Is austerity urgent for our survival?

Hawkeye123

While many in our country complain about "austerity" - it is arguable that we have not had any austerity yet. In order to be austere, one should live within ones means and since we are not doing that - one could ligitimately argue that we are in fact being recklessly inaustere.

Be that as it may, it is not the purpose of this thread.

The scary truth is this: We can pay our debts with massive austerity now but supposing the Americans decide to clamp down on their multinational companies which are filtering their declared profits through our low corporate tax system? With the incentive of our low tax profit filtration system nullified - they would leave en-masse. If that were to happen we could not repay our debts even with massive austerity and even excluding the bank debts. The result of this would be unimaginable for our country - we would essentially become a third world country with an economy like that of Haiti.

The government want Europe to forgive us our debts, but this is not a policy because we cannot control weather others forgive us or debts or not. The only thing we can control is austerity and taxation. The problem with taxation is it makes us uncompetitive. True austerity i.e. living within our means is therefore the only option and even that may not be possible if the yanks call their multinationals to account on tax issues.

Therefore, not only is gigantic austerity necessary - it is so urgent it should have been happening years ago. No matter what the government does now, it is probably too late. I don`t care though, my money is on another continent.

Nody

It's not the tax from US that they are hiding via Ireland but the tax from EU countries (well Ireland and Holland).

_Kaiser_

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

While many in our country complain about "austerity" - it is arguable that we have not had any austerity yet. In order to be austere, one should live within ones means and since we are not doing that - one could ligitimately argue that we are in fact being recklessly inaustere.

I'll agree with you there. A large portion of the population have yet to feel any real pressure - they still drive their expensive cars, go on holidays and have a decent social life. These are also the ones on this very board who think that they are now entitled to preach about "living within your means", and think they are somehow entitled to decide how "their" taxes are spent by those most in need of the social welfare system :rolleyes:

The ones that "austerity" HAS affected are the recently unemployed with debts that don't just disappear with their jobs, the young, and those in the 30-60k bracket who are expected to fund the entire operation. Side note: I have no sympathy for those ~10% of unemployed who have no interest in working, even in the "good times". Those should be identified and incentivised to get off their asses rather than the indiscriminate slash and burn tactics employed so far.

The scary truth is this: We can pay our debts with massive austerity now but supposing the Americans decide to clamp down on their multinational companies which are filtering their declared profits through our low corporate tax system? With the incentive of our low tax profit filtration system nullified - they would leave en-masse. If that were to happen we could not repay our debts even with massive austerity and even excluding the bank debts. The result of this would be unimaginable for our country - we would essentially become a third world country with an economy like that of Haiti.

Also agree - this is a very big concern considering how dependent we are on the US multinational sector in this country. If they start upping sticks completely we're fecked - unless Enda and Co expect us all to become farmers maybe?

The government want Europe to forgive us our debts, but this is not a policy because we cannot control weather others forgive us or debts or not. The only thing we can control is austerity and taxation. The problem with taxation is it makes us uncompetitive. True austerity i.e. living within our means is therefore the only option and even that may not be possible if the yanks call their multinationals to account on tax issues.

The government are intent on seemingly continuing on with the failed FF policies that got us into this mess. Aside from more cutbacks to services and those who can ill afford them. Enda seems far more concerned with being a "Good European" than acting in the interests of the people who elected him and his party.

Therefore, not only is gigantic austerity necessary - it is so urgent it should have been happening years ago. No matter what the government does now, it is probably too late. I don`t care though, my money is on another continent.

What's needed is that EVERYONE pays something - and those who CAN pay more, DO pay more.

And no offence OP, but your last sentence sort of devalues your whole opinion I think - The "I'm alright Jack" mentality is one of the key reasons our country is in this mess.

Idbatterim

the Greeks know the meaning of the word austerity, that is what i would call austerity! Iv said it before and Ill say it again, the piss taking (enabled by the government in fairness) is rampant at the top and bottom of society here! at least at the those at the top have got off their ass though and probably got a good education and shown some effort and skills! I have far more more contempt for the leeches at the bottom! those at the top are also paying taxes through the nose...

Hawkeye123

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

These are also the ones on this very board who think that they are now entitled to preach about "living within your means", .

Well. Thats freedom of speech for you.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

The ones that "austerity" HAS affected are the recently unemployed with debts that don't just disappear with their jobs,the young, and those in the 30-60k bracket who are expected to fund the entire operation..

True but we have no choice. Austerity will happen when market reality bites. If we wait that long, we will be out of options. There will be no hope of recovery and there is nothing we will be able to do to salvage the economy. This is why self inflicting austerity on an unimaginable scale immediately is imperitive. The fact that people will suffer is irrelevant given that they will suffer even more if this is not done.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

What's needed is that EVERYONE pays something - and those who CAN pay more, DO pay more...

I disagree. Why should I pay for my neighbours big house, or for the pensions of incompetant bankers or politicians.

not yet

Firstly we need to bring in a 90% tax rate on the pensions of 500k being received by retired bankers.
Secondly we need to tell Europe to fcuk of on 3 billion due next March. The ordinary people of the country did not cause this recession but are asked to shoulder ALL the burden of getting us out of it.

And last but not least we need to tackle SW fraud, even going by government figures it's running at 1 billion plus a year.

Idbatterim

And last but not least we need to tackle SW fraud, even going by government figures it's running at 1 billion plus a year.

I believe people should be financially rewarded for reporting welfare fraud. Obviously only if the claim turns out to be true, following the investigation...

not yet

Idbatterim wrote: »

I believe people should be financially rewarded for reporting welfare fraud. Obviously only if the claim turns out to be true, following the investigation...

Not sure if that's the way to go, but it is something that needs to be really looked at.

Hawkeye123

not yet wrote: »

Firstly we need to bring in a 90% tax rate on the pensions of 500k being received by retired bankers.
Secondly we need to tell Europe to fcuk of on 3 billion due next March. The ordinary people of the country did not cause this recession but are asked to shoulder ALL the burden of getting us out of it.

And last but not least we need to tackle SW fraud, even going by government figures it's running at 1 billion plus a year.

All this would be a good start, followed by massive cuts to public sector pay - starting with the top paid civil servants.

robp

Nody wrote: »

It's not the tax from US that they are hiding via Ireland but the tax from EU countries (well Ireland and Holland).

Is Bulgaria involved as well? Don't they have lower corporation tax than Ireland?

Hawkeye123

robp wrote: »

Is Bulgaria involved as well? Don't they have lower corporation tax than Ireland?

The American multinationals invest in Ireland in preference to Bulgaria for a variety of reasons, not just low corporate tax. The suspicion held by the US and many EU countries that these multinationals over declare their profits in Ireland to avoid paying tax elsewhere are probably justified. The major concern is what happens to our economy if the US decide to conduct international audits on these companies.

TheRealPONeil

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

While many in our country complain about "austerity" -

As I said in Communism for some, pay rises for others!

60% of survey respondents expect a return to salary increases in 2012

Icepick

not yet wrote: »

Secondly we need to tell Europe to fcuk of on 3 billion due next March

What exactly does "Europe" have to do with it and how would it help us?

not yet

Icepick wrote: »

What exactly does "Europe" have to do with it and how would it help us?

Oh yeah I see your point.....

What Europe has to do with it is this, We are facing 3.5 billion in cuts and taxes which will stall the economy at best. If Europe were told the 3 billion will be paid at some point 10 years down the line, it would save a lot of hardship for a lot of people.

frankosw

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

All this would be a good start, followed by massive cuts to public sector pay - starting with the top paid civil servants.

And ou will still expect to have public services?

Tea drinker

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

All this would be a good start, followed by massive cuts to public sector pay - starting with the top paid civil servants.

There's no appetite for this type of thing in Ireland. at least among the people who would actually make the cuts. Plus we are (for the moment) past the point where IMF/EU could pressure us to do so.
The divergence of the top earners and middle earners will increase and the middle income will be expected to shoulder more going forward.
So far there has been little reform of "the most vulnerable in society" as there is also no political will to tackle the issue.
Look at that family on 4k a month who won't pay their rent, judge orders their eviction only to have it appealed. All legal costs borne by us, all rent costs borne by us.

Huge payouts, bonuses, multiple quango seats set to continue for the forseeable future as no one (who matters) wants it to stop, or is physically willing to protest it's stoppage.

Look at DAA boss getting 900k parachute, and this after the shenanigans with Donie and the licensed premises there a few years back.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66403838


But there's no point complaining, Ireland is a great place to live for most Irish people, all the above complaints are just how it is here, and also they see it as success and wish to emulate it. FF are gaining ground again, so yeah absolutley pointless to continue living here.

Gerry Adams is right we should have a border poll to get rid of the border - just not in the way he is thinking of it. We simply aren't fit to either vote or hold office.

Idbatterim

There's no appetite for this type of thing in Ireland. at least among the people who would actually make the cuts. Plus we are (for the moment) past the point where IMF/EU could pressure us to do so.
The divergence of the top earners and middle earners will increase and the middle income will be expected to shoulder more going forward.
So far there has been little reform of "the most vulnerable in society" as there is also no political will to tackle the issue.
Look at that family on 4k a month who won't pay their rent, judge orders their eviction only to have it appealed. All legal costs borne by us, all rent costs borne by us.

agreed, ultimately the electorate are the ones that matter, but there is no party currently in existence, that would do what a lot of us would like to see done (this would benefit everyone) Getting this country back on its feet is of importance to us all regardless if we are Private sector, public sector, unemployed etc! In relation to the the little reform of " the most vulnerable" it is a lot easier politically to allow inflation to reduce the cost than it is to cut the headline rates...

agree with the above, not a chance anything significant will change unless the government are forced to act... If they had made proper cuts / increases when this crisis started, we could be done with the budget cutting at this stage... The uncertainty is one of the huge problems...

tayto lover

To allow the Yanks avail of the low corporate tax rate the taxpayers of Ireland are being bled dry. The fact that they are getting off lightly means that we are being rode.

Scortho

tayto lover wrote: »

To allow the Yanks avail of the low corporate tax rate the taxpayers of Ireland are being bled dry. The fact that they are getting off lightly means that we are being rode.

You have to look at the negative side of increasing corporate tax rate as well. The coin flips both ways.
Look how many people apple in cork employ. What would be the knock on effect if we were to increase the tax on their profits which they run through Ireland: a possible loss of employees, future job creation and the tax that they pay in this country.

In april this year apple announced 500 new jobs.
One third of Apples revenue goes through Ireland. Which they pay tax on. It just so happens that its lower than what they pay in America.

So what if it is?

Do you think these jobs would have been created, as well as the other 2800 people it employs in Cork had we increased our corporate tax rate.

Apple are paying substantial rates on their sites here in Ireland. They contribute a large amount of employer PRSI to the state.

Their employees pay income tax on their earnings here. Their employees spend their income in the local economy, creating jobs in that sector.

And you want to give them the two fingers and tell them to pay more tax, while risking these high tech jobs to the Hollyhill region. Now apply that to all IDA supported companies operating in this country. We'd certainly know the definition of the **** hitting the fan then!

Apple are here as part of their double irish and a Dutch sandwich.
As are Facebook, eli lilly, forest labs, oracle and microsoft.

Below are some links to their recent job creations and investments:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0420/apple-promises-500-new-jobs-for-cork.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/kinsale-main-launch-site-for-eli-lilly-197798.html

http://www.forest-labs.co.uk/about/ (scroll to bottom of page)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/kfideysnidid/rss2/

doccbh

Fiscal rectitude (austerity as such as negative connotation) in the short-term is essential - and the market is already rewarding us for the progress made so far. So, in answer to the question, fiscal is essential in the short-term to restore confidence in the short to medium term, and to allow for sustainable growth in the long-term.

However, the government needs to be more strategic about fiscal rectitude - what is missing is a strategy for lowering cost and improving competitiveness. There should be too central planks of that strategy. First, welfare reform is essential - and urgently needed. Second, greater efficiencies need to be driven in the public sector.

tayto lover

Scortho wrote: »

You have to look at the negative side of increasing corporate tax rate as well. The coin flips both ways.
Look how many people apple in cork employ. What would be the knock on effect if we were to increase the tax on their profits which they run through Ireland: a possible loss of employees, future job creation and the tax that they pay in this country.

In april this year apple announced 500 new jobs.
One third of Apples revenue goes through Ireland. Which they pay tax on. It just so happens that its lower than what they pay in America.

So what if it is?

Do you think these jobs would have been created, as well as the other 2800 people it employs in Cork had we increased our corporate tax rate.

Apple are paying substantial rates on their sites here in Ireland. They contribute a large amount of employer PRSI to the state.

Their employees pay income tax on their earnings here. Their employees spend their income in the local economy, creating jobs in that sector.

And you want to give them the two fingers and tell them to pay more tax, while risking these high tech jobs to the Hollyhill region. Now apply that to all IDA supported companies operating in this country. We'd certainly know the definition of the **** hitting the fan then!

Apple are here as part of their double irish and a Dutch sandwich.
As are Facebook, eli lilly, forest labs, oracle and microsoft.

Below are some links to their recent job creations and investments:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0420/apple-promises-500-new-jobs-for-cork.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/kinsale-main-launch-site-for-eli-lilly-197798.html

http://www.forest-labs.co.uk/about/ (scroll to bottom of page)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/kfideysnidid/rss2/

It will be interesting to see how long these industries will stay tbh. I remember the huge hype regarding Xerox starting up in Dundalk with a huge site and 5 purpose built factories prepared for them. You could kick football on there now.
In fact I would love to see the statistics on the length of time these U.S. industries stay here, how much tax they pay and how much the I.D.A. spends on luring them here. Also I don't believe that an increase of 1 -2 % on the corporate tax rate would make many of them leave. They have a good workforce here and they know it.

doccbh

I think that is exactly the wrong type of attitude. The argument about the workforce has been made for too long - and it is a weak argument; we're good, but not as good as we think we are. Consider Paypal as a recent example - half of the jobs went to employees outside Ireland because of the language skills deficiency. The only way we can improve human capital is through clustering effects and industry-specific human capital investments. Both need to be a central plank of industry policy.

Scortho

tayto lover wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how long these industries will stay tbh. I remember the huge hype regarding Xerox starting up in Dundalk with a huge site and 5 purpose built factories prepared for them. You could kick football on there now.
In fact I would love to see the statistics on the length of time these U.S. industries stay here, how much tax they pay and how much the I.D.A. spends on luring them here. Also I don't believe that an increase of 1 -2 % on the corporate tax rate would make many of them leave. They have a good workforce here and they know it.

From the IDA's own website which I linked to in another thread.
1.6 What is the impact of Foreign Direct Investment on the Irish economy?
Over 1,000 IDA supported companies in Ireland employ over 146,000 people. These companies accounted for exports of over €115 billion and generate €19 billion of expenditure in the economy. The risk:return ratio is to significant to increase the corporate tax rate.

Yes jobs come and go. however last year they created 6000 net jobs.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0712/ida-records-best-job-figures-in-10-years-business.html

doccbh

You also have to take into account the multiplier effect. For each FDI how many jobs are created in related and supporting industries.

tayto lover

doccbh wrote: »

Fiscal rectitude (austerity as such as negative connotation) in the short-term is essential - and the market is already rewarding us for the progress made so far. So, in answer to the question, fiscal is essential in the short-term to restore confidence in the short to medium term, and to allow for sustainable growth in the long-term.

However, the government needs to be more strategic about fiscal rectitude - what is missing is a strategy for lowering cost and improving competitiveness. There should be too central planks of that strategy. First, welfare reform is essential - and urgently needed. Second, greater efficiencies need to be driven in the public sector.

The E.S.B., Bord Gais, all forms of public transport and food have all seen price increases with little action from the Govt to encourage the semi-states to re-consider. Add to that the Property Tax, Water Charges and with the imminent budget tax increases and rises in the U.S.C. Where is the "lowering costs and improving competitiveness" there?

The average worker in both Private and Public Sector is already at the pin of his collar to survive and you want even more austerity ??

Meanwhile the Bankers, Developers and others who caused many of our problems continue to be treated with high wages and huge pensions.

I really do not see any improvements at all and after the budget I expect things to get a lot worse with many small businesses, shops etc closing because nobody has any money left to spend in them due to the lack of Government investment. Unemployment will rise considerably. You cannot tax your way out of a recession as we have been told so often. Is anyone listening?

doccbh

I never suggested raising taxes - I'm talking about cutting costs. And I I believe that significant cost savings can be gained by cutting unemployment and single parent allowances - significantly. Unemployment should be cut by 15-20 percent per year of unemployment. That will provide an appropriate incentive - and the unemployment rate will fall, dramatically

tayto lover wrote: »

The E.S.B., Bord Gais, all forms of public transport and food have all seen price increases with little action from the Govt to encourage the semi-states to re-consider. Add to that the Property Tax, Water Charges and with the imminent budget tax increases and rises in the U.S.C. Where is the "lowering costs and improving competitiveness" there?

The average worker in both Private and Public Sector is already at the pin of his collar to survive and you want even more austerity ??

Meanwhile the Bankers, Developers and others who caused many of our problems continue to be treated with high wages and huge pensions.

I really do not see any improvements at all and after the budget I expect things to get a lot worse with many small businesses, shops etc closing because nobody has any money left to spend in them due to the lack of Government investment. Unemployment will rise considerably. You cannot tax your way out of a recession as we have been told so often. Is anyone listening?

Scortho

tayto lover wrote: »

The E.S.B., Bord Gais, all forms of public transport and food have all seen price increases with little action from the Govt to encourage the semi-states to re-consider. Add to that the Property Tax, Water Charges and with the imminent budget tax increases and rises in the U.S.C. Where is the "lowering costs and improving competitiveness" there?

The average worker in both Private and Public Sector is already at the pin of his collar to survive and you want even more austerity ??

Meanwhile the Bankers, Developers and others who caused many of our problems continue to be treated with high wages and huge pensions.

I really do not see any improvements at all and after the budget I expect things to get a lot worse with many small businesses, shops etc closing because nobody has any money left to spend in them due to the lack of Government investment. Unemployment will rise considerably. You cannot tax your way out of a recession as we have been told so often. Is anyone listening?

Energy rates are rising due to an increase in energy costs and a decrease in the value of the euro.

you want to resolve these problems by increasing the taxes on business.
So who creates the jobs then?
There is no such thing as a free lunch.

tayto lover

doccbh wrote: »

I never suggested raising taxes - I'm talking about cutting costs. And I I believe that significant cost savings can be gained by cutting unemployment and single parent allowances - significantly. Unemployment should be cut by 15-20 percent per year of unemployment. That will provide an appropriate incentive - and the unemployment rate will fall, dramatically

Where is the job creation?
You want to cut SW on people who are barely existing. How will they feed their kids or heat their homes with less? An incentive for what exactly?

tayto lover

Scortho wrote: »

Energy rates are rising due to an increase in energy costs and a decrease in the value of the euro.

you want to resolve these problems by increasing the taxes on business.
So who creates the jobs then?
There is no such thing as a free lunch.

These semi-states are making massive profits. Surely they could do with a bit less until we are in a better position than we are now. If the Govt had a will or a care for their people they could insist on prices remaining as they are for the immediate future.
The only people getting free lunches are either politicians or bankers as far as I can see.

Scortho

tayto lover wrote: »

These semi-states are making massive profits. Surely they could do with a bit less until we are in a better position than we are now. If the Govt had a will or a care for their people they could insist on prices remaining as they are for the immediate future.
The only people getting free lunches are either politicians or bankers as far as I can see.

So to compensate for the high prices charged by semi-states you wish to increase corporate tax on all companies?

tayto lover

Scortho wrote: »

So to compensate for the high prices charged by semi-states you wish to increase corporate tax on all companies?

I genuinely believe that a 1 or 2 percent increase would not lead to them upping and leaving.
The semi-states are a separate entity. The Govt can prevent them from rising prices unnecessarily. They are already making huge profits.

DoesNotCompute

not yet wrote: »

Oh yeah I see your point.....

What Europe has to do with it is this, We are facing 3.5 billion in cuts and taxes which will stall the economy at best. If Europe were told the 3 billion will be paid at some point 10 years down the line, it would save a lot of hardship for a lot of people.

No. The 3.5 billion in cuts is necessary to help reduce the difference between what we take in in taxes, and what we spend. Europe doesn't factor into this equation. Banking debt doesn't factor into this equation. The 3.5 billion in budget cuts and taxes are needed to balance the books.

General Atomic

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

No. The 3.5 billion in cuts is necessary to help reduce the difference between what we take in in taxes, and what we spend. Europe doesn't factor into this equation. Banking debt doesn't factor into this equation. The 3.5 billion in budget cuts and taxes are needed to balance the books.

Why is it necessary to balance the books? Why is servicing our debt more important than helping people in need in our own country? Look to Spain, Greece and, to a lesser extent, the UK if you want to see the effects of austerity in the name of debt reduction; their economies are in the toilet and continuing to fall.

Icepick

tayto lover wrote: »

To allow the Yanks avail of the low corporate tax rate the taxpayers of Ireland are being bled dry. The fact that they are getting off lightly means that we are being rode.

They owe us exactly 0 and that is what we would get if they don't invest here.

Scortho

tayto lover wrote: »

I genuinely believe that a 1 or 2 percent increase would not lead to them upping and leaving.
The semi-states are a separate entity. The Govt can prevent them from rising prices unnecessarily. They are already making huge profits.

The thing about increasing the corporate tax rate is the negative signal it would send. It forms a key part of our FDI strategy. It acts as a compensator to the multinationals for investing here. It has helped create 1000s of jobs in the country. By increasing it, we become less competitive. COmpanies carry out sustainability reviews on average every ten years. What would that signal tell them to do?
I know it'd tell me to get tha feck out of Ireland! they've gone crazy!

Corporation tax took in around 3.5 billion last year.
An extra 1.5 % would yield around 420 m.

So for the sake of 420m you want to put the jobs of 1000s of people at risk, while ignoring the excessive overspending in areas such as welfare?

tayto lover

Icepick wrote: »

They owe us exactly 0 and that is what we would get if they don't invest here.

Of course they do. We supply a good highly trained and highly educated workforce.
Don't sell yourself so short.
They are not here just for the low taxes and because they like us.

maninasia

Scortho wrote: »

The thing about increasing the corporate tax rate is the negative signal it would send. It forms a key part of our FDI strategy. It acts as a compensator to the multinationals for investing here. It has helped create 1000s of jobs in the country. By increasing it, we become less competitive. COmpanies carry out sustainability reviews on average every ten years. What would that signal tell them to do?
I know it'd tell me to get tha feck out of Ireland! they've gone crazy!

Corporation tax took in around 3.5 billion last year.
An extra 1.5 % would yield around 420 m.

So for the sake of 420m you want to put the jobs of 1000s of people at risk, while ignoring the excessive overspending in areas such as welfare?

Exactly, it's a strawman. What needs to happen is that other costs have to come down to make the local economy more competitive, rates, power, minimum wage, professional costs.

Bring the costs down, and make an incentive plan to setup businesses in Ireland (whether foreign/locals), but this time focus on small and medium size businesses.

tayto lover

Scortho wrote: »

The thing about increasing the corporate tax rate is the negative signal it would send. It forms a key part of our FDI strategy. It acts as a compensator to the multinationals for investing here. It has helped create 1000s of jobs in the country. By increasing it, we become less competitive. COmpanies carry out sustainability reviews on average every ten years. What would that signal tell them to do?
I know it'd tell me to get tha feck out of Ireland! they've gone crazy!

Corporation tax took in around 3.5 billion last year.
An extra 1.5 % would yield around 420 m.

So for the sake of 420m you want to put the jobs of 1000s of people at risk, while ignoring the excessive overspending in areas such as welfare?

First of all I was luckily never on SW in my life and hopefully won't be in the future. However it's easy for someone to say cut SW and our problems or some of them will be solved. They won't as long as prices are rising. People on SW are already on queues for Soup Kitchens daily. Cutting SW will only make their plight worse.
The Govt should be pumping money into job creation but they are not. Instead they are pumping it into a failed Banking System while continuing with the high wages and pension of the people who failed us. They should also be standing behind their people and preventing them from being fleeced by the likes of Bord Gais and the E.S.B. That 420m would go a bit of the way in creating a bit of space with mortgage defaulters too.
Until something is done about prices SW should be left alone.
I still think a rise of 1-2% in Corporate Tax would not be a bad thing and I really can't see many business closing up and moving because of it.

sparksfly

tayto lover wrote: »

To allow the Yanks avail of the low corporate tax rate the taxpayers of Ireland are being bled dry. The fact that they are getting off lightly means that we are being rode.

The yanks are paying most of our bills through being our chief exporters and employers. Since we have not held on to much of our native industries we have a huge dependence on multinationals to keep us afloat.
Instead of "being rode" by them, Irish taxpayers (and non-taxpayers) would be living in a 3rd world country without them.
One medical multinational (the biggest in Ireland) has net annual exports worth more to the irish economy than farming, tourism, fisheries, and forestry exports combined. Add in the suppliers, contractors and various agencys that they support, along with charities, schools and community groups.
Mess with them at our peril.

tayto lover

sparksfly wrote: »

The yanks are paying most of our bills through being our chief exporters and employers. Since we have not held on to much of our native industries we have a huge dependence on multinationals to keep us afloat.
Instead of "being rode" by them, Irish taxpayers (and non-taxpayers) would be living in a 3rd world country without them.
One medical multinational (the biggest in Ireland) has net annual exports worth more to the irish economy than farming, tourism, fisheries, and forestry exports combined. Add in the suppliers, contractors and various agencys that they support, along with charities, schools and community groups.
Mess with them at our peril.

And where did I say that we were being rode by them?
We are paying more to prop up the low corporate tax is what I said. Are their profits being spent or invested here? Don't think so.

doolox

Multinationals are accountable to no one and this is a major problem when nations are trying to obtain taxes but have to consider the threat to jobs if the multinationals relocate elsewhere.

A similar situation existed in the middle ages with the Orders like the Knights Templar and the various military/religious orders which were a law onto themselves and defied the wills of the various Kings etc which existed at the time. By concerted action by all the Sovereigns the various Orders were wiped out, many in one day, A Medieval solution to a Medieval problem.

I think we are facing the decline and loss of power of the nation state and future polities will have to treat with multinationals as if they were nations themselves. A similar realism may have to apply to dealings with Gangs, Terror groups etc.

This will need increased cooperation between groups of nation states, subnational regions, community groups, trade unions etc to ensure that fair deals are conducted with jobs providers and job holders. The present system has collapsed to the extent that the balance of power lies heavily with the jobs providers and there is a distinct lack of direction or a possible solution ahead.

Probably, like many human problems there are many individual solutions for each affected individual and it will not be easy. What drives most people mad is the obviuos inequality that is now clear to many since new info technology has opened up many previously closed doors so that the lifestyles of the rich are more public than in the past.

It is only partly true that the masses are better educated than in the past because many degrees are too specialised and there is a lack of critical thinking and looking for alternatives and very little encouragement of self sufficiency in present day education.

People are not encouraged to bargain hard for a better return on their efforts and are forced to accept the present chaotic situation as "normal".

Nody

doolox wrote: »

Multinationals are accountable to no one and this is a major problem when nations are trying to obtain taxes but have to consider the threat to jobs if the multinationals relocate elsewhere.

A similar situation existed in the middle ages with the Orders like the Knights Templar and the various military/religious orders which were a law onto themselves and defied the wills of the various Kings etc which existed at the time. By concerted action by all the Sovereigns the various Orders were wiped out, many in one day, A Medieval solution to a Medieval problem.

I think we are facing the decline and loss of power of the nation state and future polities will have to treat with multinationals as if they were nations themselves. A similar realism may have to apply to dealings with Gangs, Terror groups etc.

This will need increased cooperation between groups of nation states, subnational regions, community groups, trade unions etc to ensure that fair deals are conducted with jobs providers and job holders. The present system has collapsed to the extent that the balance of power lies heavily with the jobs providers and there is a distinct lack of direction or a possible solution ahead.

Probably, like many human problems there are many individual solutions for each affected individual and it will not be easy. What drives most people mad is the obviuos inequality that is now clear to many since new info technology has opened up many previously closed doors so that the lifestyles of the rich are more public than in the past.

It is only partly true that the masses are better educated than in the past because many degrees are too specialised and there is a lack of critical thinking and looking for alternatives and very little encouragement of self sufficiency in present day education.

People are not encouraged to bargain hard for a better return on their efforts and are forced to accept the present chaotic situation as "normal".

Why do you think human nature is going to change over night? Countries are already today fighting to pull in investments, once in a country the regions are fighting for who should get it yet you expect they will all suddenly start to cooperate?

What I do expect is that things will go the Russian route of adding trade blocks in larger countries making it difficult/expensive to import (and hence motivating setting up a local factory to produce it instead). There will be more closing of tax holes (i.e. interest recharges to low tax countries as US is implementing etc.) and the medium / small countries will be left to moan and try to win the factories supporting the rest of the world as best as they can. That's already what has started today and is far more likely then a sudden change in human behaviour accross functions, countries and regions.

Joe 90

General Atomic wrote: »

Why is it necessary to balance the books? Why is servicing our debt more important than helping people in need in our own country? Look to Spain, Greece and, to a lesser extent, the UK if you want to see the effects of austerity in the name of debt reduction; their economies are in the toilet and continuing to fall.

Well if you owe someone some money and you expecthope to get more loans you need to be seen to be servicing the loans you already have.

Joe 90

tayto lover wrote: »

And where did I say that we were being rode by them?
We are paying more to prop up the low corporate tax is what I said. Are their profits being spent or invested here? Don't think so.

Are their profits the biggest part of the money they take? As someone said earlier they pay wages and all the associated bits and bobs, pay rates, pay sub contractors, pay transport etc. Lots of direct costs and overheads spent in Ireland. If they did not pay a penny in corporation tax they still would be a bloody good thing for the country. I would suspect though that the big danger of them going might be high labour costs due to the high wages paid in Euros, the Euro being overvalued as a currency for Ireland.

Icepick

tayto lover wrote: »

Of course they do. We supply a good highly trained and highly educated workforce.
Don't sell yourself so short.
They are not here just for the low taxes and because they like us.

The bloated government is preventing us from selling for more.

maninasia

I think we are facing the decline and loss of power of the nation state and future polities will have to treat with multinationals as if they were nations themselves. A similar realism may have to apply to dealings with Gangs, Terror groups etc.

If you look at what happens in China or Brazil and increasingly even in the US, you can see the nation state is still very much alive and kicking.

For example you need to pay 25% import tax on any cars imported to China. In the end all the major car manufacturers were forced to open Joint Ventures with local Chinese companies to sell in the Chinese market.

Who is stronger, the multinational or the state?

In China all the large business sectors are controlled by State Owned Enterprises or enterprises with significant government backing.

Want to sell a drug or open a hospital? Need a license.
Want them to buy a train? Better manufacture it in China and transfer the tech.
Want them to buy a plane? Likewise.

With regards small countries multinationals can often play one off the other. It's not so easy with big countries with lucrative markets. They need to shut up and play ball.

PFI

Idbatterim wrote: »

I believe people should be financially rewarded for reporting welfare fraud. Obviously only if the claim turns out to be true, following the investigation...

It would be very difficult as it is widespread and most of those on JA work illegally either part or full time. Some even run their micro businesses.

frankosw

PFI wrote: »

It would be very difficult as it is widespread and most of those on JA work illegally either part or full time. Some even run their micro businesses.

They should have thier benefits removed immediatly and then fined for the money they have defrauded.

PFI

maninasia wrote: »

Bring the costs down, and make an incentive plan to setup businesses in Ireland (whether foreign/locals), but this time focus on small and medium size businesses.

It is the export-oriented companies who mainly add value to our economy, however unfortunately most of the SMEs are either locally focused or even import-oriented. So, I don't see a reason for special support.

PFI

frankosw wrote: »

They should have thier benefits removed immediatly and then fined for the money they have defrauded.

In theory they should, but in practice it would never materialise.

PFI

tayto lover wrote: »

I still think a rise of 1-2% in Corporate Tax would not be a bad thing and I really can't see many business closing up and moving because of it.

In Europe already there several destinations with lower corporate tax and lower cost base, so additional increase by 1-2%, might push many MNCs to leave Ireland for greener pastures. And should they leave we would face economic collapse.