N86 scheme

kingdumb

Great to see An Bord Pleanala’s seeing some sense and rejecting the controversial NRA redevelopment scheme for the N86 from Camp to Dingle.

lottpaul

kingdumb wrote: »

Great to see An Bord Pleanala’s seeing some sense and rejecting the controversial NRA redevelopment scheme for the N86 from Camp to Dingle.

I only heard a quick report on Raidio na G - mentioned cycle lanes etc - do you have a link to the decision or a fuller a/c?

kingdumb

There is a bit in the Times today.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1112/1224326473671.html

lottpaul wrote: »

I only heard a quick report on Raidio na G - mentioned cycle lanes etc - do you have a link to the decision or a fuller a/c?

galwaycyclist

lottpaul wrote: »

I only heard a quick report on Raidio na G - mentioned cycle lanes etc - do you have a link to the decision or a fuller a/c?

Attached

traleespud

Excuse my ignorance here (I'm not a cyclist nor have I seen designs) but I would have thought a dedicated cycle lane would be exactly what many cycling groups would be lobbying FOR not AGAINST. I see some of the new road into Annascaul has a cycle lane separated from the road by a grass margin and looks to be a fantastic idea. Surely this is safer option even if it does require the road width to be slightly wider. I can't understand why cycling groups are welcoming a re design???? It has to be better than nothing at all???

galwaycyclist

traleespud wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance here (I'm not a cyclist nor have I seen designs) but I would have thought a dedicated cycle lane would be exactly what many cycling groups would be lobbying FOR not AGAINST. I see some of the new road into Annascaul has a cycle lane separated from the road by a grass margin and looks to be a fantastic idea. Surely this is safer option even if it does require the road width to be slightly wider. I can't understand why cycling groups are welcoming a re design???? It has to be better than nothing at all???

May I respectfully suggest that you read the letter from An Bord Pleanala as it captures the concerns about putting a recreational cycle route adjacent to traffic. It doesnt say anything about doing nothing.

lottpaul

I have to say I sometimes despair of planning in this country. The piece of road that has already been upgraded - just to the east of Annascaul - has been built with these cycleways etc to either side. How could they have been permitted there and be considered a danger between Annascaul and Lispole?



As for the idea of developing a cycleway on the Dingle Way - well, good luck with that. It would cost a small fortune to upgrade it to any sort of suitable standard.

Whatever the merits or the opposite the net result will be more delays on a piece of road that badly needs some upgrading and improvement.

traleespud

galwaycyclist wrote: »

May I respectfully suggest that you read the letter from An Bord Pleanala as it captures the concerns about putting a recreational cycle route adjacent to traffic. It doesnt say anything about doing nothing.

I wouldn't have posted if I didn't read it. It does mention in its revision request that the road width be reduced and the cycle way be omitted. The point I was making is surely a cycle way is better than no cycle way. Don't get me wrong i don't wish to get into driver v cyclist war or a tit for tat argument. What confuses me is what exactly are the concerns of the cyclist groups and what are there suggestions???

I get the hedgerow, tree line and environmental impact etc that's fair enough.

What exactly do cycling groups want in there ideal world. What are the options other than excluding the cycle way altogether ?? At the end if the day the road needs drastic improvement for tourism/employment and not to mention the benefits dingle harbour would reap from better road infrastructure!!!

TBH I thought the inclusion of a cycle way in the project was a bonus to begin with. The placement of the path 2meters from cars is safe all round for everyone!! With the recent boom of cycling as a hobby/past time there has been many a debate on local and national radio recently about cyclists cycling 2and 3 abreast on narrow roads resulting in near miss accidents and dangerous situations. Surely cycle ways like this puts an end to these problems???

The Tralee bypass is about 16km and contains a similar cycle way with no objections or concerns?? It also contains a wider road in the form of a dual carriage way. Other than attractive recreational amenity, what's the difference???

Mrs Dempsey

traleespud wrote: »

............. there has been many a debate on local and national radio recently about cyclists cycling 2and 3 abreast on narrow roads resulting in near miss accidents and dangerous situations.............
The Tralee bypass is about 16km and contains a similar cycle way...............

I cycle, motorcycle & drive. The most vulnerable thing I do is clcle alone out the country; motorists think they can squeze by in the face of oncoming traffic; ever had a car mirror hit your elbow? When with a group motorists just have to wait till there is no oncoming traffic - they don't like it but hey that's the way it is.
Hopefully the Tralee cycle lane will be a bit wider than the one on the Castleisland bypass - if you meet someone pushing a buggy its a snooker!
I take your point about any cycle lane being better than none but have a hard look at the cycle lane on Brewery road, is it one way East for cyclists, what is the drill when a cyclist meets another cyclist heading West in the cycle lane (on wrong side of road)? Is it a parking place near the school & why is there yeild triangles on the cycle lane for the 2 gates of the Greyhound track?
You are possibly not a cyclist?
Apologies on hijack so!

traleespud

Mrs Dempsey wrote: »

I cycle, motorcycle & drive. The most vulnerable thing I do is clcle alone out the country; motorists think they can squeze by in the face of oncoming traffic; ever had a car mirror hit your elbow? When with a group motorists just have to wait till there is no oncoming traffic - they don't like it but hey that's the way it is.
Hopefully the Tralee cycle lane will be a bit wider than the one on the Castleisland bypass - if you meet someone pushing a buggy its a snooker!
I take your point about any cycle lane being better than none but have a hard look at the cycle lane on Brewery road, is it one way East for cyclists, what is the drill when a cyclist meets another cyclist heading West in the cycle lane (on wrong side of road)? Is it a parking place near the school & why is there yeild triangles on the cycle lane for the 2 gates of the Greyhound track?
You are possibly not a cyclist?
Apologies on hijack so!

The cycle lane on this proposed project was to be completely separated from the road with a 2m grass margin in between motorist and cyclist. It's nothing at all like the painted line that runs along some of the roads in town.

This would prevent any interaction with traffic and the vulnerable cyclist. This is the way forward making things safer for all.

I won't lie I have been left frustrated stuck behind a group of cyclists in the past.

Whilst a car may get an opportunity to safely overtake a group of cyclists it is twice as difficult for a lorry/articulated truck or large coach to find an opportunity.

The road to dingle carries a large volume of heavy goods vehicles to the pier for the fishing industry and also coaches full of tourists. In this day and age it's madness to expect a car,truck or coach to sit at 15-20mph behind a large group of cyclists for 10 miles.

Mrs Dempsey

traleespud wrote: »

..........it's madness to expect a car,truck or coach to sit at 15-20mph behind a large group of cyclists for 10 miles.

Fair point - the group I cycle with would single out in those circumstances and give some indication to following traffic when the road ahead is clear. In fairness when I drive I prefer not to be held up & that extends to hesitant motorists whose breal lights come on for no apparent reason - like meeting another car on a wide straight road - which the Dingle road aint & looks like staying that way a wee bit longer..
I occasionally do motorcycle marshal for cyclr races - now that can be interesting..............

carchaeologist

What cracks me up is when cyclists cycle two abreast when there's clearly no room to do so.

A friend of mine used to say 'they don't pay road tax so they have no rights on here!'

kingdumb

Tell you friend that there is no such thing as road tax. Roads are paid for via general and local taxation.

carchaeologist wrote: »

A friend of mine used to say 'they don't pay road tax so they have no rights on here!'

kingdumb

Far far as I know the bypass will have paths of the same design as the Castleisland one !

Mrs Dempsey wrote: »

Hopefully the Tralee cycle lane will be a bit wider than the one on the Castleisland bypass - if you meet someone pushing a buggy its a snooker!

what_traffic

Useful reading:
http://www.cyclist.ie/2012/11/cyclists-welcome-rejection-by-an-board-pleanala-of-controversial-kerry-n86-road-design/

@traleespud Road Cyclists wont use the Greenway or these cycle paths anyhow as they are not designed for them. Road Cyclists on road bikes can travel at 30-40km on the flat - Greenways are not designed for those kind of speeds.

traleespud

[Quote=Road Cyclists on road bikes can travel at 30-40km on the flat - Greenways are not designed for those kind of speeds.[/Quote]

There's very little flat road to dingle I'm afraid unless your coming straight from the tour the France you'd be very lucky to reach speeds like that!!!

what_traffic

traleespud wrote: »

There's very little flat road to dingle I'm afraid unless your coming straight from the tour the France you'd be very lucky to reach speeds like that!!!

Bit of a Doh moment there traleespud. Put on your critical thinking cap. Pretty obvious very little flat road on road to Dingle so how fast do you think they will be going on the Downhill sections? Hint it's greater than 30-40kmph

traleespud

what_traffic wrote: »

Bit of a Doh moment there traleespud. Put on your critical thinking cap. Pretty obvious very little flat road on road to Dingle so how fast do you think they will be going on the Downhill sections? Hint it's greater than 30-40kmph

An ya fair enough like I said I don't cycle so that never occurred to me!! Your the expert !!!

I still haven't heard any alternative suggestions to the problem however??

Mrs Dempsey

carchaeologist wrote: »

What cracks me up is when cyclists cycle two abreast when there's clearly no room to do so...........

But there is room to cylcle two abreast, unless one of them is in the hedge - where some motorists would like them & sometimes are clearly motivated to put them there.
I guess you mean there is no room for you to pass? :cool:

what_traffic

traleespud wrote: »

An ya fair enough like I said I don't cycle so that never occurred to me!! Your the expert !!!

I still haven't heard any alternative suggestions to the problem however??

Upgrade the road alright and put in hard shoulders etc but build a separate Greenway away from the N86 for leisure cyclists based on the Great Western Greenway on Mayo - that goes from Achill Sound to Westport.
Build something a 10year will cycle on
Probably will need to build sections of the Greenway close to N86 in spots but strive to build it away if at all possible. Use lightly trafficed local roads for sections of the greenway and sections of old railway alignment (that is not part of the N86 now)

traleespud

what_traffic wrote: »

Upgrade the road alright and put in hard shoulders etc but build a separate Greenway away from the N86 for leisure cyclists based on the Great Western Greenway on Mayo - that goes from Achill Sound to Westport.
Build something a 10year will cycle on
Probably will need to build sections of the Greenway close to N86 in spots but strive to build it away if at all possible. Use lightly trafficed local roads for sections of the greenway and sections of old railway alignment (that is not part of the N86 now)

But that's a totally different project really altogether to be fair. I like to walk quite a bit in the evenings after work to clear the head and for a bit of exercise. It's similar to an avid walker or walking group saying the foot path is too close to the road and it doesn't offer an attractive recreational amenity so instead we want a nice walkway built away from the road with nice hedging and flora a fauna etc. So we are objecting. It's total lunacy.

Lets call a spade a spade here the road as it was originally designed was to cost €65 million the inclusion of separate Greenway away from the road to accommodate cyclists is obviously going to cost extra especially if there's a lot of knick knack work for it to include rail line and under trafficked country roads etc. Seems like a complete WASTE of money to me when you think the state our country is in at the moment, the HSE just reported deficits of €400 million but yet we want to spend extra money on building a posh cycle way despite the fact that one could have been included in the original road construction. Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy???

galwaycyclist

traleespud wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy???

Yes probably. In Mayo your posh cycle way cost 4 million and is making 7 million a year back for the local community. This road was grotesquely overspec'd for what it was supposed to be - 28m wide. It was essentially a dual carriageway road bed being driven down the length of the peninsula. By following Bord Pleanala's changes you get to have both an improved road and, if it is done sensibly, a fantastic greenway. And probably for substantially less than 65million. The days when this country could write road engineers blank cheques were over ages ago.

traleespud

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes probably. In Mayo your posh cycle way cost 4 million and is making 7 million a year back for the local community. This road was grotesquely overspec'd for what it was supposed to be - 28m wide. It was essentially a dual carriageway road bed being driven down the length of the peninsula. By following Bord Pleanala's changes you get to have both an improved road and, if it is done sensibly, a fantastic greenway. And probably for substantially less than 65million. The days when this country could write road engineers blank cheques were over ages ago.

7 million WOW!!! Fair enough if it can bring in that sort of dosh. Would most of this be generated from non Irish tourists??? I think particularly because dingle town s world renowned for obvious reasons with French, German and Americans etc I don't think it would actually matter to them whether there was a dedicated route or not. If a foreign tourist is coming to Kerry on a cycling holiday there going to make there way to dingle regardless of whether there's a dedicated greenway or not.

Now dont get me wrong I also get what your saying. I guess if it can all be included without spending extra over and above the original estimate then it is win win all round. But to be honest I wouldn't be very optimistic at this prospect. If it sounds too good to be true it usually is!!!

galwaycyclist

traleespud wrote: »

7 million WOW!!! Fair enough if it can bring in that sort of dosh. Would most of this be generated from non Irish tourists??? I think particularly because dingle town s world renowned for obvious reasons with French, German and Americans etc I don't think it would actually matter to them whether there was a dedicated route or not. If a foreign tourist is coming to Kerry on a cycling holiday there going to make there way to dingle regardless of whether there's a dedicated greenway or not.

Now dont get me wrong I also get what your saying. I guess if it can all be included without spending extra over and above the original estimate then it is win win all round. But to be honest I wouldn't be very optimistic at this prospect. If it sounds too good to be true it usually is!!!

Yes you're partially right. Somebody who has already cycled from Tralee to Camp is likely someone who is quite confident and who will not divert onto a roadside cycle path if that is only going to cause more delay and inconvenience. There has to be a good selling point.

With the French and Germans they will have a very clear idea of what a proper greenway looks like - try to sell them some kind half-baked Irish caricature and it will be all over the internet within days of opening.

Much of the "trade" in Mayo comes from people staying in revitalised hotels and b&bs sothey can hire bikes in local bike hire shops and cycle the greenway. There is even a business picking them up at either end in minibuses and getting them back to their hotels.

On a day like today give them a warm fire at the end and a cup of tea and a hot buttered scone and they'll feel they had a great day out.

what_traffic

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes probably. In Mayo your posh cycle way cost 4 million and is making 7 million a year back for the local community.

+jobs as well
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0723/1224320622728.html
"
In its first year of operation – since mid-2011 – a new cycling culture has evolved in all of the towns and villages along the track. About 145,000 people have used the route, contributing more than €7 million to the local economy and supporting more than 90 jobs in the process.
"

traleespud

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/councillor-says-west-kerry-road-decision-could-result-in-funding-loss/

galwaycyclist

traleespud wrote: »

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/councillor-says-west-kerry-road-decision-could-result-in-funding-loss/

Sounds like someone in either the council or the NRA is pulling a classic local authority "negotiating" tactic - "do what we say or we'll take the money away".

traleespud

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Sounds like someone in either the council or the NRA is pulling a classic local authority "negotiating" tactic - "do what we say or we'll take the money away".

I suppose it doesn't really matter now at this stage does it?? Now that an bord pleanala have made a decision even if the locals and cyclists agreed to original design it can't be reversed???

I wonder is it a possibilty that funding could be diverted else where now there's a delay in project?? Has anyone heard of this happening before???

galwaycyclist

traleespud wrote: »

I wonder is it a possibilty that funding could be diverted else where now there's a delay in project?? Has anyone heard of this happening before???

Yes, in my experience local authority officials nearly always threaten loss of funding when they don't get their way - its a standard tactic. In any case you are probably not looking for 65 million any more which in a sense makes your position stronger. Somebody needs to get a meeting with the Minister to seek assurances that the funds will still be in place.

Ideally that person could also gently point out to the Minister that if he, or his officials, had listened to what they were being told by the cyclists in the first place - this would not have happened. There might be a lesson in that somewhere.

kingdumb

On your first point, you do realise that people who drive cars were objecting to this road too right ?
Yes people in dingle who have been campaigning for road improvements on that road for years, so it was not just cyclists !

So we have a project which was intended to improve tourist routes,which as planned would have ruined the landscape, one of the things that tourists come to see.

On your second point, as pointed out already the return on investment on cycle infrastructure is much larger that road/rail etc. and in the case of 'quality' tourist facilities such as the Mayo greenway is staggering.

It is curious that you mention the deficit in the HSE budget, the Danes are building a load of cycle superhighway and their motivation is not to bring the tourist buck but to save on their medical bill !

The Capital Region of Denmark, a political body responsible for public hospitals as well as regional development, has provided $1.6 million for the superhighway project.
“When we look at public hospitals, we look very much at how to reduce cost,” said a regional councilor, Lars Gaardhoj, who had just picked up his three small children in a cargo bike decorated with elephants. “It’s a common saying among doctors that the best patient is the patient you never see. Anything we can do to get less pollution and less traffic is going to mean healthier, maybe happier, people.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/world/europe/in-denmark-pedaling-to-work-on-a-superhighway.html

traleespud wrote: »

But that's a totally different project really altogether to be fair. I like to walk quite a bit in the evenings after work to clear the head and for a bit of exercise. It's similar to an avid walker or walking group saying the foot path is too close to the road and it doesn't offer an attractive recreational amenity so instead we want a nice walkway built away from the road with nice hedging and flora a fauna etc. So we are objecting. It's total lunacy.

Lets call a spade a spade here the road as it was originally designed was to cost €65 million the inclusion of separate Greenway away from the road to accommodate cyclists is obviously going to cost extra especially if there's a lot of knick knack work for it to include rail line and under trafficked country roads etc. Seems like a complete WASTE of money to me when you think the state our country is in at the moment, the HSE just reported deficits of €400 million but yet we want to spend extra money on building a posh cycle way despite the fact that one could have been included in the original road construction. Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy???

traleespud

kingdumb wrote: »

On your first point, you do realise that people who drive cars were objecting to this road too right ?
Yes people in dingle who have been campaigning for road improvements on that road for years, so it was not just cyclists !

So we have a project which was intended to improve tourist routes,which as planned would have ruined the landscape, one of the things that tourists come to see.

On your second point, as pointed out already the return on investment on cycle infrastructure is much larger that road/rail etc. and in the case of 'quality' tourist facilities such as the Mayo greenway is staggering.

It is curious that you mention the deficit in the HSE budget, the Danes are building a load of cycle superhighway and their motivation is not to bring the tourist buck but to save on their medical bill !

The Capital Region of Denmark, a political body responsible for public hospitals as well as regional development, has provided $1.6 million for the superhighway project.
“When we look at public hospitals, we look very much at how to reduce cost,” said a regional councilor, Lars Gaardhoj, who had just picked up his three small children in a cargo bike decorated with elephants. “It’s a common saying among doctors that the best patient is the patient you never see. Anything we can do to get less pollution and less traffic is going to mean healthier, maybe happier, people.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/world/europe/in-denmark-pedaling-to-work-on-a-superhighway.html

Yes I'm perfectly aware that drivers also had issues, if you take the time to catch up on previous posts you will find that I was interested to find out about the cyclist groups and what concerns they had. Local and national news reports on the subject were dominated by cycling groups welcoming the decision and I was intrigued as to why for reasons mentioned previously.

I mentioned the HSE deficit as a mere comparison at an attempt to put into context the possibility of needlessly over spending on a dedicated green way.

I would not be familiar with other European countries with similar projects so cannot comment, it may be slightly off topic anyway for this thread.

In my opinion (which I am entitled to) I believe cycling groups have shot themselves in the foot by objecting to the proposal. The N86 as it was originally designed including the cycle way was ready to roll out with funding set aside. It may not have been ideal but beggars can't be choosers really considering the dreaded doom and gloom of the economic crises were in.

Looking for a separate greenway is a totally separate issue and may take months or years to get anywhere near a start date. There's also the issue of double disruption during the construction phase along with similar hurdles faced during road construction including damage to hedge rows, flora and fauna, tree lines, wildlife etc to contend with also. Im sure the councils main priority now will be the N86 redesign excluding the cycle way and as of yet I haven't heard any reports that they are even considering a dedicated Greenway.

I admire the optimism of cycling groups and others lobbying for the dedicated greenway. If it ever gets considered and the design and planning stages get the go ahead I'm sure it will be a fantastic asset to Kerry. Best of luck with it!

skyfall2012

Traleespud is making sense and fushia is a weed it will grow again.

traleespud

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/n86-plan-could-be-delayed-by-20-years-if-refused-by-an-bord-pleanala/

From Radio Kerry news report

N86 plan could be delayed by 20 years if refused by An Bord Pleanala
Monday, November 19th, 2012 at 1:52 pm.


Any major upgrade to a west Kerry road would be delayed by up to 20 years if An Bord Pleanala turns down plans by Kerry County Council.

That’s according to the authority’s Director of Roads Charlie O’Sullivan who was speaking about the N86 project at the council’s monthly meeting.

Mr O’Sullivan said he would be very disappointed if An Bord Pleanala refused to grant permission for the plan.



The planning appeals board held an oral hearing earlier this year into the 65 million euro project to upgrade 28 kilometres of the N86 between Dingle, Annascaul and Gortbreagoge to Camp.

After consideration An Bord Pleanala ordered Kerry County Council to return to the drawing board and remove cycleways from the plan and reduce the width of the proposed alignment.

Following a question from Councillor Seamus Cosaí Fitzgearld at the monthly council meeting, Director of Roads Charlie O’Sullivan said they are seeking advice both legal and from the National Roads Authority before making their submission to An Bord Pleanala.

He said a similar project was approved in Donegal by the board.

Mr O’Sullivan added the suggestion to use part of the Dingle way for cyclists was being considered but some parts of this were not suitable.

Meanwhile, councillors voted in favour of extinguishing public rights of way in several townlands as part of the Annascaul to Gortbreagoe Road Improvement Scheme on which work is continuing.

kingdumb

I presume the reason that the media were focusing on cyclists was because they were the only ones to publicly welcomed the decision, I wonder if they even bothered to followed up with the tour operators, West Kerry groups an farmers who they have previously reported as having issues with the plans ?

I agree with you concern about the level of spending on this project in a time of cut backs, but as mentioned before a good greenway would see a return to the exchequer [and a saving on health cost] within years while a road would take decades to see a return.

It is worth remembering that this is a 'tourist' project, no offence to engineers but I am not too sure if they are they best people to be tasked to build a tourist attraction, it is not what they are trained for.

We can't afford to sit on our seats and expect tourist to come here any more we got to provided quality attractions and facilities, the potential in West Kerry for cycling and walking route is massive.

traleespud wrote: »

In my opinion (which I am entitled to)

Sorry i didn't realise there was an issue with free speech, am I missing something?

kingdumb

Why not make the most of what we have to offer...


1. Remove ivy
2. Resurface the track bed
3. Take photo of happy walkers and cyclists on bridge
4. Stick on cover of tourist guide
5. ??
6. Profit

Repeat..

traleespud

All well and good, however I still see this as a totally different project. The amount of work it would take to bring a greenway up to a suitable standard with correct surfacing is huge. From what I've read on some threads here cyclists are quiet fussy about surface depending on bike types etc. I appreciate there may be a return to the exchequer however I think now is not the time to be investing in risky projects like this.

Farmers and landowners have every right to object and have issues they own the land. Tourist operators also have well established business which they are worried about loosing. Its a given really on any project like this that there would be discussions with farmers and landowners.

Any concerns any of these groups have can be worked into or around the current scheme by narrowing a particular section, changing the direction of a bend or building under passes for farmers.

The cyclist groups however are looking for something totally seperate than making a few changes to the current project. What they want is a different route altogether.

I would love to see a dedicated greenway in place. It would quite obviously be a huge attraction for tourists no doubt. I think cycling groups have gone about it the wrong way however, they should let the roads be built allow for progression and stop objecting and holding projects like the N86 at ransom. The project is now at the risk of loosing funding or being severely delayed.

Cyclists should make a separate case to the NRA about a dedicated route of greenways and lobby that way. I would support this and I'm sure many others would also.

galwaycyclist

I am doing this.from my phone which is awkward. Ok a main reason for cyclists opposing this scheme is not just that it would be bad for Kerry but it would be bad for the country.

The links below concern the Connemara greenway which is also in planning at the moment. If you read the Cycling submission it covers the same ground that was covered in Dingle.

If you read the council response under further information it is clear that their main reason for not providing a proper greenway is because the NRA are going for a similar design with the N59 as they were proposing for the N86.

The N86 scheme and the approach behind it represents a demonstrable threat to the strategic economic interests of the local community and the state.

Even if there are local people in favour of the N86 going ahead it is in the national interest that it be stopped.

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The Oral hearing on the Connemara Greenway has been put back to the 11th of December.

The EIS and files relating to the planning observations are here on the county council website.

http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/RoadsTransportation/ConnemaraGreenway/
http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/RoadsTransportation/ConnemaraGreenway/FurtherInformation/
http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/RoadsTransportation/ConnemaraGreenway/AnBordPleanalaSubmissions/

The particular Galway Cycling Campaign/Cyclist.ie observations on the proposed scheme are here (4mb). The observations made would tie-in to the similar issues that were raised over the N86 scheme in Kerry.

http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/RoadsTransportation/ConnemaraGreenway/AnBordPleanalaSubmissions/FilesTable/Irelands%20National%20Cycling%20Lobby%20Group.pdf

kingdumb

Am I correct in my understanding of what you are saying ?

It is ok to spend €65 million on a road that will bring little revenue to the exchequer, could have negative impact on tourism [ one of the main economics of the area] and issues were also raised by farmers [agriculture, the other big economy of the area] but it is 'too risky' to develop a greenway which could help both economies and probably pay for itself within a few years ?

traleespud wrote: »

The amount of work it would take to bring a greenway up to a suitable standard with correct surfacing is huge.

The cost of building the road is huge, a greenway not so huge, as far as I know the recommendation was to make use lightly trafficed back-roads, the railway track bed and the dingle way.

The railway bed and most of the Dingle way is already compacted stone, and back-road are already surfaced.

traleespud wrote: »

From what I've read on some threads here cyclists are quiet fussy about surface depending on bike types etc.

No idea who/wher you are referring to here but I suspect that if it is sports/racing cyclists, the route surface would matter to them a they will still be on the road !

traleespud wrote: »

All well and good, however I still see this as a totally different project. The amount of work it would take to bring a greenway up to a suitable standard with correct surfacing is huge. From what I've read on some threads here cyclists are quiet fussy about surface depending on bike types etc. I appreciate there may be a return to the exchequer however I think now is not the time to be investing in risky projects like this.

Farmers and landowners have every right to object and have issues they own the land. Tourist operators also have well established business which they are worried about loosing. Its a given really on any project like this that there would be discussions with farmers and landowners.

Any concerns any of these groups have can be worked into or around the current scheme by narrowing a particular section, changing the direction of a bend or building under passes for farmers.

The cyclist groups however are looking for something totally seperate than making a few changes to the current project. What they want is a different route altogether.

I would love to see a dedicated greenway in place. It would quite obviously be a huge attraction for tourists no doubt. I think cycling groups have gone about it the wrong way however, they should let the roads be built allow for progression and stop objecting and holding projects like the N86 at ransom. The project is now at the risk of loosing funding or being severely delayed.

Cyclists should make a separate case to the NRA about a dedicated route of greenways and lobby that way. I would support this and I'm sure many others would also.

skyfall2012

Did anybody hear the rumour that the upgrade of the N86 has got to do with the oil find off the coast.
http://www.kerryman.ie/news/oil-find-must-give-jobs-to-kerry-3298095.html

I heard that ages ago, but thought they were crazy! Then the details of the oil find were in this weeks paper. Paper is stating Fenit being the port to bring it into, but that is 'mar yea' in discussion.
I was always suspicious of this upgrade to a road that was, very busy during the boom with people driving to and from work, they could have done with a better road. Then bust, not so many people on the road because of massive job losses and the rest! Then suddenly this major road upgrade?!
So this upgrade is preparing the road for heavy oil industry related trucks using the road on regular basis.
I would argue that if this is true, then there is plenty of money for proper road upgrade, placing footpath's in villages on N86 and the cyclist's greenway and the county council should exploit this situation to get those improvements done.

If people living on the N86 have to put up with large volume's of trucks hauling oil in from the coast, they should be compensated for this by improving their ability to earn a living, which would mostly be in the Tourism sector, therefore improvements done as outlined above.

traleespud

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/county-manager-urges-objectors-to-n86-road-improvements-to-get-behind-the-project/

Lets hope the locals and those not so local will welcome the new plans. Further delays will surely jeopardise funding.

kingdumb

Any one have any idea if the new plans have been published anywhere ?

traleespud wrote: »

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/county-manager-urges-objectors-to-n86-road-improvements-to-get-behind-the-project/

Lets hope the locals and those not so local will welcome the new plans. Further delays will surely jeopardise funding.

traleespud

From RK website yesterday!!

Kerry County Council resubmitted plans for the N86 Dingle to Annascaul and Gortbreagoge to Camp Road Improvement Scheme to An Bord Pleanala on June 18th. The 65 million euro project proposes to straighten and widen 28 kilometres of road. A three day oral hearing into the scheme was held in May last year. An Bord Pleanala ordered Kerry County Council resubmit their plans and find alternative cycleways. The board says it has received the new information from the council and is considering it. No time frame has been outlined but among the possible recommendations are a period of public consultation or reopening the oral hearing.

galwaycyclist

An Bord Pleanala have rejected the revised proposals. This is a huge victory for common sense.

traleespud

galwaycyclist wrote: »

An Bord Pleanala have rejected the revised proposals. This is a huge victory for common sense.

That'll prob put an end to that scheme at this rate will it???? Surely the funding will now be channelled else where considering the delays!!!

It may be a victory in some sense, but it will inevitably have a knock on effect to some of the industries in west Kerry particularly the fishing industry.

Mrs Dempsey

There are two sides to this for sure.
When I drive to Dingle a better road would be great.
When I cycle to Dingle (I do occasionally) a quiet route would be great.
However I'd prefer to cycle a tranquil seperate rural road than on an an additional parallel strip, running alongside of the national route - I know its segretated but it's not exactly "getting away from the bustle of the highway".

The road needs improved - dedicated cycle routes would assist things but they need not be intimately aligned.

kingdumb

Has anyone seen the plans that were resubmitted ?

I think Kerry CoCo have a lot to answer for [it's a pity they were banned] anyone else hear that they have also lost the € 1/4 million funding for the Tralee - Fenit cycleway ?

Clab mor

Commercial Court overrules An Bord Pleanála decision to block improvements to N86
Friday, April 11th, 2014 at 1:53 pm.


The Commercial Court has overruled a decision to prevent improvements to a west Kerry road.

In 2012, An Bord Pleanála blocked plans by Kerry County Council to further upgrade the main N86 Tralee to Dingle road.

The decision of the Commercial Court has been welcomed by Deputies Brendan Griffin and Michael Healy-Rae.

The €65m road improvement scheme proposed to straighten and widen 28km of road, and also included dedicated cycle tracks.

An Bord Pleanála based its decision to refuse permission for the changes, saying they would represent an excessive intervention into the landscape.

Kerry County Council suggested there were inconsistencies in An Bord Pleanála’s conclusion, and sought a judicial review into the decision.

At the Commercial Court in Dublin today Justice Peter Charleton quashed the decision of Bord Pleanála to refuse the Compulsory Purchase Order for the N86 Road Improvement Scheme.

The matter has been adjourned to May 2nd, to consider the next steps in the process.

Kerry County Council welcomes the ruling of Justice Peter Charleton and will take time to examine his written ruling over the coming days.


Good to see some sense prevailing here!!! Hopefully the delay won't jeapordise the project altogether.

what_traffic

Clab mor wrote: »

Commercial Court overrules An Bord Pleanála decision to block improvements to N86
Friday, April 11th, 2014 at 1:53 pm.

@Clab mor
Were did you copy and paste that piece from?

Was it really the Commercial Court?

The IT reported last Friday it was the High Court.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/bord-pleanala-failed-to-consider-cyclists-in-kerry-road-ruling-1.1759410

Clab mor

what_traffic wrote: »

@Clab mor
Were did you copy and paste that piece from?

Was it really the Commercial Court?

The IT reported last Friday it was the High Court.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/bord-pleanala-failed-to-consider-cyclists-in-kerry-road-ruling-1.1759410

Straight from Radio Kerry website

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/commercial-court-overrules-an-bord-pleanala-decision-to-block-improvements-to-n86/

weisses

Clab mor wrote: »

Commercial Court overrules An Bord Pleanála decision to block improvements to N86
Friday, April 11th, 2014 at 1:53 pm.

Very good news !!