Why did I not achieve my goal time?

LarMan

Or the reasons why I didn't hit my goal time.

So DCM 2012 is over and I did not achieve my goal time, in fact I missed it by quiet a margin. Now it being my first marathon I am not overly dissapointed and am happy to have a benchmark time to race against for future races.

However I am interested in why I did not manage to hit my goal and would obviously like to make changes that would help me meet that target. I imagine alot of us who did not achieve our goals wonder why we did not make it.

So in no particular order I have written out the factors that I can think of that influenced my race and how I think I performed against each of them. I would love if the experienced racers amongst you could take a look and give me some advice/experience on these or other areas that I might have missed.

Goal time too optimistic
My goal time was 3:59:59 and I came in at 4:12:59. So was my goal time too ambitious? I had felt it was too ambitious all the way up to the Dublin half marathon where I did a time of 1:48:59. Based on McMillian pace calculator I should have been able to do 3:50:xx while the more realistic twice your half plus 10% would have put me at just under 4 hours. So I would have said that my Goal time was realistic, not conservative but realistic. I was able to maintain the goal pace until 30KM and the hill at Milltow.

Not enough Training
I have been running for just over a year. I started doing the C25K and progressed on, with my marathon training plan being Hal Higdons Novice 2 plan which tops out at 36 miles per week. So this year prior to the race I had run a total of 940 miles. I certainly ran out of steam at mile 18 and started to walk at this point. My legs were also very sore and my calfs felt like they would cramp if I pushed any harder. I consiously started to take walking breaks to try and avoid cramping. The last 12KMs I lost a minute per KM over my goal pace per KM

Weather
I though the weather was great for running so don’t think this was a factor.

Illness/Injury
While never feeling absolutely full of energy neither was I feeling bad so I don’t think this is a factor. I never had to miss a session through injury and although at times during the long training runs I felt my legs were very sore and I did get pains in tendons, on the day nothing was overly sore or strained and I think that my sore legs during the race were just down to fatigue rather than injury.

General conditioning.
Apart from the running I don’t do any other exercise, no stretches, no core work, no weights, no cross training. I also believe I am at least 10KG over my ideal running weight. If all of these factors were addressed I would expect that I would improve but in my mind if I addressed all these I would be aiming for a time much lower that 4 hours. I think we have all seen people who are not exactly athletic looking but are still more than capable of getting a time under 4 hours.

Age
I am 43 (Monday was my birthday) I still think I have plenty of time to improve my performance so again I don’t think age is an issue.

The course
Would Dublin be considered a tough course, certainly there are long drags in places but the hills are not mountainous and if they had been at the start of the course I could have managed them easily. Being at mile 18 to 21 certainly made them alot more challenging and I walked up them. Even when we hit Fosters avenue I had to take walking breaks, this section is downhill and flat so should have been doable. Before the race I had even thought I might leave the pacers at this stage and try to get a faster time. So again I think the course itself was not the problem.

Your not designed to run faster than this.
Not sure on this one I think I can get faster, infact I am certain of it.

HTFU or lack of
Maybe I gave up too easily. Sitting in my comfortable chair it is easy to look back and think I should not have walked I should have kept running, once I knew I could not make 4 hours I focused more on just finishing. I still wanted to finish before the 4:15 pace makers but at that stage I really was just hanging on, I didn’t feel like I had much more to give and one foot in front of the other was hard work. However I was not out of breath crossing the line, I was not sweating bucket loads I was just very very tired and sore.

My plan
So after looking at the above I think my problem is that I lack stamina. The speed in itself is not the issue but my body on Monday could not take running at that speed for that length of time. I also think though that if I had been slower, say 4:15 pace I would still have had issues and may have finished even slower.
My plan after recovery is to do a 10K training plan with a view to getting a PB and then at the start of Feb I will start P&D’s < 55 mile week plan with Cork city marathon being my goal race. My A goal will be once again to break 4 hours while my B goal will be to break my PB.

I definately need to lose some more weight and I feel I need to increase the number of miles I do but also I need to run them at the right effort which I am not sure I did during my last training cycle. This time I will use a HR monitor and try to follow P&Ds recommentations on HR zones for each session.

theboyblunder

Hi,

First of all, congrats on finishing your first marathon in a good time.

Job No.1 is to enjoy your achievement. You only get one first marathon. For many its the hardest one they ever do.

Your real mistake (in my view) is expecting to hit a goal time first go, after only running for a year! Dont be so hard on yourself.

Strenght and stamina build slowly over time with consistent training. Im talking about years here.

Your plan sounds good to me, increase the mileage sensibly and dont run too fast on easy days (many people will justifiably snigger at me saying that ). Follow a recognised plan (P&D is good, there are plenty out there) and stick to it. You will get faster over time with consistent training. Much faster. But patience is the key. You cant get faster while injured.

Good luck!

rom

Ran DCM 2011 in 4:29 with a half PB of 1:51 from Cork. Heartbroken I trained smart for the last year by running my fast runs fast and slow ones really really slow. I was 80Kg last year, around 75 this and will be getting down to 68 ish. I doubled my mileage in the year and did a lot of slow running based on HR which is 90% of what I do. I cam in on monday in 3:18 off a 1:32 half having doing close on 20 long runs leading up to this. I spent about 2 months running at 12mins pace effort at first and this gradually got faster with the same effort. Now that effort is 8:30min/mile. This effort is 50 beats under my max HR for me having got my max HR from a proper race or test and not an online calculator.

please see my similar thread from last year http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75958879

LarMan

rom wrote: »

Ran DCM 2011 in 4:29 with a half PB of 1:51 from Cork. Heartbroken I trained smart for the last year by running my fast runs fast and slow ones really really slow. I was 80Kg last year, around 75 this and will be getting down to 68 ish. I doubled my mileage in the year and did a lot of slow running based on HR which is 90% of what I do. I cam in on monday in 3:18 off a 1:32 half having doing close on 20 long runs leading up to this. I spent about 2 months running at 12mins pace effort at first and this gradually got faster with the same effort. Now that effort is 8:30min/mile. This effort is 50 beats under my max HR for me having got my max HR from a proper race or test and not an online calculator.

please see my similar thread from last year http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75958879

Definately need to address the weight and heart rate training, I don't think I trained as well as I could have on the long runs, running a lot of them too fast. I will use the Heart rate monitor this time around and train smarter

nellocono

Hi LarMan,
Well done on the marathon PB

Heres my thoughts for what they are worth, although I have not ever run a marathon I have read through lots of similar post like these from people who have not done as well as they would have liked and I think I have copped an overall theme that affects most; Stamina and Endurance. In your case, your endurance is definitely an issue. For a marathon, you need to build your endurance by doing long runs and recovering well from them...then rinse and repeat...

The problem I find with the Hal Higdon plan is that is it really a plan for just getting round the marathon. It doesn't really train your body for what you are about to go through on race day though. Looking at the plan you followed, I think there isn't enough long runs and none of them are prescribed to be done at race pace. So come Marathon day, you need to make a big jump of mileage and also pace and this is what catches most people. Some people who have strong natural ability can maybe pull out a sub 4.

My advice would as already posted above. Get in some long slow runs to build endurance again. I would also recommend following a 10k plan to work on speed for the next few months and then go back into the P&D up to 55 mile plan which will be much more specific to the marathon. Marathon specific training is very important if you are trying to reach a goal. Remember for sub 4 you need to run 26.2 miles at 9 minute pace, so it only makes sense that you would somehow prepare your body to deal with such distance and pace with a long run of 20 miles with 10 at marathon pace for example.

Just my 2c...

ncmc

nellocono wrote: »

Hi LarMan,
Well done on the marathon PB

Heres my thoughts for what they are worth, although I have not ever run a marathon I have read through lots of similar post like these from people who have not done as well as they would have liked and I think I have copped an overall theme that affects most; Stamina and Endurance. In your case, your endurance is definitely an issue. For a marathon, you need to build your endurance by doing long runs and recovering well from them...then rinse and repeat...

The problem I find with the Hal Higdon plan is that is it really a plan for just getting round the marathon. It doesn't really train your body for what you are about to go through on race day though. Looking at the plan you followed, I think there isn't enough long runs and none of them are prescribed to be done at race pace. So come Marathon day, you need to make a big jump of mileage and also pace and this is what catches most people. Some people who have strong natural ability can maybe pull out a sub 4.

My advice would as already posted above. Get in some long slow runs to build endurance again. I would also recommend following a 10k plan to work on speed for the next few months and then go back into the P&D up to 55 mile plan which will be much more specific to the marathon. Marathon specific training is very important if you are trying to reach a goal. Remember for sub 4 you need to run 26.2 miles at 9 minute pace, so it only makes sense that you would somehow prepare your body to deal with such distance and pace with a long run of 20 miles with 10 at marathon pace for example.

Just my 2c...

This is an interesting point, the HH2 plan states that all the long runs should be done at slow pace. I had been following this to the letter, but for my 20 mile LSR, I ran 15 of it in the Cork to Cobh race and ran it at PMP (or a little faster). I felt it gave me a fantastic psychological lift to do a longer run at PMP, plus I finished strong and felt I could have kept going at that pace. This race came at a good time for me and as a result I felt very confident heading into DCM. I had a goal of 4 hours, and did it in 3:57. I may still follow HH plans as I don’t know if I would have time to follow the higher mileage plans, but I think I would do some part of the latter LSR’s at PMP, even if it’s just for confidence sake.

rom

Personally was doing long runs at well over 9min/mile pace until Aug before PMP miles were brought in.

jester1980

Sorry to gate crash this but similar thing happened to myself so would love some advise.

Goal at the start of this plan was under 4 hours but 1/4 way through training moved it to 3.45. Finished in 4.03.52. This was second marathon, first was conn in April which i knocked 39 mins off.

Started running similar, last May 2011, went from 18 st to 14 1/2 now. This year i did half marathon in 1.39.05 and Athlone 3/4 marathon in 2.46 with what i felt like loads left in the tank on a tricky little course.

Ive been unlucky with injuries, got knocked down in June and damaged my shoulder badly but have work done on it every second week. It causes trouble after 12 k but i knew this after the 3/4 marathon and its gotten better.

Have a bad ankle too but again knew this and been told by numerous phyios it just needs stregthening. Both were at me on the day. But i cant blame them.

Come mile 20 i blew up bad on monday.

Pace for 1st half was 8.28, 9 for third QTR and 11.25 i think for end.

Thats how bad it went, cramps in the hamstring, head went completly.

So back to the drawing board for Limerick in May, can someon recommend a plan? I do a good strong speed session once a week in my plan at the moment. I also did HH int 1 for this plan.

nellocono

Personally was doing long runs at well over 9min/mile pace until Aug before PMP miles were brought in

Training slower than goal pace of course is one part of training to help teach your body to burn fat and not glycogen and run more efficiently. Yes, its very important to run slow for this reason.

I think Rom you have a much bigger aerobic base than the OP though and also more experienced over the marathon distance. with more speed work under your belt in shorter events (10 miles, halfs etc) as well. And as you said you included PMP miles in your plan (even if it was the last month or so)

The OPs plan peaked at 36 miles and only a few of the overall weeks were in the 30s. I think he just didn't have enough of an aerobic base to beat 4 hours. Adding mileage would have helped but I just believe that if you don't have a strong base then on marathon day when you try to run your longest distance ever at a pace that is too fast for you, your body will not handle it.

rom

Personally I think the easiest way to improve is drop your BMI down. My goal is 22.0 or so. Guy I ran with for first half does 25-30 miles a week, did 3:25 and very little long runs but weighs like 62 KG. Using something like myfitnesspal and get that weight down is by far the easiest way to achieve better times for me anyways.
I ran everything last year at 8min/mile which was too fast. DCM 2012 was my 2nd marathon. I only started to build an aerobic base in Dec last year. I ran very similar mileage to the OP last year and probably at a very similar pace. My plan last year peaked at 44 miles with 7 weeks over 30 miles in total leading up to DCM 2011 over the year. I totally agree that he does not have an aerobic base to beat 4 hours currently but with focused training over a few months that defo could change.

paulmcd1973

Goals: I've found setting myself multiple goals helps. For my first marathon, I set myself the goals of (1) Completing the race (2) Sub 4 (3) Sub 3:45 & (4) Sub 3:30. In the end I ran 3:43 which meant I had achieved 3 out of my 4 goals.

Training: This year because of injuries I actually did less training than previously, and I ended up with a PB. However, it being 4 years since I started this running malarkey, I find I'm training smarter these days. If the plan calls for fast runs, I really do push myself. For LSRs, I run slowly. For LSRs with PMP to finish, I stick to PMP at the finish. We're all different, so some training plans suit people better than others. Have a look at P&D (it nearly killed me the year I tried it), or just make up one yourself that suits everything else you're doing.

Other conditioning: I finally gave up playing soccer on Saturdays. I suspect the lack of people trying to kick me has helped me stay a bit fitter this year. I also ran two marathons this year, Dingle and Dublin. I knew Dingle would be a slow one, but I decided to use it partially as a training run for Dublin and I enjoyed it immensely.

Age: I'm a bit younger than you OP, but not by much. My main goal for next year will be sub 3:30. Also, tell that to the 80-year-old who recently ran 3:15 for the Marathon.

Finally, I'd suggest negative splits. This was the first year I managed to do a negative split, and I felt great finishing the race. The feeling of passing out people coming to the end of the race is considerably better than being passed.

nellocono

@ Jester
Everyone is different and it is hard to judge what went wrong for one person and another...How many long runs did you do in the plan you followed? Did you include any PMP miles in the plan? What kind of mileage were you averaging?

You will hear so often that the marathon really starts at mile 20, so you need to get psychologically prepared for this. You need to be sure that you are not going to blow up at mile 20. I would expect at least 4-5 long runs or 19-21 miles in a marathon plan.

Going on your half and 3/4 times you looked all set to run a great marathon. But hey, things might not go to plan on marathon day and your body might not be as healthy as it could be for a variety of reasons. Limerick, will probably be my first marathon as well and I will follow P&D<55...

rom

nellocono wrote: »

@ Jester
You will hear so often that the marathon really starts at mile 20, so you need to get psychologically prepared for this. You need to be sure that you are not going to blow up at mile 20.

exactly. I was told "transport yourself to 20 miles and then the race starts" from a 2:20 marathoner. Wise words.

jester1980

Thanks for that, I did two 20 miles. There was an 18 and 19 in there too. Mileage went from 40 km to 75km. Missed the first week with injury as had to take 6 weeks off after accident but did 17 weeks without missing a much runs after that.

Would that p+d plan be ok for someone like me running just over a year. Or is that too
Big a jump?

I think for myself it may be a good idea to try and get two long runs of 22 miles in, more for the mind than anything.

Van.Bosch

jester1980 wrote: »

Goal at the start of this plan was under 4 hours but 1/4 way through training moved it to 3.45. Finished in 4.03.52. This was second marathon, first was conn in April which i knocked 39 mins off.

Started running similar, last May 2011, went from 18 st to 14 1/2 now. This year i did half marathon in 1.39.05 and Athlone 3/4 marathon in 2.46 with what i felt like loads left in the tank on a tricky little course.

Ive been unlucky with injuries, got knocked down in June and damaged my shoulder badly but have work done on it every second week. It causes trouble after 12 k but i knew this after the 3/4 marathon and its gotten better.

Have a bad ankle too but again knew this and been told by numerous phyios it just needs stregthening. Both were at me on the day. But i cant blame them.

Come mile 20 i blew up bad on monday.

Pace for 1st half was 8.28, 9 for third QTR and 11.25 i think for end.

Thats how bad it went, cramps in the hamstring, head went completly.

So back to the drawing board for Limerick in May, can someon recommend a plan? I do a good strong speed session once a week in my plan at the moment. I also did HH int 1 for this plan.

I'm in a similar position to you and the OP. based on your times, sub 4 was a fair target and 3:45 not ridiculous. I'm no expert but I reckon you maybe set off to fast based on the above which means perhaps 345 was not realistic. Why was it not realistic is prob the real question and I think the answer is also what held me back from sub 4, stamina and endurance. I can run a 1:42 half but not a sub 4 marathon, which doesn't add up. So I reckon I just need to build up stamina and endurance through more long runs with PMP miles. I did the 3/4 too and did it all at PMP but still missed the 4 hour target.

Does this make sense to the experienced runners?

snailsong

I would never describe myself as an experienced runner but Monday was my second marathon so i suppose I'm getting that way. I rarely offer advice but the training outlined here is quite similar to what I've been at so fwiw here's my 2c. Apologies if it reads as a thinly veiled brag.

I started training in 2010 just before my 40th (usual story). That year I did a lot of 5k, 10k, a half marathon and Gaelforce West which is a multi sport adventure race.

Last year I ran 1.40 in the Achill half marathon and off this I aimed to run a 3:30 marathon. I did GFW again in august and jumped in to HH novice 2 at week 8 or so. I found DCM tough but managed 3.29xx.

This year again I did a lot of short races and a lot of cycling. I ran 1.32xx in Achill so planned for 3.15 in DCM. I picked up an injury in GFW in August so really only started my marathon training in September. The plan was loosely based on HH intermediate 1 but I sort of did every second week of the plan. My weekly long runs were (in k's) 12, 16, 22, 28, 32, 33. Two weeks out I did a 10k race (40.03). I didn't do any PMP on the long runs as I was ramping up the distance pretty steeply and was wary of injury. However I did a fair few PMP miles on the midweek runs especially in the last 3 weeks. I managed 3.14.xx on Monday.

I think the marathon is all about endurance. OP, in your first year of training I think this is always going to be a weak point. Next year with more training under your belt you should notice a big improvement. Your half time is good, well good enough for 3.45 or better imo. In fact, I think it can be a help to set an ambitious target. The bigger the prize at the end the greater the resolve to dig in when things get tough. My overall milage is low, about 600m last year pre-marathon and 550 this year. However I think that cycling has been very beneficial. I've done a lot of 3 hr rides this year and some considerably longer which I believe has been great for my endurance base. And I love cycling so its a type of training which requires little motivation.

I'm a bit of a race junkie at this stage but I think the shorter races have served as a reasonable substitute for the speed training that would be part of a more sophisticated programme. Also racing provides invaluable experience when it comes to pacing and assessing how your going on the bigger days out. Both last year and this year I ran a 10k 2 weeks before the marathon. This, I think, had several benefits both physical and psychological. Firstly, in the absence of speedwork it reassures you that the training is working. It helps you finalise your race target. It gives you confidence for the marathon and as you probably know by now a big part of the race is in your head. It sharpens you up too.

You say you ran out of steam at mile 18 and felt you needed to walk in case you cramped up. I think everybody feels like walking at some point in the latter end, or else they're not doing it right. In both my marathons I convinced myself that stopping or even slowing down would be a conscious decision rather than something I had to do. Just don't take that decision and see what happens. It wasn't pretty but I was still with the pacers when we hit Nasau street. Stubbornness can be your friend, so work on that.

Finally is 43 too old? Shortly after I started this lark I read on here that you get 10 years of improvement once you start training regardless of what age you start. I was skeptical at the time but now I'm convinced. You're about the same age as me, we'll do all our best racing in our fifties.

Well done on completing your first marathon. The fact that you're analysing and faultfinding is a good indication that you have the committment to achieve even more.

miguelk

Hi LarMan - Good analytical approach - no doubt you will find the weak points and tackle them, you did a very good first marathon don't forget. I fell a bit short of my expectations also, a lot more goes into your marathon time than 2 x HM + 10%. For example, you don't know exactly how your body will respond to the strain you are putting it under (which is what was my downfall) and no formula can predict that! So for this aspect (general conditioning) check out the winter strength challenge thread - as you know from the DCM thread there's no hiding from a table that needs updating!

rom wrote: »

I doubled my mileage in the year and did a lot of slow running based on HR which is 90% of what I do. I cam in on monday in 3:18 off a 1:32 half having doing close on 20 long runs leading up to this. I spent about 2 months running at 12mins pace effort at first and this gradually got faster with the same effort. Now that effort is 8:30min/mile. This effort is 50 beats under my max HR for me having got my max HR from a proper race or test and not an online calculator.

Hi Rom, Impressive results.

Sounds like you are very dedicated.Question for you - so running at [max HR]-50 your pace gradually increased from 12 - 8:30 min/mile. Are you talking about your weekly LSR that you used this approach for? Thanks

ThePiedPiper

First of all, it's great to see loads of people who have done the DCM looking to improve on their performances and setting new targets.

The best possible way of improving for a future marathon effort is to continue doing some running right through the winter and early spring. Base building, as previously mentioned by another poster, is built up over months and years. This doesn't mean marathon-type training all year around, just some training. For instance, since I did a marathon 3 weeks ago, I've ran about 55 miles in total. I'd be delighted to keep up an average of 18-20 miles a week over the Winter.

My biggest mistake after my first marathon was stopping training completely until May the following year, I put on 2 stone, and it felt like I was starting from scratch. It was a bit soul-destroying really.

I've never used a HH plan, but the mileage on the Novice plan strikes me as being very low; suitable for a safe get-me-round marathon, but not enough to really get close to your potential. For me first three marathons, I was peaking at around 50 miles per week. This sort of mileage took me to 3:16. Sub-3 marathons can be achieved on 55-60 miles per week.

LarMan

RunForestRun wrote: »

First of all, it's great to see loads of people who have done the DCM looking to improve on their performances and setting new targets.

The best possible way of improving for a future marathon effort is to continue doing some running right through the winter and early spring. Base building, as previously mentioned by another poster, is built up over months and years. This doesn't mean marathon-type training all year around, just some training. For instance, since I did a marathon 3 weeks ago, I've ran about 55 miles in total. I'd be delighted to keep up an average of 18-20 miles a week over the Winter.

My biggest mistake after my first marathon was stopping training completely until May the following year, I put on 2 stone, and it felt like I was starting from scratch. It was a bit soul-destroying really.

I've never used a HH plan, but the mileage on the Novice plan strikes me as being very low; suitable for a safe get-me-round marathon, but not enough to really get close to your potential. For me first three marathons, I was peaking at around 50 miles per week. This sort of mileage took me to 3:16. Sub-3 marathons can be achieved on 55-60 miles per week.

I agree about the stopping, according to my Garmin I burned 66,000 calories during my marathon training runs over 18 weeks which I think roughly equates to 18 pounds yet I managed to put on half a stone during the training so stopping would get me into even more trouble.

ROM mentioned weight and this is one area that I really need to address. Over the last couple of years I have lost 4.5 stone but I still have a lot of fat on my body. I was watching the videos of my finish and apart from the obvious discomfort I was feeling the most striking thing for me was how out of shape I looked. I just didn't look fit enough to run a fast marathon. Now I know that just looking like an athlete does not equate to running a good time but there are no fat Kenyans winning marathons. I think ROM said in a different thread that one of the biggest gains he got was when he lost weight.

So I would be very dissapointed that by the time the Cork marathon comes along in June, I am not 10KGs lighter. Hopefully a bid of speed work in the December and January and then the increased milage of the P&D sub 55 along with a good diet will all lead to my goal.

sureitsgrand

Hi Larman,

No advice from me - just really good to see your approach to "fixing" what went wrong. I'm in a similar enough boat to you ...albeit with a marathon time over 30 mins longer!

I plan on doing speedwork up until January and I'm curious to see how this was help. Doing HH novice plans seems grand for beginners - but even I got the feeling I was just plodding all the time and not really pushing myself. Hopefully the speedwork will challenge my body a bit more, and also help me lose a bit of weight. I'm just under 13 stone at the moment and reckon if I lost another stone I'd see great improvements. So, as well as focusing on speedwork (with a middling LSR) at the weekend I'm focusing on my diet. If I lose that weight I'll then start training for a spring marathon..If not I'll keep going till I do and focus on an autumn one.

Best of luck with it all anyway - will be interested to see how you get on.

LarMan

Same to you Sureitsgrand. I am about half a stone heavier than you, had plan to be at 12.5 for the marathon but just ate like a pig, I started running to lose weight but now I want to be better, the only other issue I have is how do I fit Golf into the equation as well as the increased milage. Pity you cant include Golf as an LSR

rom

miguelk wrote: »

Hi LarMan - Good analytical approach - no doubt you will find the weak points and tackle them, you did a very good first marathon don't forget. I fell a bit short of my expectations also, a lot more goes into your marathon time than 2 x HM + 10%. For example, you don't know exactly how your body will respond to the strain you are putting it under (which is what was my downfall) and no formula can predict that! So for this aspect (general conditioning) check out the winter strength challenge thread - as you know from the DCM thread there's no hiding from a table that needs updating!



Hi Rom, Impressive results.

Sounds like you are very dedicated.Question for you - so running at [max HR]-50 your pace gradually increased from 12 - 8:30 min/mile. Are you talking about your weekly LSR that you used this approach for? Thanks

It would be all my running for the first 6-8 weeks gradually increasing mileage as there is less stress on the body and then introducing speed work gradually. Max mileage was high 60s which was easy compared to the 40 fast I used to do last year if that makes sence. There would be a few doubles and no weekly long runs in that with the focus being mileage. A long run would be 15+. Maybe 2 12 mile runs though.

plodder

Sounds like you have an ambitious plan in place. The only thing I'd say is that the P&D 55 mpw plan is a big step up from the last plan you used and it does increase in intensity vey rapidly from the start. So, you'd want to be very comfortable running the weekly mileage of week 1 for a number of weeks leading up to it and realistically it's something you should build up to over an extended period.

Murph_D

Hi Larman,

Had same sub-4 goal last week, in my first marathon, running history about the same length of time as you, and also followed HHN2. The main differences between us would be weight (I am 71.5k, BMI about 22) and age (I'm a little older than you at 51).

I ended up with 4:02 after a seemingly perfect preparation, arriving at the starting line injury free. I ran a good race. Good hydration. No toilet stops. No walking. The only hiccup was having to stop for maybe 20 secs in Terenure to retie a shoelace (unforgivable, sure, but in the scheme of things not so bad).

I had done a reasonable amount of hill work in training but the 1.5k up to and including Roebuck hill slowed me a lot (lost 20 sec per km here which I never got back). Having had that stuffing knocked out, the remaining kilometers were tough, and I ran none of them at my MP.

So it's simple for me - I was done in by the distance (the hill alone wasn't enough to do the damage, as evidenced by my slow pace through Ballsbridge). I think I would have gotten over my inexperience if I'd introduced myself to the pacers, asked them to look after me, and not lost them in the hills (I didn't do the first two, but managed to achieve the third).

Next year will of course be different! I managed to enjoy the day because i trusted the six months training and at no point did I ever think I would not finish, and I went off slow enough to know I would not blow up.

Immediately after the run it was niggling me me that I didn't make my time - should maybe have tried harder, etc - but a cold look at the garmin data says I didn't have it in the last 10k to do it on my own. But the time I did do was close enough that I could probably have been HTFU'd by the pacers.

The other schoolboy error I made was to calculate MP on 42.2k, instead of the 42.5 that most of us ran. That cost me 2-3 secs/km, so there's nearly two minutes right there.

Which reminds me - when can we all ditch this Miles stuff? I don't even know what a mile is

LaHaine

I think a big problem for me was that I had no plan B. In the 2011 dcm I was going for 4 hours. On track around half way but then fell apart. When the 4.15 pacers passed me I gave up really. Whereas I should have reevaluated my goals and tried.to tuck in with them.

Probably better off trying to run a good race than a specific time in your first marathon.

Murph_D

LaHaine wrote: »

I think a big problem for me was that I had no plan B. In the 2011 dcm I was going for 4 hours. On track around half way but then fell apart. When the 4.15 pacers passed me I gave up really. Whereas I should have reevaluated my goals and tried.to tuck in with them.

Probably better off trying to run a good race than a specific time in your first marathon.

Good point. I think my own plan B was to keep running - i.e. to weather the problems and finish without having to walk. If you can do that you will always be reasonably close to your original time plan.

911sc

Larman,
I could have commisionned you to write my own story. I like your analysis, what you wrote is so down to earth and so true to many of us.
I too was aiming to 4h (inner voice), 4h10 was more realistic and finished in 4h17. Reason: lack of stamina and commitment when things get tough going. Once i have stopped and walked a bit, why not do it a 2nd time, and 3rd timer, etc... In all i walked approx 10 times from Clonskea to end.. This is where the 17minutes were lost.
Thanks for bringing reality back and perspective to a marathon...26miles is still a distance that needs to be respected and approach well prepared.

Really good inputs from other posters as well. Nice to read each experience.

ThePiedPiper

Bit of talk about weight and stuff over some of the posts there got me thinking. Before I started marathon training in June 2005, I was around 13.5 stone. By the time I ran DCM 2005, I was under 11. Hard to judge relative performances with first marathon, but in some of my later marathons where weight had gone back up a bit, I got a better idea of how much effect weight has on performance. In July 2010, I ran my slowest ever marathon in around 3 hours 40. 10 weeks later, a stone lighter and obviously better trained, i ran 3:05. I'm about 5 foot 11 and 11 stone is just about the right weight for me. A couple of times, I've gone up to 12, and I really do see a big difference. Just some food for thought..

Some other things to comment on also. In my experience, if you have a target of x:59 or x:29, you should really train for x:55 or x:25. The tail end of marathons nearly always gets tough. Out of 14, I've only ran two or three negative splits, one even and about 10 positive splits. Train for a time that is 5 minutes quicker than your goal, and it'll make your goal pace a lot easier. What felt like my two most conservative marathons in the first halves were my two fastest by the end.

rom

RunForestRun wrote: »

Bit of talk about weight and stuff over some of the posts there got me thinking. Before I started marathon training in June 2005, I was around 13.5 stone. By the time I ran DCM 2005, I was under 11. Hard to judge relative performances with first marathon, but in some of my later marathons where weight had gone back up a bit, I got a better idea of how much effect weight has on performance. In July 2010, I ran my slowest ever marathon in around 3 hours 40. 10 weeks later, a stone lighter and obviously better trained, i ran 3:05. I'm about 5 foot 11 and 11 stone is just about the right weight for me. A couple of times, I've gone up to 12, and I really do see a big difference. Just some food for thought..

Some other things to comment on also. In my experience, if you have a target of x:59 or x:29, you should really train for x:55 or x:25. The tail end of marathons nearly always gets tough. Out of 14, I've only ran two or three negative splits, one even and about 10 positive splits. Train for a time that is 5 minutes quicker than your goal, and it'll make your goal pace a lot easier. What felt like my two most conservative marathons in the first halves were my two fastest by the end.

Now that will motivate me the lose the extra stone I need to, being the same height as you. Thanks

LarMan

RunForestRun wrote: »

Bit of talk about weight and stuff over some of the posts there got me thinking. Before I started marathon training in June 2005, I was around 13.5 stone. By the time I ran DCM 2005, I was under 11. Hard to judge relative performances with first marathon, but in some of my later marathons where weight had gone back up a bit, I got a better idea of how much effect weight has on performance. In July 2010, I ran my slowest ever marathon in around 3 hours 40. 10 weeks later, a stone lighter and obviously better trained, i ran 3:05. I'm about 5 foot 11 and 11 stone is just about the right weight for me. A couple of times, I've gone up to 12, and I really do see a big difference. Just some food for thought..

Some other things to comment on also. In my experience, if you have a target of x:59 or x:29, you should really train for x:55 or x:25. The tail end of marathons nearly always gets tough. Out of 14, I've only ran two or three negative splits, one even and about 10 positive splits. Train for a time that is 5 minutes quicker than your goal, and it'll make your goal pace a lot easier. What felt like my two most conservative marathons in the first halves were my two fastest by the end.

I have to say I did all my marathon pace training at 5:30 per KM which if I had been able to sustain that pace would have got me in about 8 minutes under the 4 hours so while I was hoping to go sub 4 I was actually training for a 3:52 marathon. Of course in the HHN2 program you only ever do 8 miles at marathon pace. One of the things that I think might be useful and is in the P&D program is running Marathon pace miles at the end of an LSR, I think this could help as you simulate some of the fatigue you will get, so for instance there is an 18 mile LSR but 14 of those miles are at marathon pace (so hardly an LSR) but a more a reflection of the effort required

rom

LarMan wrote: »

I have to say I did all my marathon pace training at 5:30 per KM which if I had been able to sustain that pace would have got me in about 8 minutes under the 4 hours so while I was hoping to go sub 4 I was actually training for a 3:52 marathon. Of course in the HHN2 program you only ever do 8 miles at marathon pace. One of the things that I think might be useful and is in the P&D program is running Marathon pace miles at the end of an LSR, I think this could help as you simulate some of the fatigue you will get, so for instance there is an 18 mile LSR but 14 of those miles are at marathon pace (so hardly an LSR) but a more a reflection of the effort required

Doing all your running at that pace was your downfall. The easy runs need to be easy. My easy runs were at 8:45 ish (you can convert that. I think there should be a run that we all have to talk in miles )

I ran all my runs last year at the exact same pace, close on 8 mins. Am fitter now but running at race pace all the time is not how you will achieve your goal and if you do reach your goal then you are under achieving.

I often go for a run at 10min per mile pace or slower. I see a sub 2:50 female runner locally running at 9:30min/mile around the farm. There is a reason for this. You should read this in detail http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf

HHN2 is a good plan however like myself you probably followed it incorrectly. Monday, Thursday, Saturday are Easy running pace. Every 2nd week or something like that has a pace run on Wed faster.
You state above that you ran everything at the same pace which is wrong.

Basically a good marathon plan is trying to bring a few things together.
1. Long run endurance
2. Ability for you to run when legs are tired (hence why 3 days are together in the middle of the week)
3. Some faster stuff to get your legs used to race pace.
4. Recovery/easy runs at the right time so that you are ready for you next session.
5. Consistency so that you are constantly gradually improving.
6. Stop you getting injured as you won't up the mileage etc too drastically.
7. Race practice such as a 10K, 10M and half so you get used to racing and race pace etc as the more relaxed you are the better you will do.
8. Steady increasing the long run 2 weeks with one week step back.
9. Normally two key sessions a week Wed and the long run with the rest working on your aerobic base.

ncmc

rom wrote: »

Doing all your running at that pace was your downfall. The easy runs need to be easy. My easy runs were at 8:45 ish (you can convert that. I think there should be a run that we all have to talk in miles )

I think Larman means that all his pace runs were at that speed, but the HH2 plan only had one pace run every fortnight and the longest pace run was 8 miles.

I think it's for this reason that I will look for an alternative plan for my next marathon, or else, add my own pace miles into the LSR like they recommend in P&D

PS I agree about the miles vs kilometres btw! I can't cope with all the km talk at all

Murph_D

ncmc wrote: »

PS I agree about the miles vs kilometres btw! I can't cope with all the km talk at all

To be fair to Larman, this is his thread and he deals in the metric system. I've banged on about this before but I don't understand why people are still talking in miles!

RayCun

4 min/km is 6.26/mile
5 min/km is 8.03/mile
6 min/km is 9.39/mile
10 seconds/km is 16 seconds/mile

Roadpounder

Interesting stuff all this analysis. Posted in previous thread about cramping after 20 miles or so. As stated I followed P&D up to 55, Finished in 3.49 and happy enough.
However cramp issue is nagging me, lost about 7mins in last 10k( went from 8.20 mile to 10 min mile) due to stretching every 1/4 ml due to cramping and posters advised me that maybe take salt sticks, more sports drinks etc. may avert cramps.
Looking at my LSR's, My goal PMP pace was 8.18 per mile, however I rang my LSR at 8.50 to 9.00 min pace. Was I running these too quick and looking at article that Rom posted I wold reckon that I was running them too quickly.

rom

murphd77 wrote: »

To be fair to Larman, this is his thread and he deals in the metric system. I've banged on about this before but I don't understand why people are still talking in miles!

When they change DCM (The event in question) to only KM markers you will have a point, until then ... Personally km's are much better because you get pace feedback splits on your watch more often which is a good thing but until above happens I will use miles.

Murph_D

rom wrote: »

When they change DCM (The event in question) to only KM markers you will have a point, until then ... Personally km's are much better because you get pace feedback splits on your watch more often which is a good thing but until above happens I will use miles.

I really don't understand your logic, rom - the way the course is marked is irrelevant if you use a watch or other independent measuring device, which it seems almost everyone does. As we know the mile markers on the course are not accurate anyway. But I agree with the thrust of your point in that it's up to DCM to acknowledge that we use the metric system in this country and put the mile measurers out of their misery! (No offense intended). I will be making my views known to the DCM authorities as I really feel it's time to ditch the imperial charade.

rom

murphd77 wrote: »

I really don't understand your logic, rom - the way the course is marked is irrelevant if you use a watch or other independent measuring device, which it seems almost everyone does. As we know the mile markers on the course are not accurate anyway. But I agree with the thrust of your point in that it's up to DCM to acknowledge that we use the metric system in this country and put the mile measurers out of their misery! (No offense intended). I will be making my views known to the DCM authorities as I really feel it's time to ditch the imperial charade.

Get the Ballycotton 10 changed while your at it

lway

rom wrote: »

Get the Ballycotton 10 changed while your at it

Yeah, The "Ballycotton 16.0934" doesn't quite have the same ring to it