Eddie O'Sullivan - what do you think now?

ButtersSuki

Ok, let's have it....a proper discussion on EOS.

I didn't agree 100% with his sacking at the time, and I'm not a Kidney fan so I'm nailing my colours to the mast on both of those fronts.

I think he is technically the best coach we have ever produced and his win-loss record was infinitely superior to the incumbent's; and I can't honestly fathom how we as a small nation continue to ignore a man with his rugby brain.

I accept he has shall we say "political" issues with the IRFU, press and to a lesser degree the general public, but I can't for life of me figure out why EOS effectively got pushed out of his job and Kidney by comparison gets a free pass with a vastly inferior record. A bounce of a ball and dome unlucky injuries aside a d he'd likely still be coach IMO.

If there was a gun put to your head right now, who would you rather have as Irish coach - KIDNEY or EDDIE?

Could we start a poll mods?

.ak

I'll add a poll, although realistically I can't see this thread lasting long...

My 2c are that I think Eddie was/is a better coach than Kidney, however he failed to hold onto his spot due to similar failings of Kidney - unwavering to the idea of trying out new talent. That's probably an issue within the walls of the IRFU... In fairness he got a very long run as head coach, something most international coaches aren't afforded.

danthefan

Completely agreed with his sacking/quitting as Irish coach, it was absolutely time for him to go. He had Ireland playing better rugby than Kidney ever has but ultimately he won nothing.

Fireball07

Eddie was probably better than Kidney but at the same time, it was right that he was got rid of when he was. His time was up, he had taken us as far as he could imo...it's the same situation with Kidney now.

Fresh blood is good, things get stale.

irishbucsfan

I don't think it's even close. But that's me.

ButtersSuki

But would you take him back now over Kidney? I would in a heartbeat.

ButtersSuki

danthefan wrote: »

Completely agreed with his sacking/quitting as Irish coach, it was absolutely time for him to go. He had Ireland playing better rugby than Kidney ever has but ultimately he won nothing.

I agree on some levels; yes, at the time things had to change and the players were unsackable so Ediie had to go and his reluctance to use subs or bring in new players to the squad at times were blind spots but I would just love to know why Deccie can do whatever he wants with impunity.

Does anyone seriously believe we'd have shipped 60 to NZ under Eddie?

From the outside looking in, the players look like they've little or no belief in the system OR the coach, but the IRFU will no doubt keep their heads fine and pray things get better.

danthefan

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I agree on some levels; yes, at the time things had to change and the players were unsackable so Ediie had to go and his reluctance to use subs or bring in new players to the squad at times were blind spots but I would just love to know why Deccie can do whatever he wants with impunity.

Does anyone seriously believe we'd have shipped 60 to NZ under Eddie?

From the outside looking in, the players look like they've little or no belief in the system OR the coach, but the IRFU will no doubt keep their heads fine and pray things get better.

We got hockeyed pretty badly in Dublin by NZ under EOS, though we were missing both BOD and POC.

And people also seem to forget we've shipped 60 against NZ twice now under Kidney. We just scored a few points the other time.

thomond2006

Eddie's position was untenable by the end of the 2008 Six Nations. It's a cliché, but he had taken the team as far as he could.

Kidney should have been gone after the England game, since a heavy defeat at Twickenham was also the end of EOS.

captainshamroc

Around 06 played some rugby that was lovely to watch and had some great wins over SH teams at home(would have had a win in NZ as well if ROG could tackle). Brought Ireland a long way and was unlucky.

RWC 2007. Namibia and Georgia both outplaying us.
Should have been fired on the plane home.
Zero championships, zero wins in the SH, zero grand slams. Had much better players than Kidney but won nothing with them.

So the question is would you like to play well but be eternally second and win nothing or alternate between GS and wooden spoons(we're not that bad yet).

Sad thing is Kidneys tenure proved that we should never have an Irish coach again. The knives were out from day one and many people wanted him to fail.

Was EOS a better coach than Kidney? On balance I'd still have to say yes.

irishbucsfan

I think Kidney might be a limited coach but an excellent man manager while EOS was the opposite.

I think our standard of rugby under EOS varied wildly. Devastating from set pieces but a complete lack of originality and flair when we pushed into phase play at times. Still miles better than what we've seen since.

jamiedav2011

captainshamroc wrote: »

Around 06 played some rugby that was lovely to watch and had some great wins over SH teams at home(would have had a win in NZ as well if ROG could tackle). Brought Ireland a long way and was unlucky.

RWC 2007. Namibia and Georgia both outplaying us.
Should have been fired on the plane home.
Zero championships, zero wins in the SH, zero grand slams. Had much better players than Kidney but won nothing with them.

So the question is would you like to play well but be eternally second and win nothing or alternate between GS and wooden spoons(we're not that bad yet).

Sad thing is Kidneys tenure proved that we should never have an Irish coach again. The knives were out from day one and many people wanted him to fail.

Was EOS a better coach than Kidney? On balance I'd still have to say yes.

Really?

Swiwi

IMO was well & truly time to get rid of EOS. OK, Kidney hasn't lived up to expectations, but I hardly think that justifies a nostalgic look-back at EOS. Time for Ireland to get a new coach, Kidney would have got his marching orders long ago in NZ (although we are not at all tolerant of mediocrity, sometimes it goes too far to be honest, like the booing of John Hart which was a disgrace. But I digress...)

I mean some minnow country (?Georgia) just about knocked you guys off at 2007 under EOS if I remember correctly?

Morf

captainshamroc wrote: »

Had much better players than Kidney but won nothing with them.

England and France had much better teams too.

Not that I particularly agree either.

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

IMO was well & truly time to get rid of EOS. OK, Kidney hasn't lived up to expectations, but I hardly think that justifies a nostalgic look-back at EOS. Time for Ireland to get a new coach, Kidney would have got his marching orders long ago in NZ (although we are not at all tolerant of mediocrity, sometimes it goes too far to be honest, like the booing of John Hart which was a disgrace. But I digress...)

I mean some minnow country (?Georgia) just about knocked you guys off at 2007 under EOS if I remember correctly?

Would never have got near the job in NZ, if that's what you mean.

His style worked for a while with the team he had (Munster), the time he used it (pre-ELVs), and where he used it (Northern Hemisphere), but that wouldn't have cut it in NZ I don't think.

Quint2010

Tox56 wrote: »

Would never have got near the job in NZ, if that's what you mean.

His style worked for a while with the team he had (Munster), the time he used it (pre-ELVs), and where he used it (Northern Hemisphere), but that wouldn't have cut it in NZ I don't think.

EOS was a miles better coach than Kidney. He most more innovative and his teams played great rugby. But he messed up majorly around his relationship with the players and the 2007 WC was a disaster. Such a pity as I liked him and generally picked players on form.

Swiwi

Tox56 wrote: »

Would never have got near the job in NZ, if that's what you mean.

His style worked for a while with the team he had (Munster), the time he used it (pre-ELVs), and where he used it (Northern Hemisphere), but that wouldn't have cut it in NZ I don't think.

I think he deserved a shot as his coaching record with Munster was decent, but I couldn't believe it when the IRFU re-appointed him pre-2011 RWC, that was crazy. I think the NZ tour highlighted the problem with Kidney - 1 great game book-ended by 2 pastings. Lack of consistency and uber-conservative selection policy are his bugbears in my opinion.

danthefan

Swiwi wrote: »

I think he deserved a shot as his coaching record with Munster was decent, but I couldn't believe it when the IRFU re-appointed him pre-2011 RWC, that was crazy. I think the NZ tour highlighted the problem with Kidney - 1 great game book-ended by 2 pastings. Lack of consistency and uber-conservative selection policy are his bugbears in my opinion.

Most stark example: in the 2012 6N Kidney made ZERO unenforced changes to the team over the course of the entire tournament.

Quint2010

danthefan wrote: »

Most stark example: in the 2012 6N Kidney made ZERO unenforced changes to the team over the course of the entire tournament.

Good point. The worst and most glaring case of this policy being incorrect was after the Welsh match.

rpurfield

Swiwi wrote: »

I think he deserved a shot as his coaching record with Munster was decent, but I couldn't believe it when the IRFU re-appointed him pre-2011 RWC, that was crazy. I think the NZ tour highlighted the problem with Kidney - 1 great game book-ended by 2 pastings. Lack of consistency and uber-conservative selection policy are his bugbears in my opinion.

wholly agree with the bit ive put in bold.it was crazy to give him a cushion before the tournament.both men are good coaches but both failed to adopt to change and thats what finished eddie and should be whats finishing kidney.

errlloyd

I think only exceptional coaches should stay longer than 4 years. Long coaches are always a bit dodge. Then again I'll eat my words if Kidney wins a couple of GS and a world cup in the same way Woodward did.

captainshamroc

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Really?

Hickie, Horgan, BOD, D'Arcy, ROG, all in their prime. A pack that was used to bullying teams around Europe.
Full back is probably the only position in the backs that is better off now. D'Arcy hasn't had a good game in years and despite improvements we still don't trust Earls defence. Murray/Reddan ffs.
Our back row may look better now on paper but I've never seen them dominate an opposition like Best, Wallace and Leamy in 06 or as balanced as Easterbunny, Wallace and Leamy. POC and DOC in their prime. Flannery/Best vs. Best/Cronin although Best is probably better now because he has sorted out his throwing. Better props maybe but thats it.

One dropped restart vs. a penalty that falls short. They could have gone the other way and EOS would be the hero and DK would have never got his contract renewed. EOS was a better coach with better players but will always be a footnote in the stats while DK will get a staring role. Thats sports for you. Would I want EOS there now insead of DK? Not a hope, he had his chance and failed.

Cpt_Blackbeard

EOS is better technical coach, but he's not a shade on Kidney as a man-manager. We've had no consistency over the last 3 years, but we've still managed to pull out some top performances when needed. With some top technical coaches under him and in fresh surroundings, I'm sure Kidney could still bring success at the highest levels of the game; however I think a 2-3 year stint is the most any team should expect from him.

[Jackass]

The only success kidney ever enjoyed was off Eddie O'Sullivans team that he built over half a decade and was unquestionably lucky in the same way O'Sullivan was unlucky that we just missed grand slams on the majority of the years he was in charge.

Kidney's team that he built after Eddie's grand slam side is the worst team in Irish history, with our lowest ever ranking points and our worst defeat in the 100+ years of Irish rugby.

Quit simply, and I absolutely positively mean this, I would have done a better job than Kidney, without a single doubt in my mind. Mainly because I would have delogated to people who have a clue.

[edit to mention that O'Sullivan left about 1 season late though and he lost the dressing room after the world cup and should have stood down. Kidney is already about 3 seasons past as far as he can take the team, but has no dignity]

Fishooks12

[Jackass] wrote: »

The only success kidney ever enjoyed was off Eddie O'Sullivans team that he built over half a decade and was unquestionably lucky in the same way O'Sullivan was unlucky that we just missed grand slams on the majority of the years he was in charge.

Kidney's team that he built after Eddie's grand slam side is the worst team in Irish history, with our lowest ever ranking points and our worst defeat in the 100+ years of Irish rugby.

Quit simply, and I absolutely positively mean this, I would have done a better job than Kidney, without a single doubt in my mind. Mainly because I would have delogated to people who have a clue.

[edit to mention that O'Sullivan left about 1 season late though and he lost the dressing room after the world cup and should have stood down. Kidney is already about 3 seasons past as far as he can take the team, but has no dignity]

You obviously missed a few decades so

The three defeats to Italy were much worse than a mauling by the best team in the world

[Jackass]

Um, maybe you missed two defeats to Namibia which were worse than any defeats to Italy. Don't worry, I haven't missed a trick. I'm talking about the heaviest defeat in our nations history, bar none, over hundreds and hundreds of test matches.

Fishooks12

[Jackass] wrote: »

Um, maybe you missed two defeats to Namibia which were worse than any defeats to Italy. Don't worry, I haven't missed a trick. I'm talking about the heaviest defeat in our nations history, bar none, over hundreds and hundreds of test matches.

That's true, but heaviest defeat doesn't mean the blackest day in Irish rugby.

I can think of plenty worse. Nearly losing to Georgia under EOS springs to mind

Ciaran-Irl

captainshamroc wrote: »

Hickie, Horgan, BOD, D'Arcy, ROG, all in their prime. A pack that was used to bullying teams around Europe.
Full back is probably the only position in the backs that is better off now. D'Arcy hasn't had a good game in years and despite improvements we still don't trust Earls defence. Murray/Reddan ffs.
Our back row may look better now on paper but I've never seen them dominate an opposition like Best, Wallace and Leamy in 06 or as balanced as Easterbunny, Wallace and Leamy. POC and DOC in their prime. Flannery/Best vs. Best/Cronin although Best is probably better now because he has sorted out his throwing. Better props maybe but thats it.

One dropped restart vs. a penalty that falls short. They could have gone the other way and EOS would be the hero and DK would have never got his contract renewed. EOS was a better coach with better players but will always be a footnote in the stats while DK will get a staring role. Thats sports for you. Would I want EOS there now insead of DK? Not a hope, he had his chance and failed.

There is a lot of exaggeration and selective memory there to be honest. We have much better props now. Kearney is a better full back. O'Driscoll's best season ever was probably 09, so I don't see how he was better in 06. Our current back row are miles better. Heaslip is a far better number 8, and Ferris at his 09 best was immense. The 09 grand slam winning team's back row of Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip was absolutely better than Easterby, Wallace, Leamy. If you can't think of a match when they dominated a match, go watch us play Australia in the world cup again and look at Ferris carrying Will Genia across half the pitch. Re-watch the grand slam tapes as well! Bowe in the last few years is roughly the equal of Horgan over the first half of the decade.

I would say that the only places where the 06 team was better was Hickie, Stringer when he was at his best, and in the second row and at 12, when I would agree the same lads were better in their prime than they are now. We also have far, far better depth now than we had then. We had absolutely no depth whatsoever in most positions, but especially at out half.

EOS was a better coach and tactician. Kidney is a far better man manager and people person. EOS was unacceptably bad as handling players, and it was right to change coach after that horrendous world cup. Kidney isn't a good enough coach/tactician for this level, and it is time for him to go. It's hard to choose between them, but if I won the euromillions in the morning and bought a rugby club, and I had to choose one of the two as my director of rugby, I'd take Kidney.

rrpc

Eddie was a better coach technically than Kidney. However...

He pretty much wanted to run the whole show himself.
He had his favourites who never got dropped.
He very seldom brought new players in.
His coaching style was far too rigid and game plans never seemed to have a plan B.

He had to go, the team had started to stagnate long before he went.

Big Nelly

rrpc wrote: »

Eddie was a better coach technically than Kidney. However...

He pretty much wanted to run the whole show himself.
He had his favourites who never got dropped.
He very seldom brought new players in.
His coaching style was far too rigid and game plans never seemed to have a plan B.

He had to go, the team had started to stagnate long before he went.

I agree, but I think EOS should be brought back into Irish Rugby. Connacht is the best place as he lives just down the road. The problem with EOS was he took on too much which Kidney is doing the same. BOD would not make statements like he has without some feeling in the squad about it.

I know George Hook is mental at time but his idea of bringing in EOS for the backs wasnt the worst ever.

Swiwi

Big Nelly wrote: »

I agree, but I think EOS should be brought back into Irish Rugby. Connacht is the best place as he lives just down the road. The problem with EOS was he took on too much which Kidney is doing the same. BOD would not make statements like he has without some feeling in the squad about it.

I know George Hook is mental at time but his idea of bringing in EOS for the backs wasnt the worst ever.

Agree with that. He shouldn't remain some sort of cast-off Pariah in the Connacht wilderness. I'm sure he would have a lot to offer in some capacity.

CatFromHue

rrpc wrote: »

Eddie was a better coach technically than Kidney. However...

He pretty much wanted to run the whole show himself.
He had his favourites who never got dropped.
He very seldom brought new players in.
His coaching style was far too rigid and game plans never seemed to have a plan B.

He had to go, the team had started to stagnate long before he went.

You could say that Schmidt at Leinster want's the run the whole show himself.
His favourites tended to be our best players.
We didn't have the same depth in Irish rugby as we do now.

I genuinely don't understand the anger towards EOS to be honest. No, he wasn't a perfect coach and when he left it was time for him to leave but he certainly improved Irish rugby during his time in charge.

bilston

EOS had us playing better rugby but bar a few TCs won (nice as they were) nothing. He was unlucky in 2007 though in the 6Ns.

When EOS went it was the right call, however EOS left on the back of one bad season. Kidney has had three bad or inconsistent seasons now at our time when our provinces have completed dominated European rugby which suggests something is wrong with Ireland.

I wouldn't have EOS back but put it this way watching Ireland under O'Sullivan's regime was a damn sight better than it us now.

Bearcat

Kidney has outstayed his welcome....he brings nothing to the party for a joe soap supporter.

ray jay

Does anyone think EOS would take a subordinate position within the Ireland coaching set up? One which would let him use his technical coaching skills while allowing a head coach deal with the man management end of things.

Fishooks12

ray jay wrote: »

Does anyone think EOS would take a subordinate position within the Ireland coaching set up? One which would let him use his technical coaching skills while allowing a head coach deal with the man management end of things.

not a hope Wouldn't want it and I doubt he would either

irishbucsfan

I think the game has moved on a lot since the last time EOS was at a top gig.

Banbridgeman2

It was right for EOS to leave when he did but he was 10 times the coach that KIdney is. I have never seen a coach select undeniably with bias. It's tragic that if not for injuries there would probably only be 2 Ulster players starting in the Irish 15 in comparison to 6 Munster players despite Ulster being the form team in Europe and Munster playing dire stuff. POM over Henry, Zebo over Gilroy (last season), Murray over Marshall, ROG over Jackson, DOC over Touhy (last season), the likely exclusion of Cave at 13 in order to put Hurley at 15 and Earls at 13, Archer over Andreas. And that's just Ulster players (or former!) Leinster and Connacht fans can feel just as aggrieved. I want Kidney gone more than I wanted EOS gone and that's saying something

ButtersSuki

rrpc wrote: »

Eddie was a better coach technically than Kidney. However...

He pretty much wanted to run the whole show himself.
He had his favourites who never got dropped.
He very seldom brought new players in.
His coaching style was far too rigid and game plans never seemed to have a plan B.

He had to go, the team had started to stagnate long before he went.

What's funny about the above is you can justifiably level the same against
Kidney yet he's supposedly a much better man-manager. Go figure.

thebaz

i think Kidney poor standard as a top level international coach has made Eddie look better - for the quality of players available to both , i feal we could have punched a lot higher , then I have Roy Keane expectations in sport

EOS knew rugby. Didn't know people.

Kidney knows people. Not rugby.

Perhaps some sort of Eddie Kidney hybrid could be found?

EDIT: Actually no, we need a third element to be added! Someone who realises that there's a long term goal as well as a "next week" goal...

ButtersSuki

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

It was right for EOS to leave when he did but he was 10 times the coach that KIdney is. I have never seen a coach select undeniably with bias. It's tragic that if not for injuries there would probably only be 2 Ulster players starting in the Irish 15 in comparison to 6 Munster players despite Ulster being the form team in Europe and Munster playing dire stuff. POM over Henry, Zebo over Gilroy (last season), Murray over Marshall, ROG over Jackson, DOC over Touhy (last season), the likely exclusion of Cave at 13 in order to put Hurley at 15 and Earls at 13, Archer over Andreas. And that's just Ulster players (or former!) Leinster and Connacht fans can feel just as aggrieved. I want Kidney gone more than I wanted EOS gone and that's saying something

+1
I've posted on this before from a different perspective; namely, it seems that in Deccie's eyes the Munster player will always win a 50:50 (or in some cases 40:60 and beyond) call.

Yamanoto

ButtersSuki wrote: »

What's funny about the above is you can justifiably level the same against
Kidney yet he's supposedly a much better man-manager. Go figure.

EOS would never have recruited nor delegated to the likes of Kiss & Smal though. They'd have been viewed as threats to his fiefdom. Unfortunately our current coaching team appear less than the sum of their parts, though a shake-up is now thankfully inevitable.

I'd like to see Eddie back in some capacity, possibly at Connacht with a role at underage level with the National sides.

jacothelad

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

It was right for EOS to leave when he did but he was 10 times the coach that KIdney is. I have never seen a coach select undeniably with bias. It's tragic that if not for injuries there would probably only be 2 Ulster players starting in the Irish 15 in comparison to 6 Munster players despite Ulster being the form team in Europe and Munster playing dire stuff. POM over Henry, Zebo over Gilroy (last season), Murray over Marshall, ROG over Jackson, DOC over Touhy (last season), the likely exclusion of Cave at 13 in order to put Hurley at 15 and Earls at 13, Archer over Andreas. And that's just Ulster players (or former!) Leinster and Connacht fans can feel just as aggrieved. I want Kidney gone more than I wanted EOS gone and that's saying something

It is hard to argue with some of your points but as an Ulster supporter:-
I always felt that EOS got a bum deal - particularly from the press and especially from the I.T.'s tennis correspondent who stabbed him repeatedly in the back at every opportunity while having his head buried well up Deccie's fundamental orifice, excusing him again and again, year after year, loss after loss. O'Sullivan wasn't given any time to redress the minor problems that he had while Kidney has carte blanche to feck it up endlessly.

I agree that Henry is a marginally better player than POM - who has his own strengths. No one makes scarier faces at the opposition. I totally agree that the inclusion of Archer is a huge green, mucus laden spit in the face to others such as Andress who can actuall prop. Archer is about as useful at this level as a dung flavoured ice cream at a kiddies birthday party. I joked the other day about Archer playing o.k. against the awful Blues props and getting a boost into the Ireland squad. I never actually thought Kidney's provincial bias was ever going to stoop to this level. It is frankly shocking unless he is just a tackle bag - which is his level. FFS even Tony Buckley is a far better player.

As for scrum half, I would rather have Reddan or Boss over Marshall who, while he is very good at times and can be a startlingly good asset, at others he fecks up - like on Friday night butchering a ball that set up Embra for an undeserved try. I would rather have him than Murray but that is a no brainer. I think I'd rather have Marmion than Murray.

With regard to Jackson, he has played well but so have Keatley and Madigan. I don't think he has shown any more than either of those and they have been doing it for longer. Again, any of them is a no brainer over O'Gaga and I would probably plump for one of those guys until Jackson has a had half a season at least season behind him. If it became clear by February that Jackson was the leader of the pack then fair enough but I don't think that is clear at the moment.

DOC over Tuohy is also less clear cut than last season when O'C. was selected despite not being a starter for Munster. DOC has been o.k. this year and has started a lot of games in POC's absence. I might go for Tuohy simply because he is younger and a very mobile ball carrier and excellent as a line out option and is a powerful scrummager - so I am told. Actually, Lewis Stevenson has been outstanding this season and at 6'7" and 18st 5lbs or so is a big unit.

Earls over Cave at 13 is o.k. Earls is not a brilliant 13 but not awful. They offer different talents in that position. Cave is far more creative and a tough tackler and wins turnovers while Earls can run like sh1t off a shovel.

Zebo over Gilroy - not much in it and have you not noticed that Zebo is a starter while Gilroy has been behind Bowe and Trimble. Maybe he shouldn't be but he is. He has shown more that Bowe so far in his few appearances. He has been electric but so has Zebo.

If you look at the squad there are plenty of Ulster players and strangely I am happy if few start for Ireland. Fewer scape goats if they lose playing turgid and anachronistic rugby. Jackson. Marshall x2 and Henderson would all be better back at Ulster. They won't get in the match day squads and will simply pick up a lot of negativity there.

Fireball07

Jaco, most of what you say is fair enough, but I do think you're a bit unfair on Murray. Murray is not a bad player at all.

Banbridgeman2

Jaco, great post just 3 clarifications: I was referring to DOC over Touhy last season ditto for Zebo over Gilroy. As for Cave at 13 my argument is not that he won't put Cave at 13 over Earls but that he won't put Earls at 15 and Cave at 13. Instead we're going to see Hurley/Zebo/Jones at 15 i.e Munster lads. and Earls at 13

ButtersSuki

Yamanoto wrote: »

EOS would never have recruited nor delegated to the likes of Kiss & Smal though. They'd have been viewed as threats to his fiefdom. Unfortunately our current coaching team appear less than the sum of their parts, though a shake-up is now thankfully inevitable.

I'd like to see Eddie back in some capacity, possibly at Connacht with a role at underage level with the National sides.

He delegated pretty well I thought, esp. given the resources of the IRFU at the time. Eddie brought Mervyn Murphy in as video analyst, Mike Ford as defensive coach, Mike McGurn as the strength & conditioning coach, whilst Niall O'Donovan and Brain O'Brien were also involved.

McGurn and Ford certainly enhanced their own reputations and careers during their time with Ireland, given by all accounts a free reign under EOS.

jacothelad

Fireball07 wrote: »

Jaco, most of what you say is fair enough, but I do think you're a bit unfair on Murray. Murray is not a bad player at all.

I don't think Murray is bad, I just don't think he is an international standard 9. I will qualify that by adding - at the moment. He is naive in his play, takes the ball on at times as if he thinks he is SOB or FGerris and loses it, he is ponderous at times while at others (rarely) he is snappy and effective. Kidney has just about admitted that he selects him for his 'defence'. This is not a reason to pick a 9.

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

Jaco, great post just 3 clarifications: I was referring to DOC over Touhy last season ditto for Zebo over Gilroy. As for Cave at 13 my argument is not that he won't put Cave at 13 over Earls but that he won't put Earls at 15 and Cave at 13. Instead we're going to see Hurley/Zebo/Jones at 15 i.e Munster lads. and Earls at 13

I think Earls is a good full back but I am more interested in seeing how Noddy Jones gets on. He is a good attacking player. I like that. If that means 'Keet' at 13 then so be it. If Hurley gets selected, I'm not even going to watch it. Not because he is an awful player. Far from it but because he is not an international 15. Earls is. Noddy probably is.

ButtersSuki

jacothelad wrote: »

I don't think Murray is bad, I just don't think he is an international standard 9. I will qualify that by adding - at the moment. He is naive in his play, takes the ball on at times as if he thinks he is SOB or FGerris and loses it, he is ponderous at times while at others (rarely) he is snappy and effective. Kidney has just about admitted that he selects him for his 'defence'. This is not a reason to pick a 9.



I think Earls is a good full back but I am more interested in seeing how Noddy Jones gets on. He is a good attacking player. I like that. If that means 'Keet' at 13 then so be it. If Hurley gets selected, I'm not even going to watch it. Not because he is an awful player. Far from it but because he is not an international 15. Earls is. Noddy probably is.

The elephant in the room.....Earls seems pretty much undroppable under Deccie, regardless of form, mistakes, whether he's playing in or out of listings or not.

I await a shed load of abuse for stating the obvious there!

Banbridgeman2

Just saw on another thread that Kidney IS putting Zebo at 15! This is unbelievable stuff, has Zebo even played there this season? If we take the probable Kidney team it will be 1.Court 2.Strauss 3.Ross 4.Ryan 5.DOC 6.POM 7.Henry 8.Heaslip 9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Trimble 12.D'arcy 13Earls 14.Bowe 15.Zebo...... More Munster representation than Leinster and Ulster!! This is really becoming a joke.

ButtersSuki

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

Just saw on another thread that Kidney IS putting Zebo at 15! This is unbelievable stuff, has Zebo even played there this season? If we take the probable Kidney team it will be 1.Court 2.Strauss 3.Ross 4.Ryan 5.DOC 6.POM 7.Henry 8.Heaslip 9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Trimble 12.D'arcy 13Earls 14.Bowe 15.Zebo...... More Munster representation than Leinster and Ulster!! This is really becoming a joke.

Ah....WTF. Seriously?