Which indoor aerial for saorview?

Fromthetrees

Simple question really, any advice appreciated.

I live about 400 metres from my nearest transmitter and want to get RTE and TG4 in HD without taking out a hd subscription with UPC.
http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/coverage-map/

Should I buy
1.
this
2.
this
3.
this
or
4.
this

I won't be relying on it for viewing the tv usually just the odd match. I can see the transmitter from my window so I'm convinced I will be able to pick up a clear single with the right indoor aerial although I'm going to be keeping it right by the tv so it won't be near the window.

Thanks.

lucernarian

Probably any aerial (except perhaps the rabbits ears) will work, so long as it's something you can place at the window in question.

I suggest looking in "poundland"/"eurovalue" type shops as you'll get a basic indoor aerial there and for less money. If you have a choice, avoid the aerials with extendable rods, aka rabbits ears. Other types, like the third aerial you linked to except without the rod at the back, work better.

Does the saorview coverage map tell you if the recommended Saorview signal's polarity is horizontal or vertical??

Atlantic Dawn

TG4 HD is only currently on UPC.

Fromthetrees

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Probably any aerial (except perhaps the rabbits ears) will work, so long as it's something you can place at the window in question.

I suggest looking in "poundland"/"eurovalue" type shops as you'll get a basic indoor aerial there and for less money. If you have a choice, avoid the aerials with extendable rods, aka rabbits ears. Other types, like the third aerial you linked to except without the rod at the back, work better.

Does the saorview coverage map tell you if the recommended Saorview signal's polarity is horizontal or vertical??

I live in a vertical transmitter area, what aerial would be best suited for that?
So, stay away from rabbits ears and the 3rd one is best suited for the job, is that because it has a wide receiver compared to the others?

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

TG4 HD is only currently on UPC.

Didn't know that, RTE2 HD is pretty good anyway, if I only had that I'd be happy.

lucernarian

If the third antenna can be vertically polarised, then yes. But if you can see the transmitter from where you live and it's less than a km away, some kind of homemade aerial or even a bent coathanger might work.

bmaxi

I live over 20 miles from my local transmitter and can confirm that No. 1 works perfectly well, so I'd imagine 400 metres should be a doddle unless there's a 50 ft. wall outside your window I bought it in my local Euro shop for two euro.

winston_1

bmaxi wrote: »

I live over 20 miles from my local transmitter and can confirm that No. 1 works perfectly well, so I'd imagine 400 metres should be a doddle unless there's a 50 ft. wall outside your window I bought it in my local Euro shop for two euro.

That is a meaningless statement without knowing the powers of yours and the OP transmitters. Only about 10% of the population can use indoor aerials.

watty

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Simple question really, any advice appreciated.

I live about 400 metres from my nearest transmitter and want to get RTE and TG4 in HD without taking out a hd subscription with UPC.
http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/coverage-map/

Should I buy
1.
this
2.
this
3.
this
or
4.
this

I won't be relying on it for viewing the tv usually just the odd match. I can see the transmitter from my window so I'm convinced I will be able to pick up a clear single with the right indoor aerial although I'm going to be keeping it right by the tv so it won't be near the window.

Thanks.

Only number 3 is better than a piece of coax with outer stripped back 15cm / 6"!

But even #3 is over priced and the rod is pointless.

€6 to €12 in a Bargain shop, anything remotely like



Fit extension cable to move it on a window sill, bookcase or whatever for best reception. All indoor aerials have stupidly short aerial cables.

I use an VHS to TV coax to extend one a bit.

Capt'n Midnight

watty wrote: »

This sort of thing works indoors 30Km from Kippure and 15Km from Three Rock, but haven't tried it in pouring rain.

But an external antenna is always the best option if there is any way you can do it.

watty

It works perfectly in our kitchen on Digital, but was poor on Analogue. Doesn't work in living room except on window sill as there are two walls between TV location and TV TX about 13km away.

No aerial works in attic as end wall of house is in the way. Perfect reception on an aerial just above back door height on the wall.

lucernarian

winston_1 wrote: »

That is a meaningless statement without knowing the powers of yours and the OP transmitters. Only about 10% of the population can use indoor aerials.

That's a ridiculous comment, RTE themselves have said something of the order of 50% of houses can use an indoor aerial. It all depends on where the tv is used, having a window facing the transmitter where an aerial can be left is the single most important factor in using an indoor aerial.

I think BBC R&D also produced figures for what field strength a given location would need for indoor reception of varying levels of service. I think 10% and 50% of points within a house served, were worked out. But I can't remember the details of that document.

marno21

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

That's a ridiculous comment, RTE themselves have said something of the order of 50% of houses can use an indoor aerial. It all depends on where the tv is used, having a window facing the transmitter where an aerial can be left is the single most important factor in using an indoor aerial.

I think BBC R&D also produced figures for what field strength a given location would need for indoor reception of varying levels of service. I think 10% and 50% of points within a house served, were worked out. But I can't remember the details of that document.

The OP does have a point though. If I lived 400m from the Gorey transmitter at 10W, it would likely not work very well and be prone to break up. However if I lived 400m from Mullaghanish I'd expect it to work (or likely overload the TV )

watty

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

That's a ridiculous comment, RTE themselves have said something of the order of 50% of houses can use an indoor aerial.

No, The technical people claim the network is designed for Roof Aerials. Closer to 10% can get reliable reception on an indoor aerial. An indoor aerial is also VERY sensitive to location in the house.

400m from 10W transmitter an Indoor 5 element yagi aerial will work in a room with window facing mast.

Capt'n Midnight

marno21 wrote: »

However if I lived 400m from Mullaghanish

You wouldn't be able to turn off any fluorescent tubes

STB

I have done extensive tests with indoor aerials. Most are crap.

The one that came out on top and that I use to this day is the Funke DSC210 / 45T DVB-T Indoor Antenna, passive type which powers off the 5v from the box. It has about 10ft of thin cable to run to your choice of location.



I am 57km from Mt Leinster and this indoor aerial is solid. The reception never dips even in poor weather. I cannot recommend it enough.

jeltz

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

TG4 HD is only currently on UPC.

Is it really HD?

Do they make or show any genuine HD programmes?

Not ones they pretend are HD.

Or is it all upscaled?

If it is all or nearly all upscaled surely you won't gain by getting it, if you were to pay for it surely you would be throwing your money away. It would be fraud! :mad:

Capt'n Midnight

STB wrote: »

The one that came out on top and that I use to this day is the Funke DSC210 / 45T DVB-T Indoor Antenna, passive type which powers off the 5v from the box.

Beam width: 360º - So I'll pass.

It is aestheticly pleasing which some people will like.

STB

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Beam width: 360º - So I'll pass.

It is aestheticly pleasing which some people will like.

Well we are talking about indoor aerials here.

What beam width would you expect ?

I didn't pick it for its aesthetics. I tested about 15 different types. This one outperformed every other indoor aerial that I tested. It outperforms the aerial on my roof which is prone to breakup! Infact you will find it difficult to get this as it came directly from Funke. They have since replaced it with anew model, but I haven't tested that one so would rather not recommend something I haven't tested. But the old one is still available from some online stores.

jeltz

I wonder if it has a phased array of dipoles inside like a grid or a fractal planar antenna inside.

Mini antenna design is improving in leaps, the yagi is very dated now but still functional.

STB

jeltz wrote: »

I wonder if it has a phased array of dipoles inside like a grid or a fractal planar antenna inside.

Mini antenna design is improving in leaps, the yagi is very dated now but still functional.

Honey I shrunk a few phased dipoles antenna.

Very low noise in the amplifier stage is my guess. Just one of those products that you come across that outperforms stuff with better claimed specifications for not much more money.

A bit like Inverto Black Ultra LNBs that actually perform better lnbs with so called lower noise.

jeltz

I expect you are right about the Funke.

Yes, Inverto Black Ultras really do work, I have a few in use.

My take was that they use higher spec lower noise components than normal and have stringent quality testing.

lucernarian

watty wrote: »

No, The technical people claim the network is designed for Roof Aerials. Closer to 10% can get reliable reception on an indoor aerial. An indoor aerial is also VERY sensitive to location in the house.

400m from 10W transmitter an Indoor 5 element yagi aerial will work in a room with window facing mast.

I must point out that RTE themselves were the one who mentioned 50% of household coverage using indoor-use aerials. I can't remember the exact criteria they defined.

I've explained earlier that location in the house is a critical factor. Also with indoor aerials, all bets are off when it comes to having no glitches or breakup at any time. Going on what I see on boards and in the wider world, indoor aerials are used more for financial reasons than anything else. So the breakup they get when someone walks into a room or switches a light on is more tolerable, given how it cost €2 in the local pound shop.

Anyway a claim that "Only about 10% of the population can use indoor aerials" is way off the mark. If anyone even included only places which are less then 4km from a site with max ERP of 10kW or greater, and also must have a clear line of sight to the site from at least one window in the house, that would approach 10% of the population!

Between the unintended consequences of very high broadcast power for DVB-T in Ireland and the willingness of people to find the one point in the room where their argos aerial works more reliably, the use of indoor aerials on a widespread basis is here to stay.

The Cush

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I must point out that RTE themselves were the one who mentioned 50% of household coverage using indoor-use aerials. I can't remember the exact criteria they defined.

From the Saorview FAQ

Can I Use An Indoor Portable Aerial, Rabbits Ears?

RTÉNL does not recommend the use of indoor portable aerials. They are too susceptible to localised physical and electrical interference. Terrestrial transmission of television, analogue and digital, is designed and built around rooftop reception.

It will be possible for over 50% of the population to receive SAORVIEW with an indoor portable aerial. However on a house to house basis there are many factors than impact on the effectiveness of a portable aerial. For example the orientation of your house, the location of the television in the house, the construction materials, the insulation materials, the proximity to neighbouring houses, walls and obstructions will all impact reception.

An outdoor aerial, positioned as high as possible, pointing towards the appropriate transmission site, with no local obstructions is recommended and will give the best results.

jeltz

I think RTÉ are talking themselves up with 50%. :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight

jeltz wrote: »

I think RTÉ are talking themselves up with 50%. :rolleyes:

Not so sure.
Based on my experience half of Dublin should be able to get Kippure/Three Rock with a well located good quality indoor aerial.

Must dig up an old masthead amp / booster to see how they go.

watty

In terms of away from Dublin City, which is mostly cabled, about 10% of people can get reliable reception with an indoor aerial.

In terms of Dublin and surroundings the 50% is nonsense for reliable reception. No-one in RTE NL when met face to face was suggesting any such figure.

If you get reliable indoor reception, fine. if you don't get reliable reception get an aerial.

watty

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Not so sure.
Based on my experience half of Dublin should be able to get Kippure/Three Rock with a well located good quality indoor aerial.

Must dig up an old masthead amp / booster to see how they go.

Wrong side of building and it's likely you get nothing.

lucernarian

watty wrote: »

In terms of away from Dublin City, which is mostly cabled, about 10% of people can get reliable reception with an indoor aerial.

In terms of Dublin and surroundings the 50% is nonsense for reliable reception. No-one in RTE NL when met face to face was suggesting any such figure.

If you get reliable indoor reception, fine. if you don't get reliable reception get an aerial.

You may be ignoring the possibility that people would ignore or tolerate occasional interference and breakup purely because they spent so little money in getting a signal and/or it was so convenient. The use of the word "reliable" in your posts changes the point being made substantially.

The majority of indoor aerials I've seen being used for Saorview have had occasional breakup and the people involved seemed happy to accept this consequence.

Also, there are more cities with a powerful broadcasting site in its vicinity than just Dublin.

lucernarian

watty wrote: »

Wrong side of building and it's likely you get nothing.

That's the point I made earlier, if all you need is one room or one window where you can leave an aerial and watch TV from it, then for all intentions it's a house that can receive adequate service with an indoors-only aerial.

The field strengths in a given locality needed to serve 90% of a typical semi-d's volume would be much higher than that needed to serve 10% of a typical semi-d, 99% of the time.

BBC R&D have provided such figures as I mentioned before but obviously all the criteria they used to provide the figure would have to be found too if it were to be used in comparisons with Saorview service in Ireland.

Fromthetrees

Thanks for the replies lads, I went with number 3.

I like Argos, (I don't work for Argos) they have a good returns system going so if the aerial didn't pick up a signal I would have just returned it. Put on MNS there on RTE2 HD and the signal and quality is showing up 90%/100% which is excellent, with zero freezing or stalling. It's a nice cheapo way around paying UPC anymore money and RTE have a very good selection of sport in HD (I don't work for RTE).

lawhec

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

BBC R&D have provided such figures as I mentioned before but obviously all the criteria they used to provide the figure would have to be found too if it were to be used in comparisons with Saorview service in Ireland.

I recall a number of years ago that BBC R&D did a technical study of the pre-DSO Freeview network and concluded that approx 15% of the UK population could receive at least some Freeview broadcasts with an indoor aerial in a ground floor room. This rose to 25% on a first floor rooms, with the usual caveats in both cases of positioning the indoor aerial being critical.

jeltz

That sounds a lot more realistic than 50%.

marno21

Remember that a lot of Irish DTT broadcasts are not only very high powered, but also some transmitters had very large power increases.

People in Limerick may have had trouble with Woodcock Hill indoors, but the 10kW DTT power should work no bother.

Most of Dublin City, Cork City, Limerick City, parts of Galway and Waterford cities can get it on an indoor. 50% does seem like a realistic figue

lawhec

50% is perhaps half realistic considering that many of the urban population centres are now served by some very high-powered DTT transmitters compared to analogue e.g. Three Rock's 63kW compared to 25kW analogue, Woodcock Hill has gone from 2kW nominal for analogue to 10kW DTT, Spur Hill from 10kW analogue to 50kW DTT. Galway and Waterford cities now have sites of there own with modest (250W) power levels to serve urban areas. When you consider the percentage of the population that live within the three main cities of the state, 50% isn't an outrageous prediction at least for first-floor reception.

STB

lawhec wrote: »

50% isn't an outrageous prediction at least for first-floor reception.

Sadly you must divide that by the people who will position it in the wrong place (top of the TV) and give up on it as a solution as it "keeps breaking up".

The blame for this is largely down to manufacturers as most provide extremely short fly leads which restricts the right place for positioning.

STB

marno21 wrote: »

Remember that a lot of Irish DTT broadcasts are not only very high powered, but also some transmitters had very large power increases.

People in Limerick may have had trouble with Woodcock Hill indoors, but the 10kW DTT power should work no bother.

Most of Dublin City, Cork City, Limerick City, parts of Galway and Waterford cities can get it on an indoor. 50% does seem like a realistic figue

This also has the reverse effect for outdoor aerials - RF overload caused by masthead amps maxed out having been optimised for previous analogue reception.

PilotBuddy

I have found that you cannot depend on a successful reception on any given day. I am 15k from nearest transmitter. I can see it with binoculars. I can have perfect reception for 3 or 4 days and then have it breaking up most of the time for another 2 or 3 days. My set up has not changed in the intervening period so it must be a signal variation issue or atmospherics causing fluctuating signal strength. I talked to neighbours and a local installer and they are having the same issues. Awaiting a response from Saorview.

lucernarian

jeltz wrote: »

That sounds a lot more realistic than 50%.

Did you note the part of Lawhec's post, where he mentioned pre-DSO power?

watty

Few people will extend the aerial cable to put the aerial in a better location, almost no-one will cable from upstairs or a different room to where they want the TV.

10% is the realistic figure for an indoor aerial at the TV for reliable reception.

lucernarian

watty wrote: »

Few people will extend the aerial cable to put the aerial in a better location, almost no-one will cable from upstairs or a different room to where they want the TV.

10% is the realistic figure for an indoor aerial at the TV.

I've seen too many people desperate and willing to try all options for better TV reception in an apartment to deem that statistic credible. Also, flatscreen TVs don't allow for the placing of indoor aerials for the most part, so this encourages the placing of aerials on the only flat fixed surface in a room that's not the floor: the windowsill.

This figure of yours could be backed up if you were willing to work out an accurate field strength contour that meets the criteria of e.g. "50% of locations served indoors 99% of the time" using expected reception scenarios and weightings applied to each, along with the prevalence of different construction materials used in building walls and currently available indoor aerial designs and so on.

Making unfalsifiable statements about how people watch Saorview in the real world is not a way to contradict claims.

sesswhat

I've calculated the real figure to be 28.3792% (give or take 25%).

Capt'n Midnight

Hi Guys,

I live in Balrothery Nth Dublin .. currently using a walker satelite receiver running off a ex sky dish and we are getting lots of channels no prob at all.

If we get a ''saorview box'' do ya reckon we could run it off an indoor aerial? if so any recommendations which box and aerial?

Thx,

If you can then use an external antenna.

In your case you could probably bolt it to the sky dish so no drilling required.



Check out your neighbours, if you are hight enough it might be possible to get UK channels too. (unlikely - but worth considering)

Capt'n Midnight

the reason for not getting the external antenna is cost!

In which case keep looking in the pound shops for a Yagi

ignore rabbits ears, they are for the old VHF band



would be nice if there was a DIY antenna with dimensions for particular channels - just wires and a bit of wood / plastic pipe
even better if it had some sort of a balun

Peter Rhea

Nobody can know what you need without information about the signal conditions at your particular location. If you're not willing to get this checked out professionally, you'll just have to buy or borrow an aerial of some kind & see what it picks up.

Capt'n Midnight

do i need the yagi antenna? or could i do without it?

it's the one on the picture on page one , less than one foot long , if you can find them

Krusty_Clown

watty wrote: »

€6 to €12 in a Bargain shop, anything remotely like

Can anyone suggest a bargain shop where this kind of indoor aerial can be purchased? I'm around 3kms from Threerock , so would like to try a cheap and cheerful option before I invest in more costly solutions. Thanks.

watty

Try a stripping about 15cm / 6" of the end of coax.
Leave on inner insulation.
Tape back outer braid back over the untouched outer insulation.

Plug other end into TV/Set box. Works as well as hoop or Rabbit's Ears aerial.

Works best on a window about 4"/10cm parallel to the frame on the glass. Try Vertical and Horizontal orientation.

jeltz

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm around 3kms from Threerock...

That close try putting a paperclip into the center ring of the socket and see if that works. It sometimes did with analogue!

Peter Rhea

I wouldn't come on here advising anyone to poke bare wire into anything, no matter your evaluation of any risk.

jeltz

The coaxial plug from a proper aerial that goes in to the socket is bare so it passes the signal through.

Peter Rhea

A coaxial plug is made to suit the socket. No part of it goes where it isn't intended to.