Acht na dTeangachta a obairt

somairle

Whilst I admire the OPs enthusiasm and drive for Irish I can't help thinking what a waste of time it is badgering the council, dublin bus etc about signage. I don't think people being able to read 'sráid grafton' or 'workmen at work' in Irish does anything practical for people using the language. The point of a sign is to covey information, it does that in English and everyone can understand. The fact Irish isn't used without the Act or 'enthusiasts' ensuring compliance show there isn't a natural demand for it.

On the other hand I can see signage does create the effect of aspiring to bilingualism but there fact is the majority of us are not bilingual, I'd rather see Irish campaigners time and enthusiasm go into teaching others to speak Irish, and then perhaps through genuine natural demand signs will actually be needed.

I can't help but think 'signs.... it's a sign for gods sake who actually cares'. The fact that some people do care enough to complain I applaud their commitment, I honestly do choose to read the Irish on the bus signs but I don't think ensuring it is there does much other than create the illusion in our minds that Irish is all around us, and p*ss some people off along the way.

Who knows? I could be wrong and all this signage may actually put Irish into the consciousness of more people and hopefully see more people use it. I'm skeptical though

An Coilean

somairle wrote: »

The fact Irish isn't used without the Act or 'enthusiasts' ensuring compliance show there isn't a natural demand for it.

Question, if no one says anything about it you could say there is no 'natural demand' for it, if someone does say something about it, they can be labeled an 'enthusiast'. So what is natural demand exactly?

There seems to be this expectation that things should just spontaneously happen, and if it does'nt then its somehow 'artifical'.
This is government we are talking about, nothing spontaneously happens, its all policy decisions, It's all artifical! If you don't like the decisions made, you complain/protest etc etc to get what you want. Thats how it works in English, thats how it should work in Irish.

somairle

I just think they produce signs in English because the target is to get the information out there in a language everyone understands. Also the people in question in these departments didnt think to include Irish, if more people used Irish actively within the civil service then perhaps they'd think to use it. As it is an Act has to force them too in most cases, that's not what I call natural.

Look at the private sector, next to no Irish is used because the customers & employees don't use or value it enough for it to be included. It would be the same in the civil service if it wasnt for law. That's the reality for me.

I love seeig Irish by the way, I just prefer hearing it and using it. Point taken on the enthusiast lable

Grudaire

somairle wrote: »

Look at the private sector, next to no Irish is used because the customers & employees don't use or value it enough for it to be included. It would be the same in the civil service if it wasnt for law. That's the reality for me.

Look around and you'd be surprised.

Signage in many shops are bilingual...
Windows is available in Irish..
etc

You see what you want to see!

An Coilean

somairle wrote: »

I just think they produce signs in English because the target is to get the information out there in a language everyone understands. Also the people in question in these departments didnt think to include Irish, if more people used Irish actively within the civil service then perhaps they'd think to use it. As it is an Act has to force them too in most cases, that's not what I call natural.

Indeed that is one of the aims of signage, but there are plenty of examples of bilingual communities in the world where one or both sides know the others language to a high degree, monolingual signage would serve to get the information out there, but it would still be seen as an imposition of one language over the other, despite both communities still being able to understand the information presented.

The model you suggest is entirly unsatisfactory, the decision to have monolingual or bilingual signage is based on whether someone in the department thinks to use Irish? This is better how?
You suggest that people within the department should activly use Irish to remind them, forgetting that this is an entirly ad hoc system, that it places excessive onus on people within the department to 'remind' the decision maker to include Irish, would it not be possible to simply lable these Irish speakers in the department as 'enthuasiasts' and in doing so marginalise them?

Look at the private sector, next to no Irish is used because the customers & employees don't use or value it enough for it to be included. It would be the same in the civil service if it wasnt for law. That's the reality for me.

And if customers insist on using Irish with these companies, or complain to them about the lack of Irish, they are labled as enthusiasts and ignored. That is the reality of it for me.

somairle

Yes what I am saying is there are not enough people in the country who use or care to include Irish whether that's in the civil service or private sector, the fact it needs an act is good n supporting the rights of a small minority, but I would prefer people learning, enjoying and using the language rather than discussions on signs. The OP is definately an enthusiast, and I am not sure in the benefits of going on a crusade to ensure the acts are complied with when there are millions of people not giving a hoot. I'd just be more positive about it if all this collective energy went into putting on free classes and building speakers from the ground up, and then when we have a bigger core of the population using it the council, spar, McDonald's, whoever, will use it out of necessity.

I appreciate your argument, I just can't help but think while we talk about signs and acts and websites and companies Irish is weakening in the Gaeltacht. I just think our energies or too much in favour of supporting speakers rights, then strengthening and growing Irish. If we are not careful there will no speakers to support

An Coilean

somairle wrote: »

Yes what I am saying is there are not enough people in the country who use or care to include Irish whether that's in the civil service or private sector, the fact it needs an act is good n supporting the rights of a small minority, but I would prefer people learning, enjoying and using the language rather than discussions on signs. The OP is definately an enthusiast, and I am not sure in the benefits of going on a crusade to ensure the acts are complied with when there are millions of people not giving a hoot. I'd just be more positive about it if all this collective energy went into putting on free classes and building speakers from the ground up, and then when we have a bigger core of the population using it the council, spar, McDonald's, whoever, will use it out of necessity.

I appreciate your argument, I just can't help but think while we talk about signs and acts and websites and companies Irish is weakening in the Gaeltacht. I just think our energies or too much in favour of supporting speakers rights, then strengthening and growing Irish. If we are not careful there will no speakers to support

The bit in bold seems to be the central point of your argument, so that is the bit I will refute. And I will do so by comparing Irish in Ireland to Welsh in Wales.

Wales has a much greater proportion of Welsh Speakers than Ireland has Irish speakers. Welsh speakers in Wales make up 20%+ of the Welsh Population, and Welsh is widely used in Wales.
However, what you claim would happen given a larger core af speakers, did not happen in Wales.
In the 60's there was a Language crisis in Wales, Welsh was ignored in public and private life almost totaly. There were areas of the country that were Welsh speaking, specifically in the North of Wales, but those areas were not provided the opportunity to access services in Welsh desipte making up 90% of the population of those areas.
This changed, not by public and private organisations providing Welsh due to some sort of 'natural demand', that had been in place for decades and nothing happened. It changed due to direct action on behalf of the language by Welsh speakers.
The Inspiration for their action was a broadcast called 'The Fate of the Language' by a man called Saunders Lewis who said that to save thr Welsh Language the functioning of Government both local and National should be made impossible without Welsh. Any bill/summons/ etc etc should not be answered unless it was in Welsh, an organisation called the Welsh language Society was formed and they campaigned strongly for Welsh language Rights, often doing gaoltime for their efforts. The result was one Welsh language act after another, the most recent being 2010.

Welsh secured its future by securing language rights for its speakers to use Welsh, rights which were vigorously excersised.

You claim that the best way forward for Irish is to provide more classes, I would disagree. Irish Clases are very widespread, there is plenty of material available for those that want to learn Irish. The problem is that when you do learn Irish, what next? There are plenty of people learning Irish, Irish has a greater proportion of learners to speakers than any other living language. What is needed is the ability to use Irish outside the classroom, not more classrooms.
The state that made it compulsory for everyone to learn is very reluctant to let you use it if you actually do manage to learn it.
Many book shops around the country ilustrate the point and the problem nicely, they almost always stock dictioneries, exampapers, schoolbooks, and learnig guides for learning Irish, but almost never stock books written in Irish. You can buy what you need to learn Irish, but if you do, you can't buy a book in Irish to read. Its a nonsense setup.

As for Irish in the Gaeltacht, its a complex issue, but limiting the role of the Irish language in the life of the country to whatever some mandarin in any given department feels like, will do absoutly nothing for the language either inside or outside the Gaeltacht.

somairle

Ok you make an excellent point about rights and percentage of speakers, I'm willing to take that argument, do a u-turn on the matter & advance my opinion. I think my feelings come from the lack of speakers that when I see people campaigning for signs I think 'hang on, I don't care about a sign, I haven't met anyone who will speak to me in x weeks and that's what matters most to me'

An Coilean

somairle wrote: »

Ok you make an excellent point about rights and percentage of speakers, I'm willing to take that argument, do a u-turn on the matter & advance my opinion. I think my feelings come from the lack of speakers that when I see people campaigning for signs I think 'hang on, I don't care about a sign, I haven't met anyone who will speak to me in x weeks and that's what matters most to me'

I can understand your feelings, if you take a single issue in isolation it can feel a little like fiddeling while Rome burns, but I am confident that the best way to save the Language is to create opportunities for those who have Irish to use it as part of their everyday lives.
Despite what you may think, Irish actually has quite a healthy supply of young people comming through the education system able to speak Irish. There are over 50,000 children in Irish speaking schools this year and they all have or will have a high standard of Irish. The biggest challenge is not turning English speakers into Irish speakers, it is getting people who have Irish to use Irish.
The best way to do this is to provide people with opportunities to use Irish. This can only be done by strenghtening the Language Rights of Irish Speakers and implementing them activly.
A Language can not survive in the classroom alone, it has to be used and be usable out on the streets, and for the normal interactions of everyday life.
It would be nice to think that enough people wanting to speak Irish would mean that organisations will start providing services in Irish, but that has not been the reality till now, nor has it happened in other countries. It will take an organised and motivated group of people to push change and ensure that these services are provided. As this happens, providing services in Irish will become more normal, and private organisations will start to provide services in Irish as it becomes a more necessary part of a companies marketing mix in Ireland.

somairle

Yeah that make sense, I agree there with getting Irish speakers to actually use Irish so I can see how a motivated group and law could help the language more, that makes sense.

I'd just urge a little caution of the Gaelscoil movement I know 2 people who went to all-Irish primary and then English secondary school, now in their mid 20s their Irish is nowhere near fluent, granted their Irish is better than people who's whole schooling was English, but I'd just urge caution that Gaelscoil figures don't = Irish speakers. One of the guys in question said to me recently that he remembers enjoying the chance to use English whenever he could when he was a kid and when he had the choice to go to Méanscoil he chose to go to the English medium secondary school because he couldn't wait to drop it. Obviously most people wouldn't be that polarised, but he made the point that Irish isn't cool and to remedy that I'd say we need more media in Irish, shows like Ponc4 on TG4 helps address that but can it compete when when Sky has hundreds of English channels?

Also I know he had the chance for Méanscoil but a lot of areas with Bunscoileanna don't have that option, so we need more secondary schools to cater for those who do want to go on and come out fluent

An Coilean

somairle wrote: »

I'd just urge a little caution of the Gaelscoil movement I know 2 people who went to all-Irish primary and then English secondary school, now in their mid 20s their Irish is nowhere near fluent, granted their Irish is better than people who's whole schooling was English, but I'd just urge caution that Gaelscoil figures don't = Irish speakers. One of the guys in question said to me recently that he remembers enjoying the chance to use English whenever he could when he was a kid and when he had the choice to go to Méanscoil he chose to go to the English medium secondary school because he couldn't wait to drop it. Obviously most people wouldn't be that polarised, but he made the point that Irish isn't cool and to remedy that I'd say we need more media in Irish, shows like Ponc4 on TG4 helps address that but can it compete when when Sky has hundreds of English channels?

I'm well aware of that, a Language is not like riding a bike, I have met plenty of people who grew up as native Irish speakers who have next to no Irish due to lack of use, hense why it is so important that people have the opportunity not just to learn Irish, but to use Irish as part of their everyday lives. No doubt some of the people that went through the Gaelscoil system will not be interested in using irish when they leave school, but more of them will, and it is them and others interested in using the language that the creation of opportunities to use Irish are aimed at.

As it stands it is not easy to access services through Irish, even with the state, they often don't exist even if they should acording to the law, and where they do exist they are often below par when compared to their English equilivant. It should not be expected of people who want to use Irish that they should have to fight to get a service or put up with substandard services in Irish. That is why an organised group is needed to implement their rights and pave the way for others to access these services without having to fight their case to get them.

somairle

Yeah thats comes full circle then in your argument about state services being there to support people who want to continue using Irish outside school. I never thought when I entered this thread I'd end up agreeing with you, but there we go that's discussion, I wouldn't be so stubborn as to continue arguing a point when it has been defeated with logical argument.

Feathers

An Coilean wrote: »

Irish Clases are very widespread, there is plenty of material available for those that want to learn Irish. The problem is that when you do learn Irish, what next? There are plenty of people learning Irish, Irish has a greater proportion of learners to speakers than any other living language. What is needed is the ability to use Irish outside the classroom, not more classrooms.

This is the bit that rings home with me most. Currently living in London & said I'd finally going to improve my Irish (rather than waiting til when I'm next living in Ireland). When I'm home I love that the opportunity to see Irish even is there, and that I know the Irish is correct.

The trouble with a language with more learners than speakers is that if you are learning, you're more likely to encounter bad Irish than good! Which is something you see only with minority languages.

With regard building up a base, I think you see it too with accessibility legislation and digital projects (websites/mobile apps, etc.). People in need of the support the legislation provides supposedly make up to 10% of customer base, but a lot of companies aren't willing to put the effort into this additional work accept on the threat of a hefty fine.