Cut or Bulk?

ConorCBS

Hello all. Just looking for a bit of advice.

I am 17 years old, around 6 foot tall and I weigh in or around 155 pounds. I was planning to cut until Christmas as I would like to drop my body fat %. I haven't got it measured yet, but I am guessing that it would be around 15% or so. I am planning on joining the gym in January and bulking up.

I was just wondering is there any point cutting until Christmas before the bulk? I'm not fat or overweight or anything, I just wanted to cut down my body fat %. Would it make more sense to just join the gym next week and start my bulk now?

Would appreciate any opinions.

Chancer3001

Bulk first imo. 155 is pretty light for a 6ft man.

Will Heffernan

ConorCBS wrote: »

Hello all. Just looking for a bit of advice.

I am 17 years old, around 6 foot tall and I weigh in or around 155 pounds. I was planning to cut until Christmas as I would like to drop my body fat %. I haven't got it measured yet, but I am guessing that it would be around 15% or so. I am planning on joining the gym in January and bulking up.

I was just wondering is there any point cutting until Christmas before the bulk? I'm not fat or overweight or anything, I just wanted to cut down my body fat %. Would it make more sense to just join the gym next week and start my bulk now?

Would appreciate any opinions.

1. I understand your desire to 'cut'...chicks dig abs. What I can tell you though is that they also dig money so my advice is to bulk but also get a job.
2. I think at your age you should focus on making gains and filling out your frame. You'll have your whole adult life to worry about your abs what you should be worrying about now is trying to gain as much mass and as weird as this is going to sound....laying down as much bone and thickening your frame as best you can.
3. Bulking doesn't HAVE to be ugly....you don't have to become a complete mess....sure, I agree that is the fun way to do it but you can bulk responsibly like they say in the tv commercials.

ConorCBS

Cheers lads. Bulking it is so. I thought that would be the way to go alright. I am planning on following the Starting Strength program. Would you recommend that program? I've done some reading up on it and I haven't come across any reason not to do it.

I have also been reading up on bulking and I would like to hear your thoughts on that. Do you think I should calorie count and stay strict on my macro-nutrients, or should I be a bit more relaxed about it but obviously make sure I am getting enough protein? Also, I know that the body can only add a certain amount of lean muscle every month, regardless of how much you eat in excess of that, so would you recommend that I stay around 3,000 calories and day and not going on a "see food diet" in order to avoid putting on too much extra bodyfat?

Although I do admit I would love to go on a dirty bulk and just eat everything around me!

Will Heffernan

ConorCBS wrote: »

Cheers lads. Bulking it is so. I thought that would be the way to go alright. I am planning on following the Starting Strength program.

If you have it...if you like it...if you are motivated to do it the that is good enough for me.

Would you recommend that program? I've done some reading up on it and I haven't come across any reason not to do it.

You didn't look very hard then

In fairness though all you need is some sort of structured program with some sort of logical progression and then the actual will power and dedication to actually show up and do it.

So you sound like you are ready for action....fire away.

I have also been reading up on bulking and I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

My thoughts...bulking is good.

Do you think I should calorie count and stay strict on my macro-nutrients,

If you want to.

or should I be a bit more relaxed about it but obviously make sure I am getting enough protein?

Sounds less stressful and time consuming.

Also, I know that the body can only add a certain amount of lean muscle every month, regardless of how much you eat in excess of that, so would you recommend that I stay around 3,000 calories and day and not going on a "see food diet" in order to avoid putting on too much extra bodyfat?

That sounds like a decent plan...surprised more people don't follow it.

Although I do admit I would love to go on a dirty bulk and just eat everything around me!

That sounds like a bad plan...surprised most people follow it.

horsemaster

Conor, I would suggest you bulk up. I am 6ft and used to be a bodybuilder and my competition weight was about 240 lbs. My bodyfat was about 6%. Bodybuilding might not be what you are after so at least you have an idea. Try eating lots of protein to bulk up. Good luck in the gym.

mufcboy1999

you shouldnt even be thinking of cutting, yes chicks dig abs but not skinny packs. Your 6ft , putting on a stone or two would improve your performance aswell as your physique.

Also your young its quiet possible to make good gains while leaning up and reducing your body fat at the same time despite what the majority think.

Mellor

As one if the girls in my gym recently said "Abs on a skinny guy are like tits on a fat chick"

Will Heffernan

Mellor wrote: »

As one if the girls in my gym recently said "Abs on a skinny guy are like tits on a fat chick"

The only thing worse is tits on a skinny guy.

prudentkelly

adding muscle doens't help much in burning fat, each pound of muscle burns 6 calories a day. Even if one gained 10 pounds of pure muscle tissue (which would take 8 months at least) he would increased his metabolism by 60 calories. Certainly not helpful in burning fat. Also, fat burns 4 calories per pound, so not much less than muscle and still becoming fatter doesn't help burning fat

Will Heffernan

prudentkelly wrote: »

adding muscle doens't help much in burning fat,

Incorrect.

each pound of muscle burns 6 calories a day.

Incorrect.

Even if one gained 10 pounds of pure muscle tissue (which would take 8 months at least)

Incorrect.

he would increased his metabolism by 60 calories.

Incorrect.

Certainly not helpful in burning fat.

Incorrect.

Also, fat burns 4 calories per pound,

Incorrect.

so not much less than muscle and still becoming fatter doesn't help burning fat

Ahhhh what? I don't understand that sentence but am willing to assume that based on everything else you've said I am going to take a wild guess and assume that you have no clue what you are talking about and the bits and pieces that you think you understand from what you've read on the interwebz you've completely miss-interrupted so I will just assume that this too like everything else you've said is pretty much incorrect.

I hope you didn't find that too condescending.

FarmerH

I would personally advise being fairly strict on the bulking calories and macronutrients as it is a good habit to get into, and a great chance to learn what works best. It will prove you have the will power and commitment to the task at hand, and that it's not a handy excuse to eat more junk than you need to. Your diet is everything

As a 17 year old, you should be full of testosterone, and have a good appetite. Hopefully you will have a very successful bulk

Tigger

remember when Will went away and this forum sucked and then he came back

:P

ConorCBS

FarmerH wrote: »

I would personally advise being fairly strict on the bulking calories and macronutrients as it is a good habit to get into, and a great chance to learn what works best. It will prove you have the will power and commitment to the task at hand, and that it's not a handy excuse to eat more junk than you need to. Your diet is everything.

Yes, I have decided that I am going to clean bulk. I was originally planning on dirty bulking but I really just wanted an excuse to eat whatever I wanted - which is what I do know anyway. However, I have come to the conclusion that I might as well do it right to avoid putting on unnecessary fat which will result in me needing to cut at a later point - something I am terrible at.

I can't see staying away from junk food being a problem for me on a bulk, as I will be eating all the time so will not be hungry. However, I will still have problems with Coke because unfortunately I am addicted to it.

I will be aiming to consume 3,000 calories a day, with as much protein as possible. I am considering whey protein as I will struggle to get ~200g of protein every day. I am planning on drinking 2 litres of milk a day, would this be okay?

Will Heffernan

ConorCBS wrote: »

Yes, I have decided that I am going to clean bulk.

Good for you.

I was originally planning on dirty bulking but I really just wanted an excuse to eat whatever I wanted - which is what I do know anyway. However, I have come to the conclusion that I might as well do it right to avoid putting on unnecessary fat which will result in me needing to cut at a later point - something I am terrible at.

This still comes down to calorie intake and energy expenditure but so be it.

I can't see staying away from junk food being a problem for me on a bulk, as I will be eating all the time so will not be hungry. However, I will still have problems with Coke because unfortunately I am addicted to it.

You realise that just 2 cans of coke will take up just 10% of your calorie intake you've outlined yeah?

I will be aiming to consume 3,000 calories a day,

Why?

with as much protein as possible.

Why?

I am considering whey protein as I will struggle to get ~200g of protein every day.

Why?

I am planning on drinking 2 litres of milk a day, would this be okay?

So there you have another 1200 or so calories...so between your 2 cans of coke and the 2 litres of milk thats half your daily calorie intake...and you say you want to get 200gram of protein as well? So lets say you manage to find 200grams of magic protein with no fat and no carbohydrate....theres 800 calories there...I am as dumb as a box of hammers but between your milk, a couple of cans of coke and this magic protein you've about 700 calories left....I'd suggest a small cheeseburger meal from Mc Donald's....but unfortunately that'd take you over the calorie limit you've set.


Now that I've finished taking the piss I think you need to fire up the google machine and work out first how many grams of protein you need to maintain your weight....then add some to that....then you need to work out how many grams of protein you need to sustain your exercise and expenditure...then add some to that...then you need to over shoot from there as those numbers will give you a figure of just what you need...that ain't enough though is it? Why, I hear you ask....because you are BULKING and I assume by bulking you want to add some muscle mass...how much mass can realistically be added every month? Fire up the google machine. Now once you've found out its optimistically about 1kg you need to work out how much protein is required...then I'd divide that by 28 and add that your daily protein intake and that's how much protein you should consume every day.

Then you need to do the same thing for the rest of your macros...how many grams of healthy fat do you need? Remember though that every gram of fat is 9 calories though. You need those fats and they are as important to your bulking as the protein almost.

Then you need to work out how many calories you need to sustain your life. Then how many you need to sustain your energy expenditure...then you need to add some more...because you are trying to bulk remember...you are trying to create mass and that takes energy so 'maintenance' ain't going to cut it.

When you have done all that...you should be able to work out what your carb intake needs to be.

So...in short...telling us you plan to consume 3000 calories and 200 grams of protein and in that you'll be drinking some coke and 2 litres of milk....well that's not going to get you anywhere. Actually that's a lie...your post looks like most that I see here and that is why most of the people posting here looking just like all the people who aren't training and aren't dieting i.e. because it's bloody useless.

If you spend tonight actually working out what you ACTUALLY need and then combine it with a decent training program you should be golden.

ConorCBS

Tried to respond to most of your points. Bare in mind that I accept that I don't exactly know what I'm talking about and my replies are based on what I thought I knew/saw online somewhere, etc. so there is a good chance there will be incorrect information.

This still comes down to calorie intake and energy expenditure but so be it.

Yes, I understand that but I would rather get into the habit of not living on crisps, chocolate, and takeaways.

You realise that just 2 cans of coke will take up just 10% of your calorie intake you've outlined yeah?

Can I ask if you are saying this in a good way or bad? As in, are you saying that the 10% would be wasted on the coke, or that it's only 10% and it won't matter too much?

Why?

Well, that was just a ballpark figure I still haven't actually done out the exact numbers yet. According to an online calculator (I understand this may not be accurate) my Basal Metabolic Rate is 1,836 calories, multiplied by 1.55 for my lifestyle/training, giving me 2,847 calories burned a day. So if I were gaining a pound a week, I would add 500 calories, or 1000 calories for 2 pounds.

I think it would be best to aim for 1 pound a week gain, but then again, I'm not sure?

Why?

Well protein is essential for repair and growth (building muscle) from what I have gathered and it is important to consume enough protein to maximise muscle growth during a bulk?

Why?

Again, a ballpark figure not exact. I multiplied my bodyweight by 1.5, which is 234. This may not be correct but I have seen it recommended to consume 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound bodyweight. Then again, I have also seen that my macro-nutrients should be divided 40:40:20, which based on 3,500 calories would be 350g of protein (according to MyFitnessPal) or 400g or protein on 4,000 calories. If this is correct then I guess the figure I mentioned is on the low side, but I struggle to see myself consuming that much protein if it is indeed correct?

Now that I've finished taking the piss I think you need to fire up the google machine and work out first how many grams of protein you need to maintain your weight....then add some to that....then you need to work out how many grams of protein you need to sustain your exercise and expenditure...then add some to that...then you need to over shoot from there as those numbers will give you a figure of just what you need...that ain't enough though is it? Why, I hear you ask....because you are BULKING and I assume by bulking you want to add some muscle mass...how much mass can realistically be added every month? Fire up the google machine. Now once you've found out its optimistically about 1kg you need to work out how much protein is required...then I'd divide that by 28 and add that your daily protein intake and that's how much protein you should consume every day.

Then you need to do the same thing for the rest of your macros...how many grams of healthy fat do you need? Remember though that every gram of fat is 9 calories though. You need those fats and they are as important to your bulking as the protein almost.

When you have done all that...you should be able to work out what your carb intake needs to be.

Okay, thank you. I will try do that.

Then you need to work out how many calories you need to sustain your life. Then how many you need to sustain your energy expenditure...then you need to add some more...because you are trying to bulk remember...you are trying to create mass and that takes energy so 'maintenance' ain't going to cut it.

Basal Metabolic Rate is 1,836 calories, multiplied by 1.55 for my lifestyle/training, giving me 2,847 calories burned a day. You said the most mass that can be added in a month is 1kg. Bearing that in mind, how much weight gain should I be aiming for a week?

Will Heffernan wrote: »

So...in short...telling us you plan to consume 3000 calories and 200 grams of protein and in that you'll be drinking some coke and 2 litres of milk....well that's not going to get you anywhere. Actually that's a lie...your post looks like most that I see here and that is why most of the people posting here looking just like all the people who aren't training and aren't dieting i.e. because it's bloody useless.

If you spend tonight actually working out what you ACTUALLY need and then combine it with a decent training program you should be golden.

To be fair, that is the reason why I am posting here. I will happily admit that if I were to go along by myself without getting advice that it would be "bloody useless" but that is exactly why I have posted here to get the opinions and advice of people who know what they are talking about.

Hope I'm not causing too much hassle for you by knowing nothing.

I appreciate the help.

Gummy Panda

Will Heffernan wrote: »

The only thing worse is tits on a skinny guy.

This is a disturbing image

Will Heffernan

First things first...I just want to make this clear.

ConorCBS wrote: »

Tried to respond to most of your points. Bare in mind that I accept that I don't exactly know what I'm talking about and my replies are based on what I thought I knew/saw online somewhere, etc. so there is a good chance there will be incorrect information.

You don't have to know what you are talking about. I am sure you have much better things to worry about. You don't need to spend years studying and training just so you can coach yourself...when you get sick you go to the doctor and pay him some money and he's just supposed to give you the answer.

In this case....you don't need to know what you are talking about because what you are looking at doing is pretty straight forward if you have the necessary drive and motivation.

I am trying to help you not have a go at you. I don't post here for any other reason than I like to help people. I got accused of being arrogant, obnoxious and having a chip on my shoulder this week and it still puts me off a bit. It makes me not want to post and not want to help but I still do when I have the time. I say this because I am picking up some 'defensiveness' in your reply as well. You don't have to defend your right to post or ask a question. You don't need or have to listen to me and you don't have to even agree with me. If you said 'Thanks for nothing and blow it out your hoop' I'd not be upset or angry I'd move on...if you told me I was wrong I'd ask you to tell me why and I'd listen to your explanation...if I didn't agree I'd respond up and until I thought I was wasting my time because I realised you obviously had brain damage.

So in short...I am happy to help you or anyone else so long as you are interested in helping yourself, that I have the time and that I feel like it.

So basically don't be defensive or worried about what I think....ask your questions and make your statements.....what my 'payment' is in lieu of any monetary reward is that while giving you answers and advice is that I get to take the piss out of you and make fun of you if it amuses me

I think that is a pretty good deal.

To be fair, that is the reason why I am posting here. I will happily admit that if I were to go along by myself without getting advice that it would be "bloody useless" but that is exactly why I have posted here to get the opinions and advice of people who know what they are talking about.

Hope I'm not causing too much hassle for you by knowing nothing.

I appreciate the help.

This is what I mean...you can say and ask what you like. If more people made statements and asked questions here they'd be a hell of a lot better informed and probably in much better health and fitness. So don't worry what anyone thinks...you ask and or say what you like. Just don't be too thin skinned when you get replies

Will Heffernan

ConorCBS wrote: »

Tried to respond to most of your points. Bare in mind that I accept that I don't exactly know what I'm talking about and my replies are based on what I thought I knew/saw online somewhere, etc. so there is a good chance there will be incorrect information.

No problem...lets just make sure you were looking in the right place.

Yes, I understand that but I would rather get into the habit of not living on crisps, chocolate, and takeaways.

Don't have a problem with that.

Can I ask if you are saying this in a good way or bad? As in, are you saying that the 10% would be wasted on the coke, or that it's only 10% and it won't matter too much?

Well professional road cycling wouldn't be where it was today without coke and epo.

All I was saying is that it was arbitrary in the grand scheme of things...if you drank a 2L bottle of coke that would be close to 1000 cals of your 3000 cals a day and that didn't leave you much space for you know...eating. So leave the coke till the end we need to work out all the important stuff first.

Well, that was just a ballpark figure I still haven't actually done out the exact numbers yet.

That was what I was getting at. You see that here all the time. Well I've seen it a few times....in that people say I want to consume X number of calories and then a few posts later put up what they ate on a particular day and add it up in my head and come up with X+1500 calories and they are pissing and moaning about not losing as much fat as they'd hoped. I am helping you because I want to have one less person here who makes me sigh. You can't just pick a round number and go for it. If you are going to pick any number at all to target then it might as well be the right one.

According to an online calculator (I understand this may not be accurate) my Basal Metabolic Rate is 1,836 calories, multiplied by 1.55 for my lifestyle/training, giving me 2,847 calories burned a day. So if I were gaining a pound a week, I would add 500 calories, or 1000 calories for 2 pounds.

Now we're getting somewhere. So what do you think about the calorie numbers now? So how many calories do you need just to tread water metaphorically? To just stay at your current weight?

I think it would be best to aim for 1 pound a week gain, but then again, I'm not sure?

This doesn't matter too much....because take a guess what is going to happen if you are consuming too few calories?

What about if you calculate wrong and consume too many calories?

Well protein is essential for repair and growth (building muscle) from what I have gathered and it is important to consume enough protein to maximise muscle growth during a bulk?

Absolutely.

But you need to consume more than 'just enough' you need to work out the following equation:

just enough + enough for muscle mass growth + enough to have a buffer against muscle damage and incidental energy consumption + a little extra just to be safe = ConorCBS clean bulking daily protein consumption target.

Again, a ballpark figure not exact. I multiplied my bodyweight by 1.5, which is 234. This may not be correct but I have seen it recommended to consume 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound bodyweight. Then again, I have also seen that my macro-nutrients should be divided 40:40:20, which based on 3,500 calories would be 350g of protein (according to MyFitnessPal) or 400g or protein on 4,000 calories. If this is correct then I guess the figure I mentioned is on the low side, but I struggle to see myself consuming that much protein if it is indeed correct?

It is hard isn't it...that's why there are so many irish men with slopey shoulders, pipe cleaner like legs, no asses and little pot bellies...you have to decide whether it's all just too hard for you or not?

You don't have to train. You don't have to eat what you need to reach your goals. You can just be like a lot of posters here that spend more time pissing and moaning about how it is all to difficult OR be like the other posters here that train their asses off and eat what they need to eat because they want to be awesome or stay awesome...the choice is yours.

Okay, thank you. I will try do that.

I have no idea what that was in response to but I like the sound of it.

Basal Metabolic Rate is 1,836 calories, multiplied by 1.55 for my lifestyle/training, giving me 2,847 calories burned a day. You said the most mass that can be added in a month is 1kg. Bearing that in mind, how much weight gain should I be aiming for a week?

I was talking about a realistic gain of pure muscle mass. It is almost impossible to add just muscle and not a gram of fat....and to actually do that you would spend so much time messing about with your training and diet you would end up spending more time in an asylum than in a gym. You need to make this easy...work out how much protein you need...the equation above...then you need to make sure you are getting enough calories to sustain life + training + the extra calories to create growth. From that you need to make sure that after the calories from protein are taken care of that the rest is from good healthy varied sources. Here is a test...what would be better for you a) A large quarter pounder and cheese meal with a chocolate thick shake and fries or b) A chicken stir fry with green asian vegetables and brown rice? So do your sums and get on with it if you have the stones.

To be fair, that is the reason why I am posting here. I will happily admit that if I were to go along by myself without getting advice that it would be "bloody useless" but that is exactly why I have posted here to get the opinions and advice of people who know what they are talking about.

That last bit made me LOL...anyway...you have some advice now and you can listen to it or not...if you don't and you end up like a blob you can always post here and ask for cutting advice...people will just tell you to drink the juice of a lemon every morning or do IF....LOL.

Hope I'm not causing too much hassle for you by knowing nothing.

No problem. I am well used to that here

I appreciate the help.

Nice of you to say. You're welcome.

prudentkelly

Heffernan Will thank you for the very interesting informations
really handy
I read this and learned a lot. I know what I'm doing wrong and how to simplify.

Will Heffernan

prudentkelly wrote: »

Heffernan Will thank you for the very interesting informations
really handy
I read this and learned a lot. I know what I'm doing wrong and how to simplify.

No problem...thanks for the thanks...makes a nice change from being abused

Good luck with your training and if and when you have questions post them up and if I can help I will and if I can't I am sure there'll be someone here that will be happy to.