Professional Drivers Association Anyone?

DriversEd

Hi,

we ran this poll on another much smaller forum, dedicated to truck drivers, and want to try it out here if you don't mind?

we are asking if there's an appetite for a professional drivers association of union in ireland. to include drivers who earn their living on the road. it'll probably include anyone who is required to complete drivers CPC courses yearly and other classes of drivers who earn their living from it like couriers maybe. but thats further down the road.
the idea is to have a representative body to look after our interests and push the perception of drivers upward.
we were thinking of a group in line with the structure of the IFA, the way it has sections to look after different areas of agriculture, we could do similar to represent the different drivers like truck, bus, couriers etc.

so please, vote in the poll and please comment with any ideas and opinions that could help with the formation of this group.

regards,

ed

Big Nasty

Who is 'we' and where's the poll?

DriversEd

drivers who have been talking about this for a while on another forum, irishrigs.com.
nothing sinister, just trying to find out if there's an appetite as i said.

MugMugs

So a union..... Why would anyone want a driving union?

DriversEd

you don't drive for a living, do you??:-)

MugMugs

DriversEd wrote: »

you don't drive for a living, do you??:-)

Quite a bit and sometimes even at my own expense. Speculate to accumulate...

My views on representative bodies are that they are generally loud mouths who are there to be seen with nice letter heads and polished suits and a fancy name when it suits....

I'm listed to three "unions" through different activities and frankly, if I didn't have to be apart of them I wouldn't.... I find them as useful as tits on a bull!

What are you going to do? Lobby for cheaper fuel? An extension of penalty points for pros and longer hours for truck drivers? Ocassionaly clog up a main road in Dublin with tractors, buses and Ford mondeos to let the country know now and again that you exist?

HellFireClub

A better idea would be to finally deal with the disaster that is the SIMI and form a new representative body for the motor industry that is not made up of, and run exclusively for the benefit of, main dealers.

Our man in Havana

I am already a member of a drivers union as are most people. I even have my pink membership card.

Big Nasty

HellFireClub wrote: »

A better idea would be to finally deal with the disaster that is the SIMI and form a new representative body for the motor industry that is not made up of, and run exclusively for the benefit of, main dealers.

That was tried a couple of years back and went nowhere.

DriversEd

People, any comments on the actual thread topic, constructive ones?
Not the simi, or the unions in general, the topic?

MugMugs

DriversEd wrote: »

People, any comments on the actual thread topic, constructive ones?
Not the simi, or the unions in general, the topic?

DriversEd wrote: »

the idea is to have a representative body to look after our interests and push the perception of drivers upward.
we were thinking of a group in line with the structure of the IFA, the way it has sections to look after different areas of agriculture, we could do similar to represent the different drivers like truck, bus, couriers etc.

MugMugs wrote: »

My views on representative bodies are that they are generally loud mouths who are there to be seen with nice letter heads and polished suits and a fancy name when it suits....

................

What are you going to do? Lobby for cheaper fuel? An extension of penalty points for pros and longer hours for truck drivers? Ocassionaly clog up a main road in Dublin with tractors, buses and Ford mondeos to let the country know now and again that you exist?

bigroad

Yes i would be all for some kind of professional drivers assocation .The main reason being ,i have tried the union road and its of no use.Most jobs in ireland or trades have their own basic wage but drivers do not.I know the general public wont have much interest in this thread because it doesnt directly affect them.With the ression in full swing its going to be difficult for drivers to climb up the wages hill ,to where they can feed their familys and pay their mortgage/rent. At the moment the difference between social welfare benefits and a low paid drivers job are the same.{i am talking about a family situation}.Why bother ,is a common frase that seems to be popular nowadays. The low paid worker must pay all new taxes ,while the long term unemployed sit back and laugh just like they always did .Pint and a gamble anyone............

MugMugs

bigroad wrote: »

The low paid worker must pay all new taxes ,while the long term unemployed sit back and laugh just like they always did .Pint and a gamble anyone............

And how is that in any way specific to a professional driver?

OldmanMondeo

Another "poor me" union....

Actually can you add an option, "Stick your Union"?

bigroad

Its specific to a professional driver because we need an assocation that can keep us away from joining the very attractive option of being better off claiming social welfare.

OldmanMondeo

bigroad wrote: »

Its specific to a professional driver because we need an assocation that can keep us away from joining the very attractive option of being better off claiming social welfare.

Not just the professional drivers in that boat....

MugMugs

bigroad wrote: »

Its specific to a professional driver because we need an assocation that can keep us away from joining the very attractive option of being better off claiming social welfare.

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Not just the professional drivers in that boat....

Exactly...

What makes a truck driver any worse off than lets say, somebody who stacks shelves in Tesco? Or somebody who empties bins at 5am on a Monday morning? or somebody who has to clean crap off an office toilet bowl at the end of a day?

What makes drivers in any way unique to these jobs? Why should US drivers be treated any differently?

Our man in Havana

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Another "poor me" union....

Actually can you add an option, "Stick your Union"?

Done!

Poll Reset!

bigroad

MugMugs wrote: »

Exactly...

What makes a truck driver any worse off than lets say, somebody who stacks shelves in Tesco? Or somebody who empties bins at 5am on a Monday morning? or somebody who has to clean crap off an office toilet bowl at the end of a day?

What makes drivers in any way unique to these jobs? Why should US drivers be treated any differently?

The person stacking shelves in tesco is on a better hourly rate than most truck/bus drivers.They dont sit and pay for a CPC every year They dont pay up to five grand to optain their licence and so on and so on.We are not unique in any way we are looking for some basic conditions and thats it.Just also remember if we did come together and stop driving for one day the country would stop ,just think about it .Time for some respect i think.

Dr.Rieux

bigroad wrote: »

The person stacking shelves in tesco is on a better hourly rate than most truck/bus drivers.They dont sit and pay for a CPC every year They dont pay up to five grand to optain their licence and so on and so on.We are not unique in any way we are looking for some basic conditions and thats it.Just also remember if we did come together and stop driving for one day the country would stop ,just think about it .Time for some respect i think.

Just curious, what would an average hourly rate be for a truck/bus driver?

MugMugs

bigroad wrote: »

The person stacking shelves in tesco is on a better hourly rate than most truck/bus drivers.They dont sit and pay for a CPC every year They dont pay up to five grand to optain their licence and so on and so on.We are not unique in any way we are looking for some basic conditions and thats it.Just also remember if we did come together and stop driving for one day the country would stop ,just think about it .Time for some respect i think.

I'm not disrespecting truck drivers.....

Grow some and have your company pay for you CPC..... It's to their benefit.

As for the paying five grand to get a licence..... Ummm.... You made the choice to get that licence..... Just like I made the choice to get my licence..... Why would I expect my employer to pay for that?

If you were to be asked to get a new licence for a different class by your employer I may understand you argument here to a degree but you CHOSE to drive trucks and CHOSE to get that licence.... Whats the problem?

And explain to me exactly how somebody on the minimum wage is on more than you? Is it because they don't accept the fact that their boss says "you have to work 7 hours extra off the clock" and they would promptly say "get stuffed" whereas drivers sometimes don't give that response?

bigroad

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

Just curious, what would an average hourly rate be for a truck/bus driver?

Well to answer your question its all heading rapid for 8.65 per hour if your lucky.Their are some companys paying 330 to 350 per week but the week is not thirty nine hours ,it is often a good bit more.On the other side their are drivers on old contracts which pay 20 plus per hour but their conditions and pay are few and far between.Even if a drivers basic started at say 12 euro it would give a level ground to start from .Most decent companies pay this rate but the cowboys are dragging them down.

bigroad

MugMugs wrote: »

I'm not disrespecting truck drivers.....

Grow some and have your company pay for you CPC..... It's to their benefit.

As for the paying five grand to get a licence..... Ummm.... You made the choice to get that licence..... Just like I made the choice to get my licence..... Why would I expect my employer to pay for that?

If you were to be asked to get a new licence for a different class by your employer I may understand you argument here to a degree but you CHOSE to drive trucks and CHOSE to get that licence.... Whats the problem?

And explain to me exactly how somebody on the minimum wage is on more than you? Is it because they don't accept the fact that their boss says "you have to work 7 hours extra off the clock" and they would promptly say "get stuffed" whereas drivers sometimes don't give that response?

Firstly the CPC was brought in to bring drivers up to a professional standard .If you did a coarse to further your self would you want 8.65.Second nobody is asking for an employer to pay for cpc or a licence.I myself did not pay the said sum for my licence as i am older.But to encourage the younger people its not going to happen ,hence another job that is cut off because of no decent wage.I didnt say that somebody on the minimum wage is on more than me .Tesco workers are paid depending on different hours ect its not min wage.

MugMugs

bigroad wrote: »

Firstly the CPC was brought in to bring drivers up to a professional standard .If you did a coarse to further your self would you want 8.65.Second nobody is asking for an employer to pay for cpc or a licence.I myself did not pay the said sum for my licence as i am older.But to encourage the younger people its not going to happen ,hence another job that is cut off because of no decent wage.I didn't say that somebody on the minimum wage is on more than me .Tesco workers are paid depending on different hours ect its not min wage.

Firstly, I was told that I had to pass a series of exams paid for by my employer in a set period of time in order to keep my job. No ifs buts or maybes.... I did it... I didn't get a raise.

Secondly, forget the Tesco element.... Forget all three and replace them with a "minimum wage worker"

So you want younger people to be encouraged into the workforce and feel a union could achieve this? Why?

AltAccount

bigroad wrote: »

Its specific to a professional driver because we need an assocation that can keep us away from joining the very attractive option of being better off claiming social welfare.

How would such an assocation manage that? Are you talking about demanding a minimum pay rate, tax breaks on costs/fuel, what?

bigroad wrote: »

The person stacking shelves in tesco is on a better hourly rate than most truck/bus drivers.They dont sit and pay for a CPC every year They dont pay up to five grand to optain their licence and so on and so on.We are not unique in any way we are looking for some basic conditions and thats it.Just also remember if we did come together and stop driving for one day the country would stop ,just think about it .Time for some respect i think.

What basic conditions would you intend to lobby for?

Dr.Rieux

bigroad wrote: »

Firstly the CPC was brought in to bring drivers up to a professional standard .If you did a coarse to further your self would you want 8.65.Second nobody is asking for an employer to pay for cpc or a licence.I myself did not pay the said sum for my licence as i am older.But to encourage the younger people its not going to happen ,hence another job that is cut off because of no decent wage.I didnt say that somebody on the minimum wage is on more than me .Tesco workers are paid depending on different hours ect its not min wage.

If more younger people did actually become truck drivers the wages would start to drop even further would they not? Limited number of jobs, and more people to do them, that would lead to a race to the bottom wage wise.

I did a course to further myself before, did a 4 year Engineering degree and ended up earning a grand total of €0.00 from it. A lad from my course worked for €8.65 (€7.65 for a bit until it went back up) an hour in a supermarket after finishing engineering. By the same argument should engineering graduates get a basic starting wage of €12 an hour?

This isn't to say that I don't agree with a union as I haven't strong feelings either way to be honest.

guil

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

Just curious, what would an average hourly rate be for a truck/bus driver?

€11 for the first 40 and time and a half after that for driving a bin lorry

bigroad

MugMugs wrote: »

Firstly, I was told that I had to pass a series of exams paid for by my employer in a set period of time in order to keep my job. No ifs buts or maybes.... I did it... I didn't get a raise.

Secondly, forget the Tesco element.... Forget all three and replace them with a "minimum wage worker"

So you want younger people to be encouraged into the workforce and feel a union could achieve this? Why?

You have your own situation and thats grand but we are talking about a PDA not a union as you keep talking about .This is soley for drivers and run by drivers not some fat cat on a 150k.Do you think we should be paid the min wage .well thats your business.Do you think stacking shelves has the same responceabilty as 46 ton rolling down a narrow road.If you are coming head on with that truck ,would you not prefer that the driver was professional and awake and not getting 8.65 an hour .I know i would.

AltAccount

bigroad wrote: »

Well to answer your question its all heading rapid for 8.65 per hour if your lucky.Their are some companys paying 330 to 350 per week but the week is not thirty nine hours ,it is often a good bit more.On the other side their are drivers on old contracts which pay 20 plus per hour but their conditions and pay are few and far between.Even if a drivers basic started at say 12 euro it would give a level ground to start from .Most decent companies pay this rate but the cowboys are dragging them down.

The cowboys won't join your association , so how will the exist of the association stop you being outpriced by the cowboys?

bigroad

AltAccount wrote: »

How would such an assocation manage that? Are you talking about demanding a minimum pay rate, tax breaks on costs/fuel, what? Yes to the first if needs be and tax breaks on fuel should be happining anyway .A lot of hauliers go abroad for fuel and the government looses out.




What basic conditions would you intend to lobby for?

Basic drivers wage for different classes .More enforcement of rules and regs by RSA including drivers without irish driving licence .A strict enforcement on haulage companies who break the law resulting with a ban on their haulage licence.An intership for younger drivers starting off.

bigroad

AltAccount wrote: »

The cowboys won't join your association , so how will the exist of the association stop you being outpriced by the cowboys?

Cowboys cant pay a driver 12 euro plus because they have underpriced to get their work who they robbed of a decent haulier.More regulation will also sqeeze them out.

MugMugs

bigroad wrote: »

Basic drivers wage for different classes .More enforcement of rules and regs by RSA including drivers without irish driving licence .A strict enforcement on haulage companies who break the law resulting with a ban on their haulage licence.

So enforce the rules like should already happen?

bigroad wrote: »

This is soley for drivers and run by drivers not some fat cat on a 150k.

That's how SIPTU started.... look how that went...

bigroad wrote: »

Do you think we should be paid the min wage .well thats your business.Do you think stacking shelves has the same responceabilty as 46 ton rolling down a narrow road.If you are coming head on with that truck ,would you not prefer that the driver was professional and awake and not getting 8.65 an hour .I know i would.

I think you should be on a standard industrial wage..... I'd also expect EVERY person carrying out their job to be wholly compliant with the Risk Assessments and Method Statements along with all other safety training given to them at all times..... Like I am when I drive for work..... Like every other person who works for "the man" around here.

Your representative body is no different to a union and would be in no way unique to all the other useless unions out there right now.

Dr.Rieux

bigroad wrote: »

Cowboys cant pay a driver 12 euro plus because they have underpriced to get their work who they robbed of a decent haulier.More regulation will also sqeeze them out.

To be honest, if I ran a business and needed a haulier to move something from A to B, and one was significantly cheaper, of course I'm going to go for them all else being equal.

Basic drivers wage for different classes .More enforcement of rules and regs by RSA including drivers without irish driving licence .A strict enforcement on haulage companies who break the law resulting with a ban on their haulage licence.An intership for younger drivers starting off.

So the rules and regs are currently in place and aren't being enforced? And what would the internship for younger drivers achieve exactly?

bigroad

MugMugs wrote: »

So enforce the rules like should already happen?


That's how SIPTU started.... look how that went...

I think you should be on a standard industrial wage..... I'd also expect EVERY person carrying out their job to be wholly compliant with the Risk Assessments and Method Statements along with all other safety training given to them at all times..... Like I am when I drive for work..... Like every other person who works for "the man" around here.

Your representative body is no different to a union and would be in no way unique to all the other useless unions out there right now.

The rules and regs are supposed to be enforced by the gardai and the rsa and from what i can or cannot see it is not happening.You see the government arnt pushed about all this because if haulage is down transports are down for goods ect wages yeehaa they say ireland is cheaper to do business.What do they care anyway.Siptu is not soley for one group.maybe it could end the same maybe not who knows.To try and fail is better than not to try .

MugMugs

bigroad wrote: »

The rules and regs are supposed to be enforced by the gardai and the rsa and from what i can or cannot see it is not happening.You see the government arnt pushed about all this because if haulage is down transports are down for goods ect wages yeehaa they say ireland is cheaper to do business.What do they care anyway.Siptu is not soley for one group.maybe it could end the same maybe not who knows.To try and fail is better than not to try .

No it's not but what you're suggesting is for a union to rep just Drivers..... with no real reason other than you want a Driver only union.

You're even suggesting that this union in some way polices the people meant to police the legislation in place over drivers...

I must admit, your arguments are highly flawed, very weak and lack any real kind of reasoning.

AltAccount

bigroad wrote: »

Basic drivers wage for different classes .More enforcement of rules and regs by RSA including drivers without irish driving licence .A strict enforcement on haulage companies who break the law resulting with a ban on their haulage licence.An intership for younger drivers starting off.

Seems to be very haulage focused, how would the representation extend to bus/taxi/courier?

bigroad

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

To be honest, if I ran a business and needed a haulier to move something from A to B, and one was significantly cheaper, of course I'm going to go for them all else being equal.



So the rules and regs are currently in place and aren't being enforced? And what would the internship for younger drivers achieve exactly?

I suppose it would be a bit like an appreticeship.A young person would be trained by a more experienced driver or many and learn skills needed for the job instead of handing over 5k with no real experience and trying to find a jobAnd that stage the company might be happy to offer that person a proper position as a decent paid driver with the knowledge that he/she has been trained to a high level.Also if you ran a business and choose the cheapest haulier your business would not benefit for many reasons.Sucessful companies dont use cowboys thats why they are sucessful.

Dr.Rieux

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Can us instructors that work at race schools join this union :pac:

Of course, although in the interests of fairness you're going to have to install tachographs and speed limiters on the race cars :pac:

bigroad

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Can us instructors that work at race schools join this union :pac:

Truck racing .Very welcome.

Dr.Rieux

bigroad wrote: »

I suppose it would be a bit like an appreticeship.A young person would be trained by a more experienced driver or many and learn skills needed for the job instead of handing over 5k with no real experience and trying to find a jobAnd that stage the company might be happy to offer that person a proper position as a decent paid driver with the knowledge that he/she has been trained to a high level.Also if you ran a business and choose the cheapest haulier your business would not benefit for many reasons.Sucessful companies dont use cowboys thats why they are sucessful.

A cheaper haulier doesn't necessarily mean they're cowboys. A company who refused to use the cheaper option straight out wouldn't be in the best financial position either.

bigroad

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

A cheaper haulier doesn't necessarily mean they're cowboys. A company who refused to use the cheaper option straight out wouldn't be in the best financial position either.

It depends on that particular company and what they can afford.If they have to use the cheapest so be it ,thats their gamble.

AltAccount

bigroad wrote: »

Also if you ran a business and choose the cheapest haulier your business would not benefit for many reasons.

Can you explain this bit a little more please?

Del2005

bigroad wrote: »

Basic drivers wage for different classes .More enforcement of rules and regs by RSA including drivers without irish driving licence .A strict enforcement on haulage companies who break the law resulting with a ban on their haulage licence.An intership for younger drivers starting off.

They can't do anything about EU licences, so that's shoot down straight away.

The low hourly rate is due to the current oversupply of drivers and rising costs of everything bar drivers. Why would a company hire someone for €11 when there are 10 lads willing to do it for minimum wage, when their customers are constantly pushing for lower and lower prices?

Truck driving while essential for the country isn't seen that way so nobody cares about it. The race to the bottom will lead to experienced drivers going on the dole and only the cowboys will be left. Or it may go like motorbike couriering. There was great money in it for years. Now the only way to do it is by claiming and riding, which means the guys riding can't afford to go out, as the basics have been cut too low.

How do you plan on restricting drivers from taking less than your minimum wage? You can't force them to join a union. It's a great idea in theory but it won't make the slightest bit of difference, just look at how affective the Taxi unions are.

bigroad

AltAccount wrote: »

Can you explain this bit a little more please?

if they are the cheapest in the business there is a reason for this.The way the industry is at the moment to run vehicles on a budget would mean cutting corners .What corners .Well proper insurance ,vehicles that are safe and quailified drivers .Possible theft.ect.There is a good chance the customer will loose out at some stage.It would be only a matter of time.

Big Nasty

bigroad wrote: »

if they are the cheapest in the business there is a reason for this.The way the industry is at the moment to run vehicles on a budget would mean cutting corners .What corners .Well proper insurance ,vehicles that are safe and quailified drivers .Possible theft.ect.There is a good chance the customer will loose out at some stage.It would be only a matter of time.

Is that why you can't travel the length of the M50 without seeing a dozen Stobart trucks?

bigroad

Del2005 wrote: »

They can't do anything about EU licences, so that's shoot down straight away.

The low hourly rate is due to the current oversupply of drivers and rising costs of everything bar drivers. Why would a company hire someone for €11 when there are 10 lads willing to do it for minimum wage, when their customers are constantly pushing for lower and lower prices?

Truck driving while essential for the country isn't seen that way so nobody cares about it. The race to the bottom will lead to experienced drivers going on the dole and only the cowboys will be left. Or it may go like motorbike couriering. There was great money in it for years. Now the only way to do it is by claiming and riding, which means the guys riding can't afford to go out, as the basics have been cut too low.

How do you plan on restricting drivers from taking less than your minimum wage? You can't force them to join a union. It's a great idea in theory but it won't make the slightest bit of difference, just look at how affective the Taxi unions are.

I have no problem with anyone from a eu state in a driving job here ,once they have optained their licence legally.Not one they bought on the internet .

bigroad

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Is that why you can't travel the length of the M50 without seeing a dozen Stobart trucks?

Not really the only reason that stobart is here in ireland is because of Tesco.Without tesco they would be heading back accross the water.Tesco ownes a big percentage of stobart.

Big Nasty

bigroad wrote: »

Not really the only reason that stobart is here in ireland is because of Tesco.Without tesco they would be heading back accross the water.Tesco ownes a big percentage of stobart.

Tesco must be quare busy so! :cool:

dgt

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Tesco must be quare busy so! :cool:

They really do a roaring business, as I have found out many times....

johnr1

I drive tour buses seasonally and I see no useful purpose to this union.

bigroad

johnr1 wrote: »

I drive tour buses seasonally and I see no useful purpose to this union.

Its mainly for truck drivers so you wont have to worry to much.