The next six months on IE?

sligotrain

I think Varadkar is going to take quite a bit of action on CIE in the coming months and particularly on Iarnrod Eireann.

I think the following might well happen;

IE will be split into separate Infrastructure, Passenger Operations and Freight Operation companies. Given the very different needs of Freight and Passenger Operations I don't think it makes sense to keep the two together. The Infrastructure company would control signalling and therefore the Working timetable.

The key problems then is keeping the costs under control.

I don't like this but I can't see the Ballybrophy-Limerick, Ennis-Athenry or indeed the Limerick Junction-Waterford passenger services remaining. I think the media are busy softening us up for a closure and these lines will then be mothballed.

If the Limerick Junction-Waterford section closes, Limerick Junction would ironically be redundant as the Ballybrophy-Limerick section is actually more direct to Dublin.

The next question then is how to get new investment onto the Railway. Idyl Race mentioned SNCF or DB as potential partners - but would a foreign rail firm be interested in the IE network or will the taxpayer continue to pay for it?

Victor

sligotrain wrote: »

If the Limerick Junction-Waterford section closes, Limerick Junction would ironically be redundant as the Ballybrophy-Limerick section is actually more direct to Dublin.

More direct, but profoundly slower and less flexible - only one track.

How would you get from Cork to Limerick? Via Ballybrophy?

dowlingm

If Limerick Junction-Waterford stops then Cork-Limerick transfers will be mostly via Thurles - rumour has it the new Heuston side timetable will feature some of this.

Sligotrain - I think my mind just boggled at the notion that Limerick-Ballybrophy, single track, ETS and 40 odd mph as it is with almost all stations single platform including Roscrea would somehow substitute for mainline running. There are scenarios where that line can have value but dangle the raw meat and you're going to get clawed by the tigers.

sligotrain

dowlingm wrote: »

If Limerick Junction-Waterford stops then Cork-Limerick transfers will be mostly via Thurles - rumour has it the new Heuston side timetable will feature some of this.

Sligotrain - I think my mind just boggled at the notion that Limerick-Ballybrophy, single track, ETS and 40 odd mph as it is with almost all stations single platform including Roscrea would somehow substitute for mainline running. There are scenarios where that line can have value but dangle the raw meat and you're going to get clawed by the tigers.

Interesting point about Thurles. How would Cork-Limerick transfers work from there?

Limerick-Ballybrophy is direct but as you rightly point out the assets have been sweated beyond their lifespan and now would require significant investment to get up to proper mainline standard.

Now about that raw meat and tigers comment. As far as I can tell you're all pussycats round here.

Judgement Day

I heard some clown from the Coach Transport & Tourism Council
http://www.cttc.ie/ on Newstalk this morning. He started off in a semi-rational ramble but about two sentences in launched into an astounding attack on inter-city rail describing it as dead as the Dodo or some such phrase. He sounded like some of the posters on the C+T forum. Of course he went unchallenged by the Newstalk presenters who were just using him to fill in the schedule. Later Barry Kenny gave one of his usual unintelligible discourses about booking online etc.etc. which would save money etc.etc. and you were left with a warm, reassured feeling that fares would actually be coming down and services expanding....:rolleyes:

Judgement Day

Heard this scheme being mentioned this morning too: Car Club Rental Scheme http://www.thejournal.ie/car-club-rental-scheme-dublin-574153-Aug2012/

Is it too much to expect that CIE/IE might get involved? It would seem an ideal opportunity to win back business travellers who could avail of the train to get some work done while having the benefit of a car available at their destination. There used to be something similar back in the late 1960s/early 1970s - Murray's Rail Drive or some such name but like so many other CIE inspired ventures it probably died through neglect.

Losty Dublin

Limerick-Ballybrophy is not at all direct or quicker to get to Dublin, OP.

Ballybrophy branch has no longer got a direct access into the mainline; even when it did this faced towards Cork on the up platform. These days the branch train runs into a head shunt and is isolated. It can only access the mainline with a change of ends of train and points located to the north or in the case of a locomotive and train, a reversal shunt onto the up mainline and heading into the station again, ideally into the down loop to minimize blocking up the mainline. Even before the direct access, a turnaround and shunting was required for Dublin services via Roscre and Nenagh.

Via Limerick Junction is infinitely better and quicker for passengers in general , even if the long awaiting tamping and speed increases on the branch came to fruition.

davidlacey

would having a separate freight department actually help things? how many people are actually employed by the rail freight division a handful? and its not exactly a huge money spinner?

shamwari

A freight department would be nice if they ACTIVELY tried to generate and pursue new business, instead of letting what they have or had decline.

rainbowdash

Can't see Ennis - Athenry getting chopped, with new infrastructure there is probably lower maintenance costs than the Ballybrophy and Waterford branches.

And for all its rights and wrongs the trains continue to run through to more viable sections on either side.

Jamie2k9

Can't see Ennis - Athenry getting chopped, with new infrastructure there is probably lower maintenance costs than the Ballybrophy and Waterford branches.

And for all its rights and wrongs the trains continue to run through to more viable sections on either side.

Limerick J-Waterford has had complete track and signals renewed and this was after the WRC opened and its not making such a loss as the WRC

Only reason the WRC won't close is because its the west which comes up with any excuse from your TD's to maintain services and expect everybody else to pay for something which people in the west don't use.

Judgement Day

Great isn't it we can all bicker away about which lines should be closed next. As far back as the early 1980's the then CIE General Manager, Jack Higgins, who was not particularly rail-minded admitted that there would be little gained from closing any further rail lines. The heaviest losses are on the busiest lines - even McKinsey noticed that - and the closure of the Waterford/Rosslare line saved little more than Barry Kenny's annual salary. A drop in the ocean but bicker away.

end of the road

limerick junction waterford and ballybroaphy will be closed to save the sacred WRC for sure

The Idyl Race

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Limerick-Ballybrophy is not at all direct or quicker to get to Dublin, OP.

Ballybrophy branch has no longer got a direct access into the mainline; even when it did this faced towards Cork on the up platform. These days the branch train runs into a head shunt and is isolated. It can only access the mainline with a change of ends of train and points located to the north or in the case of a locomotive and train, a reversal shunt onto the up mainline and heading into the station again, ideally into the down loop to minimize blocking up the mainline. Even before the direct access, a turnaround and shunting was required for Dublin services via Roscre and Nenagh.

Via Limerick Junction is infinitely better and quicker for passengers in general , even if the long awaiting tamping and speed increases on the branch came to fruition.

I can see what sligotrain is driving at, in that Castleconnell/Birdhill for Killaloe/Nenagh/Roscrea/Cloughjordan could theoretically add more value to the railway, but I believe the residents of North Tipperary have condemned the Limerick - Ballybrophy line by not using it. Of course the reason why it isn't used is that Irish Rail left it with pitifully slow line speeds, so blame there.

Use it or lose it has to be the catchphrase for the railway from now on.

Judgement Day

The Idyl Race wrote: »

I can see what sligotrain is driving at, in that Castleconnell/Birdhill for Killaloe/Nenagh/Roscrea/Cloughjordan could theoretically add more value to the railway, but I believe the residents of North Tipperary have condemned the Limerick - Ballybrophy line by not using it. Of course the reason why it isn't used is that Irish Rail left it with pitifully slow line speeds, so blame there.

Use it or lose it has to be the catchphrase for the railway from now on.

Use it or lose it is well and good if the trains are run using suitable stock, at the right times and speeds. The Nenagh branch has been run into the ground for years in much the same way as Limerick Junction/Rosslare.

Losty Dublin

The Idyl Race wrote: »

I can see what sligotrain is driving at, in that Castleconnell/Birdhill for Killaloe/Nenagh/Roscrea/Cloughjordan could theoretically add more value to the railway, but I believe the residents of North Tipperary have condemned the Limerick - Ballybrophy line by not using it. Of course the reason why it isn't used is that Irish Rail left it with pitifully slow line speeds, so blame there.

Use it or lose it has to be the catchphrase for the railway from now on.

That's the line.

Money's were sought and approved to relay and improve it some time ago. Upon completion of some of the work, Irish Rail were left short of promised cash for other renewals and work. Given the choice in carrying on the remainder of the renewal on the branch and a programme of tamping or to maintain work on the Dublin-Cork, the mainline work won out.

Had it have been closer to today, neither line would probably have had any work done on it.

dowlingm

the heaviest losses are on the busiest lines - measured in cash money or in Euros/passenger-km? I choose the latter as my benchmark - I don't expect rail to be profitable, just to be a mass transportation mode. If the money which can be saved on ending Nenagh branch service (for example) - and by that I mean only driver and vehicle costs since the infrastructure will likely have to be maintained - meant that that money could support say 10000 psgr-km a day rather than 1000 psgr-km by putting on extra service on lines currently running below frequency or carriage capacity then I don't see the point in not doing that, particularly given that the branch corridor is heavily served by superior speed and frequency bus options.

foggy_lad

But why waste money maintaining lines that will never be opened again? Make them into greenways and spend the maintenance funds on providing services where there are passengers.

dowlingm

foggy - the Harcourt Street line was reopened decades after it closed. Rights of way are not easily got but easy to dispose of. However, as "banked infrastructure" closed rights of way should be held by another arm of government like NRA or OPW and not imposed on fare paying passengers, and preferably used for a good purpose in the meantime.

Incidentally there was a cryptic message posted on RUI from a chap who tends to be in the know about Nenagh branch stuff - looks like there's chopping ahead there.

Grandeeod

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That's the line.

Money's were sought and approved to relay and improve it some time ago. Upon completion of some of the work, Irish Rail were left short of promised cash for other renewals and work. Given the choice in carrying on the remainder of the renewal on the branch and a programme of tamping or to maintain work on the Dublin-Cork, the mainline work won out.

Had it have been closer to today, neither line would probably have had any work done on it.

Why weren't monies sought for improving that line along with Limerick Junct - Waterford - Rosslare, when the cash was being splashed 10 years ago? Improved line speeds, modern stations and decently timed services attract customers and breath life into lines. Is it not true that since the 1970s CIE/IE have wanted to close these lines? I'd put it to you that CIE/IE deliberately didn't include these line in the on track 2000 and subsequent programmes? They were ignored and funnily enough, its the much maligned political interference thats keeping the Nenagh line open.

Grandeeod

Grandeeod wrote: »

Why weren't monies sought for improving that line along with Limerick Junct - Waterford - Rosslare, when the cash was being splashed 10 years ago? Improved line speeds, modern stations and decently timed services attract customers and breath life into lines. Is it not true that since the 1970s CIE/IE have wanted to close these lines? I'd put it to you that CIE/IE deliberately didn't include these line in the on track 2000 and subsequent programmes? They were ignored and funnily enough, its the much maligned political interference thats keeping the Nenagh line open.

Almost all of Waterford to Limerick Junction has been relaid. Only a few short sections of jointed track remain. Closing now would be chucking millions away but that sort of thing has happaned in the past too.

dowlingm

When government leaves a rail system go without investment you can't wave a magic wand and then all lines can be fixed simultaneously. There's only so many permanent way personnel and even with contractors those projects have to be managed and so on. You can hire more staff but eventually you end up with people with nothing to do and expensive to get rid of.

There's probably people on here who would have done Limerick J-Waterford rather than KRP but every KRP track probably carries in a day what Limerick J-Waterford does in a week if not more.

foggy_lad

The KRP track would carry a years worth of LJ-Waterford passengers in a day!

Grandeeod

Fratello wrote: »

Almost all of Waterford to Limerick Junction has been relaid. Only a few short sections of jointed track remain. Closing now would be chucking millions away but that sort of thing has happaned in the past too.

Im aware of that. But it was done on an ad hoc basis. Furthermore the stations are still a disgrace. Investment has been minimal. CIE/IE want to close the line and will very soon. It is blatantly obvious that they have conspired to close certain line without ever attempting to make them work. Thats the bit I find sickening from a so called rail operator.

Judgement Day

I had cause to be in Waterford today and inexplicably felt the urge to check out the ongoing MkIII saga and, yes, they were still dumped north of the station where they were in March 2009 !!!!

http://irishrailways.blogspot.ie/2009/03/whats-wrong-with-these-carriages.html

Even the scrap value will diminish due to the sea air if they lie there much longer.



Meanwhile the magnificent edifice that is Waterford Station closely resembled the "Marie Celeste" with a handful of bored passengers evident while over at the Bus Eireann station the place was heaving with passengers. Many of them no doubt availing of the well timed buses to places like Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel etc. next on the IE hit-list. When the line to Limerick Junction closes, as it inevitably will, the elephant in the room remains the 'political' line to Cherryville Junction...If it remains in CIE hands the railway in Waterford will cease to exist very soon.

end of the road

Judgement Day wrote: »

I had cause to be in Waterford today and inexplicably felt the urge to check out the ongoing MkIII saga and, yes, they were still dumped north of the station where they were in March 2009 !!!!

and forever they will be there
http://irishrailways.blogspot.ie/2009/03/whats-wrong-with-these-carriages.html

Judgement Day wrote: »

Even the scrap value will diminish due to the sea air if they lie there much longer.
good, i hope it does, infact i hope they only get 1 cent per carrige, its all they deserve for leaving them to rot like that when they should be in service.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Meanwhile the magnificent edifice that is Waterford Station closely resembled the "Marie Celeste" with a handful of bored passengers evident while over at the Bus Eireann station the place was heaving with passengers.

yeah, i believe their the ones IE drove away.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Many of them no doubt availing of the well timed buses to places like Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel etc. next on the IE hit-list.

like all the railway

Judgement Day wrote: »

When the line to Limerick Junction closes, as it inevitably will, the elephant in the room remains the 'political' line to Cherryville Junction...If it remains in CIE hands the railway in Waterford will cease to exist very soon.

so will the whole lot of our network, that lot in IE management only care about their pay checks and pensions, some of the biggest bunch of wasters in the states history

cbl593h

And did you notice JD that in the usual IÉ shortsighted attitude that the siding where the coaches in the picture below were sitting is now no more ?? Just in case they might need it in future they remove it.............

Captain Chaos

Some of the Mk3s stored in Waterford were scrapped on site a few years ago. Don't know why they didn't do the lot at the time as they seem hell bent to destroy them.

kc56

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Some of the Mk3s stored in Waterford were scrapped on site a few years ago. Don't know why they didn't do the lot at the time as they seem hell bent to destroy them.

These were scrapped after a shunting accident a few years ago.

Captain Chaos

kc56 wrote: »

These were scrapped after a shunting accident a few years ago.

Ah yes, I remember that. Didn't think they were damaged that bad. Suppose they were not going to fix something they never intended to use again.

Jamie2k9

Ah yes, I remember that. Didn't think they were damaged that bad. Suppose they were not going to fix something they never intended to use again.

Was the whole set scrapped, one carrage only had real damage with very little to the rest.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Don't know why they didn't do the lot at the time as they seem hell bent to destroy them.

most lightly it was the same mindset as when some closed lines were only partially lifted, ah we'l lave the rest now lads go and geha cuppa tay begarra, whah about the rest, ah shur we'l lave it for another time, we've enough done for today aye, <never comes back to finish>