Tesco switching to container trains, away from lorries

corktina

Cork and Waterford are container ports,as is Belfast, I don't know about Galway or Sligo; where else is there?

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

yes it's ship/train/truck vs ship/truck, first option could well also involve a good bit of mileage by truck in the wrong direction.

2nd option would often involve a truck arriving empty at the port, a dedicated container train would arrive pretty full, so the truck is at a disadvantage already. At the port 20 trucks would need to be security screened and release documents verified, versus 1 train precleared.

Then the truckers need to be guided around the yard to find their pickup point, some will never have been there before, so will need to be guided around, while the train just backs onto the siding it always uses.

Then when the train leaves Dublin its 1 driver wages instead of maybe 20 wages driving trucks to Limerick. I don't know about fuel savings but 1 train trundling along a fairly flat straight track at 50mph is surely more efficient than 20 trucks going up and down hills.

At the railhead it surely can be all loaded and unloaded in 2 hours, by a team of 4 people, even costed at €200 each it would be about €40 per container, way less than 1 drivers wages.

Its after the container is unloaded at the factory that the real saving kicks in - the truck can bring the container back to Dublin empty at considerable cost or it can be brought back to the railhead and either stored for the next job or sent back to Dublin for free when there is excess capacity.

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

Cork and Waterford are container ports,as is Belfast, I don't know about Galway or Sligo; where else is there?

Cork, Waterford, Dublin and Belfast - thats it. Foynes tried it but it didn't last long, so I can't see anywhere else attempting it.

corktina

rainbowdash wrote: »

2nd option would often involve a truck arriving empty at the port, a dedicated container train would arrive pretty full, so the truck is at a disadvantage already. At the port 20 trucks would need to be security screened and release documents verified, versus 1 train precleared.

Then the truckers need to be guided around the yard to find their pickup point, some will never have been there before, so will need to be guided around, while the train just backs onto the siding it always uses.

Then when the train leaves Dublin its 1 driver wages instead of maybe 20 wages driving trucks to Limerick. I don't know about fuel savings but 1 train trundling along a fairly flat straight track at 50mph is surely more efficient than 20 trucks going up and down hills.

At the railhead it surely can be all loaded and unloaded in 2 hours, by a team of 4 people, even costed at €200 each it would be about €40 per container, way less than 1 drivers wages.

Its after the container is unloaded at the factory that the real saving kicks in - the truck can bring the container back to Dublin empty at considerable cost or it can be brought back to the railhead and either stored for the next job or sent back to Dublin for free when there is excess capacity.

clutching at straws somewhat!

Those 20 trucks won't all be going to Limerick, they would serve a multitude of destinations,such as Tralee, Shannon, Ennis,Charleville,Tipperary etc. They would serve them direct , with savings in time and money which are obvious.

Who says the trucks would return with empty containers? LOGISTICS is an art nowadays and return loads would be booked for them

We all have to learn our jobs, yes, a new trucker would need training but from then on, he would KNOW where he was going.

Cookie_Monster

of course what could be an option ir ro-ro trains. Simply drive the truck onto them, take your break / off hours while it travels to Cork etc and drive straight off to local deliveries and same on return. no real additional cost to load / unload apart from capital investment. running one engine instead of 20 etc. Could work with a bit of thought

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of course what could be an option ir ro-ro trains. Simply drive the truck onto them, take your break / off hours while it travels to Cork etc and drive straight off to local deliveries and same on return. no real additional cost to load / unload apart from capital investment. running one engine instead of 20 etc. Could work with a bit of thought

Every single bridge and tunnel en route would need to be regauged for clearance. Nice idea, mind.

Cookie_Monster

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Every single bridge and tunnel en route would need to be regauged for clearance. Nice idea, mind.

ah yes, forgot that. Maybe low level wagon like the pocket wagons with ramps to allow driving between?? probably still too high though

corktina

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Every single bridge and tunnel en route would need to be regauged for clearance. Nice idea, mind.

i think the idea for trailers with both rail and road running gear is possible. I think that weight limitations might scupper that though as the trailers would need to be quite heftily built to be coupled into a train.

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

clutching at straws somewhat!

Those 20 trucks won't all be going to Limerick, they would serve a multitude of destinations,such as Tralee, Shannon, Ennis,Charleville,Tipperary etc. They would serve them direct , with savings in time and money which are obvious.

Who says the trucks would return with empty containers? LOGISTICS is an art nowadays and return loads would be booked for them

We all have to learn our jobs, yes, a new trucker would need training but from then on, he would KNOW where he was going.

If it was clutching at straws it would not be economical to send container trains to Ballina.

Why would the containers be going to Ennis or Charleville if a liner to limerick is for Limerick based customers?

You mention logistics being an art and organised liners would make it an art, but I see trucks going back to Dublin from deliveries with empty containers, its not like taxis, there are quite often no backloads readily available.

Can you tell us how much it costs to get a container delivered from Dublin to Ballina by road and how much it costs by train?Which option costs more?

corktina

well what would fill the containers that arrived on a train then?

the haul to Ballina was just about the longest possible on this island.(from Waterford).My understanding is the traffic now comes from Dublin , so less likely to be sustainable iMHO It is arguable whether it is profitable, but given any other possible haul would be shorter and mostly to a port, then that is the exception that proves the rule.

the_syco

steamengine wrote: »

BTW - Anyone notice all the rain this year

Actually, how often do the rail lines flood compared to roads? Would rail be a better option for long haul shipping when it rains?

bk

the_syco wrote: »

Actually, how often do the rail lines flood compared to roads? Would rail be a better option for long haul shipping when it rains?

No, rail lines frequently flood (or rain water can wash out the ground under the tracks or bridges or cause landslides onto tracks), no advantage there. Actually road freight has the advantage here as it can easily be routed around a flooded road.

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

well what would fill the containers that arrived on a train then?

the haul to Ballina was just about the longest possible on this island.(from Waterford).My understanding is the traffic now comes from Dublin , so less likely to be sustainable iMHO It is arguable whether it is profitable, but given any other possible haul would be shorter and mostly to a port, then that is the exception that proves the rule.

Containers could be returned and stored in Limerick yard and redistributed when somebody else needs one, or else sent back whenever there is spare capacity on a train, like you said logistics is an art but I don't think Irish rail are capable of running such a service.

The biggest issue would be building up the critical mass, if a train takes 20 containers the break even load could be say 16 boxes, so if Irish rail started from a zero base in the morning there might be a handful of boxes on trains each night for months.

Losty Dublin

rainbowdash wrote: »

Containers could be returned and stored in Limerick yard and redistributed when somebody else needs one, or else sent back whenever there is spare capacity on a train, like you said logistics is an art but I don't think Irish rail are capable of running such a service.

The biggest issue would be building up the critical mass, if a train takes 20 containers the break even load could be say 16 boxes, so if Irish rail started from a zero base in the morning there might be a handful of boxes on trains each night for months.

The Freight companies own the container, not Irish Rail. The current liner trains operate on the basis that the customer pays Irish Rail for a full load on every movement; it's up to them to have it full for rail haulage away. More often than not, the containers will be filled for travel or at least being returned to another client for filling. The onus is to them to make use of what they are paying for and not on Irish Rail; it's effectively a private hiring of the train.

steamengine

bk wrote: »

steamengine you assume that rail uses less fuel then truck, but is that true in the real world.

After all rail uses diesel too. I wonder once you use all the forklifts and trucks to move the freight to and from the rail heads, if given the short distances in Ireland, if it really is more fuel efficient?

Marginal I'd say at best.

Obviously if you are shipping all the way across the US, then it is a different story. But given the short distances in Ireland I doubt it is such a big deal.

But then most companies wouldn't actually care about this, they just care how much it costs to ship it. As foggy pointed out, with all the extra manpower needed to load and unload the freight on rail and to bring it to it's final destination (wages are by far the biggest expensive in almost all industries), plus the lack of competition within the rail freight industry, I'd be very surprised if rail freight isn't significantly more expensive then truck for anything but very heavy loads like mineral ore.

http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/energy-efficiency-and-specific-co2-emissions/energy-efficiency-and-specific-co2-3

Specific energy efficiency of light and heavy duty trucks has improved, but road transport still consumes significantly more energy per tonne-km than rail or ship freight transport.

The bar chart in Fiq 2 shows clearly how wasteful road is compared with rail.

rainbowdash

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The Freight companies own the container, not Irish Rail. The current liner trains operate on the basis that the customer pays Irish Rail for a full load on every movement; it's up to them to have it full for rail haulage away. More often than not, the containers will be filled for travel or at least being returned to another client for filling. The onus is to them to make use of what they are paying for and not on Irish Rail; it's effectively a private hiring of the train.

I know Irish Rail don't own the containers, but they could store them on behalf of the owners if there is demand or return them empty by train when there is a train going back to Dublin where there are spare slots.

The current arrangement is exactly how it would have to work anywhere in the country, because Irish Rail just couldn't manage it, the private operator would fill all the slots on the trains, arrange local distribution and store / return spare containers in the freight yard.

Does anybody know if the present container freight operators have any intention of expanding elsewhere in Ireland?

corktina

Another thing to consider is that the actual length of run that would be required of rail is a lot shorter than ,say, Dublin to Cork. Witness Lidl depot between Mallow and Charleville and Aldi at Mitchelstown. Both these are of recent construction, if there had been a likelihood of Rail coming into the picture, would they have not built next to the Railway lines? A lot of the goods they sell come from Germany so I imagine they could well use rail as far as Holyhead with no problem (maybe they do...)

Losty Dublin

rainbowdash wrote: »

I know Irish Rail don't own the containers, but they could store them on behalf of the owners if there is demand or return them empty by train when there is a train going back to Dublin where there are spare slots.

The current arrangement is exactly how it would have to work anywhere in the country, because Irish Rail just couldn't manage it, the private operator would fill all the slots on the trains, arrange local distribution and store / return spare containers in the freight yard.

Does anybody know if the present container freight operators have any intention of expanding elsewhere in Ireland?

I don't see why Irish Rail should be storing containers other than a few days between trains and pick ups. The quicker the cargo is moved the better for all concerned. So far as I know, the current trains are carrying full containers into and out of the port; regardless of the load the train is paid for so it's in their interest to get their money's worth.

davidlacey

rail freight is dead/buried and it will take major investment to get a major service back on track yeah the odd freight flow may come back but even as oil prices are huge there is still no new flows , road is king and has been for years and its what the government wants as can be seen by government policy over the last 15 years and it saddens me to say it as a rail enthusaist as i would love to see cement shale beer etc back where it belongs

foggy_lad

steamengine wrote: »

http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/energy-efficiency-and-specific-co2-emissions/energy-efficiency-and-specific-co2-3



The bar chart in Fiq 2 shows clearly how wasteful road is compared with rail.

Wasteful it may be but it is also far cheaper to unload ship to lorry and drive to customer than all the manual handling that is required for rail freight like ship to lorry to freight yard then loaded to train and off to destination where it is unloaded to a yard or possibly straight to lorry for delivery to customer.

I know which journey I would want my freight taking and it wouldn't more than one crane operator in port and one driver.

rainbowdash

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I don't see why Irish Rail should be storing containers other than a few days between trains and pick ups. The quicker the cargo is moved the better for all concerned. So far as I know, the current trains are carrying full containers into and out of the port; regardless of the load the train is paid for so it's in their interest to get their money's worth.

The objective is to keep the containers in storage for the shortest time possible and have them full and moving almost 24/7, so short term storage (days not weeks) until the next job needs one would be the objective.

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

Wasteful it may be but it is also far cheaper to unload ship to lorry and drive to customer than all the manual handling that is required for rail freight like ship to lorry to freight yard then loaded to train and off to destination where it is unloaded to a yard or possibly straight to lorry for delivery to customer.

I know which journey I would want my freight taking and it wouldn't more than one crane operator in port and one driver.

Containers have to off loaded from the ship to a lorry anyway if they're not being carried by rail, so that's not an extra movement. There is only one driver on the train instead of 25 or more truck drivers required. Spin off benefits would be reduced traffic congestion and pollution in the city and port, also saving rural secondary roads from a battering by high axle loads, (eg IWT Mayo). Fork lifts would be used to quickly off load the containers at a freight yard and this might be no different either if certain cargoes have to split up and palletised etc. anyway. So I don't see where you are getting all the extra movements from.

rainbowdash

foggy_lad wrote: »

Wasteful it may be but it is also far cheaper to unload ship to lorry and drive to customer than all the manual handling that is required for rail freight like ship to lorry to freight yard then loaded to train and off to destination where it is unloaded to a yard or possibly straight to lorry for delivery to customer.

I know which journey I would want my freight taking and it wouldn't more than one crane operator in port and one driver.

No such thing as ship to lorry. Its ship to quayside then customs clearance then ring around to find somebody to take the job.

A rail connect terminal will load a train in one go from a stack of containers probably cheaper than waiting for 20 or 30 lorries to turn up whenever it suits them.

davidlacey

we can talk about extra movements and the like but what is the rail network connected to? other than dublin port IE have disconnected anything at the first chance they could preventing any comeback for container traffic or anything else for that matter, and if a rail spur to a factory etc would
be an option can anyone see IE taking a hit for laying it

Losty Dublin

rainbowdash wrote: »

The objective is to keep the containers in storage for the shortest time possible and have them full and moving almost 24/7, so short term storage (days not weeks) until the next job needs one would be the objective.

I know that but why should Irish Rail be the ones minding what aren't their containers? I doubt if other logistic companies are hanging onto empty vans and lorries for clients on the same premise.

dowlingm

corktina wrote: »

Another thing to consider is that the actual length of run that would be required of rail is a lot shorter than ,say, Dublin to Cork. Witness Lidl depot between Mallow and Charleville and Aldi at Mitchelstown. Both these are of recent construction, if there had been a likelihood of Rail coming into the picture, would they have not built next to the Railway lines?

In typical Irish fashion the Lidl distribution centre is not even a mile from the railway line. Charleville Station a couple of miles up the road has a loop track and is remote enough from town that loco noise wouldn't be as intrusive as more centrally located places. One wonders where Lidl are landing their containers since Charleville is hardly a direct access for M8 or M7 and the less said about N20 in the area the better. But I suppose back in 2004 when the Lidl planning app was going through (the 2003 one was withdrawn) everyone was believing that the NRA would have M20 well in service by 2012, and nobody gave a crap about industrial buildings being plunked down in quiet villages.

dowlingm

davidlacey wrote: »

other than dublin port IE have disconnected anything at the first chance

because Dublin Port is investing in their own rail facilities.

corktina

Lidl are of course about half way from Limerick to Cork which was the idea I guess,and Charleville is a crossroads of routes serving North and West Cork, Kerry and Tipperary etc. Odd location none the less, that would have looked better if the M20 had been built.

Mitchelstown Aldi is close to the M8 and handy for Waterford and Limerick et al too,

rainbowdash

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I know that but why should Irish Rail be the ones minding what aren't their containers? I doubt if other logistic companies are hanging onto empty vans and lorries for clients on the same premise.

The container yard would be leased to a private operator I would assume, so they would be managing the containers, along with storage and distribution of same. Storage would be very short term anyway, like for a couple of days until somebody needs one or if there is general excess of containers in a region send the empties back as backloads with the liner.

Losty Dublin

rainbowdash wrote: »

The container yard would be leased to a private operator I would assume, so they would be managing the containers, along with storage and distribution of same. Storage would be very short term anyway, like for a couple of days until somebody needs one or if there is general excess of containers in a region send the empties back as backloads with the liner.

In other words, it's just back of envelope stuff.

Containers work as the carrier gets them pre loaded with the time consuming loading done off site. To go back to loading them on site means going back to the hey day of stopping goods trains, manual loading and loading at the station site. That worked before vans and lorries were plentiful but it worked as there was not other option; today's transport environment is a different story.