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A warning about Renewable Energy

  • 04-11-2012 3:26pm
    #1
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭


    http://www.turn180.ie/?p=636

    http://www.turn180.ie/?p=651

    Though the articles were written in Britain, they are quiet relevant to us in Ireland as we are going down the same slippery slope.

    I've been saying it for years that the world needs to waken up to the inevitability that we need to invest big time into the research and development in L.F.T.R Thorium power.

    Thousands of years of clean cheap energy. And before anyone harps on about Nuclear, research before you come on saying I don't know what I'm talking about.

    And also think about the fact electricity generation is only a part of our total energy needs. We can use Thorium for electricity generation which can also provide heating eliminating the need for heating oil and gas. It can be used for our transport both for Battery electric cars and Hydrogen for heavy goods use etc.

    I know Thorium has been debated here before but the above articles only go to prove we need to invest now and stop the renewable madness.

    I was shocked when I found out the price per kw/hr the German's have to pay which is almost twice what we pay, to pay for all the renewable madness and the German's will be paying for it for decades. (EDIT Seems like my facts were off, the German rate per kw/hr is 24 cent, I was mistakingly looking at u.s cents. )

    We are already paying enough to the banks without paying greedy energy companies more, and more carbon tax which is just a justification for more revenue. How much do we have to pay to take notice ? look at petrol and diesel ? how much before we can't drive any more.

    The Government will only realise it when it's too late, they are too focused on the green agenda and it isn't to save us from the theoretical threat of man made global warming, but for energy companies and foreign investors to benefit while you and I pay more on our bills.

    Who is advising our Government ?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey



    Probally CRH the amount of concrete that is going into windmills is massive each one is the equivlent to a mini housing estate


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Probally CRH the amount of concrete that is going into windmills is massive each one is the equivlent to a mini housing estate

    Some environmentalists pointed recently that as Britain attempts to source more and more renewable energy from Ireland they are effectively really just outsourcing and thus passing the buck on the negative environmental impacts of windfarms which is landscape destruction and public backlashes. That really makes me uncomfortable as the scenic beauty of the Irish landscape is a major asset but is very sensitive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    This book is worth a read if you want the numbers behind the various sources of energy. Its very good and very transparent and objective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,468 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    The obvious solution would be investment in PV solar rather than wind or tidal etc then simply coat every house roof with it, making each one a generating station. You would of course need to greatly increase the efficiency and the efficiency of storage batteries or preferably capacitors but definitely a much more viable longer term option compared to wind etc.
    Geothermal is another source thats woefully under used, once setup a deep drill plant can provide very low cost low maintenance power too for commercial and ind use to supplement the solar.

    Thorium doesn't exactly strike me as cheap and abundant enough to use as a large scale fuel source for too long...


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    The obvious solution would be investment in PV solar rather than wind or tidal etc then simply coat every house roof with it, making each one a generating station. You would of course need to greatly increase the efficiency and the efficiency of storage batteries or preferably capacitors but definitely a much more viable longer term option compared to wind etc.
    Geothermal is another source thats woefully under used, once setup a deep drill plant can provide very low cost low maintenance power too for commercial and ind use to supplement the solar.

    Thorium doesn't exactly strike me as cheap and abundant enough to use as a large scale fuel source for too long...

    There is at least 10,000 years supply of Thorium in Norway, I kid you not!

    L.F.T.R reactors also use 99% of the fuel compared to Uranium which uses 1% so there is only 1% the waste from L.F.T.R compared to Uranium.

    It's cheap and the reactors are a lot cheaper to build than the boiling water reactors in use today because L.F.T.R don't require the big mad concrete cooling towers.

    You see the years of the Green movement failed to realise the other side of Nuclear, which is actually greener than all the other so called green technologies.

    If we had a few reactors in Ireland it would mean much less imported fuel, much cleaner air, and much cheaper electricity bills.

    It will cost but importing fossil fuels is an ongoing and ever increasing cost.

    Wind, Solar while they sound good you have the problems as in the articles above, + all the turbines on land, and all the cables etc, it's not exactly cheap.

    We are charged carbon tax on our bills and all fuel, so if our electricity is generated carbon free there will be no need for carbon tax.

    Most of the billions of Euro we send to other countries for our fuel can be instead spent in Ireland.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Whiskeyjack


    You'll have to forgive me for questioning the validity and objectivity of your source material given the banner above it says "Humans are not causing global warming", which flies in the face of evidence that's been mounting for decades, not least of which the research into the cause of hurricane Sandy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    You'll have to forgive me for questioning the validity and objectivity of your source material given the banner above it says "Humans are not causing global warming", which flies in the face of evidence that's been mounting for decades, not least of which the research into the cause of hurricane Sandy.

    Turn180 aren't for turning, I suspect.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,016 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    robp wrote: »
    Some environmentalists pointed recently that as Britain attempts to source more and more renewable energy from Ireland they are effectively really just outsourcing and thus passing the buck on the negative environmental impacts of windfarms which is landscape destruction and public backlashes. That really makes me uncomfortable as the scenic beauty of the Irish landscape is a major asset but is very sensitive.
    Hmmm, think that horse has long since bolted with the Bungalow Blitz of the 70's and the McMansion fever of the naughties tbh. We've already destroyed most of our pristine views already. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭bbsrs


    murphaph wrote: »
    Hmmm, think that horse has long since bolted with the Bungalow Blitz of the 70's and the McMansion fever of the naughties tbh. We've already destroyed most of our pristine views already. :(

    What would you call a pristine view?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,690 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Who is advising our Government ?
    It doesn't actually matter which government we have in power as Ireland (and many other countries including Greece which is nearly destroyed by its involvement with the European Project). The reason is that we are bound by an EU directive (2009/28/EC if I am not mistaken) to push more renewable power into the grid regardless of cost. The target is 20% by 2020. There is also a target for 10% in trasnport ... I have no idea how but.

    This means that our national government has to rubber-stamp legislation demanding the meeting of these targets, so if that means massive paydays for renewable project developers, insane levels of subsidies and taxes, so be it. And there's not a damn thing we the people can do about it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    murphaph wrote: »
    Hmmm, think that horse has long since bolted with the Bungalow Blitz of the 70's and the McMansion fever of the naughties tbh. We've already destroyed most of our pristine views already. :(

    Just like the view that was "destroyed" by the 4 turbine windfarm in Indreabhan that would ruin the "visual amenity" of the area - a windfarm that can only be seen from a certain narrow corridor on the road!

    There's an awful lot of hot air being talked about "visual amenitiy" - almost exclusively by non-locals who want their holiday area to remain quaint and rustic and to hell with what the people that actually live there think or want!


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    You'll have to forgive me for questioning the validity and objectivity of your source material given the banner above it says "Humans are not causing global warming", which flies in the face of evidence that's been mounting for decades, not least of which the research into the cause of hurricane Sandy.

    We're not debating the existance of man made global warming in this thread thank you!

    If people want to debate it start another thread, and do your research and don't base your decisions on media information.

    Research both sides of the argument.

    www.wattsupwiththat.com is a good one very informative and will be the opposite of information we are used to hearing in the media it's based on real facts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    I was shocked when I found out the price per kw/hr the German's have to pay which is almost twice what we pay, to pay for all the renewable madness and the German's will be paying for it for decades.

    Once you throw in a single outright and verifiable lie, the rest of your post becomes meaningless.

    http://www.energy.eu/

    Cost per kWHr:
    3,500 kWh/year (± 25%) Consumption: 7,500 kWh/year (± 30%)
    Germany € 0.2541 Germany € 0.2406
    Ireland € 0.1920 Ireland € 0.1604

    The vast majority of households would be in the region of 3,500 kWh/year.
    They're paying ~25% extra in Germany. Not 'almost twice'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    murphaph wrote: »
    Hmmm, think that horse has long since bolted with the Bungalow Blitz of the 70's and the McMansion fever of the naughties tbh. We've already destroyed most of our pristine views already. :(
    Pristine views?
    Ask feckin Cromwell, he saw them last when he was setting them on fire.


  • Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭bbsrs


    antoobrien wrote: »

    Just like the view that was "destroyed" by the 4 turbine windfarm in Indreabhan that would ruin the "visual amenity" of the area - a windfarm that can only be seen from a certain narrow corridor on the road!

    There's an awful lot of hot air being talked about "visual amenitiy" - almost exclusively by non-locals who want their holiday area to remain quaint and rustic and to hell with what the people that actually live there think or want!

    The holiday home and hill walker brigades deserve to have the countryside protected for their pleasure after all they are the ones paying taxes which subsidize the rural dwellers taxes to maintain rural infrastructure.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Gurgle wrote: »
    Once you throw in a single outright and verifiable lie, the rest of your post becomes meaningless.

    http://www.energy.eu/

    Cost per kWHr:
    3,500 kWh/year (± 25%) Consumption: 7,500 kWh/year (± 30%)
    Germany € 0.2541 Germany € 0.2406
    Ireland € 0.1920 Ireland € 0.1604

    The vast majority of households would be in the region of 3,500 kWh/year.
    They're paying ~25% extra in Germany. Not 'almost twice'.

    Indeed you are correct, seems I was looking at U.S cents.

    You could simply have said that wasn't correct instead of calling me a liar, and you are a moderator ?

    Anyway saying the rest of my post is meaningless is your opinion , I'll let others decide for themselves if that's okay with you !


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,690 ✭✭✭SeanW


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Just like the view that was "destroyed" by the 4 turbine windfarm in Indreabhan that would ruin the "visual amenity" of the area - a windfarm that can only be seen from a certain narrow corridor on the road!

    There's an awful lot of hot air being talked about "visual amenitiy" - almost exclusively by non-locals who want their holiday area to remain quaint and rustic and to hell with what the people that actually live there think or want!
    Almost exclusively by non-locals worried about their holiday area? To hell with wht the people there think or want? So wind farms don't attract NIMBYs then? That would be news to some of the good people around Ballydehob Co. Cork.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,690 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Gurgle wrote: »
    Cost per kWHr:
    3,500 kWh/year (± 25%) Consumption: 7,500 kWh/year (± 30%)
    Germany € 0.2541 Germany € 0.2406
    Ireland € 0.1920 Ireland € 0.1604
    In the first scenario, the difference is over 6c/kWh, in the second it's greater than 8c/kWh.

    It's been a while since I've been to a maths class (thought not as long as you I suspect) but I seem to recall that adding 8 to 16 results in a difference of 50%, not 25% as your equally egregious "calculations" imply.

    Even in the first scenario, it's more like 1/3 than 25%


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭Icepick


    Nothing wrong with wind farms.
    One-off housing, ribbon development and deforestation are an actual problem and eye sores.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,016 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    bbsrs wrote: »
    What would you call a pristine view?
    Hard to say, but I don't see any major difference between carpeting the countryside in one off houses and carpeting it in windmills. The Irish countryside has already been suburbanised.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭Icepick


    murphaph wrote: »
    Hard to say, but I don't see any major difference between carpeting the countryside in one off houses and carpeting it in windmills.
    new-ugly-house2-2.jpg
    (increases unsustainability)

    VS


    AF-turbinesb.jpg(decreases unsustainability)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    Wind farms are the next white elephant. They are at present a tax incentivised driven project. We are about 10 years into them and they still cannot tanmd om there won two feet even though carbon fuels have gone up by 200% in that time.

    If we are intrested in wind energy we should stop subsidising them, instead we should be funding a electricity storage project along the west of Ireland if it is feasible.

    It may not make economic sence to continue it at this time. If that is the reality then we should start to move away from wind farms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,016 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Icepick wrote: »
    image removed
    I think you misunderstand. From a visual amenity perspective I have nothing against windmills and I think many that do have probably already built themselves their own private eyesore in a field somewhere.

    I'm not convinced by wind power without storage however. We can build all the wind farms we want, but we need to be able to store the energy or it's largely pointless.

    I think transport will be able to use wind in the form of more efficient battery storage for electric vehicles, but that's not enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    murphaph wrote: »
    We can build all the wind farms we want, but we need to be able to store the energy or it's largely pointless.

    Of course it's not pointless, it just means that without storage you need some other form of energy to supplement it when the wind isn't strong enough.

    The current situation is that we burn fossil fuels for energy even when the wind is blowing strong, now that's pointless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    sharper wrote: »
    Of course it's not pointless, it just means that without storage you need some other form of energy to supplement it when the wind isn't strong enough.

    The current situation is that we burn fossil fuels for energy even when the wind is blowing strong, now that's pointless.

    The reality is that other than gas there is no fossil fuel that can be turned on and off fast or that you can control the output of so that if wind is blowing at half speed you can supplement. The reality is that what is happening in Ireland at present is that we are producing electricity from wind that has no purpose as we have little or no control of it. On top of that we are paying the producers top dollor for it even if it is produce at 3am in the morning and we have no use for it so it is increasing our energy costs with little economic benifit.

    Wind is not choosey when it blows so we have to make sure that we can cover the peak demand periods from 8am to 10am, and from5pm to 7pm. Unless we put in a storage system and at present there is only one option wheather it is feasible or not is the 20 billion euro question


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    SeanW wrote: »
    Almost exclusively by non-locals worried about their holiday area? To hell with wht the people there think or want? So wind farms don't attract NIMBYs then? That would be news to some of the good people around Ballydehob Co. Cork.

    Don't be absurd, almost every project in the country - from a house to a skyscraper - attracts the ire of NIMBYs. To my experience the massed objections are usually misguided, as is the case in the example given - the view is most certainly not destroyed by the windfarm, it's hardly noticable unless you are in certain locations.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    You could simply have said that wasn't correct instead of calling me a liar, and you are a moderator ?

    I apologize, it was an inappropriate knee jerk reaction to a misinformed post.
    On a pure technicality, I was calling your source a liar rather than yourself.

    I am very much on the skeptical side of global warming, but the bullshìt pimped by the likes of turn180 is about as scientific as the old testament.

    (btw I'm not a moderator on this forum, my posts have neither more nor less weight than yours)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    sharper wrote: »
    Of course it's not pointless, it just means that without storage you need some other form of energy to supplement it when the wind isn't strong enough.
    Well then we need a smart strategy for storage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    bbsrs wrote: »
    The holiday home and hill walker brigades deserve to have the countryside protected for their pleasure after all they are the ones paying taxes which subsidize the rural dwellers taxes to maintain rural infrastructure.

    So the needs of the few outsiders, who pollute the environment to get there and build eyesores for their holiday homes (e.g. Michael McDowell's holiday home in Roscommon, which wouldn't look out of place on Embassy Row) outweigh the needs of the locals.

    The bit about the infrastructure is as laughable as it is wrong. About half the population of the country live outside of urban areas. Where rural people have to pay to build and maintain sewage systems, wells or group water schemes, residents of Cork, Dublin, Galway & Limerick don't have to pay a red cent towards their ongoing costs (and it shows in the state of the water network in the cities).

    There's a subsidy paid in this country to keep the townies quiet and to hell with the rest of us, so take your hiking boots and hike along grand canal quay.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    SeanW wrote: »
    In the first scenario, the difference is over 6c/kWh, in the second it's greater than 8c/kWh.

    It's been a while since I've been to a maths class (thought not as long as you I suspect) but I seem to recall that adding 8 to 16 results in a difference of 50%, not 25% as your equally egregious "calculations" imply.

    Even in the first scenario, it's more like 1/3 than 25%
    I'm good with the maths thanks, but its a long time since I studied semantics.

    .192 / .2541 = 0.7556 ~75.6%
    "The cost of electricity in Ireland is 75% of that in Germany"

    .2541 / .192 = 1.323 ~132.3%
    "The cost of electricity in Germany is 32.3% more than in Ireland"


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