Running Supplements

TrevorC

I thought it might be an interesting idea to see what supplements different people are using to help them run faster or run for longer or even both and their opinions on the different supplements they have tried in the past.

so far i have used

Kinetica fuel gels with caffeine : i find them very good.

Sponser carbo loader : i really dont know if it works or not.. but got no bad side effects from it.

clear thinking

Go faster stripes on clothing, food, water.

TrevorC

clear thinking wrote: »

Go faster stripes on clothing, food, water.

Good man, i bet your like speedy gonzales going around the place !

clear thinking

The stripes are good in photos, racing needs a bit more work

On a serious note im veggie so vit C & iron are crucial. Zinc also & vit B, Vit D in winter too.

wrstan

I'm not a big fan of supplements or energy drinks, but I definitely find electrolyte replacement tabs really help after a session or LSR. I use Nuun tablets, they're also very easy to take with you if you're travelling.

TrevorC

clear thinking wrote: »

The stripes are good in photos, racing needs a bit more work

On a serious note im veggie so vit C & iron are crucial. Zinc also & vit B, Vit D in winter too.

do you take vitamin capsules ?

TrevorC

wrstan wrote: »

I'm not a big fan of supplements or energy drinks, but I definitely find electrolyte replacement tabs really help after a session or LSR. I use Nuun tablets, they're also very easy to take with you if you're travelling.

Why not a fan of them ?

What have you tried or are you just not into them...?

wrstan

In the case of sports drinks, I think they are largely full of sugars that don't do you a lot of good, produced primarily by the large drinks manufacturers with big marketing budgets designed to persuade us that we need something that we actually don't. (Phew, glad I got that off my chest:D) I'm partly informed here by Tim Noakes and his recent views on carbohydrates. Seriously though, I think that the electrolyte replacement tabs give me all I need without the sugars.

In the case of supplements, my views are far less scientific and probably just based on a natural cynicism. I'm sure protein supplements may be good for you, but I have never felt any great benefit from them in terms or recovery or muscle development, so although I've tried them I don't have any great faith in them and I'm just as happy to train without them.

garhjw

I don't bother with supplements, either for running or resistance training. I find a balanced diet, plenty of water and set training schedules sufficient to help me run faster/longer.

wgtomblin

I use electrolyte replacement tablets for long run efforts, marthons.
And jelly babies!

I used to take sports drinks, but don't bother anymore. I just take water and haven't noticed any difference.

TrevorC

wrstan wrote: »

I think that the electrolyte replacement tabs give me all I need

Im gonna try out those electrolyte replacement tabs over the coming weeks..

ill post back here afterwards..

TrevorC

wgtomblin wrote: »

I use electrolyte replacement tablets for long run efforts, marthons.
And jelly babies!

I used to take sports drinks, but don't bother anymore. I just take water and haven't noticed any difference.

i like jelly babies (small original type)

im with you regarding water.. it does me fine !

mithril

TrevorC wrote: »

I thought it might be an interesting idea to see what xxx different people are using to help them run faster or run for longer or even both

If you asked someone to substitute a value for x, what do you think they might suggest?
What you are asking is entirely above board, but in my view the mentality of taking supplements to improve performance is the same one as a drug taker has adopted. The only difference is you are searching for the substance that will give you an edge - but for whatever reason - has not crossed the line to be banned.

To answer your question, there is not very much that is legal and is effective.
A constant intake of sugar (gel, sugary drink, gums) improves performance in endurance racing.
Caffeine also has been shown to improve performance. Its so commonly indulged in everyday life, that its not feasible to ban it.

There is little evidence that intake of electolytes improves performance or prevents cramps.

clear thinking

Healthy balanced diet is well and good if you have a maid who is also a dietician. In the real world supplements will cover up a defieiceny.

For runners Iron is probably the main vit/mineral that can cause a problem. No Iron = no oxygen = no run. Now unless you eat about 5 steaks a week and gargle seaweed the tablet is easier. Most other vitamins tend to be in fruit and / or laced on dodgy breakfast cerals and milk.

bo-sco

mithril wrote: »

If you asked someone to substitute a value for x, what do you think they might suggest?
What you are asking is entirely above board, but in my view the mentality of taking supplements to improve performance is the same one as a drug taker has adopted. The only difference is you are searching for the substance that will give you an edge - but for whatever reason - has not crossed the line to be banned.

To answer your question, there is not very much that is legal and is effective.
A constant intake of sugar (gel, sugary drink, gums) improves performance in endurance racing.
Caffeine also has been shown to improve performance. Its so commonly indulged in everyday life, that its not feasible to ban it.

There is little evidence that intake of electolytes improves performance or prevents cramps.

There is a significant difference between optimal nutrition and drug taking.

The reason there are banned substances isn't because taking supplements is wrong, it's because these particular substances are designed for specific medical reasons and are harmful to people's long term health if used outside of these.

If a drug had no side effects it wouldn't be on a banned list.

Krusty_Clown

clear thinking wrote: »

Healthy balanced diet is well and good if you have a maid who is also a dietician. In the real world supplements will cover up a defieiceny.

You're having a laugh? Eating a balanced diet is not difficult. People have been running faster marathons than you or I for 70 years, without the need for supplements. Leave out the Findus Crispy Pancakes and Mars bars and you'll be grand. Use unprocessed goods for your raw ingredients. If you are a vegetarian or vegan, pay particular attention to which vitamins you will be missing out on and make sure that you target food stuffs that contain those vitamins. In fact, if you are currently taking supplements, why not do the same? Figure out which vitamins you are supplementing and instead address these deficiencies in your shopping basket from the supermarket instead of the chemist.

myflipflops

clear thinking wrote: »

Healthy balanced diet is well and good if you have a maid who is also a dietician. In the real world supplements will cover up a defieiceny.

For runners Iron is probably the main vit/mineral that can cause a problem. No Iron = no oxygen = no run. Now unless you eat about 5 steaks a week and gargle seaweed the tablet is easier. Most other vitamins tend to be in fruit and / or laced on dodgy breakfast cerals and milk.

Below is a great post from Rolex (marathon runner and a doctor i believe) on iron supplements.

Personally I find it quicker, cheaper and better for my running to eat a healthy diet. It does not take long to grill chicken/kangaroo and then make a leafy salad with some pine nuts. Put a touch of balsamic over it and you have yourself a great meal.

Rolex_ wrote: »

The problem with commercial iron supplememts if they dont generally contain enough iron! If they did (being only slightly cynical here) their market audience wouldn't continue to purchase them because iron in high dose is hard to tolerate- it causes nausea and constipation. I would focus on eating lots of high iron content foods (dark green veg., dried fruit, red meat, nuts... amongst others). I'd still advise regular marathoners and very heavy mileage junkies to get their FBC and Ferritin done at least once a year. If Hb and/or ferritin are low high dose prescribed iron is needed really to get you race fit in a reasonable time frame.

rom

Was talking to my pharmacist and she said that some people take cod liver oil and a multivitamin. Can remember if its vit A or D but a person could be going over their RDA and it actually causes hardening of the liver.

Personally I used to take a lot of these things (stopped a year ago). If you need to take some sort of supplement then have your doctor decide it based on a test not some sales person in Holland and Barret or natures way etc who has done a course on how to push products. They are never going to tell you that you don't need something.

Krusty_Clown

myflipflops wrote: »

Below is a great post from Rolex (marathon runner and a doctor i believe) on iron supplements.

A great way to supplement your iron intake is actually to cook food in iron cookware. In particular, acidic foods like tomato-based pasta sauces and long cook stews/curries have high rates of iron transference. It is not an urban myth, however, you need to use appropriate iron cookware (should not be enameled (e.g. Le Creuset)). Certainnly worth buying and keeping one cast-iron pot in the house.

clear thinking

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You're having a laugh? Eating a balanced diet is not difficult. People have been running faster marathons than you or I for 70 years, without the need for supplements. Leave out the Findus Crispy Pancakes and Mars bars and you'll be grand. Use unprocessed goods for your raw ingredients. If you are a vegetarian or vegan, pay particular attention to which vitamins you will be missing out on and make sure that you target food stuffs that contain those vitamins. In fact, if you are currently taking supplements, why not do the same? Figure out which vitamins you are supplementing and instead address these deficiencies in your shopping basket from the supermarket instead of the chemist.

I eat a healthy balanced diet yet my iron is always low, to the point last year where i blew up in the marathon and in prior years missing training for weeks and months. Since i started popping the tabs last January the only issue i've had is a tender achilles from running faster and faster. Nothing wrong with the occasional mars bar either.

Maybe it's placebo, maybe not.

rom

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

A great way to supplement your iron intake is actually to cook food in iron cookware. In particular, acidic foods like tomato-based pasta sauces and long cook stews/curries have high rates of iron transference. It is not an urban myth, however, you need to use appropriate iron cookware (should not be enameled (e.g. Le Creuset)). Certainnly worth buying and keeping one cast-iron pot in the house.

You mean "Le Creuset" is good or bad. Have this one http://www.debenhams.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prod_10052_10001_331003903113CO29_-1

Sara2002

I've been taking well woman sport and fitness supplements since i started my marathon training. No idea if it's made a difference to me but I don't think it's any harm to have a good supplement when your doing a lot of training.

rom

Sara2002 wrote: »

I've been taking well woman sport and fitness supplements since i started my marathon training. No idea if it's made a difference to me but I don't think it's any harm to have a good supplement when your doing a lot of training.

Just wondering where you got this advise from ?

mithril

bo-sco wrote: »

There is a significant difference between optimal nutrition and drug taking.

The reason there are banned substances isn't because taking supplements is wrong, it's because these particular substances are designed for specific medical reasons and are harmful to people's long term health if used outside of these.

If a drug had no side effects it wouldn't be on a banned list.

I don't agree with you. The fact that most banned performance enhancing substances are also bad for your health is irrelevant.

They are banned because they give an unfair edge to a competitor using them versus someone who is not.

EauRouge79

NUUN hydration tabs, High 5 gels and GU jellies for me when racing long distance. Other than that a balanced diet.
Do many of you take joint supplements to look after the knees etc? If so, how often?

mithril

clear thinking wrote: »

Healthy balanced diet is well and good if you have a maid who is also a dietician. In the real world supplements will cover up a defieiceny.

For runners Iron is probably the main vit/mineral that can cause a problem. No Iron = no oxygen = no run. Now unless you eat about 5 steaks a week and gargle seaweed the tablet is easier. Most other vitamins tend to be in fruit and / or laced on dodgy breakfast cerals and milk.

Thre is no benefit to taking iron supplements unless you are suffering from anemia and there is some evidence that they are harmful.
I would only consider taking them under medical supervision after an iron test indicated that my iron level is depressed.

Krusty_Clown

rom wrote: »

You mean "Le Creuset" is good or bad. Have this one http://www.debenhams.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prod_10052_10001_331003903113CO29_-1

Nothing wrong with Le Creuset. I use one for cooking myself. But because it is enameled (the smooth shiny surface inside the dish) there won't be any transference of iron. Here are some findings from the Journal of the American Dietetic Association study in 1986, on the subject of iron transference when using iron cookware:

rom

As the topic is about supplements http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtFrXnvsOkI. Taking gels during a marathon is not a supplement.

In summary if you want to get better you have to eat a bit less and train a bit harder.

Sara2002

rom wrote: »

Just wondering where you got this advise from ?

What advice?

rom

Sara2002 wrote: »

What advice?

What made you buy that product above other on the market I mean. What influenced your decision ?

MrCreosote

If you need a supplement you either have an identifiable illness, or have some form of deviant eating problem like veganism. End of story.

Oregano_State

rom wrote: »

Was talking to my pharmacist and she said that some people take cod liver oil and a multivitamin. Can remember if its vit A or D but a person could be going over their RDA and it actually causes hardening of the liver.

Personally I used to take a lot of these things (stopped a year ago). If you need to take some sort of supplement then have your doctor decide it based on a test not some sales person in Holland and Barret or natures way etc who has done a course on how to push products. They are never going to tell you that you don't need something.

Vitamin A in higher than reccommended doses is toxic and causes liver damage. There's vitamin A in cod liver oil but you can buy fish oil with the Vitamin A removed if you want to get your omega 3's in high doses without damaging your liver!

Oregano_State

MrCreosote wrote: »

If you need a supplement you either have an identifiable illness, or have some form of deviant eating problem like veganism. End of story.

There's also something to be said for the placebo effect you can get from taking percieved 'healthy supplements'.

It's not insignificant!

Clum

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Nothing wrong with Le Creuset. I use one for cooking myself. But because it is enameled (the smooth shiny surface inside the dish) there won't be any transference of iron.

Krusty, do you also have a non-enameled iron pot as well as your Le Creuset?

Before I saw this post I thought a pot was a pot and that was it but having done some quick fire research I now see that there are aluminium, cast iron, stainless steel, various coated types of pots, etc....and I couldn't tell you what sort of category my pots at home fall in to. They're black. Is that a category?

Where do I get one of these iron-transferring cast iron pots or how do I identify them? (by the way, quick research in to iron-transference returned many links to sites about sticking pictures to t-shirts! That won't help my iron intake.)

Thanks.

Krusty_Clown

Clum wrote: »

They're black. Is that a category?

Nope, black is a colour.

I do have a cast iron griddle and a cast iron wok, but in both cases, because the foodstuffs would not be in contact with the pans for very long, iron transfer would be minimal. We haven't had any issues with anemia in our household, but if we did, I'd probably pick up a cast iron skillet, like this one and cook a couple of times a week with it. As mentioned previously, it can't be enameled, or have a non-stick (e.g. Teflon) surface. These cooking utensils can be a bit of a pain, as like a good wok, you don't wash it with soap/detergent, and need to season them frequently. You should be able to pick them up in any large department store (or the likes of TX Maxx), just read the descriptions carefully.

ultraman1

kc ,,,can u bring ur iron pan with u to the next race ,,we can all have a lick and boost our iron on the warm up...

Sara2002

rom wrote: »

What made you buy that product above other on the market I mean. What influenced your decision ?

To be honest this is the only brand of this product I have seen. No major thought went into buying it. I wanted a supplement, I was training for a marathon and this is marketed as "to help maintain optimum energy release & performance for gym & active life". Also the fact its specifically for woman probably swayed me

DogSlySmile

I dont know if mulitivitamins work or dont work (I've never felt a difference when I take/do not take them), but I take them every day based on what a doctor once told me.

I had to have a blood test a few years ago and when the doctor was explaining the results she said the following:

Doctor: Your Vitamin A levels are perfect. Your iron levels are perfect. Your white/red blood cell count is perfect. Your vitamin % levels are perfect etc etc etc (you get the picture).

Doctor: Do you take a multivitamin?

Me: Yea, everyday.

Doctor: Well keep taking them because they are clearly working for you.

And I have. Maybe my blood would have been fine anyway without the multivit? But I dont know, so I'm happy enough to continue taking them based on what the doctor told me. BTW, I only ever take the cheapo Tesco multivit :pac:

TrevorC

Oregano_State wrote: »

There's also something to be said for the placebo effect you can get from taking percieved 'healthy supplements'.

It's not insignificant!

+1

i totally agree with you on this !

tunguska

Read "The Okinawa way" a few years back and as a result I take chlorella, astaxanthin and matcha green tea. Chlorella because it has the full range of vitamins, minerals and amino acids but also because it binds to toxins and flushes them out of the body. Astaxathin because its a very strong antioxitant. Ditto for match green tea, has one of the highest ORAC values there is. I drink beetroot juice and coconut water aswell.

woodchopper

The idea of supplements is to supplement an athletes training! I think this sometimes gets lost in translation. There is little benefit to supplements if an athlete does stupid things in training that seriously effects the outcome of their athletic performance. Once an athlete gets this in order they can then think of these minor percenters to improve training/ racing outcomes.

mithril

woodchopper wrote: »

The idea of supplements is to supplement an athletes training! I think this sometimes gets lost in translation. There is little benefit to supplements if an athlete does stupid things in training that seriously effects the outcome of their athletic performance. Once an athlete gets this in order they can then think of these minor percenters to improve training/ racing outcomes.

That's largely my viewpoint as well. If you are looking for an extra edge, I think you are generally better off losing weight. There is a point at which the curve turns and muscle wastage compensates for the reduction in load, but very few runners are anywhere near this.
A large part of the problem is that the nutritional section of book-shops are dominated by charlatans who are pushing commercial "nutritional" products under the guise of offering impartial advice. The body is a holistic system, and there is a huge gap between an isolated lab test that indicates that say iron supplements increase oxygen absorption, and a conclusion that taking a supplement will increase athletic performance or improve general health. I recommend Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science" where the abuses of nutritional studies are well covered.

A bit off topic, I tracked down a copy of an article in an American magazine "Outside" which I read a few years ago where a cyclist went on 6 common diets (1.Abs 2. Paleo 3. Mediterranean 4. Okinawa 5. Nutritionist 6. USDA Pyramid), had detailed medical checks taken, (HDL, body-fat, triglycerides, cholesterol, LDL:HSL ratio), and subjectively recorded his impression of the effect of each diet on performance and general health. A sample size of 1, and the fact that he only did each diet for 6 weeks means you can only draw very weak conclusions, but I found it interesting e.g. he felt always hungry on the paleo diet, while his cholesterol soared on the Okinawa diet.
I will scan it in and send it on to anyone interested.

vigos

mithril wrote: »

A bit off topic, I tracked down a copy of an article in an American magazine "Outside" which I read a few years ago where a cyclist went on 6 common diets (1.Abs 2. Paleo 3. Mediterranean 4. Okinawa 5. Nutritionist 6. USDA Pyramid), had detailed medical checks taken, (HDL, body-fat, triglycerides, cholesterol, LDL:HSL ratio), and subjectively recorded his impression of the effect of each diet on performance and general health. A sample size of 1, and the fact that he only did each diet for 6 weeks means you can only draw very weak conclusions, but I found it interesting e.g. he felt always hungry on the paleo diet, while his cholesterol soared on the Okinawa diet.
I will scan it in and send it on to anyone interested.

found this article online incase anyone is interested in reading

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/nutrition/Man-vs--Food.html

wrstan

Just read this article in last July's Running Times:
http://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition-runners/magill-masters-produce-over-pills

I like this excerpt:

Many Americans mistakenly believe that supplements pass rigorous government testing before being released to health food stores and supermarket shelves. Not true. .... But there's a better reason to avoid supplements: Most don't work.

BenMicheal

MrCreosote wrote: »

If you need a supplement you either have an identifiable illness, or have some form of deviant eating problem like veganism. End of story.

That’s a ridiculous comment.

Put it into context, My Da and I by and large eat the samegeneral foods and have a balanced diet. He goes to work, sits at a desk andgoes for a walk in the evening. I go to work sit at a desk run a few miles 3-5times a week as well as going to the gym on average 4 times a week doing anhour or so of resistance training.

Compare both individual days. On a general during my day Iburn a lot more calories than my dad. Calories are made up Carbs Protein andFat and so I’m burning more Protein Fat and Carbs than him. Factor in the roleof Carbs and Protein in Muscle repair, Salt and electrolytes lost through sweatetc and my body needs soon increase.

This is where supplements come in, to repair the body fundamentallyneeds protein. I take a protein shake to fill the gap. Each scoop consists of25g of protein of which I take 2-3 during exercise days. To get the equalamount I would have to eat 4 chicken breasts or 3 Steaks or 9 eggs. Now to doso would be very expensive (a chicken breast is about 1 euro 1 scoop is about35c) and also counterproductive as to eat 9 eggs or 3 steaks a day would resultin huge amounts of cholesterol been taken into the body.

No doubt protein from the land or animal is better than wheyprotein (whey is a dairy bi-product by the way – remember the story aboutlittle Miss Muffit who sat on her tuffit eating her curds and………) but in some cases,for reasons above, it is the smarter option.

TFBubendorfer

BenMicheal wrote: »

That’s a ridiculous comment.

Just when I thought nobody was going to swallow the bait ...

MrCreosote

BenMicheal wrote: »

That’s a ridiculous comment.

Put it into context, My Da and I by and large eat the samegeneral foods and have a balanced diet. He goes to work, sits at a desk andgoes for a walk in the evening. I go to work sit at a desk run a few miles 3-5times a week as well as going to the gym on average 4 times a week doing anhour or so of resistance training.

Compare both individual days. On a general during my day Iburn a lot more calories than my dad. Calories are made up Carbs Protein andFat and so I’m burning more Protein Fat and Carbs than him. Factor in the roleof Carbs and Protein in Muscle repair, Salt and electrolytes lost through sweatetc and my body needs soon increase.

This is where supplements come in, to repair the body fundamentallyneeds protein. I take a protein shake to fill the gap. Each scoop consists of25g of protein of which I take 2-3 during exercise days. To get the equalamount I would have to eat 4 chicken breasts or 3 Steaks or 9 eggs. Now to doso would be very expensive (a chicken breast is about 1 euro 1 scoop is about35c) and also counterproductive as to eat 9 eggs or 3 steaks a day would resultin huge amounts of cholesterol been taken into the body.

No doubt protein from the land or animal is better than wheyprotein (whey is a dairy bi-product by the way – remember the story aboutlittle Miss Muffit who sat on her tuffit eating her curds and………) but in some cases,for reasons above, it is the smarter option.

Whey protein is just a food, no matter how many "MAXXX POWERZ" they put on the label. You might need more nutrients than your father, but you can get all these through good ol'fashioned food. No need for salt tabs or iron replacement or whatever else.

Sounds like you're eating way too much protein too- even elite athletes doing heavy resistance work only need 2g/kg/day.

endswell

MrCreosote wrote: »

Whey protein is just a food, no matter how many "MAXXX POWERZ" they put on the label. You might need more nutrients than your father, but you can get all these through good ol'fashioned food. No need for salt tabs or iron replacement or whatever else.

Sounds like you're eating way too much protein too- even elite athletes doing heavy resistance work only need 2g/kg/day.

what food should he be eating instead? what quantities?

MrCreosote

endswell wrote: »

what food should he be eating instead? what quantities?

I don't know his overall diet and I'm not a dietician, and it would depend a lot on his weight and training plan. Just saying that the amount of protein most people take is excessive. Not that this is a particularly bad thing- your body will process it just fine, but it's pretty expensive.

rom

Basically as Tim Noakes says that any of these calorie rich supplements will stop people losing weight. Consider them if you are at the correct race weight. If not then losing weight will have much more benefit and is much cheaper. People don't like to hear that cause they like they like the magic solution.

Sorry but really unless people are saying you need to gain weight then you need to lose weight in relation to running simply. And it is only then that supplements may be of benefit.

If your BMI is over 25, then lose weight as things like protein will just slow that all down. My BMI has gone from 30 ish to under 24 over the last 2 ish years. Lose the weight first and think about supplement when you are correct race weight.

endswell

MrCreosote wrote: »

I don't know his overall diet and I'm not a dietician, and it would depend a lot on his weight and training plan. Just saying that the amount of protein most people take is excessive. Not that this is a particularly bad thing- your body will process it just fine, but it's pretty expensive.

its ideal to get protein into system as soon as possible after training. 25g is the handiest way, it can be done right after. a protein shake in the morning is also ideal if you want to get protein in to you, unless you want to eat 9 eggs. it's all well and good criticising someone's protein use but you have to understand it's not possible to get that amount of food protein into you on a work day, on any day! go over to the health and fitness forum and see what some over there say (theres way more discussion on this as well as people in the know e.g. transform). i think all will agree, as do I, that real food is the best source of protein. it's just too difficult to manage that everyday.