A few GAA referee conundrums

Squareball2010

daniels.ducks wrote: »

Another one for ye. Goalkeeper catches the ball in the square and sees a few attackers running straight for him. He reverses out over the end-line to avoid losing the ball. Penalty or 45/65? Taking into goes from the square over the endline.

Same kind of situation as when a goalkeeper is in possession in the square and runs along the endline. While he is still in the square he handpasses the ball over a attackers head and then leaves the field to go around them to regain posession. Penalty?

First one is a 45/65. Never a question of a penalty in my eyes...same as player being pushed out over endline as someone said

Second one is interesting. It is a technical foul: 4.34 'To delierately go outside the boundary lines to gain an advantage'. I would imagine it would be a free from the 13m line opposite where the keeper crossed the endline. I certainly wouldn't be awarding a penalty anyway because when you think of it the foul actually happens 'outside' the small square albeit off the pitch!

daniels.ducks

Squareball2010 wrote: »

First one is a 45/65. Never a question of a penalty in my eyes...same as player being pushed out over endline as someone said

Second one is interesting. It is a technical foul: 4.34 'To delierately go outside the boundary lines to gain an advantage'. I would imagine it would be a free from the 13m line opposite where the keeper crossed the endline. I certainly wouldn't be awarding a penalty anyway because when you think of it the foul actually happens 'outside' the small square albeit off the pitch!

If this happened on the sideline the free would have to be taken on the field. I'd award a penalty. I'd say the foul happened on the field in that case. Asked an assessor there a while back and he wasn't sure.

daniels.ducks

stetyrrell wrote: »

Neither of them are anywhere close to a penalty. The first one, it's no different than if a player gets pushed out over the endline, 65. The second one, there's no rule that says a player can't step out over the line when he's not in possession. I can't imagine any sane ref giving a penalty for either of those situations.

The second one actually is a foul in any case. To cross the boundary line to gain an advantage.

Squareball2010

daniels.ducks wrote: »

If this happened on the sideline the free would have to be taken on the field. I'd award a penalty. I'd say the foul happened on the field in that case. Asked an assessor there a while back and he wasn't sure.

Yeah wouldn't like to have to come across this personally as it could be quite a contentious one. Knowing many referees around my area I can't think of one who wouldn't just wave play on to (a) avoid controversy or (b) as they probably don't know/enforce the rule.

Much more likely I'm guessing to see this around the sideline area though and you could see a free easily being awarded for that. It's like in soccer if you look at the Premier League - many fouls are called around the middle of the pitch or outside the area such as pushing or on the back of a player/shirt pulling yet in the penalty area it is often just largely ignored!

theoneeyedman

daniels.ducks wrote: »

If this happened on the sideline the free would have to be taken on the field. I'd award a penalty. I'd say the foul happened on the field in that case. Asked an assessor there a while back and he wasn't sure.

Methinks if you are giving penalties for the likes of this, it won't be long before there is the boot of a car with your name on it :-P

Squidgy Black

Probably a good thing I'm not a ref then! :pac:

LeoB

Brilliant thread. Well done the op. Not time to go through everything but

Incident #1:

The ball strikes a defender hits the corner flag and goes out over the end line. Decision?

Line ball If ball hits and flag its a lineball

LeoB

Squareball2010 wrote: »

First one is a 45/65. Never a question of a penalty in my eyes...same as player being pushed out over endline as someone said

Second one is interesting. It is a technical foul: 4.34 'To delierately go outside the boundary lines to gain an advantage'. I would imagine it would be a free from the 13m line opposite where the keeper crossed the endline. I certainly wouldn't be awarding a penalty anyway because when you think of it the foul actually happens 'outside' the small square albeit off the pitch!

First one clear cut 45/65

Second one?? If he is being tackled I would say he can go outside the line. This often happens along the sideline where the only option is to run straight into the player in front of you. The rule 4.34 is this not aimed at lads standing outside the end line when a 45 is being taken and they want to get a run on the defender?

Squareball2010

3 more I just thought of:

(a) A goalkeeper taking a puck out advances a few yards outside his small square before pucking the ball. Your umpire signals this to you - what is the decision?
-65
-Throw in on the 20m line
-Wave play on

(b) A player is running through on goal, gets inside the large rectangle and is hit with a fair and fully square on shoulder knocking him to the ground. He retains possession of the football while getting back on his knees. Close enough to the goal and with no support, surrounded by defenders he attempts a fist passed point but doesn't get enough power in it and the ball loops over the keeper and into the net. What is your decision?

(c) A defender under pressure right in front of the goal after fielding a high ball (from a 45) from under his crossbar panics and heads back across his own goal (cardinal sin). He is met with a strong but fair challenge and unfortunately carries the ball over his own goal line. Decision?

DDC1990

a) 65. This happened in the controversial u21 Munster final afew years back, game was level (i think), Clare goalie stepped out of the square, Umpire signalled. Tipp got a 65 pointed it and won the game.

b) Kickout, no goal as long as there was no touch.

c) Goal.

rebel girl 15

Squareball2010 wrote: »

3 more I just thought of:

(a) A goalkeeper taking a puck out advances a few yards outside his small square before pucking the ball. Your umpire signals this to you - what is the decision?
-65
-Throw in on the 20m line
-Wave play on

I have a very strong feeling that this rule was changed at congress I'm sure - it was as DDC put it until last year, but now if a goalkeeper comes outside of his small rectangle, the referee throws it in on the 20m line - came as a direct result of the siton by the Clare supporters after the game

(b) A player is running through on goal, gets inside the large rectangle and is hit with a fair and fully square on shoulder knocking him to the ground. He retains possession of the football while getting back on his knees. Close enough to the goal and with no support, surrounded by defenders he attempts a fist passed point but doesn't get enough power in it and the ball loops over the keeper and into the net. What is your decision?

Free kick from where the player was when he struck the ball

(c) A defender under pressure right in front of the goal after fielding a high ball (from a 45) from under his crossbar panics and heads back across his own goal (cardinal sin). He is met with a strong but fair challenge and unfortunately carries the ball over his own goal line. Decision?

Goal awarded as the defender played the ball through the scoring space

antoobrien

Referee incorrectly records a score for Team A as being scored by Team B. Two minutes into injury time Team B is awarded a free, player asks what's the score. Player told score is A 1-12 B 0-14 (instead of 1-13 to 0-13) and takes the point. One minute later another free given to team B, takes the point. Referee records the final score as Team 1-12 Team B 0-16 instead of Team A 1-13 to Team B 0-16.

What should happen?

daniels.ducks

antoobrien wrote: »

Referee incorrectly records a score for Team A as being scored by Team B. Two minutes into injury time Team B is awarded a free, player asks what's the score. Player told score is A 1-12 B 0-14 (instead of 1-13 to 0-13) and takes the point. One minute later another free given to team B, takes the point. Referee records the final score as Team 1-12 Team B 0-16 instead of Team A 1-13 to Team B 0-16.

What should happen?

Well if the referee admits to being wrong he goes to the governing body to leave them make a decision.
If the losing team starts to give out they go to the governing body to let them decide.
Either way it will probably end in a replay.

fearruanua

daniels.ducks wrote: »

Well if the referee admits to being wrong he goes to the governing body to leave them make a decision.
If the losing team starts to give out they go to the governing body to let them decide.
Either way it will probably end in a replay.

this happened in galway last weekend. junior A championship hurling between cashel and portumna. cashel actually won the game by a point but the referee had it that portumna won by a point. he must have marked down a cashel point for portumna by mistake hence the two point swing.
the match is replayed this weekend again. yer thoughts???

Mountainlad

How come a techniacal foul inside the small square is a penalty in football, but only a 21 in Hurling? I've seen it happen and I juist don't get why the rules have that distinction.

antoobrien

Mountainlad wrote: »

How come a techniacal foul inside the small square is a penalty in football, but only a 21 in Hurling? I've seen it happen and I juist don't get why the rules have that distinction.

There's a minor difference between the two rules - any technical foul (by the defence) in hurling inside the large rectangle is a 21, whereas the football rule specifies that any defensive foul inside the small rectangle is a penalty, in the rest of the large rectangle its a 13m free.

Squareball2010

antoobrien wrote: »

Referee incorrectly records a score for Team A as being scored by Team B. Two minutes into injury time Team B is awarded a free, player asks what's the score. Player told score is A 1-12 B 0-14 (instead of 1-13 to 0-13) and takes the point. One minute later another free given to team B, takes the point. Referee records the final score as Team 1-12 Team B 0-16 instead of Team A 1-13 to Team B 0-16.

What should happen?

As long as the referee admits his error and reports that to the board you'd imagine a replay would be awarded. Seems only logical thing to do really as was the case in 2010 when the referee incorrectly allowed Joe Sheridans goal for Meath to pip Louth for the Leinster football title. Should have been a replay there too but this is a slightly different case. Common sense should prevail btu you could see how it could happen!

Squareball2010

Mountainlad wrote: »

How come a techniacal foul inside the small square is a penalty in football, but only a 21 in Hurling? I've seen it happen and I juist don't get why the rules have that distinction.

This is a great question. I used to always wonder this before also but it is one of the few minor rule differences between hurling and football as the previous poster mentioned. ANY foul inside the small square is a penalty in football i.e. any technical or aggressive foul results in a peno being awarded or at least should! Hurling then any technical foul inside the small square is a 20m free taken centre of the goals. It is treated the same way as any technical foul inside the large square in both hurling and football. If you think back to the drawn AI Final this year b/t Galway and KK, the referee awarded a 20m free centre of the goals when James Skehill was adjudged to have lay on the ball after making a save. Technical foul in the small square so 20m free.

antoobrien

Squareball2010 wrote: »

As long as the referee admits his error and reports that to the board you'd imagine a replay would be awarded. Seems only logical thing to do really as was the case in 2010 when the referee incorrectly allowed Joe Sheridans goal for Meath to pip Louth for the Leinster football title. Should have been a replay there too but this is a slightly different case. Common sense should prevail btu you could see how it could happen!

The difference between the two cases being that the allowance/failure to allow a score is not grounds for an objection, whereas recording the score incorrectly is.

Squareball2010

Just thought of one that happened myself in an underage football game this year which luckily had no bearing on the result. It is kind of a variation of antoobrien's earlier one with the referee giving the score to the wrong team. (Apologies if this is a bit long winded)

As the game is u12 - a smaller pitch is in operation with the smaller set of juvenile goals being used(a nightmare for referees and umpires alike trust me)!

Within the opening minutes a player takes a shot from out on the wing which is a high lobbing ball. The ball appears to just go over the crossbar for a point and looks to me to rest on the back of the net. I award and signal the point and the game continues without any debate or contention. The ball had in fact lobbed over the keepers head and under the crossbar for a goal or so I was told. Looking back (pardon the pun) it probably was the case.

At HT after giving both sides the scoreline I think it was 1-3 to 0-4 or something I was approached by that players father who was actually standing behind that goal at the time but hadn't signalled anything for that goal. He just politely asked me if I had mistakenly given the goal as a point. Thinking back to the incident I replied yes as I was convinced it had indeed gone over the bar and rested on the back of the net. He informed me it had actually been a goal and had asked his son and all was it a goal to which he had replied it was. An awkward situation to be in lets just say.

What would you do in this instance given it is HT and you admit you may actually have been mistaken?

antoobrien

Squareball2010 wrote: »

Just thought of one that happened myself in an underage football game this year which luckily had no bearing on the result. It is kind of a variation of antoobrien's earlier one with the referee giving the score to the wrong team. (Apologies if this is a bit long winded)

As the game is u12 - a smaller pitch is in operation with the smaller set of juvenile goals being used(a nightmare for referees and umpires alike trust me)!

Within the opening minutes a player takes a shot from out on the wing which is a high lobbing ball. The ball appears to just go over the crossbar for a point and looks to me to rest on the back of the net. I award and signal the point and the game continues without any debate or contention. The ball had in fact lobbed over the keepers head and under the crossbar for a goal or so I was told. Looking back (pardon the pun) it probably was the case.

At HT after giving both sides the scoreline I think it was 1-3 to 0-4 or something I was approached by that players father who was actually standing behind that goal at the time but hadn't signalled anything for that goal. He just politely asked me if I had mistakenly given the goal as a point. Thinking back to the incident I replied yes as I was convinced it had indeed gone over the bar and rested on the back of the net. He informed me it had actually been a goal and had asked his son and all was it a goal to which he had replied it was. An awkward situation to be in lets just say.

What would you do in this instance given it is HT and you admit you may actually have been mistaken?

It's a tough one, but I've often been at adult level matches where there's no scoreboard and asked the ref confirm the score at half time so the our team know the score. It's never happened that we've had a case where we have a a different score at half time (when I asked), so I'm not sure how to proceed.

If you are happy that it's a goal, talk to the teams involved and amend the score and let everybody know the score you have. In the even of no scoreboard being in operation, talking to somebody from each team to ensure they have the score is something I'd try to do as a matter of courtesy if I was a ref.

fearruanua

I was playing a league football match recently and we conceded a late penalty. let's just say that i wasn't very happy with the decision and let the referee know exactly how I felt. No, he didn't book me, he proceeded to move the penalty in another 2/3 metres for dissent!! how the lad missed it i will never know. he couldn't have been more than 6/7 metres from the goal line.

Squareball2010

It's been a while but seeing as the GAA season has kicked off again heres a few more teasers:-

#1 2 players both chase after a loose ball down the wing. Player A is faster to the ball and goes to bend down to put the toe under it to pick it up. As he does this Player B arrives and hits A square on (the shoulder) with a shoulder charge. Decision?

#2 After allowing an earlier advantage, the attacking player (from Team A) is fouled again a number of seconds later so you award a free to Team A. After awarding the free, the player fouled remonstrates with you and gives a barrage of abuse for a) not blowing for a free earlier and b) deciding to take no further action against the player fouling. Decision? Should the free in stand?

#3 With the game in the melting pot and minutes left on the clock the ball goes out over the sideline. A player from Team A (trailing by 2 points) races over to retrieve the ball which has been gathered by a substitute from Team B. Incidentally the sub holds onto the ball and refuses to hand it over to Team A. Both players end up tussling over the ball and strike each other while others enter the fray as a fracas develops (nothing much just handbags) After calm is restored...your decision?

antoobrien

Squareball2010 wrote: »

It's been a while but seeing as the GAA season has kicked off again heres a few more teasers:-

#1 2 players both chase after a loose ball down the wing. Player A is faster to the ball and goes to bend down to put the toe under it to pick it up. As he does this Player B arrives and hits A square on (the shoulder) with a shoulder charge. Decision?

Depends on two things:
Is player A in possession of the ball -if he doesn't have hands on the ball it's a free.
Does player B have at least 1 foot on the ground - if he jumps in, it's a free.
Otherwise play on.

Squareball2010 wrote: »

#2 After allowing an earlier advantage, the attacking player (from Team A) is fouled again a number of seconds later so you award a free to Team A. After awarding the free, the player fouled remonstrates with you and gives a barrage of abuse for a) not blowing for a free earlier and b) deciding to take no further action against the player fouling. Decision? Should the free in stand?

Depends on the severity of the "abuse" - if the remonstration is severe enough to warrant the term abuse, throw in and book the pup.

Squareball2010 wrote: »

#3 With the game in the melting pot and minutes left on the clock the ball goes out over the sideline. A player from Team A (trailing by 2 points) races over to retrieve the ball which has been gathered by a substitute from Team B. Incidentally the sub holds onto the ball and refuses to hand it over to Team A. Both players end up tussling over the ball and strike each other while others enter the fray as a fracas develops (nothing much just handbags) After calm is restored...your decision?

Line ball stands, 2 red cards for striking and also look for the 3rd man in for a red.

It means that that sub can't be used for the remainder of the game by Team B and will get a ban, however I don't think they lose a man off the pitch, where Team A will.

davegrohl48

#1 Player goes to kick a ball on the ground as a player on his own team goes to pick it up. Decision?
- I'v never seen it given as a free? What are rules on fouling your own teammates?

#2 Further extension. Player injures a player on his own team by making contact with him when attempting to kick the ball on the ground when that player was in the act of picking the ball up?

Pretty sure a few will know the game and the famous player this occured with. Was horrible incident but I believe a good call by the ref. Think it was a yellow card for the reckless kick at the ball on the ground and in that case doesn't matter that it was team mate. That rule is there to prevent injury.
I think the ball was thrown up after? The injury had stopped play and then a throw in is what is required.

DDC1990

davegrohl48 wrote: »

#1 Player goes to kick a ball on the ground as a player on his own team goes to pick it up. Decision?
- I'v never seen it given as a free? What are rules on fouling your own teammates?

#2 Further extension. Player injures a player on his own team by making contact with him when attempting to kick the ball on the ground when that player was in the act of picking the ball up?

Pretty sure a few will know the game and the famous player this occured with. Was horrible incident but I believe a good call by the ref. Think it was a yellow card for the reckless kick at the ball on the ground and in that case doesn't matter that it was team mate. That rule is there to prevent injury.
I think the ball was thrown up after? The injury had stopped play and then a throw in is what is required.

? The famous incident.

Its hardly the Maurice Fitz incident?

Because there was no free called or yellow card. The ref waved play on, for about 10 seconds, and then stopped play because Billy told him it was broken. Then it was a hopped ball because the ref stopped play.

If you are talking about another incident... carry on :O :P

Squareball2010

antoobrien wrote: »

Depends on two things:
Is player A in possession of the ball -if he doesn't have hands on the ball it's a free.
Does player B have at least 1 foot on the ground - if he jumps in, it's a free.
Otherwise play on.
How is it a free if player A doesn't have the ball in his hands i.e. possession of the ball? It shouldn't matter as a shoulder (fair) charge is within the rules when a player, having at least 1 foot as you say on the ground, is (a) in possession of the ball or (b) when both players are moving in the direction of the ball to play it. In either case whether A is just about to attempt to pick it up or is just after doing so...if its a shoulder charge its fair and play away. Very rarely see it though...90% of the time its a free as the shoulder charge is in the back or head or everywhere bar the shoulder.


Depends on the severity of the "abuse" - if the remonstration is severe enough to warrant the term abuse, throw in and book the pup.

See this is one that has always puzzled me. I agree with booking the 'pup' as you say if severe enough to do so especially after giving him the free and all. But the rulebook only covers retaliation from the fouled team which leads to a cancelling of the free and the throw in as you mention. But nothing to do with dissent. So is it a case all you can do is book him and can't retract the free? Seems that way but 'not 100%?....


Line ball stands, 2 red cards for striking and also look for the 3rd man in for a red.

It means that that sub can't be used for the remainder of the game by Team B and will get a ban, however I don't think they lose a man off the pitch, where Team A will.

I'd agree with that but how can you send off a sub who isn't 'playing' or on the field of play? Sure he may get the same ban in time as the player but I imagine only a recording of his name and offence is what you'd do treating him similar to say it was a mentor and a player. You cant show the mentor a red card either?

Squareball2010

davegrohl48 wrote: »

#1 Player goes to kick a ball on the ground as a player on his own team goes to pick it up. Decision?
- I'v never seen it given as a free? What are rules on fouling your own teammates?

#2 Further extension. Player injures a player on his own team by making contact with him when attempting to kick the ball on the ground when that player was in the act of picking the ball up?

Pretty sure a few will know the game and the famous player this occured with. Was horrible incident but I believe a good call by the ref. Think it was a yellow card for the reckless kick at the ball on the ground and in that case doesn't matter that it was team mate. That rule is there to prevent injury.
I think the ball was thrown up after? The injury had stopped play and then a throw in is what is required.

Never seen or even thought of this one I must say! There's no doubt its a foul but you can't foul your own teammate obviously so it'd be a throw in I'd imagine more than anything as you'll more than likely stop the play anyway if the player needs treatment.
With regards to #2 AND MAYBE EVEN #1 when you think of it...the relevant penalty is a yellow card if you do it to an opponent (rule 5.23) so I'd imagine same here - YC and a throw in as dangerous play to a player. Funnily there is a catch all when it comes to red card offences at rule 5.17 whereby if you commit any serious infractions outlined from 5.1-5.11 against a teammate the same punishment (ordering off) is to be applied. Strange it doesn't appear for YC offences also. Not a common occurence mind!!

bruschi

Squareball2010 wrote: »

I'd agree with that but how can you send off a sub who isn't 'playing' or on the field of play? Sure he may get the same ban in time as the player but I imagine only a recording of his name and offence is what you'd do treating him similar to say it was a mentor and a player. You cant show the mentor a red card either?

the red text is impossible to read, maybe put in italics or bold in future.

you can show a mentor a red card, he can be ordered off the line in the same manner as a player is. Subs can be red carded, and have to leave the perimiter of the pitch, and it can happen mentors, and does happen too.

I'm also not sure how you can fairly shoulder someone who is bent over picking up a ball, especially if you are not at the same pace at that person. most often what happens is they launch into the side of him or thorugh his back and everyone shouts it was a fair tackle, much like the defender who when he pole-axes a player with a high charge to the head, stands there slapping his shoulder as if he gave a fair tackle. Just because you may use your shoulder does not make it a clean tackle. if you shoulder someone in the face or the back, it is a free.

you can foul your team mate too, not that it would happen, but it is still considered rough play if you take out one of your own players.

antoobrien

Squareball2010 wrote: »

I'd agree with that but how can you send off a sub who isn't 'playing' or on the field of play? Sure he may get the same ban in time as the player but I imagine only a recording of his name and offence is what you'd do treating him similar to say it was a mentor and a player. You cant show the mentor a red card either?

A person can be "sent off" once they're named on the team sheet - regardless of whether or not they are on the pitch, before the match has started and after the match has ended. It will result in a ban, the same is true for mentors/selectors, though I'm not sure if they can be removed from the dugout (like happens in the foreign sport).

davegrohl48 wrote: »

#1 Player goes to kick a ball on the ground as a player on his own team goes to pick it up. Decision?

No free - the rules on'y refer to the opposition.

davegrohl48 wrote: »

#2 Further extension. Player injures a player on his own team by making contact with him when attempting to kick the ball on the ground when that player was in the act of picking the ball up?

Again no action to be taken. All the rules refer to "an opponent" not another player/person on the field of play.