braess' looks at the network, you're just talking about what in most cities are single streets.