push ups?

Jordan5372

Hi,

about 2 months ago i started doing pushups daily, at first i struggled to do ten, it exhausted me.

I can now do 27, which is my max, which i did today.

i did 23 push ups non stop, then 1 minute rest and 4 more.

Will i have gotten much stronger?

i don't see much change? will i eventually see change?

Thanks in advance.

Chancer3001

the day I read Bryan Robsons autobiography where he said he did 1000 push ups every day (and then I saw the picture section of him with his top off) was the day I decided to never do another push up ever again.

Jordan5372

lol, why what was it like ?

Chancer3001

Like a guy who does a lot of running and lifts zero weights. Sleek.

d'Oracle

Chancer3001 wrote: »

the day I read Bryan Robsons autobiography where he said he did 1000 push ups every day (and then I saw the picture section of him with his top off) was the day I decided to never do another push up ever again.

Bit of a severe reaction there.

PTC Frankston

I dont think it was severe

If I'm asked whats better, running or lifting weights, I have the asker buy a copy of Runners World and Flex magazine, look at the pics and decide what you want to look like.

If 1000 push ups leaves you looking like crap, stop at 27 and go lift something heavy

im invisible

PTC Frankston wrote: »

I dont think it was severe

If I'm asked whats better, running or lifting weights, I have the asker buy a copy of Runners World and Flex magazine, look at the pics and decide what you want to look like.

something in the middle, no, something more on the running side, would be fine for most
google image search first (male) runners world image big pic

flex magazine first 3 images, (first seems to be the odd one out out of all the images)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/10/Flex_magazine_Nov07.jpg/220px-Flex_magazine_Nov07.jpg
this one, and
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2006/flex_sep06cover.jpg

Edwardius

im invisible wrote: »

something in the middle, no, something more on the running side, would be fine for most
google image search first (male) runners world image big pic

flex magazine first 3 images, (first seems to be the odd one out out of all the images)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/10/Flex_magazine_Nov07.jpg/220px-Flex_magazine_Nov07.jpg
this one, and
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2006/flex_sep06cover.jpg

It doesn't work like that. For the average human there isn't a continuum from "runners world picture"<

---

>"Flex picture" where "weights" is the sole variable. At least one of those flex pictures is a Mr. Olympia, which is unattainable at the recreational level. I'm not sure if that's what you intended to say.

Anyway, Pushups: at 20 odd reps you're not really getting stronger anymore as opposed to building muscular endurance, 1000 is a waste of time for strength gains. If your goal is to increase your pushup numbers then take half your max, and do that for about 5-7 sets throughout the day every day for a month and retest your max, stay away from failure. If you want to get stronger you need to add weight so that 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps (ballpark) is challenging.

sbsquarepants

Jordan5372 wrote: »

Hi,

about 2 months ago i started doing pushups daily, at first i struggled to do ten, it exhausted me.

I can now do 27, which is my max, which i did today.

You've answered your own question there - in two months you've roughly trebled the amount you're able to do, of course you've gotten stronger. Push ups will of course make you stronger, much stronger in time, what they won't really do is build you up like lifting weights will, so it's a matter of what you're after. If you're looking for bulging biceps, you're barking up the wrong tree, if you're looking just to generally improve your upper body strength then push ups will certainly do that.

rubadub

Chancer3001 wrote: »

the day I read Bryan Robsons autobiography where he said he did 1000 push ups every day (and then I saw the picture section of him with his top off) was the day I decided to never do another push up ever again.

If it was Herschel Walker's Bio you might still be doing them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker#Training_and_diet

Instead of lifting weights, he has a daily regimen of 3,500 sit-ups, 1,000 push-ups and eight mile runs. He has been going through this same routine since high school.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&tok=TKWXzv3LXMGW_jgSqiLtsg&cp=15&gs_id=2w&xhr=t&q=herschel+walker&safe=off&complete=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=38625945&biw=1540&bih=819&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=sQKqUKmnO4qZhQe3moHYB

There are loads of pushup variants to make them harder, I would be more interested in finding variations which limit you back down to 10 reps. Loads of examples on youtube.

d'Oracle

PTC Frankston wrote: »

I dont think it was severe

If I'm asked whats better, running or lifting weights, I have the asker buy a copy of Runners World and Flex magazine, look at the pics and decide what you want to look like.

If 1000 push ups leaves you looking like crap, stop at 27 and go lift something heavy

Well no, it is a severe reaction.

He said he never did pushups again cos he saw a guy who claimed to do a thousand a day and didn't like what he saw.
He didn't say he decided against doing high volume pushups in favour of an exercise regimen more suited to his aesthetic goals, he said "never do another pushup ever again".

There is a guy in my gym who is forever doing pushups.
He looks better than 90% of guys in the gym, the dude is jacked. Course he also does things like Dips, strict muscle-ups, heavy chins, deadlifts etc, but he also does pushups and manages to not look like Roy of the Rovers or whoever the **** Chancer was talking about.

And just to cover all the bases, generally speaking, throwing perfectly good exercises because someone who you don't think looks good does them is retarded. I don't think Andy Bolton looks good, does that mean stop deadlifting?

PTC Frankston

Not if your goal is a big deadlift

Push ups are over rated, sure if you have zero access to barbells because you live in an igloo in Alaska, do push ups

But a simple barbell has built more muscle than any other calisthenic, machine, pulley or any other apparatus you care to name.

If your 12 and mum wont get you a BB set or a gym membership, go to the park and do chins and dips, but any exercise where you can do 1000 reps isnt going to do much for you in regards to strength, which was the original posters question

Remember I work in a field where clients come to get stronger, so my response will always lean that way

I dont wish to offend anyone that thinks doing push ups will make them stronger, its just my opinion

d'Oracle

PTC Frankston wrote: »

Not if your goal is a big deadlift

Push ups are over rated, sure if you have zero access to barbells because you live in an igloo in Alaska, do push ups

But a simple barbell has built more muscle than any other calisthenic, machine, pulley or any other apparatus you care to name.

If your 12 and mum wont get you a BB set or a gym membership, go to the park and do chins and dips, but any exercise where you can do 1000 reps isnt going to do much for you in regards to strength, which was the original posters question

Remember I work in a field where clients come to get stronger, so my response will always lean that way

I dont wish to offend anyone that thinks doing push ups will make them stronger, its just my opinion

You aren't offending anybody chief, we are just chatting here.

I challenged broken logic.
Like looking at a guy who played professional soccer, (an endurance sport where the measure of upper body strength is widely considered to be not falling over) and claims to do a **** load of a single exercise then discerning that this is a reason to not use the given exercise. Ever.

You can still achieve the goal of not looking like Bryan Robson when you take off your shirt while using pushups as part of your routine.


There are literally loads of reasons why one might use pushups outside of improving max strength. Much of them applying to much more than 12 year olds.


How many pushups can you do? I'm betting 27 would be a cakewalk for you.
But for someone who cant do 30 ..... you don't think they should learn to walk before they can bench press?
And I don't even disagree, OP probably should be looking at harder exercises if he wants to get stronger.

Chancer3001

the benefits of doing push ups (in a strength gaining capacity) is so little that they are not worth doing.

In the time it takes to do 100 push ups, you can achieve better strength result by doing almost any other exercise that involves weights!

OP never actually mentioned a goal though.

d'Oracle

Chancer3001 wrote: »

the benefits of doing push ups (in a strength gaining capacity) is so little that they are not worth doing.

In the time it takes to do 100 push ups, you can achieve better strength result by doing almost any other exercise that involves weights!

OP never actually mentioned a goal though.

Well he did ask if he would have gotten much stronger.

rubadub

PTC Frankston wrote: »

but any exercise where you can do 1000 reps isnt going to do much for you in regards to strength, which was the original posters question

as above, his question was has he gotten stronger after gong from 10 pushups to 27 in 2 months.

I doubt Robson or Herschel Walker were doing 1000 in one set. I used to be able to bang out 70+ quick "competition" pushups. If I do them slow & controlled, chest to the ground I can only manage about 16 'proper pushups' (I can do more ring dips than pushups if you want some level of comparison).

So at what number of reps do you think an exercise becomes useless for strength training? and have you seen any studies about it? and how do you define "much stronger" or strength? is it just your 1RM or what?

Chancer3001 wrote: »

the benefits of doing push ups (in a strength gaining capacity) is so little that they are not worth doing.

There are loads of variations to increase resistance though.

rubadub

http://transformetrics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11011

In reading Hershel Walker's Basic Training, he stated that he did his sets of strict, full range pushups in sets of 25. He also didn't fight to rush his sets of pushups. He'd watch TV and do sets between commercials.

http://transformetrics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8265

He'd do them in sets of 25 until he'd done 300. Every day. He continued this on into his college years. He also put up a chin bar behind his house. He'd pullup. He'd chin, He'd do close grips. He'd pullup some more. Nothing fancy - just doing it, rest, and do it again. For most of his pushups his form was fairly strict. However, when he got into doing more than 300, he'd do 150 in one continuous set, but only did them from halfway.

I'd generally work them like this. I started with my hands shoulder-width apart and I'd go down only halfway before pushing back up again. I'd do these as fast as I could, till I could feel my triceps burning and I was breathing really hard. Then I'd rest for a bit. These half pushups really helped my endurance and I knew they made my triceps bigger, too, since the the triceps are kept under constant tension . I'd generally do about 150 of these, and then do 10-20 reps with some harder type , say with my feet elevated, or hands real close together. Then I'd go back to the half pushups for a few more quick ones, then I'd do some slower, full pushups where I'd touch my nose to the floor. These helped to build my power. After resting a bit, then I'd do my handstand pushups. I generally do these in sets of 10, resting between each set.

Page 31 - Basic Training, Revised Edition

PTC Frankston

I can curl a 2kg DB for days, it wont do anything for my strength

Why on earth is this still being discussed?

Does anyone here really not think a progressive resistance weight program is the best way to get stronger?

If someone cant get a few bucks together for either a BB set or a gym membership he's not serious about getting stronger

doh777

Do them .... s l o w l y.

d'Oracle

PTC Frankston wrote: »

Why on earth is this still being discussed?

Does anyone here really not think a progressive resistance weight program is the best way to get stronger?

Who said it wasn't?

Also, ever heard of Gymnastics?

PTC Frankston

Better than a progressive resistance program?

d'Oracle

PTC Frankston wrote: »

Better than a progressive resistance program?

Look, I can already I can tell you aren't gonna read any response I write cos you have been so committed to not actually reading other peoples responses, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

In many cases yes.
Many people could benefit greatly from using well chosen bodyweight exercises. You can vary the intensity bodyweight exercises quite easily by changing body positions, grip positions or using external variables like suspension or bands.

A guy who can do 27 pushups usually can't do a 1 arm pushup on a ring. This is because he is not strong enough. A guy who can't do a push up or a dip can't do strict muscle-ups. Because he is not strong enough. A guy who starts not being able to do 27 pushups and not being able to do a pullup and finishes up being able to do multiple strict muscleups and 50 pushups at a breeze has gotten stronger.

I recognise that you are a powerlifting guy and you believe that strength that can't be demonstrated with a barbell isn't strength or whatever. But saying that someone has to be in a gym to be serious about getting stronger......its not your response being coloured by your career, its just bollox. Particularly in the context of a fella who can't do 50 pushups.

PTC Frankston

I do read every response, and I respect everyones opinion

But in my gym I get paid for the BEST advice, not general advice, they dont need to come to my gym for that

I suppose I'm similar on forums

And I'm not a PL guy. We had 2 lifters go to Weightlifting Worlds Masters in Ukraine for 2 bronze

I got an Aussie kid a full scholorship in the US as a defensive linesman at college

We have a kid that had a try out with Derby County and a few other clubs in the UK

Lots of fighters, footballers (I was strength coach for a VFL club for a year) basketballers

PTC is a strength gym, not a powerlifting gym

So I suppose when I give my opinion, I tend to give the best advice I can

Maybe I need to tone that down on here

d'Oracle

PTC Frankston wrote: »

I do read every response, and I respect everyones opinion

But in my gym I get paid for the BEST advice, not general advice, they dont need to come to my gym for that

I suppose I'm similar on forums

And I'm not a PL guy. We had 2 lifters go to Weightlifting Worlds Masters in Ukraine for 2 bronze

I got an Aussie kid a full scholorship in the US as a defensive linesman at college

We have a kid that had a try out with Derby County and a few other clubs in the UK

Lots of fighters, footballers (I was strength coach for a VFL club for a year) basketballers

PTC is a strength gym, not a powerlifting gym

Awesome. I apologise for making such a reductionist comment.

PTC Frankston wrote: »

So I suppose when I give my opinion, I tend to give the best advice I can

Maybe I need to tone that down on here

NOBODY tones done their opinions round here.
It would be be a very boring forum indeed if people didn't argue about little stuff like this.

And the reason I implied that your weren't reading, was because I pretty much never said that weight training wasn't the best way to get strong.
I just disagree that pushups are of no use in general.

rubadub

PTC Frankston wrote: »

I can curl a 2kg DB for days, it wont do anything for my strength

Do you honestly think the reps you can do with a 2kg dumbbell is equivalent to your pushup ability, or the OPs pushup ability? If not then its an unfair comparison, so please stick to sensible & fair ones.

Last night I managed 18 strict pushups, 15 ring dips & 12 wide pullups (not directly related but give people some idea). For me to compare the resistance I experience with pushups to a 2kg dumbbell would be ridiculous. It would be more comparable to quarter ROM granny pushups done against a wall at a very slight angle.

This is why people are mentioning variations and doing them strictly/properly.

PTC Frankston wrote: »

Better than a progressive resistance program?

Any gymnastic workout plans I have ever seen are exactly that! progressive resistance programs. There are many variations of pushups, ring dips, chinups etc that I am nowhere near capable of doing. On a gymnastic site I look at the owner/coach trains his guys with 2-3sets, 3-5reps, once capable of over 5reps they advance to a more difficult variation -sounds familiar. For some exercise they do add resistance in the form of a weighted vest, but this is only for very advanced guys who are capable of the hardest of variations of exercises.

Back to the OP

Jordan5372 wrote: »

Will i have gotten much stronger?

i don't see much change? will i eventually see change?

If you have gone from 10 to 27 then to me by definition it me means you have got stronger. But it might not agree with other peoples definition of strength, esp. in a forum like this where most would define it as the maximum you can lift for 1 repetition.

So you have seen a change, in the amount you can do. But reading it again I an guessing by "change" you were referring to muscle growth as the change. It takes a time to build muscle and since it is gradual it goes even more unnoticed on yourself, like a child growing up in your own house Vs another child you might see once a year who appears to have shot up.

I was asking for a definition of strength and if any studies were done with high reps to demonstrate how apparently useless they are.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12436270

Thirty-two untrained men [mean (SD) age 22.5 (5.8) years, height 178.3 (7.2) cm, body mass 77.8 (11.9) kg] participated in an 8-week progressive resistance-training program to investigate the "strength-endurance continuum". Subjects were divided into four groups: a low repetition group (Low Rep, n = 9) performing 3-5 repetitions maximum (RM) for four sets of each exercise with 3 min rest between sets and exercises, an intermediate repetition group (Int Rep, n = 11) performing 9-11 RM for three sets with 2 min rest, a high repetition group (High Rep, n = 7) performing 20-28 RM for two sets with 1 min rest, and a non-exercising control group (Con, n = 5). Three exercises (leg press, squat, and knee extension) were performed 2 days/week for the first 4 weeks and 3 days/week for the final 4 weeks. Maximal strength [one repetition maximum, 1RM), local muscular endurance (maximal number of repetitions performed with 60% of 1RM), and various cardiorespiratory parameters (e.g., maximum oxygen consumption, pulmonary ventilation, maximal aerobic power, time to exhaustion) were assessed at the beginning and end of the study. In addition, pre- and post-training muscle biopsy samples were analyzed for fiber-type composition, cross-sectional area, myosin heavy chain (MHC) content, and capillarization. Maximal strength improved significantly more for the Low Rep group compared to the other training groups, and the maximal number of repetitions at 60% 1RM improved the most for the High Rep group. In addition, maximal aerobic power and time to exhaustion significantly increased at the end of the study for only the High Rep group. All three major fiber types (types I, IIA, and IIB) hypertrophied for the Low Rep and Int Rep groups, whereas no significant increases were demonstrated for either the High Rep or Con groups. However, the percentage of type IIB fibers decreased, with a concomitant increase in IIAB fibers for all three resistance-trained groups. These fiber-type conversions were supported by a significant decrease in MHCIIb accompanied by a significant increase in MHCIIa. No significant changes in fiber-type composition were found in the control samples. Although all three training regimens resulted in similar fiber-type transformations (IIB to IIA), the low to intermediate repetition resistance-training programs induced a greater hypertrophic effect compared to the high repetition regimen. The High Rep group, however, appeared better adapted for submaximal, prolonged contractions, with significant increases after training in aerobic power and time to exhaustion. Thus, low and intermediate RM training appears to induce similar muscular adaptations, at least after short-term training in previously untrained subjects. Overall, however, these data demonstrate that both physical performance and the associated physiological adaptations are linked to the intensity and number of repetitions performed, and thus lend support to the "strength-endurance continuum".

So to most people in this forum the bit in bold would say the lower rep got 'stronger'. But I know people who would say the high rep routine guys got 'stronger', guys who couldn't care less about the max I could lift but would be impressed if I could help them move house & lug around a load of boxes (high reps, submaxial weight).

The study also says better hypertropic effect for low-mid reps, which is no surprise. And since the OP could be more interested in muscle growth then low reps might be better, -which is easily achieved with different pushups to vary the resistance experienced, esp. for beginners.

I would also recommend weights too, I use a combination myself.

Mellor

PTC Frankston wrote: »

Does anyone here really not think a progressive resistance weight program is the best way to get stronger?

PTC Frankston wrote:

Better than a progressive resistance program?

I think a progressive resistance program is the best way to get stronger. Definitely. Push-ups are a form of resistance training. They can be varied to make them progressively harder.

Nobody is saying that pushups are the best way, that's ridiculous.
But its equally ridiculous to say "never do a push or you'll end up looking like Bryan Robson with his top off".

Personally I use bodyweight and barbells in my training. Both for different purposes.