How to stop doing freebies?

angeleyes

I know this is a bone of contention for many photographers starting out.

In my case, I am asked to come and photograph local parish events - which I do. I have given prints to people - for example this summer - photographed a local fun day, I gave out prints - got the usual from a few "oh why did you take that - I look desperate" I captured people having fun - and it was reflected in the shots. Just one person said "thank you and what do I owe you?" Of course I said its fine as I was surprised (pleasantly) at least getting a thank you. It seems when freebies are wanted - I get the call but then if there is a paying gig (in this case its a Santa shot_- they bring in someone else in the area who I know for a fact shoots in auto and seeing his work I can see why. The reason given - he had always done it before.

Last year the parish did a local calendar - I gave them seven of my images - "auto guy" had 1. Its nice to be nice and 99.9% of the time I am. However, is there ever a good way to say "hey no more freebies" or is it just a case of saying "No" - the 0.01% of me would add another two words the second being off but that wouldn't be nice now would it?

akaspike

Angeleyes, you say - I am asked to come and photograph local parish events. Your being used. Fullstop. If you don't mind going, then give them the jpeg and move on. Why be out money on printing.
Tell them that your busy and photograph something you want, not what your falling into.What Would Brian Boitano Do?

sineadw

As my mam says, work for free and you'll never go idle. Next time maybe explain to them that the work is wear and tear on your equipment, and that since others are given fair reimbursement for their time you think you'll have to do the same. Be honest. Say you don't mind helping, but the current situation is unfeasible.

When you do things for free, people will never see the value in them. It's an unfortunate fact of life.

seamus

If it helps, this isn't just an issue for freelance photographers, all sorts of people come up against the same issue when they freelance in their line of business (with me, it's IT - "Would you mind just taking a quick look at my computer").

Usually what happens is that they think you're doing it as a hobby and you don't expect payment. Instead if you tell them the cost upfront (i.e. when they ask you to come along), at least then there are no crossed wires. If they act surprised that you're looking for payment, you can just tell them that you've started it as a business (even if that's not true), and they can't begrudge you some payment then.

thebouldwhacker

Local events are ruled by local politics so just be wide how you communicate your feelings.
If I may be so bold to suggest that when next asked weigh up what it is you are being asked to do. If its a few snaps then jpeg is the way to go. If its some thing with a bit more skill and artistic flare you could offer the 'few snaps' as usual or suggest that if you charged a fee you could give a better service.
Chances are they will want snaps and not have a budget to pay but they will know for the next event that you are for hire. Of course there is a great possibility that the other guy is the default photographer and they will say 'he won't do it for free any more, who was that other person who contacted us offering a free service to build up their portfolio'.

That's why you gotta be delicate, don't say that your charging from now on, rather that the basic snaps are free as usual because you love serving your community but that you can now offer them a superior product which they can buy from you.
In the mean time suggest getting a mention when your pics are used that you are the photographer and are available to the public for paid jobs.
Hope this helps.

mdebets

While I normally would agree with the above answers, I would see it slightly different in the case of your local parish.
Are you normally involved in your local parish. Would you volunteer at these events, if you wouldn't shoot them?
If you would, you should see your photos as another form of volunteering. All parishes I know can use all the money they can get and only full time employees are actually paid, everyone else does unpaid volunteer work.

sineadw

I agree- it's good for the soul to help out. When you're being used and not appreciated though it can be the worst feeling. And I don't think you should wear kid gloves and tiptoe around the issue. Work out what you're happy doing and stick with that.

angeleyes

sineadw wrote: »

When you do things for free, people will never see the value in them. It's an unfortunate fact of life.

Some great advice everyone, and sinead - very wise words indeed. I think the more you do the more is expected. I am on the committee and have done my share of volunteering but it would have been nice to be considered when the paying gig i.e Santa shoot was offered. Yes I agree it is good to volunteer but it shows a lack of respect to me too. 2013 new year resolution - no more freebies and learn to say "no".

thebouldwhacker

I would like to add that volunteering is close to my heart and is the life blood of all community work. A rainbow of individuas are required to work together, some without proper awareness (rather than appreciation) on the part of others.
People who have admin skills for example are often the enabling force which allow groups to operate but I have never heard of one being paid if they are on a committees etc.
My point being that these people often have highly developed skills, equipment and abilities which are drawn on without a seconds thought... See the similarity?

I recognise that in this case the issue is complicated because another person is getting paid to do similar work even though you work to a higher standard.
If you believe that your work deserves payment then perhaps you could ask to put it on the agenda at the next Meeting you attend and have the issue discussed in an up front way with a view to coming to an understanding which suits all.

angeleyes

Volunteering is close to my heart too thebouldwhacker, in 2010 I was a volunteer photographer with Special Olympics Ireland in Limerick and recently have been invited back to do the same for 2014 as S.O.I is making a welcome return to Limerick. I had a blast in 2010 and looking forward to 2014 already.

But as sineadw so sagely said people don't see the value in doing work for free.

thebouldwhacker

Agreed.
But when I volunteer its for myself to do something that I appreciate. Thanks and recognition from others appeals to some to varying degrees others take satisfaction from the ownership of a job done. In my experience those who receive realise what they are getting and their gratitude is the only one that really matters, acknowledgment from co volunteers can lead to back slapping.

Congrats on the S.O., a great event, a metre stick to show what can be done.

angeleyes

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Agreed.
But when I volunteer its for myself to do something that I appreciate. Thanks and recognition from others appeals to some to varying degrees others take satisfaction from the ownership of a job done. In my experience those who receive realise what they are getting and their gratitude is the only one that really matters, acknowledgment from co volunteers can lead to back slapping.

Congrats on the S.O., a great event, a metre stick to show what can be done.

Very true thebouldwhacker, but regrettably it seems that a "simple thank you" is not there any more. Ah thank you on SO comment, it is unique event and I am so glad to be associated with S.O.I. Limerick is also the City of Culture for 2014 so am hoping for good things for Limerick.

Anyway lesson learnt - no more freebies.

AnCatDubh

angeleyes wrote: »

But as sineadw so sagely said people don't see the value in doing work for free.

emmmm...... I partially agree here but I think it's an erroneous generalisation as is stated. Sure some may not see the value, but others will genuinely be so grateful for people doing stuff for them. Knowing the difference, I think, is where skill is required and balance should be.

Also, before jumping on the high horse (obviously i'm being dramatic and not suggesting that you are ), just replay in your mind the sequence of events that has led to you being called upon to lend a hand. Did you by chance volunteer your services and perhaps they have simply continued to expect that service as you were part and parcel of what was going on and maybe you were the willing horse (willing horse analogy: the willing horse is always the one which gets the heaviest load). I say this just in case the reason that you end up shooting stuff for the parish is that you are close to the organisation and as well, its polite for them to include you and its a useful addition to whatever events are going on to have someone to record their event with a few snaps, but otherwise they'd not have a photographer there whereas through no fault of yourself and a lack of consideration on their part, when there's a paying job coming up "ah sure, we'll get the professional". Remember, a professional is simply someone who does photography as their profession (or part of their profession - semi professional) . In reality there is no guarantee of quality, yet there will be expectation within those hiring the "professional". What I'm getting at here is that perhaps there is an implicit expectation that they need a "professional" for many reasons - perhaps even just to create space between Angeleyes the photographer who turns up at the parish events and happens to take snaps, and the professional who won't turn up unless you pass money in their direction.

Personally speaking, there is a lot of voluntary stuff which i've done in the past and may continue doing into the future and when I analyse it in detail, in all honesty I often find that i may be getting a lot of satisfaction out of simply doing it - and that involves incurring personal expense to accomplish it too (prints, travel, time, even framing if I think it might make someone's day, and so forth). There is a different value proposition when an expectation of remuneration gets involved but I also find the engagement process is different too. Often for me, the approach is the reverse.

You can't really demand anything when the engagement is out of your control but you can remove yourself if you don't get anything out of the volunteering that you do. Perhaps then the value which you bring would be more explicit to the parish organisation. I've done this too where the expectation burden doesn't meet the satisfaction gained by doing the work. At times, it is a case of "did you not bring your camera". Sometimes, the camera may be in the boot of the car, and the answer is "not this evening". The choice is mine and the choice is yours.

(hopefully you'll read the above as constructive rather than negative. I just think some thought and deep and honest true to yourself analysis would be a useful first step in dealing with the scenario. Oh, and sorry for rambling a little. )

(oh, and one other thing. I may be completely incorrect )

angeleyes

I totally get what you are saying CatDubh and thank you so much for the reply and no you didn't ramble, what you said totally made sense. I was and am still on the committee. I am that willing horse and I do enjoy recording any local event especially if my DD is involved. It does seem to be expected that I will be there and I think I am not taken seriously as a professional but just as the person who does photography as a hobby. I know that there is no thought of payment to me as I was a "committee member". Even for the calendar project I was a part of last year I incurred some expense in sourcing images that had historical reference from the National Library, brought prints to a meeting and guess what I got none back. I saw people sneaking prints into their pockets. I'm not mean far from it but I don't like people taking the proverbial either, and I am aware not everyone is endowed with good manners.

I was even asked for a favour early this year while at the time it was known that I had a sibling who was to put it bluntly dying and it was my darling hubby who took the call in my absence and he politely put said committee person in "the picture"

It is galling that the so called professional is called upon for the paying gig. However, I do intend to set up a studio and yes I have a few bookings already for next year. I had intended to set myself after graduating from college late last year but then my sister was seriously ill, and I had to put all my plans in abeyance as we were unsure as to how much time she had and it did take me some time to get back to myself after she passed away. But I am looking forward to 2013 and perhaps when it is seen that I am registered as a small business then maybe I might get some respect - I am sure if there is any fund raising in the future - I will be called upon for a donation/advertising and/or voucher for a studio sitting.

Freebies are personal choice.

My general rule of thumb is that I won't consider a freebie for a profit-making organisation (ie; a company/professional product/service providers). When it comes to charities, the job/s have to be either a charity I agree with and completely support, or an experience that I know I will enjoy.

I did three fashion shows for Tesco for free before. Half assed 'thanks' from two of them (and one barely acknowledged me). The thanks I got almost seemed begrudgingly done. Then I was asked to do a fourth one and it hit me: "Am I f*cking insane? I'm working for free for Tesco? Tesco don't want to pay me!. And that was the end of it with them. Turned down the 4th fashion show and that was it.

Did two other fashions shows, both for local charities. One were nice enough to me and even publicly thanked me (very quickly, amongst a scroll of other people who helped out), although to be fair, the others were fairly thankful and delighted I assisted them.

So i then decided to call an end to it. No more freebies unless I care about the cause or reckon it'll be enjoyable.


Tonight my feet are killing me. I've spent about 6 hours in a function room, along with many hours over the previous couple of weeks, helping a local voluntary organisation. The organisation are the Boyne Fishermen Rescue and Recover Service (an organisation whom I wholeheartedly agree with the existence of, and feel they're invaluable locally). They were rehearsing for (and today, doing) the Full Monty; an event that I reckoned would be great fun to capture and lend itself to some enjoyable imagery.

So it ticked my two boxes, a good charity and a good event. On top of that, every single time I worked with the ladies and gents involved, it has been fantastic fun. I've had a great laugh. Earlier tonight, after they bared all to a jam-packed function room, they gave a speech in which I was explicitly thanked and made feel like I was genuinely appreciated by them.

The function itself was fantastic and great fun (if not a tad stressful at times). I plan to work with these guys (for free) whenever possible, the experience was so good. I was even invited to their Christmas party.


So keeping that in mind, I'd never completely rule out free work. Photography is still something I enjoy doing, and although I'm a pro and I do need to make a living, the right freebies here and there can be very rewarding.


In your personal position, as you're on the committee of the local parish anyway (or so I gather from your posts?), I'd suggest telling people you're buying a new camera because the other one is worn to feck and the shutter's gone in it (by the time you get halfway through that sentence, most people will have lost interest in what you're saying, and will never know if you've gotten a new camera or not as they all look the same).

Jokingly, but firmly, explain that you're down a couple of hundred or thousand or whatever your camera's worth, and "sure sadly the gear isn't paying for itself", that you need to start making a few Euro to start covering your costs. Tell them you don't mind helping out every now and again if you can, but anything that's time or gear intensive needs to be paid for as it runs your equipment into the ground. Also, as you're on the committee, formally recommend yourself forward as a potential photographer for future events.

No idea how parishes are run, though, so not entirely sure how it works, to be honest.


EDIT: Should also point out that the other photographers I know of generally charge charities, anyway, so I don't feel bad about sending them a quote/price for a job. I'm sure a few of them recommend it.

sineadw

Just to clarify as I think I might have come across a bit mean: I worked for 10 years in the NGO sector, with about half of my full-time work being unpaid. I loved it, and continue to volunteer as much as I can with the orgs. It's a very wonderful thing to do. BUT: I honestly believe you should be able to say no. I had this conversation just last night on another topic, and we irish seem to be particularly bad at it. Volunteering in whatever form should be something you feel good about, and if for whatever reason you don't, then you fix it or you stop working for the organisation. I learned that lesson the hard way.You have to take care of yourself and do what you feel is right, and you should *never* feel guilty for that.

thebouldwhacker

+1
& I don't think you sound anything of the sort, an interesting conversation is all.

EyeBlinks

Learn to shoot on auto ... it's not as difficult as it seems

magnumlady

Do you have to print the photos?
I did photos during the summer for my local community but just put them all on the Facebook page so it didn't cost me anything in printing.

angeleyes

EyeBlinks wrote: »

Learn to shoot on auto ... it's not as difficult as it seems

That's what the other guy who gets asked to do the paying gigs does and admitted to shooting in auto and I was so taken aback I started a thread on said subject last year.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71147325

sinead you didn't come across mean at all and what you said was just total common sense and I got a lot from your post. magnumlady I don't have to print the photos but I do print a few to give away and its not that I mind but I have found these days that "thank you" and manners have disappeared. I put images on Facebook as well.

Last year when President McAlleese came to town I took a picture of a girl presenting her with flowers, got a very snooty email from her mother looking for the photo - no such thing as "would you mind" or "can I pay you" - so she got a snooty email back saying picture was on Facebook she could download it but I had watermarked it.

dinneenp

next time they ask tell them you're busy. And see if they draft in someone else for free or pay someone.

DaireQuinlan

angeleyes wrote: »

so she got a snooty email back saying picture was on Facebook she could download it but I had watermarked it.

ooo :-D That'll show her !

Seriously, if you want to do it, then just do it, and stop getting all riled up over someone else who gets paid for doing the same thing. If you DON'T want to do it, or want to get paid for it, just say so. There's no point complaining on some forum about it.

Also I have no idea what this means:

I know for a fact shoots in auto and seeing his work I can see why

Evidently you didn't take any input from that original train wreck of a thread you've quoted above.

EyeBlinks

Maybe focusing on the end product and not being a camera snob might help :rolleyes:

melekalikimaka

i just flat out refuse freebies now, in saying that I shoot gigs for free, well badger for passes, but the shots i only keep for myself and of bands i like, I had a dream of shooting gigs...once, and realised so much freebie work goes on, so I wont try flog them after out of respect for people trying to make it

angeleyes

Daire - this was just a thread to have a little rant - and to hear from others in similar situations. If you don't want to read the thread no one is asking you but there was no need for you to post a a bitchy comment - its uncalled for and lacks maturity. So if you have nothing constructive to say - don't say anything at all.

pearljamfan

i wanted to start a similar thread a while ago along the same lines but i just told myself to suck it up, lol, but recently its really started to annoy me, i started out enjoying having a camera and then i decided to really try and get myself earning money out of what i do, so i volunteered my time to a local facebook page , they wanted someone to cover local events and take pictures around the town , which i did and i quite enjoyed meeting a few new people, lots of compliments about my photos.. 6 months from there people knew who i was and it gave me a boost to try and widen my horizons and really work at getting myself up and running. ive done wedding detail photos in the hope id get printed in wedding mags and that hopefully people would see my name... etc etc, and i really think ive done my fair share of freebies...

now im going to rant a bit- the person that 1st signed me up to help out on that website is getting ALOT of work ( product photography, pubs, restaurants ) and its people that ive touted myself too, they havent even got back to me, and theyve gone with the other guy, the photos ive seen are AWFUL!! .. (wb problems, blown highlights, bad composition)

so thats the backstory, my question is how do i stop myself feeling 'jealous' hes getting all this work and im being overlooked,i know im 100% more creative and that the paid work ive done has been to a good standard. i dont want to feel sorry for myself i want to know is it because i started off volunteering my time??
but it makes me want to give up.

hope im not taking this thread off topic!

DaireQuinlan

pearljamfan wrote: »

now im going to rant a bit- the person that 1st signed me up to help out on that website is getting ALOT of work ( product photography, pubs, restaurants ) and its people that ive touted myself too, they havent even got back to me, and theyve gone with the other guy, the photos ive seen are AWFUL!! .. (wb problems, blown highlights, bad composition)

so thats the backstory, my question is how do i stop myself feeling 'jealous' hes getting all this work and im being overlooked,i know im 100% more creative and that the paid work ive done has been to a good standard. i dont want to feel sorry for myself i want to know is it because i started off volunteering my time??
but it makes me want to give up.

Why are they preferring his/her work over yours ? These are people who have seen your work, and his, and still go with his stuff over yours ? Are both of you competing for paid work ? Is he putting in lower bids ? Is your opinion of his work perhaps a little subjective, coloured by your annoyance over his getting the work that you think you should be getting ?

pearljamfan

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

Why are they preferring his/her work over yours ? These are people who have seen your work, and his, and still go with his stuff over yours ? Are both of you competing for paid work ? Is he putting in lower bids ? Is your opinion of his work perhaps a little subjective, coloured by your annoyance over his getting the work that you think you should be getting ?

the only thing i can think of is hes getting in there first and that he knows alot more people than i do.

i know hed charge a bit more than me for a wedding, but unless hes doing freebies now then i dont think my price is the problem. i cant really put any photos on here, but im definitely not being funny about the pics cos im annoyed, blue skin on a model at a fashion show, yellow bread in a food shot and looking up at someones nostrils in a portrait, blown out wedding dresses.... the list goes on! and whats worse is noone calling him up on it.
i think maybe i just need to have a thicker skin and keep at it but its hard sometimes!! i cant afford to do anymore freebies thats for sure.

angeleyes

pearljamfan

I totally get what you are saying. From the images I saw on your blog your work is amazing and I can totally sense your frustration as I am having one of those weeks myself. It can be hard to catch a break but I think you work does speak for itself. Is there any way you can find out what your "competitor" is charging for doing weddings and his/her other work.

EyeBlinks

Jaysus guys will yees ever get over yourselves.

Your work might be amazing but face facts it's not cutting the mustard here.

Instead of dissing the "opposition" get out there and do something about it instead of moaning and bitching.

Paid photography is light years away from hobby photography. :pac::pac::pac:

pearljamfan

lol, i admit to having a moan now and then, but seriously im trying to work out what i can do differently so i can make some money!! Eyeblinks do u not think ive tried everything that i can think of ,thats why im pissed off , i dont have a job with a paper, or live in the city, i cant drop everything to take pics at a protest, ..i have to get work where it suits me and yes i will give out when a **** photographer gets those jobs! i dont want to b a hobby photographer!!!

thanks angeleyes, its nice to be complimented now and then! it is frustrating tho, i think i need to work more on the sales side of things .

EyeBlinks

How to stop doing Freebies ?

1. Say no thank you

Problem : You don't get the work

Solution : Put the time you would have spent doing the Freebie into getting paid work ... problem solved

DaireQuinlan

pearljamfan wrote: »

lol, i admit to having a moan now and then, but seriously im trying to work out what i can do differently so i can make some money!! Eyeblinks do u not think ive tried everything that i can think of ,thats why im pissed off , i dont have a job with a paper, or live in the city, i cant drop everything to take pics at a protest, ..i have to get work where it suits me.

(emphasis mine)

This might just be your problem though, Either it's a job or it's not a job. If you're just taking jobs where it suits you then maybe you're going to have to settle on being a hobbyist who occasionally gets paid work ?

angeleyes

Gosh guys - we came on here for a bitch and a moan - its ok to rant now and again. There is really no need for you two to have a go at anyone.

There are plenty of people out there doing freebies just to show people what they are capable of doing - it happens in other areas of work too.

EyeBlinks

Having a go ? ... go away outta that ... some very practical advice there :rolleyes:

pearljamfan

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

(emphasis mine)

This might just be your problem though, Either it's a job or it's not a job. If you're just taking jobs where it suits you then maybe you're going to have to settle on being a hobbyist who occasionally gets paid work ?

well true, but its not like im getting offered those kind of things either, i can arrange my life if i get a job for sure. ah sure ill rant to myself :P sorry for dragging the thread away from freebie work problems!

angeleyes

EyeBlinks wrote: »

Having a go ? ... go away outta that ... some very practical advice there :rolleyes:

In your opinion only.

Not at all pearljamfan - everyone's experience is different and if we can't have a rant now and again we'd go mad!

EyeBlinks

angeleyes wrote: »

In your opinion only.

Well you asked a question and you got some answers ... maybe not the answers you wanted true :P

angeleyes

EyeBlinks wrote: »

Well you asked a question and you got some answers ... maybe not the answers you wanted true :P

Yes from other boardies.

EyeBlinks

Glad you got the answers you were looking for and hope it brings you loads of paid work

angeleyes

Yep 2013 is going to be amazing!

EyeBlinks

angeleyes wrote: »

Yep 2013 is going to be amazing!

Well that'll match your photos then, well done

angeleyes

EyeBlinks wrote: »

Well that'll match your photos then, well done

Thanks

dan dan

An old time photographer in my village, turned up at all occasions with his camera.
All next week ,his resulting work,was displayed in a local shop window. You could buy them there. Actually lots were bought to get them out of public view.
You would like a snap? Of course go down to Daly`s shop. they will take orders for reprints.

Reoil

Why not simply ask the person who is organising the other paid photographer to give you the gig next time?
Maybe they know each other and it has nothing to do with your photography?

angeleyes

In my case I did Reoil, but I was told that the other guy "he always did it before". What do you say to that?

Effects

Ask if they might consider you for the job and that you think you can do it better.

DaireQuinlan

angeleyes wrote: »

In my case I did Reoil, but I was told that the other guy "he always did it before". What do you say to that?

Yank out your IPad / Laptop / portfolio and demonstrate right there that you provide a superior product ? Normally at a higher price but y'know, if they're accustomed to paying this then maybe you can do him a favour and match his price ? Keep on badgering him until he relents ? SELL yourself

EyeBlinks

angeleyes wrote: »

In my case I did Reoil, but I was told that the other guy "he always did it before". What do you say to that?

Flick those angel eyes at him

angeleyes

EyeBlinks wrote: »

Flick those angel eyes at him

love it ! and it gave me a laugh thanks EyeBlinks

Borderfox

If you make it easy to sell your work it becomes easier to stop doing freebies, I stick all the work I want to sell up onto Zenfolio and of any of the local stuff I shoot (free) I provide low res shots for the local paper and then direct anybody else onto the pay site. Might be an option to look into.