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Biblical Miracles

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    #182
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Zombrex wrote: »
    So basically you believe in a deity because it makes more sense to you that the universe was created by something intelligent, than any alternative, but you have no way to support this conclusion other than it makes sense to you, personally.

    Have you ever looked into hyperactive agency detection?

    I am very aware of it. However, it presupposes that the brain is hardwired and we are stuck with certain cognitive behaviors and beliefs. I don't deny at all it is there, and there is plenty evidence of it, but (and its a big but) the brain is not hardwired, it is plastic. We are not stuck with the brains we were born with or rather developed during our early development.

    I suggest you look into neuroplasticity.

    I have personally long ago discarded most of my superstitions, it is not easy but not as hard as helping those with dehabilitating conditions like severe OCD and ADHD.


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    #183
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    nagirrac wrote: »
    I am very aware of it. However, it presupposes that the brain is hardwired and we are stuck with certain cognitive behaviors and beliefs. I don't deny at all it is there, and there is plenty evidence of it, but (and its a big but) the brain is not hardwired, it is plastic. We are not stuck with the brains we were born with or rather developed during our early development.

    I suggest you look into neuroplasticity.

    I have personally long ago discarded most of my superstitions, it is not easy but not as hard as helping those with dehabilitating conditions like severe OCD and ADHD.

    Well clearly you haven't since you still believe in a deity and support that belief solely through the idea that it makes sense to you, which is basically the text book example of HAD.

    Its is a bit like saying you know a lot of mediums are fake but you are sure the one you went to was really talking to your grand mother.

    The brain is plastic but just because it is doesn't mean HAD is real and doesn't explain your belief in a deity.


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    #184
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,262 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I admit to being a bit lazy here. Haven't read all of this thread yet.

    Has the 'Miracle of the Juniper Bush' been discussed yet?


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    #185
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Ironically, in the Bible. And it's not a theological argument, it is a psychological one. Jesus, as described in the Bible, fits a common profile for a cult leader con man

    Jesus follows all the standard plays of a egotistical con man cult leader. The New Testament is practically a text book on how to run a cult.

    Con artists are generally not inclined to get themselves killed though as there is not much material benefit to death and crucifixation sounds a bit painful. If you believe what's in the New Testament, and it sounds like you do, then why when he was give the opportunity to renounce his beliefs by Pilate did he decline? Strange behavior for a con man.

    No, I'll believe my own interpretation, he went against the teaching of the Jewish council at the time and got himself killed.. and that's all I have to say on the matter as I already used up all my interest in the subject.


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    #186
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Con artists are generally not inclined to get themselves killed though as there is not much material benefit to death and crucifixation sounds a bit painful. If you believe what's in the New Testament, and it sounds like you do, then why when he was give the opportunity to renounce his beliefs by Pilate did he decline? Strange behavior for a con man.

    Not at all.

    Assuming that actually happen, rather than an invention of early Christianity (it is equally plausible Jesus begged for his life but was executed anyway and his followers, refusing to believe this, created the Biblical account), this is not inconsistent with con men cult leaders. Jim Jones shot himself in the head, he didn't even need to be executed.


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    #187
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Con artists are generally not inclined to get themselves killed though as there is not much material benefit to death and crucifixation sounds a bit painful. If you believe what's in the New Testament, and it sounds like you do, then why when he was give the opportunity to renounce his beliefs by Pilate did he decline? Strange behavior for a con man.
    Why didn't Jim Jones? Why didn't Joseph Smith? Why didn't L. Ron Hubbard? Why didn't David Koresh?


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    #188
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Well clearly you haven't since you still believe in a deity and support that belief solely through the idea that it makes sense to you, which is basically the text book example of HAD.

    Its is a bit like saying you know a lot of mediums are fake but you are sure the one you went to was really talking to your grand mother.

    The brain is plastic but just because it is doesn't mean HAD is real and doesn't explain your belief in a deity.

    Are you an actual psychologist or an amateur psychologist? If and when I need the help of one I will surely consider you, although given the frequency that psychologists have been wrong maybe not.

    My agnositic deist belief is based on my many decades of study, during which time I started as as a Catholic (involuntary), then moved to being irreligious, was an atheist quite a long time, and then moved to my current position. Maybe you can outline how HAD explains that?


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    #189
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,262 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Are you an actual psychologist or an amateur psychologist? If and when I need the help of one I will surely consider you, although given the frequency that psychologists have been wrong maybe not.

    My agnositic deist belief is based on my many decades of study, during which time I started as as a Catholic (involuntary), then moved to being irreligious, was an atheist quite a long time, and then moved to my current position. Maybe you can outline how HAD explains that?
    Is this a little disingenuous? 'Diagnose/analyse me and my fluctuating beliefs on the basis of forum posts'?An amateur couldn't. A professional wouldn't.

    Doesn't invalidate the point.


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    #190
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Not at all.

    Assuming that actually happen, rather than an invention of early Christianity (it is equally plausible Jesus begged for his life but was executed anyway and his followers, refusing to believe this, created the Biblical account), this is not inconsistent with con men cult leaders. Jim Jones shot himself in the head, he didn't even need to be executed.

    So you believe one thing you read in the bible but not another, how consistent. I am not a Christian so I'm not sure why you feel the need to convince me of Jesus being a con man. You can knock Jesus all you like, makes no diference to me nor my beliefs.

    I do find it hilarious though when atheists claim the bible is a bunch of malarkey that no reasonable person would believe and then start to reference it to make their case. Classic.


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    #191
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Are you an actual psychologist or an amateur psychologist? If and when I need the help of one I will surely consider you, although given the frequency that psychologists have been wrong maybe not.

    My agnositic deist belief is based on my many decades of study, during which time I started as as a Catholic (involuntary), then moved to being irreligious, was an atheist quite a long time, and then moved to my current position. Maybe you can outline how HAD explains that?

    HAD explains your current position. I've no idea why you were a Catholic because you have said nothing about it.

    Are you saying that HAD cannot explain why you currently believe in a creator deity based on your personal assessment of the world and what you believe would be necessary to produce it?

    Perhaps you don't really follow what HAD says. Cause like I said earlier, you are a text book example.


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    #192
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    I'm confused nagirrac, if you're a deist then why do you believe in Jesus or anything written in the New Testament? And if you don't think he was a conman, then surely you must think he was the son of God?


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    #193
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    endacl wrote: »
    Is this a little disingenuous? 'Diagnose/analyse me and my fluctuating beliefs on the basis of forum posts'?An amateur couldn't. A professional wouldn't.

    Doesn't invalidate the point.

    but you find it reasonable that I have just been diagnosed with all of the symptoms of HAD? even though I was an atheist and atheists obviously overcome HAD.
    How do you think in general atheists overcome HAD?
    Let's leave me out of it.


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    #194
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    nagirrac wrote: »
    So you believe one thing you read in the bible but not another, how consistent.

    Entirely consistent given what the New Testament is, a propaganda book written by a religion in its early stages interested in recruiting new members and forming a consistent doctrine of belief.

    Would you believe everything as written in L Ron Hubbards accounts of his life? Or even Donald Trump?

    If not would you dismiss it all in its entirety?


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    #195
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,262 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    nagirrac wrote: »
    but you find it reasonable that I have just been diagnosed with all of the symptoms of HAD? even though I was an atheist and atheists obviously overcome HAD.
    How do you think in general atheists overcome HAD?
    Let's leave me out of it.
    Despite my previous....





    .... methinks nagirrac doth protest too much...


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    #196
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Zombrex wrote: »
    HAD explains your current position. I've no idea why you were a Catholic because you have said nothing about it.

    Are you saying that HAD cannot explain why you currently believe in a creator deity based on your personal assessment of the world and what you believe would be necessary to produce it?

    Perhaps you don't really follow what HAD says. Cause like I said earlier, you are a text book example.

    The "involuntary" part of being a Catholic might be a clue:rolleyes:
    Please explain in general terms how atheists overcome HAD?
    and then in those that change their position how HAD mysteriously reemerges?
    I am coming to the conclusion you are a bs artist who has read a few fancy terms and has no understanding of them.


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    #197
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    nagirrac wrote: »
    but you find it reasonable that I have just been diagnosed with all of the symptoms of HAD? even though I was an atheist and atheists obviously overcome HAD.
    How do you think in general atheists overcome HAD?
    Let's leave me out of it.

    HAD isn't a disease, it is the nature of how the brain works.

    One does not over come it, one merely recognise it happens and proceeds accordingly.

    You aren't an atheist, you believe in a creator deity and base this belief on a personal assessment of the world around you.


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    #198
    Improbable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    nagirrac wrote: »
    As far as the emergence of life as a logical argument for a creator, I would say there is a logical argument from reasonable people and not those on opposite ends of the belief spectrum based on at least 5 questions:

    How did the universe emerge, how did it emerge with its natural laws, how did life emerge, what explains the intelligence in the universe, and how did the human mind emerge. At this point we have conjecture and speculation from science on all these questions and we also have the issue of belief (when these questions are combined) that a creator is the most likely source. There is considerable overlap in that many scientists and indeed many leading scientists are deists or theists. When science knocks off one of them I will be more convinced in a pointless random universe.

    So your contention would be that there are 2 groups of people, scientists who just speculate and guess (a statement that I do not agree with) and people who simply have belief in a supernatural being. Let's ignore actual people and look at the concepts involved. As I said, I do not believe that scientists make claims without a basis in some sort of rational thought which usually includes an analysis of prior knowledge and using their considerable collective skills and expertise in order to devise a working model of what may accurately describe the universe we experience. People who have a belief in a supernatural entity do so entirely without any rational reason.

    But my major point is the following: There are logical, science or reason based answers to each of your questions. Not full answers obviously but what scientists do present is logical. But you are once again moving the goalposts. I quite directly asked you about evolutionary biology (not the origin of the universe and the rest of it) and the reason why it shows that there is a supernatural entity involved. The idea was to narrow it down to one specific topic so we could deal with specific issues and hash them out logically. So far, none of the material you have provided on that topic has lent itself to the idea that a supernatural entity was involved.

    Putting that aside, even if we knew absolutely nothing about the answer to all of those questions, it still would not imply that a supernatural entity was involved. In the 5 questions, your argument still takes the form of "we don't know X works", therefore belief in a supernatural entity is right thing to do.

    This is, as I have stated previously, a logical fallacy. It is a god of the gaps argument. The fact that we may not know something about a topic does not mean that you can rationally claim that it was the work of a supernatural entity.


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    #199
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    endacl wrote: »
    Despite my previous....





    .... methinks nagirrac doth protest too much...

    no answers then? but you have given me a most excellent suggestion with your reason for editing, thank you.


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    #200
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    nagirrac wrote: »
    The "involuntary" part of being a Catholic might be a clue:rolleyes:
    Please explain in general terms how atheists overcome HAD?

    That's easy, they don't. You can't.

    It's one of the reasons atheists are more prone to stress and depression that theists.

    I'm as prone to HAD as you are, which is a good reason not to put much weight in my personal assessment of agency in nature.
    I am coming to the conclusion you are a bs artist who has read a few fancy terms and has no understanding of them.

    Don't get snotty with me because a flaw in your justification for you belief in a deity has been pointed out. You were the one claiming your belief was sound and reasonable.


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    #201
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    nagirrac wrote: »
    I am coming to the conclusion you are a bs artist who has read a few fancy terms and has no understanding of them.
    Lol. Most ironic statement you've made yet.


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    #202
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,262 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    nagirrac wrote: »
    no answers then? but you have given me a most excellent suggestion with your reason for editing, thank you.
    Pardon my honesty. In vino veritas....


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    #203
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    I'm confused nagirrac, if you're a deist then why do you believe in Jesus or anything written in the New Testament? And if you don't think he was a conman, then surely you must think he was the son of God?

    an agnostic deist MM, I lean that way.
    Where did I say I believed in anything in the New Testament? I merely questioned Zombrex on his conspiracy theory out of curiosity. My non-conspiracy theory is that he did a bit of preaching, upset the Jewish council and got himself crucified, thats it really.
    Hard to follow your logic I am afraid. I truly have no strong feelings about Jesus at all, just find it a bit strange that atheists have such as interest in religion.


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    #204
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    nagirrac wrote: »
    an agnostic deist MM, I lean that way.
    Where did I say I believed in anything in the New Testament? I merely questioned Zombrex on his conspiracy theory out of curiosity. My non-conspiracy theory is that he did a bit of preaching, upset the Jewish council and got himself crucified, thats it really.
    Hard to follow your logic I am afraid. I truly have no strong feelings about Jesus at all, just find it a bit strange that atheists have such as interest in religion.

    Magics point was that if you don't believe he was the son of God you must believe he was lying or utterly deluded. If he was lying he was a con artist.

    That is hardly a "conspiracy theory" :rolleyes:


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    #205
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Magics point was that if you don't believe he was the son of God you must believe he was lying or utterly deluded. If he was lying he was a con artist.

    That is hardly a "conspiracy theory" :rolleyes:

    Personally I doubt that the man existed at all. :)


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    #206
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Don't get snotty with me because a flaw in your justification for you belief in a deity has been pointed out. You were the one claiming your belief was sound and reasonable.

    Sorry about the snottiness, I have a glass of wine now so things are much improved.
    I fundamentally disagree with those that believe the brain is hardwired and we are stuck with certain conditions, that "that is just the way the brain works". I have seen too many people overcome great mental challenges to believe that anymore. The brain can be rewired in fact you are rewiring it every time you think the same thought over and over or concentrate on certain subjects, or read something an "get it". People cannot escape depression and become more depressed because they obsess on depressive thought patterns and their brain gets wired that way.
    Its not that long ago that psychologists believed those with psychopathic behavior were born that way and it was "in their brains". That has long been discarded and it is now formly believed that sociopaths (they even had to change the name) develop due to their upbringing (mainly traumas during upbringing).


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    #207
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    pauldla wrote: »
    Personally I doubt that the man existed at all. :)

    I think it is highly likely he existed, nothing in the NT is particularly unusual for a cult. The stories probably came from some where and the most likely explanation is an egomaniac cult leader who ended up being executed and who was replaced by an imposter for a short time after his death. This fits with the Biblical account and is entirely plausible.


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    #208
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Magics point was that if you don't believe he was the son of God you must believe he was lying or utterly deluded. If he was lying he was a con artist.

    That is hardly a "conspiracy theory" :rolleyes:

    I believe we are all sons of God in that without the creator we would not be here. So, assuming Jesus existed he was not lying about that.
    I think my idea of a creator is what is causing a lot of the confusion here.


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    #209
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Sorry about the snottiness, I have a glass of wine now so things are much improved.
    I fundamentally disagree with those that believe the brain is hardwired and we are stuck with certain conditions, that "that is just the way the brain works". I have seen too many people overcome great mental challenges to believe that anymore. The brain can be rewired in fact you are rewiring it every time you think the same thought over and over or concentrate on certain subjects, or read something an "get it". People cannot escape depression and become more depressed because they obsess on depressive thought patterns and their brain gets wired that way.

    Can you re wire your brain not to recognise faces in patterns or re write your brain not to think in 3 dimensional space when viewing a 2d photograph of a place?

    Like it or not a ton of our brain function is hard wired. If it wasn't you wouldn't be able to function.
    Its not that long ago that psychologists believed those with psychopathic behavior were born that way and it was "in their brains". That has long been discarded and it is now formly believed that sociopaths (they even had to change the name) develop due to their upbringing (mainly traumas during upbringing).
    Is there any evidence that HAD is produced by up bringing, or can be re wired

    Because merely pointing out that some things can is not evidence all can or HAD can.


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    #210
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,262 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Sorry about the snottiness, I have a glass of wine now so things are much improved.
    CLINK!

    ;)


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    #211
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    nagirrac wrote: »
    I believe we are all sons of God in that without the creator we would not be here. So, assuming Jesus existed he was not lying about that.
    I think my idea of a creator is what is causing a lot of the confusion here.

    How disingenuous of you, given that Jesus did not claim that we are all the son of God, just him.

    Do you believe Jesus performed supernatural miracles, such as curing sickness by expelling demons?


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