Manufacturing fetish obscures other real work

There is a very interesting article in the business section of the Irish Times by John Kay... with the above heading ( I have tried to link it but I cant )

His premise is that there is an obsession that only manufacturing is real work and that the services industry is see as some how not real work or not able to provide good quality jobs.

Do you think thats true.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/1114/1224326574844.html

frankosw

mariaalice wrote: »

There is a very interesting article in the business section of the Irish Times by John Kay... with the above heading ( I have tried to link it but I cant )

His premise is that there is an obsession that only manufacturing is real work and that the services industry is see as some how not real work or not able to providing good quality jobs.

Do you think thats true.

To my mind the obsession has long been with IT and particulalrly Foreign multinationals.

This is probably because it doesnt involve anything more strenous than sitting at a desk all day.

The lack of interest in the services industry and the snobbery associated with it can be seen by the huge numbers of foreign nationals in the industry.

Head The Wall

mariaalice wrote: »

There is a very interesting article in the business section of the Irish Times by John Kay... with the above heading ( I have tried to link it but I cant )

His premise is that there is an obsession that only manufacturing is real work and that the services industry is see as some how not real work or not able of provide good quality jobs.

Do you think thats true.

Lets ignore the idiotic post above as not everyone in a multinational sits at a desk

The service industry generally has low and high paid jobs depending on the level of service and skill needed but what John Kay is probably getting at is buying and selling stuff to each other is just recycling money with in the country. This is mainly what was happening during the boom.

Yes their is the multiplier effect to bear in mind but what really needs to be done is for the country to get money in from other jurisdictions into our economy via exports (physical products) and selling services externally (cloud etc) The multiplier effect of this money will be much greater and more beneficial to Ireland as a whole.

sock puppet

frankosw wrote: »

To my mind the obsession has long been with IT and particulalrly Foreign multinationals.

This is probably because it doesnt involve anything more strenous than sitting at a desk all day.

The lack of interest in the services industry and the snobbery associated with it can be seen by the huge numbers of foreign nationals in the industry.

You might want to read the article first. It's in yesterday's FT.

Voltex

I recall my economics lecturer stating that if Ireland wanted to recover we need to start making stuff people actually want!

I suppose what has to be looked at is what the value creation is of any process or service.

OMD

Head The Wall wrote: »

Lets ignore the idiotic post above as not everyone in a multinational sits at a desk

The service industry generally has low and high paid jobs depending on the level of service and skill needed but what John Kay is probably getting at is buying and selling stuff to each other is just recycling money with in the country. This is mainly what was happening during the boom.

Yes their is the multiplier effect to bear in mind but what really needs to be done is for the country to get money in from other jurisdictions into our economy via exports (physical products) and selling services externally (cloud etc) The multiplier effect of this money will be much greater and more beneficial to Ireland as a whole.

Services contribute greatly to exports in this country.

andrew

I think in general people have a manufacturing fetish. It's easy to think that manufacturing is important because it results in something you can actually hold and attribute value to. Even something for something really complicated, like a computer processor, it's easy for people to see how useful such a component is. But take software, which can be equally complicated, and I think people automatically consider it to be less valuable, on an intrinsic level. And so you get a situation in which people clamour for a return to/the maintenance of a manufacturing sector, even in countries which no longer have a comparative advantage in manufacturing. Most people don't even realise that in every advanced economy, the service sector is responsible for the largest proportion of GDP.

Maybe the current generation of people will have a greater appreciation for intangible products, especially software, since they won't have any recollection of a time when today's advanced economies were based upon physical manufacturing. Either way, people need to start realising that the 'advanced economies' advantage now lies in their high levels of human capital and ability to manipulate information, not in their ability to mass produce things, or at the very least to mass produce very advanced and high tech things.

Farmer Pudsey

andrew wrote: »

I think in general people have a manufacturing fetish. It's easy to think that manufacturing is important because it results in something you can actually hold and attribute value to. Even something for something really complicated, like a computer processor, it's easy for people to see how useful such a component is. But take software, which can be equally complicated, and I think people automatically consider it to be less valuable, on an intrinsic level. And so you get a situation in which people clamour for a return to/the maintenance of a manufacturing sector, even in countries which no longer have a comparative advantage in manufacturing. Most people don't even realise that in every advanced economy, the service sector is responsible for the largest proportion of GDP.

Maybe the current generation of people will have a greater appreciation for intangible products, especially software, since they won't have any recollection of a time when today's advanced economies were based upon physical manufacturing. Either way, people need to start realising that the 'advanced economies' advantage now lies in their high levels of human capital and ability to manipulate information, not in their ability to mass produce things, or at the very least to mass produce very advanced and high tech things.

I agree with you to one extent in that anything we can export is of tanigible benifit to the country. However not all people are capable of being software engineers or salepeople. We need a balance. We need some amount of labour intensive ( not necessarily manual labour) to soak up the large amount of workers that are not suitable for high tech work.

The boom actually priced us out of this type of employment and at present social welfare squeezes it from the bottom. Our education system which tends to push people towards non engineering quilifications also is a disadvantage. On top of this high wages in banking,law, public service administration, health and formerely building etc tends not to encourage high achivers to consider tech cources in University.

But getting back to your post it is viable low-medium paid work that is required to really pull us out of this recession

_Kaiser_

frankosw wrote: »

To my mind the obsession has long been with IT and particulalrly Foreign multinationals.

This is probably because it doesnt involve anything more strenous than sitting at a desk all day.

The lack of interest in the services industry and the snobbery associated with it can be seen by the huge numbers of foreign nationals in the industry.

I can only presume from this post that you have neither worked in IT nor a multinational.

I've worked in both for years now, with a excursion into the public sector as well, and I can't remember the last time I just got to sit on my ass for the day. :rolleyes:

Scortho

Manufacturing for Ireland is in the high tech areas such as medical devices, precision energy, specialized computer and I.T equipment is where Ireland needs to look towards more. The days of low to semi-skilled workers assembling computers or making tee-shirts (fruit of the loom) are over.
We also need to focus on service industry which has massive potential to grow and expand. The fact that services can be easily exported e.g cloud computing or marketing and design removes one of our largest barriers, transport costs. We also need to gradually move from a country known for producing pharmaceutical drugs to country known for researching and designing them.
Thankfully if we look at recent job announcements, most of them are in high tech well paying sectors.
In essence we need to be one step ahead of the curve.

Farmer Pudsey

Scortho wrote: »

Manufacturing for Ireland is in the high tech areas such as medical devices, precision energy, specialized computer and I.T equipment is where Ireland needs to look towards more. The days of low to semi-skilled workers assembling computers or making tee-shirts (fruit of the loom) are over.
We also need to focus on service industry which has massive potential to grow and expand. The fact that services can be easily exported e.g cloud computing or marketing and design removes one of our largest barriers, transport costs. We also need to gradually move from a country known for producing pharmaceutical drugs to country known for researching and designing them.
Thankfully if we look at recent job announcements, most of them are in high tech well paying sectors.
In essence we need to be one step ahead of the curve.

In theory this is grand however it will condem us to high levels of unemploment unless we can generate ten of thousnads of jobs in these high tech jobs. Our colleges and schools would have to refocus away from administration, building and buisness courses to IT and software. But the biggest issue is that not all workers are suitable for these jobs we need low tech as well, agriculture provides some tourism use to but not no longer. The Gathering is a one off pie in the sky job tourisn is crufied because of the cost base.

Where we can create these jobs I do not know but high Tech area's will not solve the unemployment problems we have. Joe Sixpack cannot write software.

Sleepy

I think Pudsey has the right of this, we have a large section of Irish society that hold education in disdain. These people will never be employable in the high-value service industry and won't be able to compete international for low-value manufacturing. The best they can hope for is the provision of low value services to those of us that are capable of holding down the high-end stuff.

The rest we'll have to support on the welfare system.

We're going to end up with a very, very divided society imo.

Scortho

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

In theory this is grand however it will condem us to high levels of unemploment unless we can generate ten of thousnads of jobs in these high tech jobs. Our colleges and schools would have to refocus away from administration, building and buisness courses to IT and software. But the biggest issue is that not all workers are suitable for these jobs we need low tech as well, agriculture provides some tourism use to but not no longer. The Gathering is a one off pie in the sky job tourisn is crufied because of the cost base.

Where we can create these jobs I do not know but high Tech area's will not solve the unemployment problems we have. Joe Sixpack cannot write software.

Oh no I agree totally. But Ireland cant compete with the BRIC countries on manufacturing price. Even allowing these companies to operate here with 0% corporation tax would still probably make it more expensive.

And then you'd have to wonder would the chap who was working as a laborer at 18 getting a couple of hundred quid into his hand for shoveling sand and lifting bricks etc. be willing to work in a factory manufacturing stuff for minimum wage?
Or would he rather stay at home all day and get his dole every week.
There isn't that much difference between dole for a 25 year old and minimum wage working 35 hour weeks.

antoobrien

andrew wrote: »

I think in general people have a manufacturing fetish. It's easy to think that manufacturing is important because it results in something you can actually hold and attribute value to. Even something for something really complicated, like a computer processor, it's easy for people to see how useful such a component is. But take software, which can be equally complicated, and I think people automatically consider it to be less valuable, on an intrinsic level. And so you get a situation in which people clamour for a return to/the maintenance of a manufacturing sector, even in countries which no longer have a comparative advantage in manufacturing. Most people don't even realise that in every advanced economy, the service sector is responsible for the largest proportion of GDP.

Maybe the current generation of people will have a greater appreciation for intangible products, especially software, since they won't have any recollection of a time when today's advanced economies were based upon physical manufacturing. Either way, people need to start realising that the 'advanced economies' advantage now lies in their high levels of human capital and ability to manipulate information, not in their ability to mass produce things, or at the very least to mass produce very advanced and high tech things.

While I agree with most of that (when I try to try explain the software product I work on I have to tell them that the minimum price to buy it is several million euros before they start listening), I don't think it's a fetish with manufacturing - rather an acknowledgement that the "knowledge jobs" are not for everyone.

I graduated from a CS course 10 years ago. The course I did dropped from 400+ points to course matriculation (b+ pass maths, 2 higher level c3s - one of which had to be a science subject - and 4 other passes including a european language & irish). I dropped into the college the following year to apply for a masters and I bumped into a lecturer. "Go take a look at the first year maths results, they're posted on the noticeboard" - something like 75% of the class failed. These are the kids that would have been graduating at the height of the boom, contributing the the "lack of IT talent" that we have at certain levels in the industry.

I look at my family and some of my friends; they couldn't do my job and I couldn't do most of theirs, not to lack of training or anything but some jobs just don't suit some people. I can work with my hands, would I like to be a brickie or a carpenter - no I'd find it mind numbingly repetitive & boring and I have very little (physical) creative talent. They're have the same problem staring at a computer screen all day, but they can create things I that I can only sit back and marvel at and make it look easy.

Niall Keane

Ah! Talk of The high tech knowledge economy...

And all the economic studies agree about "advanced economies"

But theres a major flaw, as they never consider the "capacity" of the human mind to absorb and learn new skills. On a human scale such macro economics is relatively new. Such high tech economies only exist for the past 50 years, and "arrogance" has some believe that others cant "catch up".

We are in the beginning period of the "great levelling" the ultimate end to globalisation.

Take my own industry and China...

Before the 2008 Olympics China hired the best international Architects and Engineers to design a new China its showcase the Olympic Village.

They created the most formally and technologically advanced buildings exploiting economy of scale to come up with "The Birds Nest" itself - the volume of concrete involved meant that the form of the structure was the most economical aswell as surpassing the most high tech buildings in the west for environmental control (greenness) by using an outer thermal absorber in the form of the mass concrete to absorb an store solar gain. Up until then the best system was the use of "triple skin facade" technology, you see it in Dublin in the ARUP building and the law firm on the Liffey opposite the "conference centre"

I wont bore you with a few hundred other examples of cutting edge planning and architectural technology examples, suffice to say before 2008 Chinese Architects visited the west to study innovation, now we travel to Beijing, Shanghai etc.

So much for leading the world in Architecture, would software architecture fare any better? Buildings are solid but design is an intellectual property. And then we have piracy, by that i mean they had to commission buildings to get the building technology, how much cheaper and easier to replicate and learn the "how tos" of software etc.

There is the shadow of poor quality control that hangs over Chinese goods. But China ha identified this problem and in the current 5 year plan has started to rectify such. Likewise they have started to diversify their economy and intend to become world leaders in green technology and medical innovation.

Through the martial arts i have a friend in Wuhan (Chinas interior), his brother is a famous scientist working in North America, he has even been nominated for the Nobel prize. He has 118 people working under him developing cutting edge medical technologies. (Im not at liberty to divulge what exactly) why? Because i know that a science park is currently in planning in Chinas interior to house this team, though most don't know it. They will be offered in his brothers words "world class" facilities and "world class - cant turn it down pay". The company developing this programme is as one would expect tied to and financed by the Communist Party.

When i visited central China, and i suggest of you really want to look into the crystal ball to the future, you do likewise, i was stunned by how people lived. And how they worked.

But also how cheaply one could live very very well as so many lived and worked on so little.

An 8 course meal of fresh (literally off the fields) meal for 9 people cost less than €50 including a lot of alcohol. That was with tips and foreigner prices.

I saw whole villages (of half a million people) where they lived in a single room above a garage - endless terraces of such. (I had special permission to pass through this "secret china")
In the morning on one side of the terraces the "neighbourhood" gathered to bid for raw material sold from trucks - waste electrical goods to used tyres etc.
Passing back in the evening on the other end, the neighbourhood had gathered again with their recycled finished products and marketed their goods to individuals in trucks.
Street after street, line after line, fading to the horizon.
This was THE market economy, no salary contracts, no sick days, no welfare, an IBEC / ISME dream!

At the end of each street was a blue plastic barrel used to "slop out"

Now i understood how China could produce so much so cheaply. And also how quality control was impossible.

Some of the buildings, you cannot call them houses, had stained glass windows! Made with lead wiring and broken glass. These people could turn their hand to anything!

Yet they all had smiles on their faces, and they couldn't see me passing in a bus full of martial artists and communist officials. (Our accompaniment through this secret China) it wasn't a show! Then i thought - well look how strong they look, no flabby or thin people, after eating their food i understood!

All money is at its essence a way to trade conveniently, it is what it can buy, and there a pauper in the west could be a king on earth.

China is diversifying! Soon it will surpass our technology in the remaining areas it hasn't already. Our knowledge and skills - simply a traditional barbarian tribute to the central kingdom!

We on the other hand learn nothing, self assured in our own arrogance!
Now that construction has collapsed we will once again put all our eggs into another basket. (Pharma is set to leave i hear from inside)

We keep building our dreams in a single shack on a flood plane and seem shocked when every 10-15 years the river of time takes it all away, maybe we might consider building a number smaller shacks in different locations and pursue a policy of damage limitation? Of course that doesn't marry well with short term politics and gains! Too much effort! And we have the nerve to criticise Mao's 5 year plans, at least the Chinese have learned!

So whats going to happen with this "great levelling"? For us, it will be a race to the bottom for sure!

But its a race i feel we can never win! Society may well be myth, "community" certainly is!

Human nature / greed, has most clambering for short term gain, disregarding where it leads to. Calling for minimum wage and welfare cuts to be more competitive! Ultimately that means being more competitive than China, an I've seen the distopia of poverty that leads to.
Thats what awaits all our children, when whatever meagre capital saved now runs out in that dark future.

Maybe some hope to become so wealthy, while they can, in the death throws of western commerce so they and their descendants can become global landlords investing and maintaining their wealth in stocks and shares? Bit of a risk though? Don't you think? Theres always a crash!

How long before we are all on mopeds in blue suits with white helmets working endless hours in guarded compounds forming ant-like processions to and from work, to eat local veg and eggs, meat on occasion, slopping out in blue barrels at the end of the street, well public waste works is an uncompetitive expense!

I paint a picture like Orwell would, difference is, mine is from memory not imagination!

What do we want in our society? Or if you don't believe in one well then what do you want in your childrens environment?

We didn't have a knowledge economy 30 years ago, do you think it will take the third world as long to develop one in an internet - information sharing world?

Is not the very concept of Irish competitiveness flawed in a global market?

Will Ireland ever be able to leave its cycle of economic disasters as long as policies placing all our eggs in one basket continues?

One poster said we must "stay ahead of the curve", he is correct, but unfortunately we need to do this on many simultaneous fronts, because they keep collapsing!

This means a drain on human capital and resources, and a lack of focus! Not easy with such a small population! Certainly not so as to have enough local competitors to elevate standards to become global leaders!

Sun Tzu advised in his "art of war" that to defeat a greater opponent one should draw out his forces on many fronts. So if his army is divided in to ten sections and in total they outnumber us 2-1 well we can go about with our entire force and take on a tenth of his at ten different battles where we have a 5-1 advantage and so annihilate him.

This is the danger we face if we dilute our focus, but one we must overcome if we are not to simply accept recurring and more frequent economic annihilation at every boom bust cycle. We need to establish industrial reserves to fall back on, what we lacked in 2007.

We need some 4D thinking, perhaps even better some string theory, so action in one area creates stimulus in another unrelated activity?

So far with calls for wage / welfare etc. competitiveness, divisions between public and private sectors (killing public services kills your quality of life, again go to China and have a look) or looking for another golden goose boom activity all smacks of moronic, lateral, short-term, reactionary, 2D thinking. Im sure of course theres "respectable" studies to back these up, very thorough studies with analysis carried out over a massive 30 year period out of all human existence when advanced economies and easily accessible global markets have existed. If all you've seen is a maggot you cant conceive of the fly!

sparksfly

Selling something abroad is a countries only means of generating wealth. Exporters primarily pay all the bills.

These exports may be goods or services.

The greater the volume and the higher the added value we apply to these exports, the stronger our economy becomes. This is the policy of countries like Denmark and the other Scandinavian countries. Denmark exports over 10 times the value of food and agri goods that Ireland does. It also exports a huge amount of plant and equipment that is developed to support this food industry.

Thats the thing about manufacturing industries. There can be a large amount of spin off industries to support them. This is especially true of the really large multinationals.
While they are very welcome, we unfortunately have come to rely on foreign companies while letting a lot of our native manufacturing industries die.

The correct type of service industry can also generate huge revenue. Look at Dublin Aerospace for example. 100% Irish and landing massive contracts.

The formula is simple to understand but not so easy to put into practice.
Export as much high value goods and services as we can, buy Irish where possible (while understanding that there are some things that we must import) and dont waste the money.

frankosw

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

In theory this is grand however it will condem us to high levels of unemploment unless we can generate ten of thousnads of jobs in these high tech jobs. Our colleges and schools would have to refocus away from administration, building and buisness courses to IT and software..

A perfect example of putting all youer eggs in one basket.

What happens when this industry collapsess it surely will?

What happens to all the people who have trained in IT and software and done exactly nothing else?

THEY are thenes who'll suddenly find themselves on theole..just like alot of themre already whilst they wait for the 50k a year job to be dropped into thier laps from outer space.


Ireland has huge potential for indiginous industry and wealth generation but people just will not take any kind of risk and seem to be afraid of actually working for a living.

djpbarry

Niall Keane wrote: »

I wont bore you with a few hundred other examples of cutting edge planning and architectural technology examples, suffice to say before 2008 Chinese Architects visited the west to study innovation, now we travel to Beijing, Shanghai etc.

That may be the case in architecture, but it certainly isn’t in other industries.

China’s culture of obedience is not something that fosters innovation. It will take a radical overhaul of the country’s educational and political systems before there’s any chance of China producing something to rival Silicon Valley, for example.

Niall Keane wrote: »

Through the martial arts i have a friend in Wuhan (Chinas interior), his brother is a famous scientist working in North America, he has even been nominated for the Nobel prize. He has 118 people working under him developing cutting edge medical technologies. (Im not at liberty to divulge what exactly) why? Because i know that a science park is currently in planning in Chinas interior to house this team, though most don't know it. They will be offered in his brothers words "world class" facilities and "world class - cant turn it down pay".

Malaysia and Singapore are pursing similar strategies and they are all doomed to fail – you cannot pump $ x into basic research and expect an economic return of $ xy.

frankosw wrote: »

A perfect example of putting all youer eggs in one basket.

What happens when this industry collapsess it surely will?

The global software industry is on the verge of collapse? Really?

frankosw

djpbarry wrote: »

The global software industry is on the verge of collapse? Really?

Not..it'll keep providing jobs in Ireland forever and ever just like all other global industries that have waxed and waned over the years.

This is the problem..everybody gets fixated on short-term gain and makes no allowance for what they will do if it all goes pearshaped.

antoobrien

frankosw wrote: »

Not..it'll keep providing jobs in Ireland forever and ever just like all other global industries that have waxed and waned over the years.

This is the problem..everybody gets fixated on short-term gain and makes no allowance for what they will do if it all goes pearshaped.

After the IT&T bubble burst 11 years ago nobody is under the illusion that IT will provide the kind of stability that we have been fooled into a few times.

However IT has a habit of moving the goalposts and re-inventing itself, which makes it a bit more durable than other industries which can go away. The only way that IT will go away is if civilisation collapses, or we build skynet.

djpbarry

frankosw wrote: »

This is the problem..everybody gets fixated on short-term gain...

Short-term? Computers and electronic devices are on the way out, are they?

If it were up to you, how would you reshape Ireland's economy? What sectors would you focus on?

frankosw

djpbarry wrote: »

If it were up to you, how would you reshape Ireland's economy? What sectors would you focus on?

Tourism

Green technology

Agriculture

Mineral exploration


Brewing


Food


Hospitality


Manufacturing


Retailing

djpbarry

frankosw wrote: »

Tourism

Green technology

Agriculture

Mineral exploration


Brewing


Food


Hospitality


Manufacturing


Retailing

Ok, so how many of those don't require software and IT systems?

antoobrien

Forgive the slight re-ordering, but here's a small number of the types of software packages that makes those industries more effective depending on the size of the company involved:

All categories: ERP, HR, procurement

frankosw wrote: »

Tourism
Hospitality

Booking systems, point of sale, marketing, communications, callcenter

frankosw wrote: »

Green technology
Agriculture
Mineral exploration
Manufacturing

Firmware, scheduling, resource management, imaging

frankosw wrote: »

Brewing
Food
Retailing

Distribution, Point of sale, communications

djpbarry

frankosw wrote: »

Tourism

I think Ireland already focuses on tourism plenty.

frankosw wrote: »

Green technology

Were you not just saying that Ireland should move away from technology?

frankosw wrote: »

Agriculture

Ireland’s not going to be shifting away from agriculture any time soon.

frankosw wrote: »

Mineral exploration

Why?

frankosw wrote: »

Brewing

Ireland’s never had much of a brewing tradition, but I wouldn’t object to more microbreweries in Ireland.

frankosw wrote: »

Food

Fine.

frankosw wrote: »

Hospitality

Ties in with tourism really.

frankosw wrote: »

Manufacturing

Of what? Ireland has a pretty well established high-end manufacturing sector.

frankosw wrote: »

Retailing

Retail is retail – not sure there’s much room for innovation.

frankosw

djpbarry wrote: »

I think Ireland already focuses on tourism plenty.
Were you not just saying that Ireland should move away from technology?
Ireland’s not going to be shifting away from agriculture any time soon.
Why?
Ireland’s never had much of a brewing tradition, but I wouldn’t object to more microbreweries in Ireland.
Fine.
Ties in with tourism really.
Of what? Ireland has a pretty well established high-end manufacturing sector.
Retail is retail – not sure there’s much room for innovation.

This is part of the Irish problem..suggest a couple of solutions outside the box and people cannot wait to object.

Suit yourself and keep praying the IT industry goes on to provide full and sustainable employment...although it cannot and it will not.

djpbarry

frankosw wrote: »

This is part of the Irish problem..suggest a couple of solutions outside the box and people cannot wait to object.

Solutions outside the box? Sorry, I must have missed those. Care to elaborate?

frankosw wrote: »

Suit yourself and keep praying the IT industry goes on to provide full and sustainable employment...

I never said it would do any such thing. What I have questioned is your assertion that IT and software development aren't going to be around for too much longer - feel like justifying your position at all?

OMD

frankosw wrote: »

Tourism

Green technology

Agriculture

Mineral exploration


Brewing


Food


Hospitality


Manufacturing


Retailing

Outside the box?? Which one of these is outside the box?

frankosw

OMD wrote: »

Outside the box?? Which one of these is outside the box?

Any of them that doesnt regard IT as the saviour of the country.


I expected this really,the sort of people who want to work in IT do not want to get their hands dirty doing any other sort of work.

Just got a text from afriend of mine..her contract in Google has run out so she's gonna sign on until the job comes up again..another able bodied person on the Live Register.

antoobrien

frankosw wrote: »

Just got a text from afriend of mine..her contract in Google has run out so she's gonna sign on until the job comes up again..another able bodied person on the Live Register.

If she's any good she'll be back in work within a month.

I know a couple of guys who were let go over the summer by the company I work for. One fell into a job that he didn't really look for, the other is being hounded through linkedin and recruiters (his package is good enough that he doesn't qualify for SW, so he doesn't have to work until next year).

djpbarry

frankosw wrote: »

I expected this really,the sort of people who want to work in IT do not want to get their hands dirty doing any other sort of work.

Whereas farmers just can't wait to diversify.

There's more than a hint of personal begrudgery about your posts.

frankosw

antoobrien wrote: »

If she's any good she'll be back in work within a month.
.

Not with her attitude.

She knew the contract was only for a year so she sent off for three similar jobs last month and hasnt heard anything back so now she's in a sulk.

I pointed out there were several retail vacancies near where i live but she aint interested.

NullZer0

frankosw wrote: »

..suggest a couple of solutions outside the box.

What box?

frankosw wrote: »

I expected this really,the sort of people who want to work in IT do not want to get their hands dirty doing any other sort of work.

Usually they are people that want to build something and achieve something. The problem is that too many people have a focus on "work" in the traditional sense instead of a focus on results or innovation.

frankosw wrote: »

Just got a text from afriend of mine..her contract in Google has run out so she's gonna sign on until the job comes up again..another able bodied person on the Live Register.

Contract... with Google....

antoobrien

frankosw wrote: »

Not with her attitude.

She knew the contract was only for a year so she sent off for three similar jobs last month and hasnt heard anything back so now she's in a sulk.

I pointed out there were several retail vacancies near where i live but she aint interested.

And her attitude justifies your opinion that the entire IT industry don't want to get their hands dirty.:rolleyes:

What about all those chippies and brickies that won't work in McDonalds - I suppose that doesn't reflect badly on the construction industry?

frankosw

djpbarry wrote: »

Whereas farmers just can't wait to diversify..

Oh but they are diversifying.
I know somebody who has moved from barley farmingto growing willow trees for an taisce..they even come and fell the damn things,all he has to do is let them grow.

Then there's several people beginning to grow hops commercially for microbreweries,Killinagh Lodge, in Carbury, Co Kildare, rears South American alpaca llamas. The wool is sold as yarn.

Several farms around ireland are also staring to rear wild boar for teh domestic AND export market.

djpbarry wrote: »

There's more than a hint of personal begrudgery about your posts.

I dont begrudge anybody anything..it just grinds my gears when a bunch of students and people in thier 20's start blathering on about ways to save the economy that doesnt involove them actually doing very much at all(apart from having my own wages cut that is).

frankosw

antoobrien wrote: »

What about all those chippies and brickies that won't work in McDonalds - I suppose that doesn't reflect badly on the construction industry?

There's plenty of them working in Marks and Spencers though...

antoobrien

frankosw wrote: »

There's plenty of them working in Marks and Spencers though...

there's plenty in it working in M&S, Dunnes & Tesco too - just not on the floors

srsly78

Making software = manufacturing.

But because software isn't something physical many people don't understand how valuable it is. We export loads of it!

Franko there seems to have a real problem with software engineers, god knows why.

djpbarry

frankosw wrote: »

Oh but they are diversifying.

Under the heading of “farming”. We’re unlikely to see too many farmers deciding to branch into semiconductor manufacturing.

frankosw wrote: »

I dont begrudge anybody anything..it just grinds my gears when a bunch of students and people in thier 20's start blathering on about ways to save the economy that doesnt involove them actually doing very much at all(apart from having my own wages cut that is).

Right, see, this really doesn’t do your argument any favours.

You seem to have decided that working in software development or IT involves sitting in front of a computer all day and not really doing very much. If that’s the case, then why are companies in this sector having such difficulty filling vacancies? If it just involves sitting on your arse all day staring at a screen, surely anyone can do that?

And for the record, I'm neither a student nor am I in my 20's.

frankosw wrote: »

There's plenty of them working in Marks and Spencers though...

I’m almost certain there is not, but feel free to prove me wrong.

djpbarry

srsly78 wrote: »

Franko there seems to have a real problem with software engineers, god knows why.

I'm not sure it should be pointed out to him that were it not for such people, he wouldn't be able to have this discussion.

frankosw

djpbarry wrote: »

Under the heading of “farming”. We’re unlikely to see too many farmers deciding to branch into semiconductor manufacturing.
.

Why would they?

Farmers produce food and grow things...the difference between them and the people who manufacture semiconductors is that farmers will be needed forever,technology is it's only worst enemy,industries can be wiped out at a stroke as soon as new technology arrives to make it obsolete.

How many shops sell Vinyl or cassette tapes or Cd's?

What about VHS recorders? all the rage at the time and now sitting in attics gathering dust...600 quid in 1980 now worth nothing to anybody.

What about the people who made money repairing Tvs and Videos? They still around?


A few people get jobs in IT because of grants from public sector bodies like Enterprise Ireland and they think if it isnt IT related its not worth talking about.


The IT industry is far too depedant on glabal market forces and Ireland is hugely vulnerable because of the high cost of wages here as opposed to say Poland,India or Bangladesh.

antoobrien

frankosw wrote: »

How many shops sell Vinyl or cassette tapes or Cd's?

Lots, one just has to know where to look

frankosw wrote: »

What about VHS recorders? all the rage at the time and now sitting in attics gathering dust...600 quid in 1980 now worth nothing to anybody.

What about the hand plow, worked fine for what, a few thousand years?

frankosw wrote: »

What about the people who made money repairing Tvs and Videos? They still around?

yup.

frankosw wrote: »

Ireland is of limited interest to overseas anyway,its overpriced and the inhabitants can never stop bickering amongst themselves.

Greece, spain, italy, the usa, civil wars all across the middle east - that's bickering between themselves.

djpbarry

frankosw wrote: »

Why would they?

I don't know, but you apparently want everyone in IT to go work in farming or mineral exploration or something. Why would they?

frankosw wrote: »

Farmers produce food and grow things...the difference between them and the people who manufacture semiconductors is that farmers will be needed forever,technology is it's only worst enemy,industries can be wiped out at a stroke as soon as new technology arrives to make it obsolete.

Whereas farmers never go out of business.

frankosw wrote: »

How many shops sell Vinyl or cassette tapes or Cd's?

How many farmers use oxen to draw ploughs?

frankosw wrote: »

What about the people who made money repairing Tvs and Videos? They still around?

No, they were all taken out and shot as soon as DVDs came along.

Your theory that people are limited to learning how to do just one job in their lifetime is laughable.

srsly78

frankosw wrote: »

The IT industry is far too depedant on glabal market forces and Ireland is hugely vulnerable because of the high cost of wages here as opposed to say Poland,India or Bangladesh.

There are loads of Poles and Indians in Ireland working in IT, funny how that works out.

antoobrien

frankosw wrote: »

The IT industry is far too depedant on glabal market forces and Ireland is hugely vulnerable because of the high cost of wages here as opposed to say Poland,India or Bangladesh.

Having worked with teams based in India regularly for several years, I know that my job is under little threat from that corner. They're great at some things, but when it comes to initiative, creativity or even glancing at the edge of the box, let alone outside it- forget it.

Legal services, management, administration, care work, insurance, financial services and so on are all services industries that contribute greatly to our economy but some how there is the mindset that manufacturing is the real economy.

The article touched on something that is both an economical and sociological issue for example I heard two radio interviews recently one of which said that lack of high quality manufacturing jobs was destroying working class communities in the US. The other interview said high class manufacturing jobs in the US were being replaced by low paid insecure jobs in the services industries ( why a job making something always = better paid more secure wasn't explained? )

It never is in those kinds of interviews because the narrative is always manufacturing = good job... services = poorly paid and insecure job.

As for the argument about the Chinese economy I world refer people to the famed Japanese economy of 20 or 30 years ago they were the stars of the show at the time and apparently going to take over the world economically we were all told that secondary school should have Japanese as a subject. What happened to the Japanese, they were let down by the conformity of their Culture they could not adapt.

The one thing we have in the west is the ability to keep reinventing ourselves ( one we get over the obsession with manufacturing )

maninasia

andrew wrote: »

I think in general people have a manufacturing fetish. It's easy to think that manufacturing is important because it results in something you can actually hold and attribute value to. Even something for something really complicated, like a computer processor, it's easy for people to see how useful such a component is. But take software, which can be equally complicated, and I think people automatically consider it to be less valuable, on an intrinsic level. And so you get a situation in which people clamour for a return to/the maintenance of a manufacturing sector, even in countries which no longer have a comparative advantage in manufacturing. Most people don't even realise that in every advanced economy, the service sector is responsible for the largest proportion of GDP.

Maybe the current generation of people will have a greater appreciation for intangible products, especially software, since they won't have any recollection of a time when today's advanced economies were based upon physical manufacturing. Either way, people need to start realising that the 'advanced economies' advantage now lies in their high levels of human capital and ability to manipulate information, not in their ability to mass produce things, or at the very least to mass produce very advanced and high tech things.

All modern manufacturing has a very large service component, from R&D, design, logistics, legal, finance, quality control, technical support, sales and marketing. Manufacturing helps create more unskilled jobs and a wide range of job too, it's not simply the number of jobs that is important. The other advantage for manufacturing jobs in Ireland is that they tend not to depend on foreign language ability so much.

I would love to see the statistics but it's my impression manufacturing jobs and facilities are generally more sticky than services. Of course they can be outsourced and have been, but try outsourcing medical device manufacturing or pharmaceutical manufacturing without having the necessary expertise and quality certification in place for many years. It's so difficult and expensive and risky that companies are loath to do it.

Manufacturing also helps to capture more of the value of a given country's resource. There is a relatively large agricultural sector in Ireland, with a few world leading food processing companies. However much more could be done in terms of small and medium size companies taking advantage of these great raw materials and processing them in Ireland, instead of selling off as commodities on global markets. Much like Ikea could take the relatively cheap lumber in Sweden and turn it into a multi-billion Euro profit maker. When these raw materials are processed and changed to higher value products they not only create manufacturing jobs but many service jobs, either directly in the company or through the spending of the additional earned revenue in the local economy.

There is another point here I want to address, the idea that a manufactured product must be 'advanced' and 'high tech'. Yes it can be nice to have a technology edge, but it is not particularly important for many businesses.

For instance if you look at chocolate or watch manufacturing in Switzerland. They have high and exacting standards, but hardly very high tech.
The same for luxury goods brands such as LV and Prada or Swavorski crystals. Again the quality is usually quite good, but it is not high tech. They also depend a lot on marketing ability and their established reputation of superior quality.

Then you could have organic food manufacturing, again not high tech or particularly advanced but it can command a good price in the market.

There's also the increasing importance of customisation and being nimble and quick to market. This also depends heavily on the above service inputs.

So yes, advanced technology is useful and nice to have, but even if you don't have advanced technology it's not the be all and end all.

im invisible

Read thread title, thought it was about someone in the rubber/ PVC industry,
Manufacuring fetish obscures; other real work.

djpbarry

maninasia wrote: »

I would love to see the statistics but it's my impression manufacturing jobs and facilities are generally more sticky than services. Of course they can be outsourced and have been, but try outsourcing medical device manufacturing or pharmaceutical manufacturing without having the necessary expertise and quality certification in place for many years. It's so difficult and expensive and risky that companies are loath to do it.

I think it probably depends on the nature of the manufacturing operation. A PC assembly line, such as what Dell had in Limerick, I imagine is relatively easily relocated, but something like Intel’s operation in Kildare is monumental and would incur massive costs if relocated.

maninasia wrote: »

There is a relatively large agricultural sector in Ireland, with a few world leading food processing companies. However much more could be done in terms of small and medium size companies taking advantage of these great raw materials and processing them in Ireland, instead of selling off as commodities on global markets.

A number of years ago, there was a lot of interest in Ireland with interfacing agriculture with biotechnology, particularly in the area of bioremediation; that is, processing of waste products and (hopefully) producing something useful. I’m not sure what the current state of affairs is.

maninasia wrote: »

There is another point here I want to address, the idea that a manufactured product must be 'advanced' and 'high tech'.

Not necessarily high-tech, just innovative.

Scortho

What some people are missing is the fact that high tech jobs create jobs in other sectors to a greater extent than low end jobs.
For example the development of the new Kerry Foods food innovation site in Naas will provide 400 construction jobs.

The site itself will employ 900 employees, most of whom will be high end graduates. The average salaries for each worker is around €83,000. Thats a lot of spending power that these people will bring to the Naas area. Its estimated that it will also create 1100 jobs around the kildare region through support services, restaurants shops etc. The low end jobs that people have mentioned are missing.

Pottler

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not sure it should be pointed out to him that were it not for such people, he wouldn't be able to have this discussion.

And if It wasn't for the manual workers, there'd be no building to house the servers in. There needs to be a balance between export led manufacturing, manual and service workers and High-tech workers. Sadly, we seem fixated on assisting the high tech/pharma sector while neglecting all the rest.