Non permanent staff

jane1234

Just wondering what the situation is regarding staff meeting croke p hours etc. for us part timers. Ive been working in various schools on temp contracts and its a bit much if youre not even on full hours to be expected to stay back all the time for these extras. What does anyone else think? Grin and bear it??

unknowngirl!!

I'm on 12 hours this year but I go to all the meetings. I don't think it would give off a good impression to only go a proportion of the meetings. Plus I'm interested in the goings on of the school and like to give some input

solerina

There was a thread on this very subject back in September and the general consensus was go...you need to make a good impression and look like a team player if you want to keep/increase any hours you have !!

Fuinseog

unknowngirl!! wrote: »

I'm on 12 hours this year but I go to all the meetings. I don't think it would give off a good impression to only go a proportion of the meetings. Plus I'm interested in the goings on of the school and like to give some input

a wise decision.

evolving_doors

solerina wrote: »

There was a thread on this very subject back in September and the general consensus was go...you need to make a good impression and look like a team player if you want to keep/increase any hours you have !!

Aye that seems to be the general consensus, although the unions state that it is on a pro rata basis... Such a shame that the more recent part timers who 'have to' attend don't reap any of the benefits of croke park.

jimbo28

Whats the story with a Non Casual part-time contract and hours.No job to be had in september in the school as it is only a maternity cover.Are you contractually required to do the hours?

Jojoteach

If there are hours there the following year and you are a good teacher you will be asked back .... Not because you showed your face at meetings you didn't have to!

You do the % of the 33 based on what the % of 22 hours you do. No more no less.

Why should the casualisation of the profession by the gov mean that people are working for nothing !

RealJohn

I can certainly understand why you'd feel put out by this but at the same time, I think it reflects badly on you if you try to stick rigorously to doing them on a pro-rata basis. One of my colleagues is permanent but chose to do job sharing so she's on half hours. She's a senior member of staff and she usually leaves halfway through our regular meetings. I can certainly understand why she would and there's nothing wrong with doing it technically but I think if sets a very bad example to newer teachers on staff, as though what we're doing is just going through the motions and not very relevant to her (and since a lot of our Croke Park hours are in the form of staff meetings, I would say they're relevant to everyone).

joebloggs32

Real John you have given me a good laugh. Relevant to all of us????? They are a load of crap. Most are meetings for the sake of meetings.

Remember first of all we are not paid to them, and then you expect that people who don't have to attend should, so they could set a good example to other people who don't have to do them either.

I am looking forward to the end of them.

seavill

Lets be honest probably 50% of the work we all do is voluntary. There are so many things we do day in day out that "technically" we don't have to do but our jobs would be impossible if we didn't do them.
Going into this profession only willing to do your hours and nothing else is probably unsustainable in the long term.

rainbowtrout

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Real John you have given me a good laugh. Relevant to all of us????? They are a load of crap. Most are meetings for the sake of meetings.

Remember first of all we are not paid to them, and then you expect that people who don't have to attend should, so they could set a good example to other people who don't have to do them either.

I am looking forward to the end of them.

Well for part of the last Croke Park session we had a few weeks back we had a discussion about timetabling for next year, the possibility of dropping subjects etc. Some teachers chose not to attend as they had fulfilled their hours as they were pro rata. They heard second hand from other teachers what went on, and didn't miss anything that was said but at the same time they did not have the opportunity to voice their opportunity or make a contribution. As it happened one particular subject had no representation at the meeting as all the staff members of that subject are not on full hours and they chose not to attend that meeting.

No comment is passed on teachers not on full hours not attending due to the pro rata thing but they can miss things that go on. What is done with Croke Park hours does vary from school to school, for the most part ours have been put to relevant use.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well for part of the last Croke Park session we had a few weeks back we had a discussion about timetabling for next year, the possibility of dropping subjects etc. Some teachers chose not to attend as they had fulfilled their hours as they were pro rata. They heard second hand from other teachers what went on, and didn't miss anything that was said but at the same time they did not have the opportunity to voice their opportunity or make a contribution. As it happened one particular subject had no representation at the meeting as all the staff members of that subject are not on full hours and they chose not to attend that meeting.

No comment is passed on teachers not on full hours not attending due to the pro rata thing but they can miss things that go on. What is done with Croke Park hours does vary from school to school, for the most part ours have been put to relevant use.

Id agree this pro rata thing has created an unwanted mess..principal in our school ' seems' fine with it as they acknowledge the tough position people not on full time hours are on.In saying that though I dont want to miss anything without an opportunity to have my say...

Its akin to the posts on hdips and subs asking about attending meetings...depends on each particular case really..

Pain in the ass really...I've noticed alot of these talks brought in (not necessarily in house meetings) have become a case of buzzword bingo...If I see that goddam wengers cycle on the powerpoint again ill cry..

also there seems to be a bit of pressure being applied for each department to start upping the paperwork with all these ' new' initiatives (afl, literacy and numeracy, etc) all well and good but I can see it being used as a form of assessment by dept heads and management to decide on increments...if this is the case the teaching profession could end up being a case of measurement and ticking boxes...

Croke park will never die really the BS. will become embedded in some different form.

flatbackfour

seavill wrote: »

Lets be honest probably 50% of the work we all do is voluntary. There are so many things we do day in day out that "technically" we don't have to do but our jobs would be impossible if we didn't do them.
Going into this profession only willing to do your hours and nothing else is probably unsustainable in the long term.

I dont mind doing extra work if I am on a full time permanent contract. I expect to do above and beyond, I might even enjoy it, knowing I am working hard doing a little extra and getting paid as a professional.

But to expect teachers on part time hours to do extra work beyond what they get paid for is exploitation, plain and simple.

But then again these teachers are in a weak position. They are easily exploited.

If I get paid for a 15 hour contract I should be asked by management to attend a 15/22 amount of CP hours time. The Union should absolutely insist on it. Full time permanent staff should insure it happens though their local reps.

With the ease in which teachers accept attending all these extra hours (as seen in the above comments) without proper remuneration, its no wonder our terms and conditions are being eroded as they are.

flatbackfour

RealJohn wrote: »

I can certainly understand why you'd feel put out by this but at the same time, I think it reflects badly on you if you try to stick rigorously to doing them on a pro-rata basis. One of my colleagues is permanent but chose to do job sharing so she's on half hours. She's a senior member of staff and she usually leaves halfway through our regular meetings. I can certainly understand why she would and there's nothing wrong with doing it technically but I think if sets a very bad example to newer teachers on staff, as though what we're doing is just going through the motions and not very relevant to her (and since a lot of our Croke Park hours are in the form of staff meetings, I would say they're relevant to everyone).

You think she is setting a bad example???
By not allowing herself to be exploited?
By doing exactly what she is paid to do?
By fulfilling her contract?

She is showing great example to all younger teachers.

Well done miss. FFs to her.

flatbackfour

solerina wrote: »

There was a thread on this very subject back in September and the general consensus was go...you need to make a good impression and look like a team player if you want to keep/increase any hours you have !!

Look like a team player?? Attending hours your not getting paid for?? That's not being a team player. That's allowing yourself to be exploited and then making it harder for others to stand up against the exploitation.

When did we just roll over??

flatbackfour

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No comment is passed on teachers not on full hours not attending due to the pro rata thing but they can miss things that go on. What is done with Croke Park hours does vary from school to school, for the most part ours have been put to relevant use.

I see that as a management problem

If they miss things should management not set up proper information systems to make sure they are brought up to speed.

If you want teachers on part time hours to attend pay them to attend. Simple. Of If i need to know the information for the benefit of the school set up systems to allow this to happen.

seavill

flatbackfour wrote: »

I dont mind doing extra work if I am on a full time permanent contract. I expect to do above and beyond, I might even enjoy it, knowing I am working hard doing a little extra and getting paid as a professional.

But to expect teachers on part time hours to do extra work beyond what they get paid for is exploitation, plain and simple.

But then again these teachers are in a weak position. They are easily exploited.

If I get paid for a 15 hour contract I should be asked by management to attend a 15/22 amount of CP hours time. The Union should absolutely insist on it. Full time permanent staff should insure it happens though their local reps.

With the ease in which teachers accept attending all these extra hours (as seen in the above comments) without proper remuneration, its no wonder our terms and conditions are being eroded as they are.

I am not disagreeing about the CP hours I am saying our job in general does involve extra outside of what we are paid for in all aspects.

This has nothing to do with CP or anything else. this has always been the way that is the job you sign up for. Like nurses, gardai etc. its not a plain and simple job like some other jobs.

No one here has said you have to go to all the hours even when only really have to do 15 or whatever number you want to put on it. I know for a fact if I was in that position i would go to every hour, not out of sucking up to the principal, not looking for hours next year, just because it would be something that i feel i would be missing out on things should I not attend.

If the person chooses not to attend fair play to them that is their choice, no one has said any different, I know no member of staff permanent or not would even question it in my school should they choose to do that.

My point was simply aside from CP hours our job is more than 22 class hours and correcting a few copies, probably 30% of what we actually do is written in our contract.

seavill

flatbackfour wrote: »

I see that as a management problem

If they miss things should management not set up proper information systems to make sure they are brought up to speed.

If you want teachers on part time hours to attend pay them to attend. Simple. Of If i need to know the information for the benefit of the school set up systems to allow this to happen.

Minutes of every meeting have to be made available to every member of staff as with any meeting in any walk of life. This is your proper system already in place.

The previous posters point was that decisions are made at meetings sometimes, decisions cannot be put off because X is out sick or Y does not have to do this hour because of job share or pro rata contract or whatever reason.

You are nit picking and losing the head at posters here and are completely missing what they are saying, just taking what you want from them. take a step back and read what people are actually saying

flatbackfour

seavill wrote: »

I
My point was simply aside from CP hours our job is more than 22 class hours and correcting a few copies, probably 30% of what we actually do is written in our contract.

Yes I've no problem with that. If you are on a full time contract. Your valued fully as a professional. Your not treated as a serf.

Set up systems for those teachers who are not full time, to be informed about what goes on at these meetings simple as.

If you allow yourself to be exploited its the slippery slope to a complete de-professionalization and casualisation of the profession, oh wait................

seavill

flatbackfour wrote: »

Yes I've no problem with that. If you are on a full time contract. Your valued fully as a professional. Your not treated as a serf.

Set up systems for those teachers who are not full time, to be informed about what goes on at these meetings simple as.

If you allow yourself to be exploited its the slippery slope to a complete professionalization and casualisation of the profession, oh wait................

If you are on one hour your job will be more than one hour if 22 more than 22. It has got nothing to do with permanent or not.

It has got nothing to do with being exploited it has got nothing to do with pay cuts recently. That has been the job since the dawn of time.

It's not the fault of the children or principal the department won't grant 22 hours to every teacher that system would not work. I'm not saying some principals don't take advantage but be realistic in what you are saying.

I started on an 11 hour contract 7 years ago. I wasn't being exploited it was that there was only 11 hours available in my subject area. If they don't employ me kids miss out on subjects and my subjects disappear totally. They can't make 22 hour woodwork just cause I want 22 hours.

That's not exploitation get realistic

flatbackfour

seavill wrote: »

Minutes of every meeting have to be made available to every member of staff as with any meeting in any walk of life. This is your proper system already in place.

Is that happening on the ground in a transparent way?

The previous posters point was that decisions are made at meetings sometimes, decisions cannot be put off because X is out sick or Y does not have to do this hour because of job share or pro rata contract or whatever reason.

Well if some is out sick or someone jobshares or is on a pro-rata contract in a department and they cant attend then I do see that as a good reason not to make important decisions, without those people giving the go ahead, if its a subject department issue.

So when the CP hours were devised why did they not say everyone has to attend all of the hours regardless of the hours in your contract?

Because its exploitation? Regardless of the logistical issues it causes that outs part times at a disadvantage. Part timers did not cause these logistical nightmare. Now they suffer on the double.

You are nit picking and losing the head at posters here and are completely missing what they are saying, just taking what you want from them. take a step back and read what people are actually saying

Yea I am nit picking, sure.

seavill

Yes minutes of all meetings have been put out in every school I have ever worked in probably 11 or 12 schools.

See my post above. No one is blaming part tone staff for anything

There has always been part time staff and the world has survived.

Again be realistic no company in the world stops making decisions at a meeting cause someone is out sick. You are getting ridiculous at this stage

flatbackfour

seavill wrote: »

If you are on one hour your job will be more than one hour if 22 more than 22. It has got nothing to do with permanent or not.

Agreed completely. On a pro rata basis. Simple as. Nothing more nothing less.

It has got nothing to do with being exploited it has got nothing to do with pay cuts recently. That has been the job since the dawn of time.

It has a lot to do with exploitation. If you are not getting paid to do professional work that you have educated yourself for at massive expense. Your sitting at meetings after school sitting beside people who are getting paid for it while your on a crappy contract.

You dont think thats exploitation. And we ask our kids to be critical thinkers?????/

It's not the fault of the children or principal the department won't grant 22 hours to every teacher that system would not work. I'm not saying some principals don't take advantage but be realistic in what you are saying.

It does not matter whos fault it is, its still exploitation.

I started on an 11 hour contract 7 years ago. I wasn't being exploited it was that there was only 11 hours available in my subject area. If they don't employ me kids miss out on subjects and my subjects disappear totally. They can't make 22 hour woodwork just cause I want 22 hours.

Not my point. If you are working 11 hours your getting paid for 11 hours (taking into account that you are contributing to the life of the schools as much as a 22 hour contracted person is) and now above all this your expected to attend all of the CP hours even though the union and department specifically say do not.


That's not exploitation?

flatbackfour

seavill wrote: »

Again be realistic no company in the world stops making decisions at a meeting cause someone is out sick. You are getting ridiculous at this stage

Now you are creating straw men.

Get back to the point of part timers having to do all the CP hours while on part time contracts.

flatbackfour

seavill wrote: »

There has always been part time staff and the world has survived.

And what I am saying is that these staff should be treated fairly in a system that really is pretty unfair to them.

And full time staff should insure that all staff are being treated fairly in the interest of solidarity and collegiality.

By showing solidarity with each other we all benefit and I am including students parents and the whole school community.

Look where we are now by not showing solidarity, terms and conditions being eroded, more part time staff, loss of A and B posts guidance staff cut etc etc as well as implementing "reforms".

seavill

flatbackfour wrote: »

Now you are creating straw men.

Get back to the point of part timers having to do all the CP hours while on part time contracts.

Ok I'm going to leave it at this cause your posts are not rational at all.

No one here has said you HAVE to do the hours. I have repeatedly said I'm not talking about the hours in my posts when I refer to extras

Some have the opinion you should do them. Others have said you could miss out by not being there. Unions have said you don't have to. Department have said you don't have to. People here have mentioned that principals don't expect you to in their schools. In my school someone covering long term illness has not done one cp hour. Principal is fine with it and had created hours for her next year regardless.

You are the only one saying you HAVE to do the hours.

No one can force you. Do them if you want to. Don't if you don't. I couldn't care less either way. People have spoken of their experiences in contradiction of what you say but you keep arguing against what they never said.

So best of luck with it. Good bye

flatbackfour

seavill wrote: »

Ok I'm going to leave it at this cause your posts are not rational at all.

What irrational point am i making?

No one here has said you HAVE to do the hours. I have repeatedly said I'm not talking about the hours in my posts when I refer to extras

you need to make a good impression and look like a team player if you want to keep/increase any hours you have

!! a wise decision.

I think it reflects badly on you if you try to stick rigorously to doing them on a pro-rata basis.

but I think if sets a very bad example to newer teachers on staff, as though what we're doing is just going through the motions and not very relevant to her

You are the only one saying you HAVE to do the hours.

I am being hypothetical when I say have to i,e. for those who feel they have to. (

No one can force you.

but if you want hours for next year?
If you don't look like a team player?
If your missing important information,
It gives a bad impression to management etc etc etc

But of course I am not being rational.

So best of luck with it.

I'm all right jack.

seavill

No need for that last bit. I said best of luck. I meant best of luck.

Fizzical

seavill wrote: »

Minutes of every meeting have to be made available to every member of staff as with any meeting in any walk of life. This is your proper system already in place.

In 30 years teaching I have heard minutes of two staff meetings read out at the following meeting. This was years ago.

I have never seen written minutes of any staff meeting.

Fizzical

flatbackfour wrote: »

And what I am saying is that these staff should be treated fairly in a system that really is pretty unfair to them.

And full time staff should insure that all staff are being treated fairly in the interest of solidarity and collegiality.

By showing solidarity with each other we all benefit and I am including students parents and the whole school community.

Look where we are now by not showing solidarity, terms and conditions being eroded, more part time staff, loss of A and B posts guidance staff cut etc etc as well as implementing "reforms".

If you are a union member, ask your union rep to ensure fair treatment.

This can be done by getting a staff concensus at a union meeting and the rep bringing the staff decision to the principal.

The rep can also ask the union head office to contact the school about it.

This is what a union is for. Join it and use it.

seavill

Always posted on the staff room notice board in any school I have been in. Also read at start of every staff meeting this year. In other years they were read if someone wanted to bring up something. Other than that they were proposed.

I can only speak of my experience. It was in answer to the point where management needed to come up with a method of getting info out from meetings. The method is there how well used it is obviously varies

Fizzical

seavill wrote: »

Always posted on the staff room notice board in any school I have been in. Also read at start of every staff meeting this year. In other years they were read if someone wanted to bring up something. Other than that they were proposed.

I can only speak of my experience. It was in answer to the point where management needed to come up with a method of getting info out from meetings. The method is there how well used it is obviously varies

This is why I posted.

You can't assume that all schools work the way your own school works.

If a poster has a problem in their school it's not right to put the burden back on them by saying that schools don't work that way.

Many schools don't work the way they should.

seavill

Fizzical wrote: »

This is why I posted.

You can't assume that all schools work the way your own school works.

If a poster has a problem in their school it's not right to put the burden back on them by saying that schools don't work that way.

Many schools don't work the way they should.

I never said such a thing. I spoke of my experience. The poster was looking for a method. The method is there and as far as i know is a legal requirement to do it in this manner. No where did I say every school does this. I just pointed out that the method they sought is already there and really should be in use

Fizzical

seavill wrote: »

I never said such a thing. I spoke of my experience. The poster was looking for a method. The method is there and as far as i know is a legal requirement to do it in this manner. No where did I say every school does this. I just pointed out that the method they sought is already there and really should be in use

You never said what, exactly??

The poster said management should put a system in place. You said there was a system already in place....D'oh!

Not helpful. It implies the poster doesn't know what he's talking about.

Let me repeat: If a poster has a problem in their school it's not right to put the burden back on them by saying that schools don't work that way.

whiteandlight

This is just a friendly warning to everyone to be careful as tempers seem a little frayed. Its that time of year where we are all up to our eyes in school, lets not take it out on each other.

rainbowtrout

flatbackfour wrote: »

I see that as a management problem

If they miss things should management not set up proper information systems to make sure they are brought up to speed.

If you want teachers on part time hours to attend pay them to attend. Simple. Of If i need to know the information for the benefit of the school set up systems to allow this to happen.

Why would part time teachers be paid to attend Croke Park hours when full time members of staff are not?

There isn't a management problem. Staff do hear what goes on at the meeting. If you read my original post you'll see that the problem was that by not attending those staff members did not have the opportunity to ask questions at the time or provide feedback at the time or get involved in the debate. The dynamic at a meeting where all or most staff are present is very different from talking to the principal or one member of staff for a catch up on what happened.

rainbowtrout

Fizzical wrote: »

In 30 years teaching I have heard minutes of two staff meetings read out at the following meeting. This was years ago.

I have never seen written minutes of any staff meeting.

The minutes of our staff meetings are put up on the notice board in the staff room about a week before the next staff meeting so we all have the opportunity to read them. We are asked at the start of the staff meeting if we want to comment on anything from the minutes or if there are any matters arising from them. The principal asks one of the A post holders at the start of the staff meeting to take the minutes.

Board of Management minutes are put up as well I think.

bmwguy

Jesus teachers quit moaning, I worked as a teacher for 2 years after graduating and I left for the real world because I couldnt stand the staff room moaning all the time. It is a stressful and important job but if you ever want to get anywhere, attend your meetings, contribute your ideas and dont worry whether you're paid there and then for it. You work less hours already than the general population (on average, I know some teachers go above and beyond) dont work to rule it'll get you nowhere. Do you think your principals dont attend because they dont get paid for it? Get real, help out, be team players. The example of the teacher on job share leaving half way through a meeting would see you sacked on the spot in many jobs

spurious

Reminding all to read the forum charter, thanks.

flatbackfour

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Why would part time teachers be paid to attend Croke Park hours when full time members of staff are not?

I am not saying that part time people should be paid to attend the croke park hours. Simply that arrangements for pro rata attendance in line with contractual hours as decided by unions and management are adhered to.

Its that simple.

There isn't a management problem. Staff do hear what goes on at the meeting. If you read my original post you'll see that the problem was that by not attending those staff members did not have the opportunity to ask questions at the time or provide feedback at the time or get involved in the debate. The dynamic at a meeting where all or most staff are present is very different from talking to the principal or one member of staff for a catch up on what happened.

Well if contractual arrangements are fairly adhered to and part time members attend half of the CP hours in line with contract, then it is the responsibility of management to make sure these people are informed about what goes on at these meetings. Obviously such a formal arrangement could be worked out with part time staff at a collective local level basis, with a degree of flexibility and common sense on both sides.

Part time staff should not be made to feel guilty or made to feel that are being left out of the communications loop, because they are not attending all Croke park hours.

rainbowtrout

flatbackfour wrote: »

I am not saying that part time people should be paid to attend the croke park hours. Simply that arrangements for pro rata attendance in line with contractual hours as decided by unions and management are adhered to.

Its that simple.



Well if contractual arrangements are fairly adhered to and part time members attend half of the CP hours in line with contract, then it is the responsibility of management to make sure these people are informed about what goes on at these meetings. Obviously such a formal arrangement could be worked out with part time staff at a collective local level basis, with a degree of flexibility and common sense on both sides.

Part time staff should not be made to feel guilty or made to feel that are being left out of the communications loop, because they are not attending all Croke park hours.

The hours are adhered to. As was said in another post, you are nit-picking. Nobody is suggesting a part time teacher has to go to all the CP hours, but at the same time, they may miss out on something if they don't go. It's up to the teacher to weigh up missing out vs not attending.

Before you jump on that comment by saying it's management's responsibility to inform staff members of what they missed as you did above, staff in my school are informed. My point, which I will reiterate is that staff who missing meetings (whether it be CP or just a regular staff meeting) do not have the opportunity to comment at the time or to respond to a point made by another member of staff, not necessarily management. As for putting off decisions until all staff are present, which I think you raised in a different post, well if that was the case no decisions would ever be made, there's always someone missing.


You could argue the same point for a person on job share. A teacher working in a job share capacity works Mon, Tues, Wed. A staff meeting is held on a Thursday. The teacher does not have to attend because it's one of their days off. They hear the following Monday what happened the previous week at the staff meeting, but they didn't get to provide input into the discussion because they weren't there. These kind of situations arise all the time and it's not just in teaching.

flatbackfour

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The hours are adhered to.

What I mean is that hours are done on a pro rata basis by PT staff.

As was said in another post, you are nit-picking. Nobody is suggesting a part time teacher has to go to all the CP hours, but at the same time, they may miss out on something if they don't go.

So while PT staff don't have to go they may be well "missing out" so essentially the pressure is on them to go even though they are not contractually obliged to have been told by the unions not to go.

BTW are you a union rep in your school?


I

t's up to the teacher to weigh up missing out vs not attending.

Again I see that as unfair pressure on teachers. Call it nit picking if you like but I just think we all as teachers deserve fairness.

My point, which I will reiterate is that staff who missing meetings (whether it be CP or just a regular staff meeting) do not have the opportunity to comment at the time or to respond to a point made by another member of staff, not necessarily management.

Fair point but it still does not get around the issue of why should part timers go to these meetings when they are not contractually obliged to go and are usually on 11-12 hours. Why should they? So they wont miss out?

So not only are part time staff missing out on job security, having a half salary, expected to contribute to the extra curricular life of the school as much as every other teacher (in reality many part timers do a lot more in that respect than full time people) now if they dont go to these meeting they are missing out and you think thats fair??

As for putting off decisions until all staff are present, which I think you raised in a different post, well if that was the case no decisions would ever be made, there's always someone missing.

What I mean was a mechanism to be put in place that means information gets shared effectivly where consideration is given for people with PT contracts. I dont mean decisions cannot be taken, thats a straw man as I ve said before.

You could argue the same point for a person on job share. A teacher working in a job share capacity works Mon, Tues, Wed. A staff meeting is held on a Thursday. The teacher does not have to attend because it's one of their days off.

Completely different power dynamic at play here. A person on job share is usually permanent CID, they have chosen to do this for family issues usually, in that case I think they have some added responsibility.

However someone on 10-14 hours etc does not choose this kind of contract, pay them for a full contract and then expect them to attend all CP hours.

As I've said before its no wonder the teaching profession is being devalued de-professionalised and casualised when we allow part time people to be tentatively/subtly pressured or made feel like they are missing out if they do not attend meetings- meeting they are not even getting paid for (in a pro rata context btw).

Whats more shocking than anything else is that teachers themselves, and experienced ones like yourself, cant see it.

Call it nit picking.

For me its a slow chipping away of our contractual rights, our professionalism and is exploitation.

I realize i am probably coming across as confrontational here but it annoys me when teachers cant see that when one of us is treated unfairly it actually will come back on all of us sooner of later.

implausible

Everyone here seems to be presuming that the CP hours are all unmissable, essential events. Well, in my experience they aren't. Ours encompass inservice-type talks, school fundraisers, graduation masses etc. The part-timers in our school simply take a look at the list of CP hours for the year, figure out the ones they need to go to (1st day back, staff meetings, useful inservices) and inform management.

I don't see the problem, unless someone is on a contract of <8 hours, they'll attend what's needed and be informed (formally or informally) about the rest.

rainbowtrout

Well, ok. If I was on 14 hours PRPT and i had to pick and choose which CP hours to do, I would choose to go to the staff meetings where stuff that affects the day to day running of the school is discussed and skip the talk from whatever randomer had been drafted in to give a talk on whatever the current buzzwords are in the Dept of Ed as more often that not there is a handout of the presentation and I could read it in my own time.

I don't see what me being/not being a union rep has got to do with this.

It's not exploitation. If you are on a PRPT contract for less than 22 hours and your principal has informed you that you should attend all CP hours, then yes it is. If you have the choice of attending CP hours proportional to your contract which is what everyone else has pretty much stated here then you are not being exploited.

Any teacher with more than two brain cells to rub together should be able to figure out which ones are important and which ones are not. Some parent teacher meetings come under Croke Park. If a person is not on full hours there is also good chance that they don't teach every year group and that possibly allows them to miss some CP hours automatically. I'm on full hours and don't teach every year group and didn't have to do one of the PT meetings that was under Croke Park. Not sure if I'm supposed to make it up or not.

flatbackfour

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well, ok. If I was on 14 hours PRPT and i had to pick and choose which CP hours to do, I would choose to go to the staff meetings where stuff that affects the day to day running of the school is discussed and skip the talk from whatever randomer had been drafted in to give a talk on whatever the current buzzwords are in the Dept of Ed as more often that not there is a handout of the presentation and I could read it in my own time.

Would you now? In the context of wanting your contract renewed next year, where you may have a principal who may not like that you have not attended all hours? Where you have other staff saying- he/she should be attending all CP hours because they are missing out on the decision making process?

I don't see what me being/not being a union rep has got to do with this.

As a union rep i think you should be helping ensure people are towing the line to the letter of the line and not be saying "its up to individual teachers what they want do do etc". With issues like this where people are in a vunerable position contract wise it all about solidarity and following union directives to the absolute. Anything else opens part time staff to exploitation. Sure most principals are fair, a fair few are not though.

It's not exploitation. If you are on a PRPT contract for less than 22 hours and your principal has informed you that you should attend all CP hours, then yes it is. If you have the choice of attending CP hours proportional to your contract which is what everyone else has pretty much stated here then you are not being exploited.

A lot of teachers have advised its better to attend all meetings. read some of the comments.


for example; you should attend them all it would look bad if you didnt. or if you want to keep your hours for next year I would advise you to attend, makes you look like your not a team player etc,

Any teacher with more than two brain cells to rub together should be able to figure out which ones are important and which ones are not. Some parent teacher meetings come under Croke Park. If a person is not on full hours there is also good chance that they don't teach every year group and that possibly allows them to miss some CP hours automatically. I'm on full hours and don't teach every year group and didn't have to do one of the PT meetings that was under Croke Park. Not sure if I'm supposed to make it up or not

I don't believe in letting the working rights of teachers down to issues of whether they have classes for parent teacher meetings etc or having individual teachers make up their own minds about what meetings they want to attend and what they wont attend.

Lets face it part timers feel under pressure for their jobs. they are going to attend all of the meetings because they feel vulnerable about their position. If you leave the decision in their hand most will attend all the CP hours. Is that fair NO.


It is exploitation. Its insidious creeping exploitation.

I know there is a lot of pressure put on part timers in many schools to attend all hours- its subtle but non the less there.

I just though it would not be coming from fellow teachers too.

the only way to stamp out that subtle pressure is to firmly say to all PTs through a union directive given to all staff and principals about each individuals responsibilities relating to CP hours.

Listen I understand where you are coming from on this one but I don't think you really get the power dynamic at play here and the subtle form of pressure part time staff are increasingly under.

flatbackfour

Fizzical wrote: »

If you are a union member, ask your union rep to ensure fair treatment.

This can be done by getting a staff concensus at a union meeting and the rep bringing the staff decision to the principal.

The rep can also ask the union head office to contact the school about it.

This is what a union is for. Join it and use it.

I am in a union.

But I dont think an issue like this can be sorted out at local level, it needs direction at national level and proper follow through.

implausible

flatbackfour wrote: »

Would you now? In the context of wanting your contract renewed next year, where you may have a principal who may not like that you have not attended all hours? Where you have other staff saying- he/she should be attending all CP hours because they are missing out on the decision making process?

A lot of teachers have advised its better to attend all meetings. read some of the comments.

the only way to stamp out that subtle pressure is to firmly say to all PTs through a union directive given to all staff and principals about each individuals responsibilities relating to CP hours.

You keep referring to meetings. Not all CP hours are meetings or involve decision-making.

Did I miss something here? I thought the union position was that part-timers should attend CP hours pro-rata

flatbackfour

implausible wrote: »

You keep referring to meetings. Not all CP hours are meetings or involve decision-making.

Did I miss something here? I thought the union position was that part-timers should attend CP hours pro-rata

Straw man. When I say meeting I mean CP hours in general what ever they are. Someone else mentioned decision making etc, I was responding to them. I find it interesting that you get so pedantic about meetings etc, but miss the substantitive point about part time teachers and subtle exploitation??

I dont want to make this discussion personal. I would rather stick to the points of should Part time staff go to all the CP hours or not. What ever these hours are made up of.

rainbowtrout

flatbackfour wrote: »

As a union rep i think you should be helping ensure people are towing the line to the letter of the line and not be saying "its up to individual teachers what they want do do etc".


Listen I understand where you are coming from on this one but I don't think you really get the power dynamic at play here and the subtle form of pressure part time staff are increasingly under.

Why have you just decided that I'm a union rep? I'm not.

I also don't think you're in a position to tell me what I do and don't understand about part timers jobs. I understand only too well. I've offered to take an oversized class next year to save some of the part timers hours. I don't want to see my friends and work colleagues on the dole.

seavill

Fizzical wrote: »

You never said what, exactly??

The poster said management should put a system in place. You said there was a system already in place....D'oh!

Not helpful. It implies the poster doesn't know what he's talking about.

Let me repeat: If a poster has a problem in their school it's not right to put the burden back on them by saying that schools don't work that way.

For christ sake. I never said anything I say applies to every school across the country. I simply said there is a system in place for minutes of a meeting etc.
If the principal of that school is not following that system as far as I know it is a requirement to do as such, then they should be reported. If they are (which the other poster didn't suggest otherwise) then there is no problem.

I never said the other poster didn't know what they were talking about. (PLEASE QUOTE ME AND SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THIS BEFORE ACCUSING ME OF ANYTHING ELSE)
I am sick of posting things here and people then putting words in my mouth. Could you please read my post carefully before aCcusing me of things I did not do or say.

and "let me repeat" in case you missed it the first five times I said it. I never said schools dont work that way I simply explained what happens in any school I have been in, which another poster agreed with afterwards, and I have stated that from my knowledge this is the way it should be done in all schools. Maybe it is helpful posts like what I have just said that might help people out and let them know what should be happening. As opposed to unhelpful posts putting words in the mouths of others and not adding anything to the discussion.

Fizzical

seavill wrote: »

For christ sake. I never said anything I say applies to every school across the country. I simply said there is a system in place for minutes of a meeting etc.

There is no system in place for minutes of a meeting in my school, nor in the other poster's school seemingly. That's my point.

If the principal of that school is not following that system as far as I know it is a requirement to do as such, then they should be reported.

Requirement? Required by whom? I've never heard of any requirements re the conduct of staff meetings. Please let me know - I'd love to report them!