Ferrari's tactics today - Ok or not?

Darkglasses

So Ferrari opted to break the seal on Massa's gearbox to give him a 5 place grid penalty, in order to put Alonso on the "good" side of the start. In your personal opinion, how ok is this?

Personally, it made me sick. Totally against the spirit of racing. Some will say that racing means doing whatever you can to give yourself the best chance of winning, but that was just too underhand and conniving to be in the spirit of racing. Just my opinion.

Hope the powers that be change the rules so that penalties are either 4 or 6 places, to prevent this happening again.

(I've chosen the word "ok" just because it is vague - clearly it is within the rules to do this, as they got away with it, but I didn't want to say "ethical" either)

SniperSight

Yes.
The history of F1 is pretty much all about pushing boundaries and the letter of the law to gain those extra tenths.

resserbigp

Darkglasses wrote: »

So Ferrari opted to break the seal on Massa's gearbox to give him a 5 place grid penalty, in order to put Alonso on the "good" side of the start. In your personal opinion, how ok is this?

Personally, it made me sick. Totally against the spirit of racing. Some will say that racing means doing whatever you can to give yourself the best chance of winning, but that was just too underhand and conniving to be in the spirit of racing. Just my opinion.

Hope the powers that be change the rules so that penalties are either 4 or 6 places, to prevent this happening again.

(I've chosen the word "ok" just because it is vague - clearly it is within the rules to do this, as they got away with it, but I didn't want to say "ethical" either)

It is not within in the rules, that is why Massa was penalized, the problem is it was worth doing as the penalty for doing it was meaningless. Maybe not so blatantly, but it happens in all sports, breaking the rules to gain an advantage, maybe the solution here should be that the team rather than the individual should be punished as it was a team decision and both memebers of the team put back. Also I think the fact that they admitted doing it even before the race had started should be taken into account, they basically had a laugh at the rules. It`s is a really corrupt sport anyway.

EvilMonkey

Its a team sport. If its not ok then they need to bring in single car teams. In the old days a team mate could be told to give his car to the no 1 driver.

smellslikeshoes

It's not like any of the other teams couldn't have done the same, for that reason I don't think it's necessary to change the number of penalty grid places.
The circumstances needed for it to occur again are also quite rare.

donspeekinglesh

It's a team sport. Absolutely nothing wrong with it.
I consider what Red Bull did in Abu Dhabi 'worse' - taking Vettel's car out of parc ferme.

maroondog

Blatantly using such a rule to their advantage really isn't in the spirit of sportsmanship but as we all know most teams will doing anything to get an edge. Not a fan of such use of loop holes but have to admit its clever use of rules by Ferrari. I can see this rule being tightened up, intentionally invoking this rule and admitting so is really laughing in the face of F1 authorities. I'm sure other teams will be on to F1 rule makers to review such rules and avoid repeats of this.

Kevski

maroondog wrote: »

Blatantly using such a rule to their advantage really isn't in the spirit of sportsmanship but as we all know most teams will doing anything to get an edge. Not a fan of such use of loop holes but have to admit its clever use of rules by Ferrari. I can see this rule being tightened up, intentionally invoking this rule and admitting so is really laughing in the face of F1 authorities. I'm sure other teams will be on to F1 rule makers to review such rules and avoid repeats of this.

There won't be any changes. Ferrari broke a rule and were punished for it. The fact that the punishment benefited Alonso is irrelevant. All of the rules in F1 are pushed to the limit as that's the only way to gain an advantage. It's not the first time that it's been done and to be honest, boundary pushing decisions like that and Silverston '98 are part of the reason why I love F1.

Corholio

I think there's a difference between boundary pushing and this to be honest. They broke a rule on purpose because it happened that it would benefit one of their other drivers. IMO, it's sportsmanship, even in somewhere like F1. Penalties should never be able to be used as tactics and should never benefit the same team that was penalised. I'm not sure something like this can be compared to other sports though, I don't know of too many scenario's that's comparable.

jordainius

What they did was 100% within the rules so from that perspective it was 100% fine.

To be honest, I think these grid penalties for gearbox and engine changes are ridiculous, so I'm happy to see those rules being ridiculed somewhat.

It was quite "unsportsmanlike" though, I would have been delighted to see Red Bull respond in kind by doing the same with Webber to but Alonso back on the dirty side. Even though that would have been somewhat of a farce!

What they did was fine today, no rules broken, but I hope the FIA close that loophole. (Though I'd prefer if they just removed those particular grid penalties altogether.)


Also; I'd just like to add- I've heard the "It's a team sport" line used here and elsewhere, Renault could have used that defence for the 2008 Signapore Grand Prix, there are similarities between today and Piquets staged crash; driver 2 gets sacrificed to benefit Alonso. Obvioulsly staging a crash is insanity compared to what Ferrari did today so I'm not saying they're the same, and Ferrari were very up front about what they were doing while Renault tried to conceal their actions. But, there are parallels between both incidents and I believe its an interesting comparison.

Darkglasses

I knew I'd be the only one :rolleyes:

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but motor racing isn't this gentleman's sport you think it is. Some of things that go on at all levels of motorsport isn't particularly nice. I have seen some awful things at grass routes level and that's when there is no prize money. I can only imagine what we don't see at F1 level!

Do not mis-understand, I didn't think it was out of character for F1! I do watch it every week, I'm well aware that bull**** like this goes on frequently, like only last week Vettel in Abu Dhabi and so on. However, I personally regard it as a new low.

Corholio

Using the rules to your advantage, breaking a drivers car to give advantage, to another is a low. I don't care if it 'goes on' or if another team would do it. The point is Ferrari blatantly and shamelessly did it and it goes against the principle of rules and any ounce of respect to the sport.

Myrddin

I vote yes, the drivers race for the team, not the other way around. Its sometimes what you have to do, to give a driver the maximum possible chance to achieve what he can. I pitied Massa, but I'm sure he'll wake up today feeling grand when he goes & checks his bank balance

iDave

I'm ok with it. I consider Austria 2002 and Singpore 08 to be much worse

H3llR4iser

As a matter of fact there is, in spirit, no difference between this and the Piquet scandal in Singapore. In both cases, it was about asking one of your drivers to do or accept something that it's outside of the rules and, most importantly, outside of the spirit of sportsmanship.

Also, in both cases it benefited Alonso - wonder if it's him having these glorious ideas. Very likely, if you ask me (see Withmarsh's comments).

It's a move that disregards and shows no respect for Formula 1, the other competitors and the public; This coming from the team that has the "holier than thou" attitude, thinks that backmarkers should not be allowed to compete and deems F1 to be nothing without them. What shocks me is the teams that had drivers behind Massa and on the clean part of the track not protesting in the least.

I wonder what will have happened if it was Red Bull or McLaren doing the same: I can see Ferrari's "holier than thou" zealots waving the rulebook, tearing their clothes shouting and crying.

From another point of view, that is a real shot in the foot for a race in the US - the average American fan does not enjoy this kind of mockery and it does nothing to endear a sport that they really struggle to grasp.

Of course the whole thing has been allowed to happen by Bernie since it will bring the World Championship down to the line in Brazil; Undeservedly, because a driver/car combination that gets to the line 30 seconds behind their direct competitor in the decisive race means that they're nowhere near the required performance level and only are in a position to still win the title because of a silly play of destiny.

steve_r

I voted no.

It's a tricky one, they've obeyed the wording of the rules but not the spirit of the rules.

It is a team based sport, but this particular action could have an impact on the individual championship.

If Seb loses out by a point or 2, I would feel bad for him for this, becuase I don't think that extra benifit that Alonso got was really "earned" by him. "earned" is subjective in the first place so this is really just from my own point of view.

I can understand why people voted yes, and I think that it was the right call for the team themselves, but I think the rules need to be changed.

It's not so much about sportsmanship for me as it is about the rules being fair on everyone.

Myrddin

It could be worse

brownacid

Do the people who happen to be against this because it flies in the face of the spirit of the rules happen to be red bull fans? RBR have come out numerous times this season saying that there is no such thing as the spirit of the rules, only the rules as they are written. As such the RBR car has lived in a grey area all season long, everyone knows that it is against what the rules intended but there is nothing that can be done as the wording is still too vague.

Darkglasses

brownacid wrote: »

Do the people who happen to be against this because it flies in the face of the spirit of the rules happen to be red bull fans? RBR have come out numerous times this season saying that there is no such thing as the spirit of the rules, only the rules as they are written. As such the RBR car has lived in a grey area all season long, everyone knows that it is against what the rules intended but there is nothing that can be done as the wording is still too vague.

Not me, i'm a Force India fan first of all, and was hoping Alonso would win over Vettel.

Frank Bullitt

Perfectly acceptable, and a fine move on the strategy side of things.

jordainius

brownacid wrote: »

Do the people who happen to be against this because it flies in the face of the spirit of the rules happen to be red bull fans?

Very stupid question in my opinion. I follow F1 as a neutral, and as such I want to see a competetive championship which goes down to the wire. So by the logic of the question you ask; I should be thrilled at Ferrari's actions as it gives Alonso a fighting chance. (Only way he'll win is if Vettel has a mechanical failure or is taken out, Vettel is going to stroll to a third straight title otherwise.)

If anything, I'm becoming slightly anti-Red Bull, as I'm fed up of their domination which is showing no sign of coming to an end any time soon.

earlyapex

To me it was no different than what Redbull did to Vettel's car in Abu Dhabi.

Nothing was wrong with his car there but they changed the rules to allow him to be faster in the race, which is not what the pitlane starting option was meant for. It was meant to allow a car to be repaired so it can participate in the race. In the spirit of the rules would have meant starting there unchanged or starting 24th, unchanged. They took advantage and got Vettel 15 points.

For Massa, breaking the gearbox seal allowed both Ferrari drivers to be faster in the race, starting from the clean side, not getting held up in the pack so much.
They took advantage of the rules too.

Both teams have benefitted from the rules, ignoring the "spirit" of them.

Grim.

brownacid wrote: »

Do the people who happen to be against this because it flies in the face of the spirit of the rules happen to be red bull fans?

well im a Red Bull fan and i voted yes, all is fair in love and war.


i did feel sorry for massa ****ed over by his team once again (yes i know its a team sport and alonso needed to be ahead of him but you know what i mean)

Frank Bullitt

There is no such thing as "The spirit of the rules".

jordainius

Gintonious wrote: »

There is no such thing as "The spirit of the rules".

Of course there is! The rule was designed to punish (not reward) teams for changing gearboxes/engines (or breaking the FIA seal). The rule was not designed to give the team an advantage, so in that respect Ferrari undoubtedly did not keep within "the spirit of the rules".

It matters little however as at the end of the day; rule was broken and punishment was applied as per the rules. And I would applaud Ferrari for being up front about what they were doing instead of making up some bull**** reason.

I understand why people are defending Ferrari, and they're right. But I really think the FIA need to amend the rules to stop it happening again. The teams can't really be blamed for exploiting loopholes in the rules. Its up to the powers that be to make the rules as watertight as possible.

ScumLord

I don't think there was anything wrong with it given the circumstances, penultimate race, championship on the line and all the money that goes with it. Massa had little to lose in the grand scheme of things compared to Alonso.

If it was the start of the season I'd feel like they where hurting Massa and the sport but this was a good team decision. I think they have to be able to act like a team or there's no point in having two drivers out there.

Corholio

I think the fact they were up front with it makes it even worse IMO. It was like "we damaged one of our own cars to give one of our own drivers an advantage, deal with it" kinda way. The FIA should of course amend the rules so this doesn't happen, but I think Ferrari went about it like this was a bit of a low in fairness. Because someone else does it before doesn't make it any less sad to see in the sport. Not a Red Bull fan at all, actually more on the Ferrari side.

Kevski

Kevski wrote: »

I still don't understand how they got away with that one since he didn't actually serve his punishment til after the chequered flag. Though we should probably try to not start discussing that on this thread. :pac:

H3llR4iser

Deleted User wrote: »

I still don't understand how they got away with that one since he didn't actually serve his punishment til after the chequered flag. Though we should probably try to not start discussing that on this thread. :pac:

That's easy: their name is Ferrari.

brownacid

jordainius wrote: »

Very stupid question in my opinion. I follow F1 as a neutral, and as such I want to see a competetive championship which goes down to the wire. So by the logic of the question you ask; I should be thrilled at Ferrari's actions as it gives Alonso a fighting chance. (Only way he'll win is if Vettel has a mechanical failure or is taken out, Vettel is going to stroll to a third straight title otherwise.)

If anything, I'm becoming slightly anti-Red Bull, as I'm fed up of their domination which is showing no sign of coming to an end any time soon.

That's not what I meant to put across at all. My point was that all season people have been saying that red bull were going against the spirit of the rules, Horner, et al. have come out saying that there is no such thing as the spirit of the rules only as the rules were written. My question was aimed at the people saying that the ferrari move was against the "spirit of the rules", I wanted to see if RBR fans were hypocritically calling something against teh spirit of the rules.

I am a Alonso fan, not a fan of Ferrari (Still haven't gotten over their dominance from the last decade). I'm happy that it has come down to the wire but I do feel for the drivers that were shoved to the dirty side of the grid. That being said, all's fair in love and war (so long as you stay within the rules). Alonse is going into the race on Sunday in the same position that Vettel was 3 years ago and Vettel came out on top. If Alonso wins and Vettel comes 5th or less Alonso wins, that situation is perfectly capable of happing, especially if it's raining next week.

donspeekinglesh

Buttonftw wrote: »

I still don't understand how they got away with that one since he didn't actually serve his punishment til after the chequered flag. Though we should probably try to not start discussing that on this thread. :pac:

The stewards made a complete mess of issuing the penalty, and it wasn't valid.

Daniel S

Put simply:

Legal: Yes.
Acceptable: Yes.
Expected from Ferrari: Yes.
Sporting? No.

repsol

Ferrari have better brains on their payroll than the rule makers.You have to admire their creativity! All this "spirit" talk is rubbish.Rules are printed in black and white.There is no grey! I don't support teams ,I support drivers.I started following Senna, now I am a Schumacher fan.When he goes,I don't care who wins.The current rules have spoiled the sport with DRS and KERS.

frostie500

No issue whatsoever with this. F1 is a team sport and this gave the team the best chance of Alonso scoring the most points and therefore winning the title. As Gintonious said there is no spirit to the regs just the rules.

Autosport

Ah its just Ferrari showing us that they can do what they like just like Redbull, dont like it and voted no

Cookie_Monster

so why did RB not open Webbers and get him moved back putting Alonso back on the wrong side? Or would it just have moved him up too much for comfort?

ScumLord

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so why did RB not open Webbers and get him moved back putting Alonso back on the wrong side? Or would it just have moved him up too much for comfort?

I don't think Webber would do something like that.

donspeekinglesh

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so why did RB not open Webbers and get him moved back putting Alonso back on the wrong side? Or would it just have moved him up too much for comfort?

While Ferrari said what they were going to do, they left out until the very last minute to do it. So if Red Bull were going to do the same they had time to change their mind.

Cookie_Monster

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think Webber would do something like that.

It wouldn't be his call. And I can't see RB having an issue, they've been operating a car on / over the edge of the law for the last 3 seasons. Clearly "spirit of the law" etc is not an issue for them

paddy147

I wonder if Massa would have been so "open" with his comments if he was still to get a deal with Ferrari for next year???:pac::pac::D


Sorry but with regards sportsmanship and fairness,Ferrari realy fcuked Massa over..again.

I really do feel for Massa,especially when he came in 4th,right behind Alonso


That should have been Massa,s podium spot.

paddy147

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so why did RB not open Webbers and get him moved back putting Alonso back on the wrong side? Or would it just have moved him up too much for comfort?

Because RB want to win the fair way..
Deal with the cards you are dealt with and let the drivers battle it out in a fair sporting contest.:)

EvilMonkey

paddy147 wrote: »

I wonder if Massa would have been so "open" with his comments if he was still to get a deal with Ferrari for next year???:pac::pac::D


Sorry but with regards sportsmanship and fairness,Ferrari realy fcuked Massa over..again.

I really do feel for Massa,especially when he came in 4th,right behind Alonso


That should have been Massa,s podium spot.

Not really because he would still have to give it up to Alonso who is still in the championship anyway. Just like he will if he dose one of his Brazil master classes again next race, and just like he had to do it for Kimi, and Kimi had to do it for him. People seem to be forgetting F1 is a team sport and team tactics play a big part in deciding championships

paddy147 wrote: »

Because RB want to win the fair way..

:pac:

Peanut Butter Jelly

In terms of the rules, perfectly ok.
In terms of sportingness, perfectly NOT ok.

But lets be honest, The real question is, was it a clever idea to exploit the loopholes, or a desperate move in the hope of remaining in the championship?

paddy147

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Please tell me you said this as a joke! RBR are almost as bad as Ferrari for sneaky underhanded tactics!

Alonzo gained a place on the starting grid.

Vettel went way way backwards (last place) 2 races ago.

ScumLord

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It wouldn't be his call.

It might depend on his contract. Massa is clearly the second driver but didn't red bull make a big deal out of saying they're drivers are equal? That would lead me to believe it says so in the contract and they can't force Webber to play second fiddle to Vettle without breaking the contract.

Ed Winchester

In the penultimate race of the season when Webber has no title to play for, I think RB would consider Webber as a number 2.

stevenmu

I would not want to be the person telling Webber that they were giving him a grid penalty just to benefit Vettel. Not without a good helmet and body armour.

the culture of deference

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Are you new to the sport?Just look at some of things RBR have done in the past. There flexi wings is just one to mention. If your in Formula one for any extended time you will realise that you have to sometimes do some slight rule bending from time time.

Red Bull's Illegal Wheel Hub Explained SKY

And this
Red Bull boss Christian Horner denies team has made illegal parc ferme changes



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101572

FIA declare Red Bull car illegal and floor must be modified before Canadian GP


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-2153762/FIA-declare-Red-Bull-car-illegal-changes-Canada-GP.html

German GP: Red Bull cleared of illegal engine mapping


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18943608

And whatever happens next this will be the outcome.


"While the stewards do not accept all the arguments of the team, they however conclude that as the regulation is written the map presented does not breach article (insert article number here) of the technical regulations," the statement said.
In effect, the stewards say the rules are not written clearly enough.
The likely result will be that the FIA will issue a clarification of the rules in the near future. It is not known whether this will be in time for next weekend's (insert GP name here) Grand Prix.[/QUOTE]

paddy147

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Are you new to the sport?Just look at some of things RBR have done in the past. There flexi wings is just one to mention. If your in Formula one for any extended time you will realise that you have to sometimes do some slight rule bending from time time.

Is that the fancy wing they took off Webber and give to Vettel.

And Webber still won the race with the old wing??;)

Myrddin

paddy147 wrote: »

Is that the fancy wing they took off Webber and give to Vettel.

And Webber still won the race with the old wing??;)

No, its this one. The one that the FIA can't test properly yet

paddy147

I wonder will Ferrari whinge on and on if Red Bull were to pull the same stunt in Brazil for Vettel that Ferrari did in the USA for Alonso.

Ferrari



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