Gay men and sexism towards women

Annasopra

I was reading an article recently about the issue of sexism from gay men towards women and how it is justified.

A group of very politically engaged friends of mine were discussing it - some of the gay men said it has never happened in their experience, a lot of the women said it happens to them all the time (except in socialist settings where there is a strong stance on feminism)

http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/gay-mens-sexism-and-womens-bodies/

I'm curious about it though. I think it does happen. I don't know how much it happens and I'm curious to know does it happen a lot in Ireland.

What do the women here think? do you have experiences of sexism or groping from gay men?

Jenneke87

No rather the exact opposite. My best friend is a gay male and he is one the sweetest souls I know. Same with other gay people I know, they all get along great with females

spurious

Groping no, but sexism yes. Only among a certain group of gay men though - I call them the morons.

Annasopra

spurious wrote: »

Groping no, but sexism yes. Only among a certain group of gay men though - I call them the morons.

Oh I know - this isn't a generalisation about all gay men

Ambersky

I have had some good interactions and relationships with gay men and I have had some negative encounters with gay men.
One of the problems I have come across is some gay men thinking gay = male and then having difficulties about women wanting to be called Lesbian . I know thinking gay = male is denied but you can see the truth of it in misunderstandings. For example I replied to a thread elsewhere about Gays who go out with women and said I did it all the time and the thread went with several posters confronting me about being untrue to my gay identity. This is just one example and it wouldnt be important if it was an isolated misunderstanding but it is reflective of the way some gay men think LGBT events, politics and social life are a one size fits all. Its a reflection of the male as norm position which is also seen in heterosexual men.
On another occasion I was sitting in a pub and a gay man was telling a group of young women that gay men were responsible for getting condoms legalized in Ireland and that untill gay men organized on the issue women hadn't done anything about it but now they could use them as contraceptives and I think he was implying that women owed gay men a debt of gratitude. Huge lack of knowledge of history there all round.
It is a pity more gay men dont see the connection between the womens struggle for autonomy over our own bodies and the gay male struggle for autonomy over theirs.
At times it seems gay men have very little understanding or support of Lesbians who break out of traditional gender stereotype. I have heard this in statements like "I dont mind Lesbians but I dont see why they cant try to look more like women". It sometimes seems as though some gay men only want to socialise with very femme women and even then the term "fag hag" is sometimes used in a derogatory way to describe those women
There is at times an expression of disgust of women by gay men, for example in uses of the term "fish" to describe us and in the way Lesbians seem to be the subject of so many jokes.

I want to say this is not reflective of the attitudes or behavior of all gay men but these are issues that I have seen come up.
It might be enough to get a discussion going

rainbow kirby

I've had to pretty much end friendships with some gay men over their drunken behaviour - which could be best summarized as "I may not be attracted to you, but I still want to grab your boobs", and some extremely ignorant comments when asked to stop. This is pretty much a carbon copy of the case described in the article. First time it happened I laughed it off as a joke, when it happened again, it pissed me off to an absolutely ridiculous degree. My body is not a toy to be grabbed at will.

Sexism can be quite evident within the community at times - it can feel like the scene is mostly meant for cis gay men, with all others as an afterthought. Maybe it's a reflection of more general male privilege in society, an attempt to assert themselves within LGBT spaces on that basis... hard to say exactly though.

PhysiologyRocks

Gay men are people.

Some people are sexist.

I haven't personally found gay men as a group to be more or less sexist than any other people.

baby and crumble

Yup, I used to constantly get my boobs groped by gay guys I barely knew when I was first going out on the scene.

I also have experienced a lot of sexism on both sides, particularly from the so-called 'gold star' example of the sexuality spectrum; ie lesbians who never slept with men and vice versa. It's almost like they think that the only reason a guy and a girl would want to hang out is if they're going to shag at some point, and well if you're gay you won't, so what's the point? I know a lot of lesbian women who feel uncomfortable around men in general. What that's about I don't really know. But it is there.

Emeraldy Pebbles

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

I haven't personally found gay men as a group to be more or less sexist than any other people.

Indeed, but I think the issue is that gay men who are sexist seem to think that because they are gay, it's more acceptable for them to air those sexist views or something.

Annasopra

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

Gay men are people.

Some people are sexist.

I haven't personally found gay men as a group to be more or less sexist than any other people.

This isn't a thread making generalisations saying all gay men are sexist!

Wibbs

baby and crumble wrote: »

I know a lot of lesbian women who feel uncomfortable around men in general. What that's about I don't really know. But it is there.

I've noticed a little of that myself. Another I've noticed is with some gay men a discomfort around gay women. I say some to appease the "you're generalising" folks, but I certainly noticed it above background levels as it were. They seemed more comfortable around straight women(and men). The occasional gay guy I've met was overtly uncomfortable, even antagonistic towards gay women, but they were rare and they were eejits anyway. Like you I don't know what it's about. Of course that's just my small experience with small groups so hardly indicative of wider attitudes and YMMV.

PhysiologyRocks

mango salsa wrote: »

This isn't a thread making generalisations saying all gay men are sexist!

I know. I phrased that poorly. My apologies.

What I mean is that I haven't noticed any difference in sexism levels between gay men and the general population.

The minority of sexist gay men I know seem to be sexist in very similar ways to the minority of sexist straight men I know.

Morag

Some gay men do isolate themselves off in a world were the only women they have a relationship with is their mother and sisters and end up seeing women as being some how less human as they're ideas of being a good/respected/useful person becomes one with attributes which they see/feel as being male only, and if a woman exhibits any of them then she is trying to be a man.

It also means that what they see as 'women's issues' have nothing to do with them, and it's like they want to stay in their little all male bubble and don't want anything which which bleeds from the crotch to intrude into it, they also seem to despise transgendered women as men who want to be lesser.

It's a pretty awful mindset to run into and I think they are nuts to be cutting themselves off from half of the population but it's like they have decided they have no use for women at all other then to make fun off.

Links234

Sharrow wrote: »

they also seem to despise transgendered women as men who want to be lesser.

I'm glad someone else said it

I've sometimes been asked if people have reacted badly to me being transgender, and are completely stunned and shocked when I tell them that the only people who've reacted or treated me badly since my transition have been gay men. people flat out can't believe it, but out of any group of people, gay men have been the only ones to show open hostility towards me and my girlfriend, and show such contempt. and it's not just trans women that get it, trans men get abuse from them too.

I also agree with what Rainbow Kirby has said, I feel like a lot of LGBT spaces can be dominated by gay men and treated like a boy's only club, with any interlopers merely tolerated at best. We've been to a gay club before where we had to leave because guys kept walking past my girlfriend and shoulder-bashing into her or elbowing her as they passed, at one point even knocking half her drink all over her. or another time, I was actually followed out of a gay bar by some guy who was hurling abuse and shouting at me. But this kind of hostility seems like it goes unnoticed by everyone else, when I tell people about it, they're astonished and can't really believe it happens at all, but I find it utterly pervasive, and it annoys me how it seems to be brushed off constantly. we've even friends who'd been assaulted in certain establishments before.

it's a bit sad though, because I do have some gay male friends, but I'm kinda wary of them because of my experiences, I feel very guarded when I'm around them. by comparison, we both get on great with lesbian women.

spurious

I find the ones that are of the type make sexist remarks, they are really vicious. I'm not sure who their intended audience is for their remarks.
I'm talking about guys who say things like 'smell of fish' and other witticisms.

I've also noticed an antipathy towards trans people, again, quite why, I've no idea.

Butterface

My closest male friend is gay, and I have good friendships with other gay guys within our circle. I've had plenty of negative experiences with gay men in LGBT bars and nightclubs. I've heard too many insults about women's weight to possibly recount - about straight and lesbian women. I socialise with a lot of straight guys and it is rare that I'd hear such vicious comments from them (although perhaps they refrain from saying it in front of me cos I'd bate them!).

In terms of groping, while I can't recall it ever happening to me, I have seen this happen on a regular basis. I've seen friends of mine do it to straight and lesbian women, and while I can't be sure that the girls were too bothered by it, I sure as hell would be!

Kimia

This is so bizarre, I was just talking to a friend about this very thing. I have friends who are lesbians and I have witnessed firsthand hostility towards them from gay men. It's very strange. These men get on great with straight women but gay women, they are very hostile towards. I can't really wrap my head around it. It's so contradictory, you would think that they would be tolerant but I find sometimes the opposite is true.

Ambersky

There is another very popular gay forum, not boards.ie, that I use to post on and I quit posting there because of the attitude to lesbians.
Really glad to read this issue being talked about because in the past I have felt attacked for bringing it up.
Found another interesting article on the issue here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8278398.stm

Here are some quotes

I think it might be partly a case of sexism. Women are still judged on their looks and gay men- who stereotypically are supposed to have a more developed aestetic awareness - consider themselves well placed to make comments about the beauty or otherwise of stereotypically "ugly" lesbians
Editor Diva Magazine

Nick Maxwell, who works at Age Concern developing services for older LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) groups, says the kind of comments gay women are sometimes subjected to from gay men include suggestions they're fat, ugly, they hate men and they wear dungarees.

"It creates an animosity and it's self-perpetuating because the men have their groups, the women have their groups, and they don't understand each other's concerns. Homophobia is massively under-reported yet we have it within our own community. It's all totally unacceptable and needs to be challenged, wherever it comes from."

It's difficult to get women involved in LGBT projects, he says, because as women they may already have been treated as second-class citizens, then derisory comments from men, particularly from men within their own community, reinforce that sense of exclusion.

Annasopra

That's a very relevant point about cissexism links

Do you think that this sexism/cissexism is a group thing?

I find myself that I get on well with a lot of gay males as individuals but sometimes when they get together as a group of gay men I find they can be incredibly bitchy and nasty.

baby and crumble

mango salsa wrote: »

That's a very relevant point about cissexism links

Do you think that this sexism/cissexism is a group thing?

I find myself that I get on well with a lot of gay males as individuals but sometimes when they get together as a group of gay men I find they can be incredibly bitchy and nasty.

I think any time a bunch of like-minded individuals get together it can cause bitchiness or cliquiest. Get a bunch of women together and you'll often get more bitchiness than 1-1; groups of lads will often egg each other on to say and do things as individuals they never would. It's one of the fundamentals if social psychology, at least I reckon so.

LeeHoffmann

I´ve only known 6 or so gay men and 3 gay women so I don´t have a lot of experience but I´ve never come across even a hint of the attitude being discussed here. Not saying it doesn´t happen, just I´ve never experienced it

seenitall

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I´ve only known 6 or so gay men and 3 gay women so I don´t have a lot of experience but I´ve never come across even a hint of the attitude being discussed here. Not saying it doesn´t happen, just I´ve never experienced it

Yeah, I'd be similar as to the amount of gay acquaintances, and I can say same here, thankfully.

I've been touched by gay men (only two or three) in a way that while I was fine with it, I don't know why. If it was anyone else, even a close female friend, I wouldn't be ok with it. I guess there's such a taboo at this stage about not being comfortable with someone being gay that people have a tendency to overcompensate by being over affectionate and over touchy-feely with them if they're acting that way with you.

This would have been when I was in my teens though, and these days I don't think any gay men I know would ever do that, and if they did I'd certainly stop them. I'm not sure I'd necessarily call it sexism though. If anything I'd say it had more to do with the stereotypes of gay males in the media (i.e. made to feel like it's their thing) rather than a particular view of women.

ashers22

Only within the gay scene, with derogatory remarks and high levels of disgust directed at gay women. As has already been noted, the gay scene/community/culture seems to be driven almost completely to cater for gay men, and women are secondary after thoughts on almost all counts.

Ambersky

I hope I am not going off track here but I don't really understand drag as seen in gay male culture.
I can understand a man wanting to wear what is traditionally thought of as women's clothes and make up and would fully support that. I am not talking about transvestism but that kind of over the top often bitchy parodying of women.
Some drag queens seem to have a kind of dignity about them or a down to earth humour, but others seem to me to be insulting to women in their portrayal of us. Why is that? What is it about their relationship with women that brings them to do that.

Lyaiera

Ambersky wrote: »

I hope I am not going off track here but I don't really understand drag as seen in gay male culture.
I can understand a man wanting to wear what is traditionally thought of as women's clothes and make up and would fully support that. I am not talking about transvestism but that kind of over the top often bitchy parodying of women.
Some drag queens seem to have a kind of dignity about them or a down to earth humour, but others seem to me to be insulting to women in their portrayal of us. Why is that? What is it about their relationship with women that brings them to do that.

I've asked people before their opinion on drag queens and the general answer seems to be, "Ah it's just a bit of fun, it's a stage show." I've never found a reason to see why I shouldn't be insulted though.

Vojera

I've only ever had one instance where a gay guy (who I knew for a while) got grope-happy with me, and when I called him on it his attitude was, like has been mentioned, "Sure I'm gay, it means nothing". He couldn't understand that touching women without their permission is a type of assault, he saw it all as a bit of fun. Needless to say we didn't remain friends. I'm not opposed to the odd booby-grope from friends, but only if I say so.

As for gay men's attitude towards women and lesbians, I've never been subjected to anything derogatory or had anything said to me, but I've met a fair few who just seem to travel in male-only circles and who don't seem to know what to say to a girl if they can't talk about clothes. I always thought that was a bit strange.

syjg18

I have a lot of gay friends. I haven't experienced groping I think it's because we are from a conservative country. Well, culture is another factor.