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the culture of military obsession

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    #92
    Topper Harley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Topper Harley


    GRMA wrote: »
    Youre still part of an organization which does kill people. Collective responsibility.

    Sure what you say there makes me wonder why armies even have guns! :rolleyes:

    Sure as long as you get your kicks and a pension what matter if thousands of innocents die in an unjustified illegal war?

    Talk about selfish!

    Would you be such a bleeding heart if we were talking about these organisations and their actions in Libya and Somalia? And then what about their inaction in Rwanda? Was that right?

    I understand your opposition at these current wars but your anger is misplaced. Although I'm sure it's easier to call the soldiers on the ground killers rather than question those who made the decisions at the top. And god-forbid, even be open to just the possibility that there was some justification for these wars.
    MikeMichael wrote: »
    Hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq, millions more refugees and a state completely ruined. This is the result of the armies of British and American troops. It probably works out as at least one death per solider. Doesn't matter if the pulled the trigger. The guys loading up the F18 for an airstrike is as culpable as anyone.

    I went to Iraq before America showed up. It was a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies with rivers made of chocolate, where children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles. :rolleyes:

    Just to be clear, I'm not a supporter of the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq, but I don't hold pablomakaveli personally responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. And I believe that there were some good reasons for the coalition to go into these countries, even if I don't think those reasons actually justified an invasion.


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    #93
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    Topper Harley wrote: »
    Would you be such a bleeding heart if we were talking about these organisations and their actions in Libya and Somalia? And then what about their inaction in Rwanda? Was that right?

    military intervention is different from invasion and occupation for the sole benefit of the united states. They are not in afghanistan for the afghan's wellbeing.
    They are there, as they kindly and repeadetly remind us all, for the sake of america's security. They wouldn't possibly have the support at home if it was americans dying just to help foreigners.


    Which brings us back to the relentless propaganda in american culture. their love of the military is also entwined with their blossoming nationalism, which they masquarade as 'patriotism'.


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    #94
    Killer Wench
    Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭Killer Wench


    I'm the descendant of slaves. The only ones that fought for "my freedom" were those fighting in the Civil War. I do not prescribe to the notion that those in the military now, are over there fighting for my freedom. I have and will continue to object to that notion. Nor do I blindly call anyone who has worn the uniform a hero as I know of many cases involving gang members in the military who used their training to kill civilians and cops, and some active duty soldiers pimped out a group of teenage girls for money.

    Having said that, I was born on a military installation to a father who was an officer in the military. I grew up on military bases and went to school with other military dependents. My grandfather was a WWII veteran, my great uncle was a WWI veteran, and my uncles served in Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf War. I even began the application for a commission into the military but was disqualified due to my anxiety disorder. I now have many friends who are veterans or who are married to members of the military so it remains a huge part of my life.

    Military and war have provided the greatest defining moments of American history, identity, and governance. Our consumerism is an obsession. Our reliance on cellphones, social media, instant gratification, and our car culture are obsessions. Our respect for the military isn't an obsession, but more of an acknowledgement that only 1% of a population of 330 million people has worn the uniform of the US military, and that those individuals not only may sacrifice life or limb, but they make sacrifices that affect their families and lives while they are bound to their contracts.

    I remember phone calls from my uncle serving in Iraq and listening to shells hitting the ground not far from where they all slept. My dad was sent to Japan on an unaccompanied tour and I didn't see him for nearly a year; as an adult, this separation may not seem so rough but for a 9 year old, it was hard for me to grasp that my dad couldn't come home to visit me for the holidays. Between K-8, I attended six different elementary schools, and lived in four different towns across multiple states. My older sisters had it worse than I did; my eldest sister even attended three different schools within one academic year. I think many Americans understand that it isn't just the military member who sacrifices, but also their families who suffer while they wait for their husband or father to return home.

    Yesterday was Veteran's Day and today is the federal government's official acknowledgement of Veteran's Day, so many state and federal buildings are closed, and kids are out of school. That is the reason why there has been a bump of activity focused on the military; I guess you may call it Poppy Day or Remembrance Day.


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    #95
    griffdaddy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭griffdaddy


    Just back from the USA. Found it strange that they have exclusive lounges for people serving in the armed forces and that all military personnel in uniform get to board planes before anybody else.


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    #96
    Topper Harley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Topper Harley


    Leftist wrote: »
    military intervention is different from invasion and occupation for the sole benefit of the united states. They are not in afghanistan for the afghan's wellbeing.
    They are there, as they kindly and repeadetly remind us all, for the sake of america's security. They wouldn't possibly have the support at home if it was americans dying just to help foreigners.


    Which brings us back to the relentless propaganda in american culture. their love of the military is also entwined with their blossoming nationalism, which they masquarade as 'patriotism'.

    Are they not entitled to ensure their own security?


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    #97
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    Yup, Pol Pot was a teacher. Lovely man.

    So was Himmler. Ye can see a pattern there allright.


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    #98
    Killer Wench
    Registered Users Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭Killer Wench


    griffdaddy wrote: »
    Just back from the USA. Found it strange that they have exclusive lounges for people serving in the armed forces and that all military personnel in uniform get to board planes before anybody else.

    When the veterans returned to the US after Vietnam, they walked into crowds of people who ripped at their hair, spat in their faces, and called them baby killers. Years later, we realized that we failed that generation of veterans and now we are overcompensating for this generation. There is also a guilt associated with it because the Vietnam veterans were drafted into that war, and the guys/gals fighting now have volunteered. Because it is a volunteer force, we now have the smallest percentage of Americans who have fought in a present day conflict. I know people who have had five to six deployments over the last ten years. Depending on the branch, that could be four to sixteen months away from your family serving in a conflict zone.

    Those exclusive lounges are part of the USO, an organization dedicated to serving our military; it is supposed to be a safe place where military personnel can rest between departures. Some of the people waiting are those who are deploying or have just deployed, and it may be their first opportunity to clean up, call home, or just begin the re-integration process.


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    #99
    griffdaddy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭griffdaddy


    Killer Wench wrote: »
    When the veterans returned to the US after Vietnam, they walked into crowds of people who ripped at their hair, spat in their faces, and called them baby killers. Years later, we realized that we failed that generation of veterans and now we are overcompensating for this generation. There is also a guilt associated with it because the Vietnam veterans were drafted into that war, and the guys/gals fighting now have volunteered. Because it is a volunteer force, we now have the smallest percentage of Americans who have fought in a present day conflict. I know people who have had five to six deployments over the last ten years. Depending on the branch, that could be four to sixteen months away from your family serving in a conflict zone.

    Those exclusive lounges are part of the USO, an organization dedicated to serving our military; it is supposed to be a safe place where military personnel can rest between departures. Some of the people waiting are those who are deploying or have just deployed, and it may be their first opportunity to clean up, call home, or just begin the re-integration process.

    Fair enough, I wasn't saying it was necessarily a bad thing. I was just surprised firstly that these facilities existed and secondly that there were so many soldiers around the place. I've never been in a country where such a large percentage of the population is involved in the armed forces. (I've never been in a country with such a big population either though)


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    #100
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,238 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    First time I've ever heard a USO termed an 'executive lounge.' But they do provide free soft drinks and hot dogs.

    That said, the USOs in Houston and Ontario are very nice. They vary. The one in SFO is pretty small, SJC used to be a portacabin outside the terminal.
    MikeMichael wrote: »
    Ireland and other non war mongering states who are purely defence based or involved in peacekeeping.

    Fair enough about the drafts, my spit is only reserved for those who actively chose to fight for US interests and those involved in war crimes.

    Interesting statement. Are you implying that all US interests are on the level of war crimes?
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Kosoco?

    Hilarious.

    Shows how little you know. What was going on in Kovoso was ethnic cleansing mostly being done by ethnic Albanians against Serb civilians and the subsequent "humanitarian intervention" was an excuse to break up what was left of Yugoslavia.

    FWIW, HRW apparently disagrees with you.
    http://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/kosovo98/timeline.shtml
    "the vast majority of the violations over the past year are attributable to the Serbian police or Yugoslav Army"

    And similarly, I don't think there's any major doubt about the necessity of intervention in 1995. How many massacres happened before Deliberate Force, and how many after? The US tried to take a back seat in Libya as well, but the combined European forces seemed to be unable to defeat a second-rate North African power without US help. They started running out of ammunition in the first week.

    Face it, the European militaries need help to deal with problems on their front door.


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    #101
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,238 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I was just surprised firstly that these facilities existed and secondly that there were so many soldiers around the place. I've never been in a country where such a large percentage of the population is involved in the armed forces.

    0.7% of the population is a large percentage? (Hence a lot of 'we are the 1% signs you may see soldiers holding up on Facebook etc).
    It's not much higher than the UK's percentage of military-of-population. (0.6%).

    It may depend on what airport you were at. Atlanta, for example, is going to have a hugely disproportionate amount of soldiers because it's the main Army basic training facility and also the main point of entry for troops returning from overseas deployments.


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    #102
    griffdaddy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭griffdaddy


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    0.7% of the population is a large percentage? (Hence a lot of 'we are the 1% signs you may see soldiers holding up on Facebook etc).
    It's not much higher than the UK's percentage of military-of-population. (0.6%).

    It may depend on what airport you were at. Atlanta, for example, is going to have a hugely disproportionate amount of soldiers because it's the main Army basic training facility and also the main point of entry for troops returning from overseas deployments.

    You're right, it must have been the airport I was in (Charlotte). I see now from wikipedia that it's a joint civilian and military airport. Didn't know the percentage was so low, always assumed it would be way higher.


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    #103
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    MikeMichael wrote: »
    But those "warriors" are pro war themselves (they signed up to fight for money) and are the instruments of war. Spitting on them is fair enough when you consider what they got up to.

    You have to remember that many of the Vietnam soldiers were young men in their late teens and early twenties who had been drafted into the army. It was America's folly to get involved and some dreadful decisions and atrocities occurred, but these young guys were the one's to take the blame. It had to have been a most traumatic experience for anyone involved and then to be treated like dirt when they came home must have been the final insult. Their country let them down badly.


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    #104
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,238 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Well, the other thing is that you'll see soldiers at airports simply because they're getting from A to B in a very large country. I went to a training course in Fort Knox, it took me three days of hard driving to get there, not a drive I like to make for routine visits. You will not so often see soldiers at such places in Ireland or France because it's quite easy to go from base to base by car. You'll see a fair few Canadian soldiers at Canadian airports for the same reason.
    America still has a greater enthusiasm for militarism than most of Europe. This is most likely because they haven't been fought over and flattened less than seventy years ago.

    Australia generally avoided being flattened as well, but you couldn't consider them particularly militaristic. That said, they revere their armed forces to an extent which makes the US look kindof apathetic. Their national war memorial is directly lined up with the Prime Minister's door, and it would take an extremely ballsy person to disparage an Australian serviceman on ANZAC Day, which is treated almost as a religious event there. What they do have in common with the US, though, is that both have had a fair few dozen men die in far-flung places of the world doing what their democratically elected governments believe to be in their national interest. And those who didn't die, particularly seventy years ago, left home for the duration. Americans and Aussies both would leave and not see home turf for three or four years at a time. British, German, French etc soldiers could all go home on occasion. The personal sacrifice is considered hugely important, despite the lack of bombs dropped on the country.


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    #105
    MikeMichael
    Site Banned Posts: 42 ✭MikeMichael


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    First time I've ever heard a USO termed an 'executive lounge.' But they do provide free soft drinks and hot dogs.

    That said, the USOs in Houston and Ontario are very nice. They vary. The one in SFO is pretty small, SJC used to be a portacabin outside the terminal.



    Interesting statement. Are you implying that all US interests are on the level of war crimes?



    FWIW, HRW apparently disagrees with you.
    http://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/kosovo98/timeline.shtml
    "the vast majority of the violations over the past year are attributable to the Serbian police or Yugoslav Army"

    And similarly, I don't think there's any major doubt about the necessity of intervention in 1995. How many massacres happened before Deliberate Force, and how many after? The US tried to take a back seat in Libya as well, but the combined European forces seemed to be unable to defeat a second-rate North African power without US help. They started running out of ammunition in the first week.

    Face it, the European militaries need help to deal with problems on their front door.

    The Iraq war was an illegal war so anybody involved in it is a war criminal. The whole area of the legality of wars is fairly shady but nearly every war the US has been involved in it has been the aggressor and it has used its power to the detriment of smaller nations.

    Using smaller, volatile nations as a proxy battleground for the ideological battles with Russia: absolutely vile. Then you have the past couple of decades with hundreds of thousands dead so they can play war games and protect US oil interests in the middle east. I went around with a smile on my face the on September 11th because it was finally a tiny fraction of pain they have inflicted coming home to roost.
    irish people recognise and are very sensitive to any imperialism and this is what the USA is involved in. It is about conquering other states and using them for your own benefit. The rights of the inhabitants go out the window when anything can be justified as colateral damage. Any soldier that willinngly gets involved in an imperial conquest deserves a horrible death. I do enjoy seeing IED videos on youtube and knowing that some bully got a black eye.


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    #106
    Local-womanizer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Local-womanizer


    MikeMichael wrote: »

    The Iraq war was an illegal war so anybody involved in it is a war criminal. The whole area of the legality of wars is fairly shady but nearly every war the US has been involved in it has been the aggressor and it has used its power to the detriment of smaller nations.

    Using smaller, volatile nations as a proxy battleground for the ideological battles with Russia: absolutely vile. Then you have the past couple of decades with hundreds of thousands dead so they can play war games and protect US oil interests in the middle east. I went around with a smile on my face the on September 11th because it was finally a tiny fraction of pain they have inflicted coming home to roost.
    irish people recognise and are very sensitive to any imperialism and this is what the USA is involved in. It is about conquering other states and using them for your own benefit. The rights of the inhabitants go out the window when anything can be justified as colateral damage. Any soldier that willinngly gets involved in an imperial conquest deserves a horrible death. I do enjoy seeing IED videos on youtube and knowing that some bully got a black eye.

    One classy individual.

    I suppose you find it hilarious when the Taliban strap explosives to mentally retarded children and send them in to crowded market places?

    Or when they throw acid in girls faces for going to school, or behead teachers for wanting to teach?


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    #107
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,238 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    MikeMichael wrote: »
    The Iraq war was an illegal war so anybody involved in it is a war criminal.

    You have an interesting take on the criminal justice system which, fortunately, is not adhered to by any courts.
    Any soldier that willinngly gets involved in an imperial conquest deserves a horrible death. I do enjoy seeing IED videos on youtube and knowing that some bully got a black eye.

    So you're one of those who will happily let others take the risks for you as long as you can watch the result safely over the Internet?


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    #108
    MikeMichael
    Site Banned Posts: 42 ✭MikeMichael


    I would take the risks if they turned up in my area. I'd probably be the one making the explosives if I had a gang of braindead deep south 20 year olds going around terrorising my town.


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    #109
    Topper Harley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Topper Harley


    MikeMichael wrote: »
    I went around with a smile on my face the on September 11th because it was finally a tiny fraction of pain they have inflicted coming home to roost.

    Any soldier that willinngly gets involved in an imperial conquest deserves a horrible death. I do enjoy seeing IED videos on youtube and knowing that some bully got a black eye.

    Well thanks for clearing that up for us. I think you've shown us all what type of person you are and we can leave it at that, happy in the knowledge that we don't give a fuck what you think about anything.

    By the way, that's one very strange high horse you're on there. :rolleyes:


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    #110
    MikeMichael
    Site Banned Posts: 42 ✭MikeMichael


    Local-womanizer wrote: »
    One classy individual.

    I suppose you find it hilarious when the Taliban strap explosives to mentally retarded children and send them in to crowded market places?

    Or when they throw acid in girls faces for going to school, or behead teachers for wanting to teach?

    No, I despise the taliban.


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    #111
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,852 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Local-womanizer wrote: »
    One classy individual.

    I suppose you find it hilarious when the Taliban strap explosives to mentally retarded children and send them in to crowded market places?

    Or when they throw acid in girls faces for going to school, or behead teachers for wanting to teach?

    Do you find it hilarious when the Americans or British drop bombs on civilians?

    Or dump depleted uranium on them thereby causing deformities to unborn kids?


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    #112
    Local-womanizer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Local-womanizer


    MikeMichael wrote: »

    No, I despise the taliban.

    Let you laugh at their exploits online when it comes to killing Isaf soldiers?

    What if it was an Irish soldier killed, would you think the same thing?


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    #113
    MikeMichael
    Site Banned Posts: 42 ✭MikeMichael


    Topper Harley wrote: »
    Well thanks for clearing that up for us. I think you've shown us all what type of person you are and we can leave it at that, happy in the knowledge that we don't give a fuck what you think about anything.

    By the way, that's one very strange high horse you're on there. :rolleyes:

    Why are you saying "we". You don't speak for everybody you nut. That is the hallmark of somebody unsure in themselve and wants to imagine them being part of a group.


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    #114
    MikeMichael
    Site Banned Posts: 42 ✭MikeMichael


    Local-womanizer wrote: »
    Let you laugh at their exploits online when it comes to killing Isaf soldiers?

    What if it was an Irish soldier killed, would you think the same thing?

    I like to see a warmonger get his comeuppace. I don't care who it comes from to be honest. If an Irish soldier flew thousands of miles away to some foreign place to get stuck into some locals and start a fight then I'd be delighted to see him be relieved of his legs.


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    #115
    Topper Harley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Topper Harley


    MikeMichael wrote: »
    Why are you saying "we". You don't speak for everybody you nut. That is the hallmark of somebody unsure in themselve and wants to imagine them being part of a group.

    Spot on there. Well done again. :rolleyes:


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    #116
    czx
    Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    MikeMichael wrote: »
    I would take the risks if they turned up in my area. I'd probably be the one making the explosives if I had a gang of braindead deep south 20 year olds going around terrorising my town.

    Well you wouldn't have the Taliban's help, apparently.


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    #117
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,238 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    MikeMichael wrote: »
    I would take the risks if they turned up in my area. I'd probably be the one making the explosives if I had a gang of braindead deep south 20 year olds going around terrorising my town.

    Ah, OK. So you don't lack courage, just the personal sacrifice involved in leaving your home, friends and family for a year in order to do what you feel needs doing?

    Have you at least partaken in operations by groups such as Concern, MSF, WHO etc in various less-stable areas? (And no, Cork doesn't count)

    NTM


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    #118
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,238 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    MikeMichael wrote: »
    I like to see a warmonger get his comeuppace. I don't care who it comes from to be honest. If an Irish soldier flew thousands of miles away to some foreign place to get stuck into some locals and start a fight then I'd be delighted to see him be relieved of his legs.

    Do you have an opinion on this piece by the Dutch Chief of the Armed Forces explaining why he joined the military?

    http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_van_uhm_why_i_chose_a_gun.html


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    #119
    Local-womanizer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Local-womanizer


    MikeMichael wrote: »

    I like to see a warmonger get his comeuppace. I don't care who it comes from to be honest. If an Irish soldier flew thousands of miles away to some foreign place to get stuck into some locals and start a fight then I'd be delighted to see him be relieved of his legs.

    So the 7 Irish soldiers currently deployed in Afghanistan, you wouldn't care if they were seriously injured?

    ISAF are trying to rebuild a country, through building infrastructure, which the Taliban systematically destroy as it doesn't fit in with their beliefs. Most civilians in Afghanistan want some sort of normal existence. That includes education, which the Taliban oppose.


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    #120
    MikeMichael
    Site Banned Posts: 42 ✭MikeMichael


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Ah, OK. So you don't lack courage, just the personal sacrifice involved in leaving your home, friends and family for a year in order to do what you feel needs doing?

    Have you at least partaken in operations by groups such as Concern, MSF, WHO etc in various less-stable areas? (And no, Cork doesn't count)

    NTM

    What are you one about? Would I win your respect if I went to Thailand for a month and started kicking the **** out of the locals for not having the same values as me? I could show courage and sacrifice in teh process, honourable traits.

    I'd rather get on with my life here at home, travel when I can and try and do my best to learn about other cultures and enjoy our differences. Not go to war with them so I can have cheaper fuel for my car.


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    #121
    MikeMichael
    Site Banned Posts: 42 ✭MikeMichael


    Local-womanizer wrote: »
    So the 7 Irish soldiers currently deployed in Afghanistan, you wouldn't care if they were seriously injured?

    ISAF are trying to rebuild a country, through building infrastructure, which the Taliban systematically destroy as it doesn't fit in with their beliefs. Most civilians in Afghanistan want some sort of normal existence. That includes education, which the Taliban oppose.

    They should just leave and let the locals sort it out themselves. You can't force a country in change from the outside. Not without a permanent and intrusive military prescence. If that is there aim then surely they should be in half the world spreading their democracy and western infrastructure to all the third world countries.


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