Replacing a Ferroli Tempra Boiler

iba

Hi,

I have a ferroli Tempra Boiler which is about 12 years old.

Im considering replacing it with a Condensing Boiler to make it more energy efficent.

I would appreciate it if someone could advise:

A)if they think that this is a good idea;
B)which condensing boiler would they recommend; and
C)how much would a job like this cost

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Iba

corkgsxr

ya they are better boilers. depending on condition on the old one you save about 10-15 %

id install baxi or worchester bosch

cost a about 1500 all in

if you no longer have a bath, what i do in alot of places is get rid of the hot cylinder and install a combi boiler. instant hot water, saves ya heating the cylinder too. cost no extra to do

GASMANN

corkgsxr wrote: »

ya they are better boilers. depending on condition on the old one you save about 10-15 %

id install baxi or worchester bosch

cost a about 1500 all in

if you no longer have a bath, what i do in alot of places is get rid of the hot cylinder and install a combi boiler. instant hot water, saves ya heating the cylinder too. cost no extra to do

?????

Markcheese

A bit daft but is your current system working ok.. ??
And how much in running costs do you expect to save ??
Cos it'll cost 1500/ 2000 to change over( open to correction )
Give the condensing boiler a life of 10/ 15 years you could spend a couple of hundred( a year) to save a couple of hundred....
Don't get me wrong I wouldn't spend any more than service money on the old unit .. But if you spent 2 / 3 hundred a year on draught proofing, heating controls, extra insulation you'd save way more and prob be more comfortable...

corkgsxr

GASMANN wrote: »

?????

question marks tell me nothing.

baths are the main reason for a copper cylinder. takes alot to heat it.

alot of houses are taking out baths and putting in proper showers. majority go for electric showers. so if you use hot water your heating the cylinder for a kitchen and basin tap.

if your changing your boiler anyway. fit a combi instead of a normal one. chuck the hot cylinder. you have pressureised hot water. and only heated when ya need it.

and alot of the combi`s theres feck all in the price difference with the boiler.


without the cylinder, you radiators heat faster too.

whats wrong with that

iba

corkgsxr wrote: »

ya they are better boilers. depending on condition on the old one you save about 10-15 %

id install baxi or worchester bosch

cost a about 1500 all in

if you no longer have a bath, what i do in alot of places is get rid of the hot cylinder and install a combi boiler. instant hot water, saves ya heating the cylinder too. cost no extra to do

Hi

Thanks for your reply but Im afraid that I dont really understand, I thought that you could still keep the bath but get rid of the cylinder in the hot press.

Well thats what I thought the following paragraph from SEAI website meant:

'A ‘combi’ boiler is a boiler which combines both a conventional boiler for radiators and an independent water heater, together in the one unit. This dispenses with the hot water cylinder in the hotpress. But better still, it means that hot water is always available instantly and for as long as you need it'

Regards

Iba

corkgsxr

be abit slow to fill a bath.

better to have a large body of hot water to draw on

iba

Markcheese wrote: »

A bit daft but is your current system working ok.. ??
And how much in running costs do you expect to save ??
Cos it'll cost 1500/ 2000 to change over( open to correction )
Give the condensing boiler a life of 10/ 15 years you could spend a couple of hundred( a year) to save a couple of hundred....
Don't get me wrong I wouldn't spend any more than service money on the old unit .. But if you spent 2 / 3 hundred a year on draught proofing, heating controls, extra insulation you'd save way more and prob be more comfortable...

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

My system is working ok as far as I know. Its just I heard that the boiler I have is not very energy efficent and also that it should be replaced after approx 12 years.

Regards

iba

iba

corkgsxr wrote: »

be abit slow to fill a bath.

better to have a large body of hot water to draw on

Ah ok - but it would be ok just for a shower?

Markcheese

iba wrote: »

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

My system is working ok as far as I know. Its just I heard that the boiler I have is not very energy efficent and also that it should be replaced after approx 12 years.

Regards

iba

Well after 12 or so years I wouldn't plan on spending money on it ...(other than a service) .. But if runs fine and your not going to save massively on fuel.. Then look at where you can make your house more energy efficent to get more return for your cash...
A bit like with a car... Would you get rid of a perfectly good 10 year old car and spend 15 /20 grand to save 200 on fuel and 200 on tax a year... You'll have to at some point but keep yr money in yr pocket for now...

iba

Markcheese wrote: »

Well after 12 or so years I wouldn't plan on spending money on it ...(other than a service) .. But if runs fine and your not going to save massively on fuel.. Then look at where you can make your house more energy efficent to get more return for your cash...
A bit like with a car... Would you get rid of a perfectly good 10 year old car and spend 15 /20 grand to save 200 on fuel and 200 on tax a year... You'll have to at some point but keep yr money in yr pocket for now...

Thanks very much for your thoughts.

Regards

Iba

corkgsxr

iba wrote: »

Ah ok - but it would be ok just for a shower?

Ya a lot of apartments do it that way, much better off with a thermostatic shower though, like the Mira coda pro

iba

corkgsxr wrote: »

Ya a lot of apartments do it that way, much better off with a thermostatic shower though, like the Mira coda pro

I actually have an Electric Trition shower.

My boiler is primarily used for just heating the rads and for when the wife wants a bath.

JohnnieK

If it's working ok I would leave it. Once it's serviced properly it should keep going. It's at the age where manufactures will say that parts may start to fail.

I fit a lot of combination boilers and there are a lot of factors to take into account.
The mains water running pressure will need to be checked and the flow rate will need to be checked with a weir gauge.
The gas line more than likely will need to be upgraded as a combination boiler will not perform properly on a half inch gas supply.
If you live in a dwelling with a bath a 30kW combi is what you need, it will tackle a bath no problem
If you have a bath mixer tap and you put in a combi this tap will no longer work as the hot will push the cold back and this goes for any mixer.

If you put a combi in you can qualify for a grant from SEAI as it automatically by design separate's the heating from the hot water.

If your current boiler is working fine then leave it alone and wait untill the worst of the cold weather is over and then have another think about it.
If you just swap your boiler with out any means of control then you would be luck to see a 10% saving on your bills.

GASMANN

corkgsxr wrote: »

question marks tell me nothing.

baths are the main reason for a copper cylinder. takes alot to heat it.

alot of houses are taking out baths and putting in proper showers. majority go for electric showers. so if you use hot water your heating the cylinder for a kitchen and basin tap.

if your changing your boiler anyway. fit a combi instead of a normal one. chuck the hot cylinder. you have pressureised hot water. and only heated when ya need it.

and alot of the combi`s theres feck all in the price difference with the boiler.


without the cylinder, you radiators heat faster too.

whats wrong with that

how can you charge the same price for a straight bolier replacement as installling a combi and removing h.w cylinder and all the bits and pieces of pipework that go with it.
and €1500 all in for a swap on its own sounds very light when you take your flushing costs, magna filter, inhibiting, certification and vat into account.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

question marks tell me nothing.

baths are the main reason for a copper cylinder. takes alot to heat it.

alot of houses are taking out baths and putting in proper showers. majority go for electric showers. so if you use hot water your heating the cylinder for a kitchen and basin tap.

if your changing your boiler anyway. fit a combi instead of a normal one. chuck the hot cylinder. you have pressureised hot water. and only heated when ya need it.

and alot of the combi`s theres feck all in the price difference with the boiler.


without the cylinder, you radiators heat faster too.

whats wrong with that

Well as you asked;) it's sloppy advice, which brings very little clarity to the different characteristics between stored hot water and instantaneous hot water, you don't mention the importance of mains pressure for combi's and you've decided that baths are the deciding factor in cylinder sizing when hot water usage is calculated, a family of shower users may require as much hot water as someone who loves their radox moments. Also system design has a bigger impact on heating performance and not the cylinder.

Combi's were never designed for family homes, they were designed for apartments where space was a premium, modern combis do give better performance but require decent mains pressure(asper JohnnieK) and more awareness from the customer on the performance changes at the tap as more taps are opened.

corkgsxr

GASMANN wrote: »

how can you charge the same price for a straight bolier replacement as installling a combi and removing h.w cylinder and all the bits and pieces of pipework that go with it.
and €1500 all in for a swap on its own sounds very light when you take your flushing costs, magna filter, inhibiting, certification and vat into account.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

No magna that only of someone wants, or system drains very bad.

Boilers cost very close to the same, the cylinder and pipework will easy offset the cost of extra

JohnnieK

What power flushing machine and chemicals do you use?

corkgsxr

gary71 wrote: »

Well as you asked;) it's sloppy advice, which brings very little clarity to the different characteristics between stored hot water and instantaneous hot water, you don't mention the importance of mains pressure for combi's and you've decided that baths are the deciding factor in cylinder sizing when hot water usage is calculated, a family of shower users may require as much hot water as someone who loves their radox moments. Also system design has a bigger impact on heating performance and not the cylinder.

Combi's were never designed for family homes, they were designed for apartments where space was a premium, modern combis do give better performance but require decent mains pressure(asper JohnnieK) and more awareness from the customer on the performance changes at the tap as more taps are opened.

it was a suggestion, obviously if it doesnt suit the house you cant do it but it makes him aware of the idea. then he can ask the relevant plumber can i do this. modern combi`s 26ish kw will supply most showers (except very high output eg drench showers) any taps. in the average house, a 26kw combi will supply everything fine. except a bath would be abit slow.

and take away a cylinder and your radiators will heat faster. theres less heat demand.

JohnnieK wrote: »

What power flushing machine and chemicals do you use?

i dont power flush them. i drain, fill, run and drain again. this is all 95 % of systems need. and places with a sludge problem you need to find why they do. a system will not build up large amounts of sludge if its working properly

and chemicals, either heat merchents or protex inhibitor. if later they have problems with pressure drop eg after pressurizing a previously open system. i use re-pair fluid

Jazzmaster

A Ferroli Tempra boiler is quoted as being 78% efficient. Pretty much all the modern condensing gas boilers are 90 or 91% efficient. Figure out how much you spend on gas per year and do the maths. You can see for yourself how long it'll take for the new boiler to pay for itself.

Spending €4-500 on flushing a heating system that is performing quite adequately seems to me to be a waste of money especially on a system with a gas boiler. Solid fuel and oil systems can sludge up a lot because of the bigger boilers but a gas boiler's heat exchanger is tiny in comparison.

Get some quotes and do some homework on gas boiler performance but to me it's hard to get a bad boiler these days unless you're looking for the cheapest option. I generally install Baxi or Ferroli depending on the system requirements.

GASMANN

corkgsxr wrote: »

it was a suggestion, obviously if it doesnt suit the house you cant do it but it makes him aware of the idea. then he can ask the relevant plumber can i do this. modern combi`s 26ish kw will supply most showers (except very high output eg drench showers) any taps. in the average house, a 26kw combi will supply everything fine. except a bath would be abit slow.

and take away a cylinder and your radiators will heat faster. theres less heat demand.



i dont power flush them. i drain, fill, run and drain again. this is all 95 % of systems need. and places with a sludge problem you need to find why they do. a system will not build up large amounts of sludge if its working properly

and chemicals, either heat merchents or protex inhibitor. if later they have problems with pressure drop eg after pressurizing a previously open system. i use re-pair fluid

is this acording to you or to the boiler manufacturers?

Jazzmaster wrote: »

A Ferroli Tempra boiler is quoted as being 78% efficient. Pretty much all the modern condensing gas boilers are 90 or 91% efficient. Figure out how much you spend on gas per year and do the maths. You can see for yourself how long it'll take for the new boiler to pay for itself.

Spending €4-500 on flushing a heating system that is performing quite adequately seems to me to be a waste of money especially on a system with a gas boiler. Solid fuel and oil systems can sludge up a lot because of the bigger boilers but a gas boiler's heat exchanger is tiny in comparison.

Get some quotes and do some homework on gas boiler performance but to me it's hard to get a bad boiler these days unless you're looking for the cheapest option. I generally install Baxi or Ferroli depending on the system requirements.

wow.

corkgsxr

GASMANN wrote: »

is this acording to you or to the boiler manufacturers?



wow.

If the rads heat up without cold spots, drain reasonablely clean, why does it need a powerflush?

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

If the rads heat up without cold spots, drain reasonablely clean, why does it need a powerflush?

To add a inhibitor to a heating system that isn't clean can lead to system water that is aggressive to plastics, dramatically shorting the lifespan of a boiler, the reason expansion vessels, AAV, O-rings, pumps etc.. fail is mainly due to bad working practices by some installers, manufactures require clean system water without any contamination because the link between contaminated water and a shortened lifespan of gas boilers is proven.

Jazzmaster

corkgsxr wrote: »

If the rads heat up without cold spots, drain reasonablely clean, why does it need a powerflush?

My thoughts exactly. No doubt power flushing has it's benefits for some systems but to suggest that every system that's more than a few years old needs it is laughable. A dose of system cleanser and, afterwards, inhibitor is all that most systems need. Smacks of scaremongering.

Jazzmaster

Jazzmaster wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. No doubt power flushing has it's benefits for some systems but to suggest that every system that's more than a few years old needs it is laughable. A dose of system cleanser and, afterwards, inhibitor is all that most systems need. Smacks of scaremongering.

As a manufactures technician I get to see the impact different working practices have on a gas installation, from my experience I would want my house power flushed before a boiler is fitted, it's not a hardship, it reduces the likelihood of contamination issues later on and is classed as good working practice.

You mention scaremongering which is a first and a bit silly, power flushing is a tool and has a purpose, a power flush is required when contamination in a heating system warrants it and before a boiler is fitted to a older or questionable system, you mention power flushing a system that's only a few years old why? A new boiler should last many years so why flush after a few years unless the system is contaminated.

shane0007

Jazzmaster wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. No doubt power flushing has it's benefits for some systems but to suggest that every system that's more than a few years old needs it is laughable. A dose of system cleanser and, afterwards, inhibitor is all that most systems need. Smacks of scaremongering.

So why do you think manufacturers also require installers to Powerflush brand new heating systems?

Jazzmaster

I've been reading a lot of threads in the plumbing section and it seems to me that some of the installers? rgi's? plumbers? powerflush heating systems as a matter of course whether the system may need it or not. It goes without saying that a clean system will perform better than a sludge filled system but just how clean does a heating system need to be? That's the point I was raising about it. Most systems respond perfectly well to cleanser and, afterwards, inhibitor.

If boilers are that sensitive the perhaps the manufacturers should be building more robust units. I've been installing for almost 20 years and the only boilers I've seen fail prematurely, besides the odd Monday morning one, are ones which were fitted on a leaky system and also boilers from a certain manufacturer which had a poor finish on some components which caused o-ring failure on a large batch of boilers.

GASMANN

how is the fuel being burnt relative to system contamination ?

Jazzmaster

shane0007 wrote: »

So why do you think manufacturers also require installers to Powerflush brand new heating systems?

I just checked a Ferroli Optimax manual and it says the system should be cleaned and flushed and then treated with an inhibitor. No mention of power flushing. The same in British Standards.

Jazzmaster

Jazzmaster wrote: »

If boilers are that sensitive the perhaps the manufacturers should be building more robust units. .

I'v been a gasman for a while and the issues I'm faced with now are the same as they were 25 years ago, contaminated water has a aggressive impact on boilers, when components fail how often is the cause correctly identified, o-rings become brittle, pump impellers can expand etc... You blame the manufacture, I blame the fruitloops who can't follow a manual with colour pictures because they have decided they know better and don't understand that by not following MI their actions can lead to needless drama(at times), MI are there to get the best out of the appliance why ignore them

JohnnieK

Any boiler I've installed the system has been dirty. I'm glad I've flushed them. Older gas boilers had large water ways and sludge didn't really bother them, but new boilers have small water ways and if any s hit is in the system it will make its way back to the boiler.

Anyway i don't know why we are having this conversation as all manufacturers want the systems flushed to a .BS standard (can't remember the number) or the warranty is void. It's in black and white in the manual.

Jazzmaster

gary71 wrote: »

I'v been a gasman for a while and the issues I'm faced with now are the same as they were 25 years ago, contaminated water has a aggressive impact on boilers, when components fail how often is the cause correctly identified, o-rings become brittle, pump impellers can expand etc... You blame the manufacture, I blame the fruitloops who can't follow a manual with colour pictures because they have decided they know better and don't understand that by not following MI their actions can lead to needless drama(at times), MI are there to get the best out of the appliance why ignore them

Why pick one part of my reply to disagree with without taking the rest into consideration? I just quoted some manufacturers instructions about flushing and cleaning. Power flushing wasn't mentioned but you ignored that because it didn't agree with your point.

I've said more than once that power flushing has it's place but it's not needed on most systems. Cleanser followed by inhibitor is perfectly adequate for all but heavily sludged systems.

Jazzmaster

Jazzmaster wrote: »

Why pick one part of my reply to disagree with without taking the rest into consideration? .

Because I'm grumpy;)

Jazzmaster

gary71 wrote: »

Because I'm grumpy;)

Good man lol

shane0007

Jazzmaster wrote: »

Why pick one part of my reply to disagree with without taking the rest into consideration? I just quoted some manufacturers instructions about flushing and cleaning. Power flushing wasn't mentioned but you ignored that because it didn't agree with your point.

I've said more than once that power flushing has it's place but it's not needed on most systems. Cleanser followed by inhibitor is perfectly adequate for all but heavily sludged systems.

Do you really think draining and refilling a system is flushing?
What about the pipework that is below the drain point?
What about chemical residue?
What about flux residue?
The list can go on and on!
Manufacturers say flush the system, how you do so is upto you but it must be successful otherwise the warranty is null and void. It is very easy to determine if a system has being flushed and it is not just looking for a tick in the box.

Jazzmaster

Jazzmaster wrote: »

I've said more than once that power flushing has it's place but it's not needed on most systems. Cleanser followed by inhibitor is perfectly adequate for all but heavily sludged systems.

To not power flush a exsisting installation is rolling the dice and hoping over time you have nothing comeback and bite you on the arse:eek:, the comebacks that occur rarely involve the installer as i have found as it's a couple of years down the road but it does cost the homeowner €€€ as they pay for damaged components to be replaced and flush, this isn't very nice of a installer to do this to his customer;).

I have a 5 year warranty on my boilers and I get to see first hand the impact not flushing has over the years on some systems and me heart is broke having to be the bearer of bad news:mad:.

If you power flush a exsisting installation as a given which is good working practise you are then taking contamination and all it's drama out of the equation, I don't understand a installer who is aware of the issues that can occur(even rarely) who dosen't power flush to rule contamination out, it's not hard to do, aren't we all in search of that allusive quite life.

Here's a thing a lot of installers don't realise which is to add inhibitor to a heating system that isn't fully clean can at times lead to contaminated water that is very corrosive to any make of boiler, this is due to the inhibitor reacting to the dirt.

corkgsxr

gary71 wrote: »

To add a inhibitor to a heating system that isn't clean can lead to system water that is aggressive to plastics, dramatically shorting the lifespan of a boiler, the reason expansion vessels, AAV, O-rings, pumps etc.. fail is mainly due to bad working practices by some installers, manufactures require clean system water without any contamination because the link between contaminated water and a shortened lifespan of gas boilers is proven.

Clean water with inhibitor is perfectly fine. A tiny amount of stuff isn't going to turn a large body of water into a acid

gary71 wrote: »

As a manufactures technician I get to see the impact different working practices have on a gas installation, from my experience I would want my house power flushed before a boiler is fitted, it's not a hardship, it reduces the likelihood of contamination issues later on and is classed as good working practice.

You mention scaremongering which is a first and a bit silly, power flushing is a tool and has a purpose, a power flush is required when contamination in a heating system warrants it and before a boiler is fitted to a older or questionable system, you mention power flushing a system that's only a few years old why? A new boiler should last many years so why flush after a few years unless the system is contaminated.

Yes I agree, when warranted, or questionable system. Not a system that isn't sludged up, and a properly working system won't sludge up.

GASMANN wrote: »

how is the fuel being burnt relative to system contamination ?

It's not, but a hell of a lot of systems with a back boiler pitch and rust up

shane0007 wrote: »

Do you really think draining and refilling a system is flushing?
What about the pipework that is below the drain point?
What about chemical residue?
What about flux residue?
The list can go on and on!
Manufacturers say flush the system, how you do so is upto you but it must be successful otherwise the warranty is null and void. It is very easy to determine if a system has being flushed and it is not just looking for a tick in the box.

If it's not going to move draining and filling and running for a while before draining again it's not going to move.

In fairness a properly working system will not sludge up. If a system has it has a problem, then powerflush away. But if the water comes out fairly clean there's no need for a powerflush.

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

In fairness a properly working system will not sludge up. If a system has it has a problem, then powerflush away. But if the water comes out fairly clean there's no need for a powerflush.

your confidence doesn't match the reality of the installs I see, not flushing a system holds a risk, why take the risk contaminated water is a very big problem, much bigger than it should be, this is because of the installer and nobody else, good working practise is there for a reason.

I'm telling you as someone who works at the other end of installs to flush and give me and your customers a quite life, if you chose to ignore my advise that's fine, but what does it hurt to power flush if only to shut me up, not flushing is only helpful to the installer and does nothing for the customer except save them a few bob which in fairness is handy to have if it goes pear shaped down the road.

anuprising

thermal imaging camera will check the system for sludge build up and tell you if a powerflush is required .can also show the customers a before and after if a powerflush is required . takes all the guesswork out of it .

corkgsxr

anuprising wrote: »

thermal imaging camera will check the system for sludge build up and tell you if a powerflush is required .can also show the customers a before and after if a powerflush is required . takes all the guesswork out of it .

Grand job ya but I wouldn't be buying one just for that. Catch the rad you can clearly feel the cold bottom.

Changing the boiler you'll be draining anyway. Condition of the water will tell ya how a system is working

I use a water test kit this allows me to precisely measure contamination levels in a heating systems, a thermal imaging camera isn't designed to measure contamination levels in a heating system.

A lot of installers powerflush as a given during boiler exchanges without any drama and it's doesn't seem a hardship for them, knowing the large problem contamination causes with heating systems in general why would a installer not want to power flush explain it to me please, what are the benefits of not doing it?

If those against flushing are right than the worst that will happen is time is wasted but if I'm right then not flushing may cause expensive faults down the road, which are rarely linked to the lack of a flush that caused it.

Now let's talk about auto fillers:D

shane0007

corkgsxr wrote: »

If it's not going to move draining and filling and running for a while before draining again it's not going to move.

You obviously do not understand how a powerflush works or it's capabilities when carried out properly. The very varied choice and functionality of the chosen chemicals has a significant effect on the success of the flush. It is equally important to know what is in the system to know how to remove it, e.g. F3, F5' DS40, etc.

shane0007

anuprising wrote: »

thermal imaging camera will check the system for sludge build up and tell you if a powerflush is required .can also show the customers a before and after if a powerflush is required . takes all the guesswork out of it .

A simple and inexpensive infrared thermometer can be similarly as effective. Pointing it at the various locations across the radiator can highlight the varying temperature differentials.

corkgsxr

shane0007 wrote: »

You obviously do not understand how a powerflush works or it's capabilities when carried out properly. The very varied choice and functionality of the chosen chemicals has a significant effect on the success of the flush. It is equally important to know what is in the system to know how to remove it, e.g. F3, F5' DS40, etc.

Yes I do. Great job for heavily sludged systems. No need for it in most

shane0007

corkgsxr wrote: »

Yes I do. Great job for heavily sludged systems. No need for it in most

As I previously said, you're understandings are limited and you are wasting everyone's time in repeating themselves to you.

corkgsxr

shane0007 wrote: »

As I previously said, you're understandings are limited and you are wasting everyone's time in repeating themselves to you.

You have a flushing machine, your trying to justify it. More time charge more

Sorry OP for my part in ruining your tread:o, I'll have to work harder at not getting caught up in this silliness, there's no fun in it.