RUMEN FLUKE HELP !!

MOOVAN

My DAIRY Herd have tested positive for rumen fluke (no liverfluke OR worms in the herd).What are my options (i don't want to use zanil so don't mention it in feedback please).I'm sick of vets etc. saying they can't advise on unlicenced formulations for DAIRY HERDS. I won't be using dose during lactation just at drying off so it won't impact on milk withdrawl.
Thanks

whelan1

MOOVAN wrote: »

My DAIRY Herd have tested positive for rumen fluke (no liverfluke OR worms in the herd).What are my options (i don't want to use zanil so don't mention it in feedback please).I'm sick of vets etc. saying they can't advise on unlicenced formulations for DAIRY HERDS. I won't be using dose during lactation just at drying off so it won't impact on milk withdrawl.
Thanks

are you for real:eek: why not zanil! think youre a messer tbh

MOOVAN

zanil too severe,used it two years ago.No messing here

stop animal cruelty

my dad swears by sea water..think it was fluke one of our cows had, cant remember, put about litre of sea water back down her throat, walla, fine again.

whelan1

maybe if you used the right dose it wouldnt be too severe, have used it properly here for years no probs, levafas diamond has after effects

mf240

I think if there badly affected they will have a severe reaction to the dose.

MOOVAN

sea water thats anew one to me .I won't rule it out .thanks.
Whelan. thanks for your reply .I have used zanil to the proper dosage and as i have said i do not have liverfluke so i am just looking for specific rumenfluke treatments.

whelan1

MOOVAN wrote: »

sea water thats anew one to me .I won't rule it out .thanks.
Whelan. thanks for your reply .I have used zanil to the proper dosage and as i have said i do not have liverfluke so i am just looking for specific rumenfluke treatments.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm zanil is a rumen fluke treatment

whelan1

mf240 wrote: »

I think if there badly affected they will have a severe reaction to the dose.

thus it is a sign it is working

MOOVAN

mf240 . What kind of reactions could they get ?

MOOVAN

Whelan 1.thanks again .As i have said in my first post I am looking for an alternative.

whelan1

sure what would the vets know anyways:rolleyes: you are on a public forum

1chippy

theres a rumen fluke thread a few weeks back. well worth reading.

Rovi

[MOD]
OP, nobody is going to offer advice or suggestions on 'unlicenced formulations' here either, as to do so would be against section 2 of the forum charter.
At best, all anyone here can do is give their own experience of dealing with similar problems.
[/MOD]

Realistically, your best option IS the advice and professional diagnosis of a vet.
If you're not happy with what your current vet is saying, there are plenty more out there.

MOOVAN

I am new to this,but i will see if i can find that previous forum.Thanks.

Rovi

Here's that other thread:
Rumen Fluke Treatment

MOOVAN

Vets are restricted by red tape and pharma companies ,sometimes i think they are afraid of saying anything in case they get into trouble and I don't blame them really i know a fare few beauties who blame the vet for everything !!

MOOVAN

Thank you Rovi.

deerejohn

From what i have been reliably told over the past 3 years, zanil and levafas diamond are the only 2 products which can kill rumen fluke. After a problem with rumen fluke in 2010 when we dosed the cows with zanil the first time, they improved in 3/4 days. When we dosed them 1 month later with zanil again, it knocked hell out of them. But we were told that they had to get the second dose and thats that.
Now cows are dosed at drying off and again 1 month later.

greysides

The presence of RF eggs in faeces is proof there are RF present. It is not proof they are causing a problem.

If you won't use the recommended treatment, the only recommended treatment, then the best you can hope for is the placebo effect.

Make sure to tell the cows they are being treated for RF as you give them something useless or it can't work.

just do it

MOOVAN wrote: »

My DAIRY Herd have tested positive for rumen fluke (no liverfluke OR worms in the herd).What are my options (i don't want to use zanil so don't mention it in feedback please).I'm sick of vets etc. saying they can't advise on unlicenced formulations for DAIRY HERDS. I won't be using dose during lactation just at drying off so it won't impact on milk withdrawl.
Thanks

Moovan
Welcome to boards.ie. I've read the thread so know your thoughts. Before dosing have you a problem? Most if not all cattle carry rumen fluke and it causes them no harm. Just because they test positive doesn't necessarily mean you've a clinical problem. Given you've no liver fluke I guess you've a dry enough farm. Why did you test the cows? Routine or investigation of some problem?

The other thread on rumen fluke is worth reading and a vet is the only one that can give a definitive answer.

Edit - added my experiences and thoughts on RF to the other thread that Rovi has given a link to above.

freedominacup

just do it wrote: »

Moovan
Welcome to boards.ie. I've read the thread so know your thoughts. Before dosing have you a problem? Most if not all cattle carry rumen fluke and it causes them no harm. Just because they test positive doesn't necessarily mean you've a clinical problem. Given you've no liver fluke I guess you've a dry enough farm. Why did you test the cows? Routine or investigation of some problem?

The other thread on rumen fluke is worth reading and a vet is the only one that can give a definitive answer.

Asked my own vet about it last week during test. He said that in most cases rumen fluke is this years fad for the drugs companies and the farming press. He maintained the number of acute clinical cases likely to be seen in the county would be tiny. Plenty of liver fluke around and they are a real problem in his opinion. Rumen fluke being present is not the same thing as an acute infection.

greysides

freedominacup wrote: »

Asked my own vet about it last week during test. He said that in most cases rumen fluke is this years fad for the drugs companies and the farming press. He maintained the number of acute clinical cases likely to be seen in the county would be tiny. Plenty of liver fluke around and they are a real problem in his opinion. Rumen fluke being present is not the same thing as an acute infection.

His opinion will be influenced by his location and previous years of experience. It is a real problem in certain areas of the country.

freedominacup

greysides wrote: »

His opinion will be influenced by his location and previous years of experience. It is a real problem in certain areas of the country.

You could be right but he was refering to published research rather than any other source when he was speaking to me. If "research" isn't published it isn't that reliable.

greysides

Yup, we all go by research until we've a chance to refine it with our own experience.

A couple of years ago I would have been saying exactly what he said then.

freedominacup

greysides wrote: »

Yup, we all go by research until we've a chance to refine it with our own experience.

A couple of years ago I would have been saying exactly what he said then.

So would you be of the opinion it's a widespread problem on all soil types after this year or would it still be confined to certain types of land?

greysides

I would only comment on the area around where I work and am familiar with.

It has been a hot potato for discussion for the past three years. After some initial scepticism I have seen cases of a disease fitting the published signs that responded to the published treatments. That is as good as proof gets.

Around here it is definitely a disease of concern in the heavier marine clay that composes the 'Macamore' area. But still not is every farm in that area.

It has turned up in some of the higher freer-draining, hillside areas too where drains overflowed onto fields leaving permanently wet spots in fields.

It's hard to sum up and be definite about areas. I would certainly be more mindful of it in the heavier clays and quicker to act if anything caught my eye, but it can't be ruled out in other areas too.

I do worry that it might eclipse Liver fluke in the general perception of what's important but it still warrants being mindful of.

You can see it's hard to give you a useful answer, my summary is to treat for worms and Liver fluke for certain but to watch for any indication that a separate RF dose might be needed.... animals not thriving as they would other years, animals from some fields (that flooded) not doing as well as those grazed on other drier areas of the farm, dirty backsides despite dosing etc.

manjou

There is a maximun dose of zanil that you can give and i think its 105 ml.The vet said its in the small print on leaflet.You give recommended dose up to this of so many ml per 50 kg but once you reach 105 stop no matter how heavy cattle are. Do them second time if you have to.That was adivce i was given by my vet after doing cow last spring after she calved and thought i had killed her when she stopped eating and scoured hell out of her. Reduced rate to 105 and had no problem after that.

leoch

manjou how many weeks did u do them the second time

MOOVAN

Hi again to all
In my original post I was hoping to find a specific miracle dose for Rumen fluke,but there is none
I've read all your posts and discussed it with my vet this morning.
Some of my cows were not thriving and I have tested for worms,liverfluke and Rumen fluke so I can decide on the best treatment for the winter/dried-off period.
I've decided to use the treatment I have been using for the past 3 yrs,which is zanil (105ml at one week of being housed) and dectomax for lice and worms(60day withdrawl,perfect for 8-12wk dried off cows) I dose them again with zanil when they calve (milk withdrawl is 3 days but I'll be holding milk for dry cow antibiotic so(zanil) it does not hold up milk to tank.
My reluctance to using Zanil was because it was blowing the bums off the cows(with correct dose) because i dried off,dosed and housedalmost straight off grass.
The differance on the farm this time is my vet says to get silage/straw into the cows that have runny poos and after being housed for the week, on this feed they should have tightened up and I can dose away,so zanil shouldn't blow their bums off . Wish me luck !!

MOOVAN

Other stuff i found out on my rumen fluke quest.
1.UCD Theo De Waal and co have published rumenflke(paraphistomum) research.
2.The midlands and parts of the west have had cattle die this year because they were heavily loaded with RF.
3.Lavafas Diamond does liverfluke,rumenfluke and Some worms. dose is 150ml/cow and is expensive in comparison.
I would have fairly good draining soil but after the rainy summer we've all had i would think there is very few farms that are safe !! Keep an open mind to RF ,it is not just hype in my opinion.
Thanks to you all for your posts.

greysides

Now I'll let you in on a secret, albendazole (Albex, Valbazen) at 10 mg/kg, has some effect on immature RF so if you are dosing over the summer and albendazole would do, you may get an unknown, and unquantifiable, double-whammy. It wouldn't hurt.

NB: It is NOT a currently recommended treatment though.

MOOVAN

Thank you so much .
Last evening was my first time posting anything on any forum but I am very glad I took the leap and I'm fairly confident that my cows will be glad too.
I'll give Levafas a go this time,can i still use dectomax ?I 've heard levafas isn't great for worms.

greysides

I would still use the Dectomax, levamisole will not tackle the inhibited L4 larvae that would be in the walls of the gut at this time of year.

However the Levasfas combination has an extra benefit that you won't see mentioned often, again because the effect is slight/unquantifiable. Levamisole is an immune stimulator, never a bad thing.

See post #39 for a warning about using Levafas in milking animals.

freedominacup

greysides wrote: »

Your dosing regime is fine but I would make one adjustment and use Levafas instead of Zanil as the datasheet recommended dosage rate is higher and closer to published recommendations for dealing with RF.

Now I'll let you in on a secret, albendazole (Albex, Valbazen) at 10 mg/kg, has some effect on immature RF so if you are dosing over the summer and albendazole would do, you may get an unknown, and unquantifiable, double-whammy. It wouldn't hurt.

NB: It is NOT a currently recommended treatment though.

Does the albex have an effect on more mature RF? We're on reasonably dry land here and gave calves and young heifers 2 doses of albex at fluke treatment levels mid-summer and in September. Would/should we have gotten much cover for rumen fluke?

MOOVAN

Greysides
I should probably have a degree to keep up with a person of your obvious knowledge of these things.
None the less very appreciative for you taking the time to get back to me.
One very happy Lady here.

greysides

Albendazole has no effect on mature RF.

The dosing you did over the summer will have HELPED keep any RF under the cosh but you would want to view it as a ' free extra' and NOT be depending on it. The effect is variable which is probably why it is not listed as a proper treatment.

larrywithalorry

manjou wrote: »

There is a maximun dose of zanil that you can give and i think its 105 ml.The vet said its in the small print on leaflet.You give recommended dose up to this of so many ml per 50 kg but once you reach 105 stop no matter how heavy cattle are. Do them second time if you have to.That was adivce i was given by my vet after doing cow last spring after she calved and thought i had killed her when she stopped eating and scoured hell out of her. Reduced rate to 105 and had no problem after that.

i dosed incalf heifers with zanil on Thursday at 3ml per 10kg. some got 150ml and none of them scoured. i didn't know about the max dose rate until afterwards. i did dose them very accurately though as they were on the weighting scales when i was doing them

Lizard_Moon

MOOVAN wrote: »

My DAIRY Herd have tested positive for rumen fluke (no liverfluke OR worms in the herd).What are my options (i don't want to use zanil so don't mention it in feedback please).I'm sick of vets etc. saying they can't advise on unlicenced formulations for DAIRY HERDS. I won't be using dose during lactation just at drying off so it won't impact on milk withdrawl.
Thanks

Just to remind people you have a dairy herd

Most levamisole containing products are not licensed for use in milking cows

Levafas Diamond cannot be used in dairy cows as no MRL established.

Just use Zanil as at least you know withdrawal period.

whelan1

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Just to remind people you have a dairy herd

Most levamisole containing products are not licensed for use in milking cows

Levafas Diamond cannot be used in dairy cows as no MRL established.

Just use Zanil as at least you know withdrawal period.

can dectomax be used in dairy cows?

MOOVAN

i've used it for years, meat withdrawl is 35days and milk is 60days,thats why i use Dectomax during the dry period.Obviously.
I always get my milk tested for residues etc at the start of the milk season before it goes into tank.Always best practice.

NEVER to be used on lactating cows.

whelan1

MOOVAN wrote: »

i've used it for years, meat withdrawl is 35days and milk is 60days,thats why i use Dectomax during the dry period.Obviously.
I always get my milk tested for residues etc at the start of the milk season before it goes into tank.Always best practice.

just wondering as i have never heard it used on dairy cows before

greysides

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Just to remind people you have a dairy herd

Most levamisole containing products are not licensed for use in milking cows

Levafas Diamond cannot be used in dairy cows as no MRL established.

Just use Zanil as at least you know withdrawal period.

Thank you for that timely reminder.

deerejohn

MOOVAN wrote: »

Hi again to all
In my original post I was hoping to find a specific miracle dose for Rumen fluke,but there is none
I've read all your posts and discussed it with my vet this morning.
Some of my cows were not thriving and I have tested for worms,liverfluke and Rumen fluke so I can decide on the best treatment for the winter/dried-off period.
I've decided to use the treatment I have been using for the past 3 yrs,which is zanil (105ml at one week of being housed) and dectomax for lice and worms(60day withdrawl,perfect for 8-12wk dried off cows) I dose them again with zanil when they calve (milk withdrawl is 3 days but I'll be holding milk for dry cow antibiotic so(zanil) it does not hold up milk to tank.
My reluctance to using Zanil was because it was blowing the bums off the cows(with correct dose) because i dried off,dosed and housedalmost straight off grass.
The differance on the farm this time is my vet says to get silage/straw into the cows that have runny poos and after being housed for the week, on this feed they should have tightened up and I can dose away,so zanil shouldn't blow their bums off . Wish me luck !!

On no account would i dose cows with zanil as they calve. Imho it is far to risky as it may cause a freshly calved cow to
have a depressed appetite,
scour,
and therefore could lead to displacements and such misery.

If i had cows with uniform(or scattered) drying off dates i would dose them before the end of the 1st week of their dry cow period and again 30 days later. This would ensure that they had their second dose at least(approx) 10 days before calving

My 2pence worth

MOOVAN

deerejohn wrote: »

On no account would i dose cows with zanil as they calve. Imho it is far to risky as it may cause a freshly calved cow to
have a depressed appetite,
scour,
and therefore could lead to displacements and such misery.

If i had cows with uniform(or scattered) drying off dates i would dose them before the end of the 1st week of their dry cow period and again 30 days later. This would ensure that they had their second dose at least(approx) 10 days before calving

My 2pence worth

Deerejohn
Zanil doesn't kill immature liverfluke,it takes 8 weeks for eggs to develop to adult fluke.(Thats what I've read)
I have not had any displacements (touch wood) to date.They should not blow out too much as with the first dose because there should only be a small loading of the remaining fluke and I have never noticed a problem with their appetite after 2nd dose.I think I have had more scour trouble with the first dose because they were coming off grass,,i have them on silage/straw now so I'll let you know how it goes:)

greysides

Zanil doesn't kill immature liverfluke,it takes 8 weeks for eggs to develop to adult fluke.(Thats what I've read)

Correct, Zanil only kills adult fluke.

From the time they enter the animal it takes ~12 weeks for the fluke to become adult and move into the bile ducts. Prior to that they are in the liver parenchyma (the brown stuff).

pbthevet

Im afraid oxyclozamide is your only option. Sold as Zanil. It is also part of levafas diamond.

Ruman fluke levels very high this year. Amazed youve no liver fluke? Everyone ive tested this year has been positive. Bad year for fluke in general.

Agree with you on zanil being rough on the cows tho but unfortunatly nothing else out there. The ruman fluke themselves are still being studied as to how severe an effect they have. Heve never seen any "clinical" cases but farmer feed back has showed an increased milk yield when used in a positive herd. Nothin spectacular now mind, most in region of 3%.

If you choose to use it, try keep dose as accurate as possible. Generally some cows go of their feed for a day or two but as i said before nothing else out there.

Best of luck

MOOVAN

Well,I've bought my Zanil and instead of Dectomax i'm trying Cydectin pour-on(for worms and lice) it is cheaper and I've been told is longer acting.Time will tell how good it will work for me.
I'll be treating the dry cows tomorrow and I'll let yee know if they blow out with the Zanil this time. !!

P.S I had to go to two vet shops to get Zanil as it was sold out and I was told it wouldn't be in stock for 2 weeks .So if you intend using it get it quick..Vets pricing Fasinex 240 is varying between 3.50-5 euro per animal.

pbthevet

Love cydectin myself. For my own herd this year which is currently being dried off ive went for fasinex 240 drench and simple bimectin (ivermectin) injection. Then gonna zanil them closer to the end of the dry period to sort out the ruman fluke and catch any liver fluke i missed with the fasinex. Pretty happy with the price i got too. In athy i paid 225 for 2.2l fasinex 240 and 26 for 500 ml bimectin. Thats a lot cheaper than what we sell it for in practise i work in up north, even with my discount! loyalty . . . . What loyalty . . .pays to shop around

MOOVAN

pbthevet wrote: »

Love cydectin myself. For my own herd this year which is currently being dried off ive went for fasinex 240 drench and simple bimectin (ivermectin) injection. Then gonna zanil them closer to the end of the dry period to sort out the ruman fluke and catch any liver fluke i missed with the fasinex. Pretty happy with the price i got too. In athy i paid 225 for 2.2l fasinex 240 and 26 for 500 ml bimectin. Thats a lot cheaper than what we sell it for in practise i work in up north, even with my discount! loyalty . . . . What loyalty . . .pays to shop around

65 euro for zanil here.
You are right about shopping around.
I can't believe you couldn't get doses cheaper at the practice where you work ! What have things come to ?
Maybe its time to 'Shop around' for new employers that might let you purchase at cost as a valued member of staff !!!

Lizard_Moon

MOOVAN wrote: »

65 euro for zanil here.
You are right about shopping around.
I can't believe you couldn't get doses cheaper at the practice where you work ! What have things come to ?
Maybe its time to 'Shop around' for new employers that might let you purchase at cost as a valued member of staff !!!

Don't know the poster but we routinely find the Co-op selling stuff for cheaper than we can actually buy it in. Not all retailers by products at the same price. So even though I have a much smaller markup my product could be more expensive.