Defending the Nintendo of 2012

johnny_ultimate

I've seen a bit of a trend recently, both here and on other, less sensible websites. The argument takes a few forms: at its most extreme ranging from the claim that Nintendo 'abandoned' their fans, and the common complaint that the Wii was a worthless piece of crap for children. There are various alternative arguments along the same lines, too, from logical disappointment to the irrational hatred. I, as you might guess from the thread title, disagree, even if there is some truth in some of the more rational arguments.

Nintendo, above all, has always been the designer of brilliant games. Forget the hardware for a second - it's the games that we remember Nintendo for. In this respect, they still deliver. Of course they've started making games at a range of audiences, from instantly disposable and gimmicky yet fun party games (Wii Sports) to failed experiments (Wii Music) to endless Mario spin-offs. If you don't like these games, fair enough (I'm fairly indifferent to most of them) - but they sell bucketloads, and ultimately help fund the games we, the self-proclaimed gamers, want to play. And Nintendo have continually delivered, albeit perhaps with strange release pacing. Still: the two Mario Galaxy games are amongst the most perfectly designed games I've ever played. Skyward Sword was a sprawling, thrilling mix of tradition and invention. Kid Icarus Uprising was a joy. Mario Kart 7 and 3D Land bite-sized gems that remind us of the joys of traditional handheld gaming. Plenty of their upcoming titles - from Luigi's Mansion 2 to Pikmin 3 and Paper Mario Sticker Star - look great. A lot of sequels, yes, but brilliant ones at that. I'd be the first to hope Nintendo commit to more original IPs in the coming years, but they continue to wring further potential from their long-existing franchises.

Not to mention their commitment to publishing niche titles in Europe. The Wii has to many people's surprise become the JRPG console of choice in the last year. Nintendo were responsible for publishing Sin and Punishment 2 in Ireland, for which we should be endlessly grateful. And they alone were willing to save the great Bayonetta from purgatory. The 'hardcore' are well served by Nintendo going into 2013. That's not to mention the consistently rich third party libraries for all their current consoles.

Motion control seems to be a sticking point for a lot of people, as well as a continued uncertainty over the Wii-U's uses. And yes, a lot of bad Wii games have forced you to waggle the Wiimote unconvincingly. And yet... in the best games the console has to offer, the control scheme has enhanced the experienced in both subtle and obvious ways. From the complex motion of Zack and Wiki to the light shakes demanded in Mario Galaxy, plenty of games have genuinely benefited from the hardware. Sure, even at its best and with the addition of the Motionplus the Wiimote can seem like a first draft, but Nintendo aren't afraid to innovate, warts and all. Traditional control schemes haven't gone away on the Wii, nor should they - the classic controller is the optimal scheme for many of the console's best games, and even the Wiimote and nunchuck can prove an excellent combo in a well-designed game such as Mario Galaxy. But Nintendo aren't afraid to offer inventive new ways to play, and while it can take them a while to find their feet, we should be grateful someone is challenging the status quo even when it doesn't directly appeal to us. And it's undeniable that Nintendo's most interesting experiments with motion have been massive successes in comparison with their competitors - Skyward Sword IMO is a great indicator that there is potential in motion control yet.

Of course Nintendo make mistakes. While it's a brilliantly designed console, the 3D of the 3DS was a mistake, as was the baffling decision to not include a second analogue stick. They could have done a much better job explaining the potential and uses of the WiiU tablet. And, of course, it's taken them years to realise the potential of online gaming and digital marketplaces, and are still stuck behind their competitors in this regard (hopefully finally rectified with their upcoming hardware launch).

Despite their missteps, Nintendo remain amongst the boldest hardware and software designers. They've truly made gaming more accessible, and while we don't have to like the games they managed that with (even if some are unfairly demonised), we should be grateful that they've allowed more people to experience the real joys of our oftentimes stubbornly elitist hobby. I also have to commend their recent attempts to address PR issues - the Iwata Nintendo direct streams have been a particularly welcome form of communication with the playerbase. They've continued to produce games that can amaze and entertain long-term, committed players, and are responsible for several of the most brilliant games of the last five years. The future is looking bright. If anything, Nintendo hasn't abandoned its fans: many of their fans abandoned them. And, TBH, said 'fans' are missing out.

TL;DR: Nintendo - **** Yeah.

Magill

The Wii is for me,a worthless piece of ****... that had 3 or 4 games that i enjoyed(JRPG's for the most part aren't for me). Motion control ruined skyward sword for me. The lack of HD hurt the console a lot imo, most of the games look disgusting on my TV.. the biggest advance this generation on the consoles was the online aspect.. so yeah, the wii was a massive disappointment.

Im not a fan of handheld consoles, never have been, so couldn't care less about the 3DS.

I will definitely be getting a wii-u at some stage.

Star Lord

I love my 3DS.

I loved my Wii too, but save for (the fantastic) Skyward Sword, hadn't gotten all that much use over the past couple of years. Itching to get my hands on the Wii U!

super_furry

I think they're caught in a tough position but that they spend too much time looking back and not enough looking forward software wise.

Their hardcore fan base is so vocal and loud about what they want - updated versions of the games they've been playing for the last 20 years - they want new Mario games, new Zelda games, new Mario Kart games and new Smash Brothers games. So it's understandable that they continue pumping these out but I think it may be stunting their growth.

Nintendo's biggest strength has always been their first party games but I'm starting to feel that they're resting on their laurels in terms of creativity. How long is it since we've had a new Nintendo AAA franchise? Mario and Zelda are system sellers to an extent, and will be very good games but I just get a sense of deja vu when I look at the Wii U launch titles. Sooner or later game fatigue sets in and you find yourself not really caring as much about the latest Mario or even Zelda game as you did.

For many gamers, motion controls are a busted flush. How many people, myself included have a Wii sitting under the table just gathering dust? Mainstream console gamers have left the Wii and motion controls behind and Nintendo are going to have a very tough job winning them back. I look at the Wii U and don't see anything different, new or exciting. Touchscreen and motion controls, combining the DS and Wii control schemes just doesn't get me excited. I appreciate that Nintendo are taking an alternate approach to console gaming but it's not one that convinces me I need to buy a Wii U.

Retr0gamer

I'd like to correct some misconceptions about the Wii first.

1. The Wii looks terrible since it's not a HD console.

Well that's your own fault for using the pack in composite cables. Get yourself a RGB cable or a component cable and the Wii looks a hell of a lot better and has the benefit of most games running in 60 FPS. A lot of so called HD games like Call of Duty don't run in 720p run in resolutions very close to the Wii's 480p

2. There's no games on the Wii

Again another absolute fallacy. The Wii has a tonne of great games. Most people only see the third party shovelware but dig beneath that and there's plenty of excellent games, a lot of which are far more interesting than the safe games on the big two. Sure you might think that these games aren't for you and to you I say you are missing out.

Now the Wii doesn't have the sheer volume of games the other two have or the online infrastructure but it makes a great compliment to one of them. To say it's a bad console is just wrong.

Then there's Nintendo's Handheld side of things and quite frankly they have been superb. They are still supporting the DS with incredible games and it has overcome the SNES as my favourite console ever. The 3DS is turning out to be an amazing console too (people complaining about the poor launch are forgetting how terrible every console launch is). The lack of two analogue sticks is an over sight but one that doesn't bother me, I don't see any point in playing the types of games that require one on a handheld device and so far only Resi Revelations really needs it. The region locking debacle however is a very poor move by nintendo.

I like how nintendo handles it's franchises as well. The mario franchises and off shoots always offer something new, while Kirby has been the franchise Nintendo uses to try out its wilder ideas. The only franchise that really needs a shake up is Zelda. As for the lack of new IP, I have to disagree there as well, we had hotel dusk, another code, Xenoblade, Last Story, Pandoras Tower, Elite Beat Agents, Nintendogs, Electroplankton, etc. Nintendo is always quietly innovating.

Nintendo don't make enough games anymore? Rubbish. Find me more prolific developer this generation. You won't find one.

While I think Nintendo have made big mistakes with stuff like region locking the 3DS and I'm a little worried about the WiiU what matters most is that they are still pumping out a silly amount of amazing games from their first and second party teams.

While Sony and MS have stuck to the same old formula Nintendo opened up the videogame audience with the Wii and DS introducing more people than ever to videogames. Not many people know many girls their age that play games but you'll have loads when the DS and Wii generation grow up. They introduced motion controls, a gimmick but one that worked for them. They made the 2D platformer profitable again. They totally rewrote how JPPGs should work with the superb Xenoblade. They changed how 3D platformers work with Galaxy and 3D Land.

If you feel you don't like nintendo games, well I pity you.

hightower1

The Wii is this generations most expensive board game... you take it out once a year when family is over then dont even look at it for the rest of the time.


The Wii U is more of the same with this gens gimmick of a second screen, first party games will actually make use of it and try novel ideas using it but 3rd party arent going to devote time or effort to it and you'll see it devolve into a map / inventory screen and thats all.

The graphical power of the Wii U is current gen so come next xmas when the next gen come out developers are again stuck with a Nintendo console running old visuals / engines with the other big boys on similar graphical levels / engines to each other meaning 3rd party support will dry up just like it did with the Wii. If your not going to run with the crowd dont expect the same level of support dedicated to you as the crowd from devs.

I respect Nintendo trying to innovate but they could innovate their control schemes without lacking in engine / graphical power as the rest of the manufacturers. Its their Achilles heel. You cant expect devs to have two separate teams and devote more time and resources to accommodate 1 of 3 manufacturers hardware.

johnny_ultimate

As I said, I would most definitely welcome major new Nintendo IPs. Overall, though, I think Nintendo are quite simply the best developer of sequels. After two and a half decades, Mario and Zelda are overfamiliar. And yet it's amazing how fresh and invigorating those titles still are. Skyward Sword was just joyous - comforting in its familiarity but exhilarating in its scale and execution. I don't think I have a bad word to say about either Mario Galaxy game - genuine perfect tens, no doubt about it. Yes, the 'quantity' of truly great Wii games may be relatively low - although there are lots of fantastic first and third person games on it, many of which have already been mentioned here - but I don't care when the quality is so high. There's a reason why there's only one or two full-scale or 'proper' Mario and Zelda titles per console generation. I wouldn't have it any other way when the quality control is so high.

I would definitely disagree that the lack of HD is a console killer, even if it would be nice. 480p is more than servicable when art design is strong. The stark black & white hyperviolence of Mad World. The colour and vibrancy of Skyward Sword's worlds. The manic, busy screens of Sin & Punishment. The rich fantasy backdrops of Xenoblade. The Wii is home to a variety of fantastic looking games, and IMO the pixel count barely matters when the imagination is high enough.

Princess Peach

I enjoy the 3D aspect of the 3DS I also rarely leave the house without it!

hightower1

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I would definitely disagree that the lack of HD is a console killer, even if it would be nice. 480p is more than servicable when art design is strong. The stark black & white hyperviolence of Mad World. The colour and vibrancy of Skyward Sword's worlds. The manic, busy screens of Sin & Punishment. The rich fantasy backdrops of Xenoblade. The Wii is home to a variety of fantastic looking games, and IMO the pixel count barely matters when the imagination is high enough.

For me graphical fidelity does matter but its superficial and it wont matter to everyone but where it killed the Wii and will kill the Wii U is on the dev front.

For example if your Activsion and your releasing COD, it will cost you millions to create , you have to devote a huge amount of time and resources to the undertaking but now you have the Wii U... where you now have to use a totally different engine to the other two versions, you'll need a separate team working on this and perhaps reshape the entire experience to accommodate memory limitations compared to the other two consoles. This happened with this gens COD where ps3 and xbox where identical but Wii had so many limitations the game was massively different and sold (user base wise) disproportional lower amounts and was quality wise far far worse than xbox or ps3.

While USERS might not mind having less memory in console, less of an expansive experience on one console as opposed to the other 2 or having poorer graphics ; the developers and publishers certainly will and they in turn will focus on the other two rather than Wii U. It happened with the Wii over and over and is going to happen the Wii U also.

Like I said, innovation doesnt have to mean less power but Nintendo seem to thinik it does.

ShadowHearth

i like how fan need to make threads and defend their beloved console!


Who is next? lets defend PS vita next? who will pick that one up?

richymcdermott

Lets leave what people think about nintendo for a sec aswell as there games and hardware aside

The big thing in all of this is nintendo has made gaming popular and not just a pass time that makes us violent and we are wasting our time with.

Nintendo has made games accessible and your grandmother could pick up a controller and have fun , bringing familys together is what its all about and i dont see the harm in that.

The wii has some of the best games you will ever play as people have mentioned galaxy games, zelda tp, skyward sword, sin and punishment , metroid prime 3 , metriod other m , xenoblade, last story, pandora tower, zack and wiki, nights journey of dreams , sonic colors

Lets also mention alot of people , myself included complained about the dlc model this generation and developers having the option to patch games could leave them buggy at launch and fix them later , there was no such option on the wii so you felt the developers had to bring some new and eye catching or they wouldnt see any sales on the wii.

Also the term casual gamer and hardcore gamer i hate when is used, we are all gamers at the end of the day but if the term hardcore gamer means blood and guns then you can keep them because theres a hell of alot more variety on the wii than ps3 and 360.

There is no arguments that nintendo have the best first party , the other other company that rivaled them was sega . If nintendo can secure 3rd party developers back then i feel sony and microsoft are going to have an awful hard time keeping their fanbase around.

Tipsy McSwagger

If Nintendo did not have the juggernaut that is the DS & the 3DS then they would be making games for Sony & Microsoft in the next couple of years. I hope the Wii U is a success but it looks too gimmicky to me.

johnny_ultimate

ShadowHearth wrote: »

i like how fan need to make threads and defend their beloved console!


Who is next? lets defend PS vita next? who will pick that one up?

No I'm not simply defending my "beloved console" (which, TBH, I think is a slightly condescending simplification of my argument), I'm defending the output and spirit of innovation and quality of a well-established gaming company I've seen unjustly maligned recently.

CastorTroy

I'll back Nintendo as well. I have a PS3 and Wii and I've got about the same amount of games for both.
Anyone who complains about the Wii not having games either isn't looking or does enough gaming to get through all the good games available.
I also have the 3DS which lets me play both 3DS and DS games. Just waiting for new Zelda and Metroid titles now.

I don't understand why people complain about "Oh look, another Zelda game". A new IP would be good(Pullblox is excellent from the 3DS eShop) but as long as the gameplay is different then what does it matter having a familiar character on it.

I will get a Wii U. Won't be right away as I have a large backlog of games on both Wii and PS3 but I'll get it sometime

the groutch

Nintendo have always been innovators, trying to tell people what they want rather than asking what they want.
Apple do it very well, Nintendo not so much so.

Deano7788

the groutch wrote: »

Nintendo have always been innovators, trying to tell people what they want rather than asking what they want.
Apple do it very well, Nintendo not so much so.

Sales of the Wii and DS would beg to differ.

hightower1

Deano7788 wrote: »

Sales of the Wii and DS would beg to differ.

Sales do not equate to quality, by that logic MW3 is the best game ever made and Avatar is the pinnacle of the silver screen - Hardly :rolleyes:

I have nothing against the big N, I have so many fond memories of my NES but THATS how far I have to go back to actually remember the last nintendo product that I felt really was the best in class.

Sure Nintendo brought gaming to the masses with the Wii but it sacrificed quality to do that, arguably the playstation 1 brought gaming into the mainstream media and they certainly didnt sacrifice quality to do so, they kept the mature and hardcore audience catered for so well we seem spoiled in comparison to the likes of kid friendly games like nintendo titles on the Wii. Yeah lots of people bought a Wii but Id bet dollars to dough nuts more actual time has been spent playing games on the original playstation rather than the amount of total hours spent playing games on the Wii worldwide.

I guess we'll see this time next year how the Wii U is doing but I wouldnt be expecting a massive 3rd party line up in their future. Hell, even their starting line up (a time when your meant to be showcasing the best you can offer) has year old games like Arkham city and darksiders as selling points. Come on Nintendo the whole world and their dog has played them already, bring us something mature and new and so far only bayonetta has answered that call and thats a launch window game not a launch day game.

The hardware doesnt help things, mixing in old Wii remotes will confuse casuals as to is the Wii U new or not, the second screen so far lacks any killer app to justify its high price, the graphical rift that will be present in 12 months between them and the competition will hurt badly and their online services are very unclear as to their vision. With weeks to launch for a console manufacturer every single games media outlet should have had all of these things addressed but Nintendo havent.

Magill

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'd like to correct some misconceptions about the Wii first.

1. The Wii looks terrible since it's not a HD console.

Well that's your own fault for using the pack in composite cables. Get yourself a RGB cable or a component cable and the Wii looks a hell of a lot better and has the benefit of most games running in 60 FPS. A lot of so called HD games like Call of Duty don't run in 720p run in resolutions very close to the Wii's 480p

2. There's no games on the Wii

Again another absolute fallacy. The Wii has a tonne of great games. Most people only see the third party shovelware but dig beneath that and there's plenty of excellent games, a lot of which are far more interesting than the safe games on the big two. Sure you might think that these games aren't for you and to you I say you are missing out.

Now the Wii doesn't have the sheer volume of games the other two have or the online infrastructure but it makes a great compliment to one of them. To say it's a bad console is just wrong.

Then there's Nintendo's Handheld side of things and quite frankly they have been superb. They are still supporting the DS with incredible games and it has overcome the SNES as my favourite console ever. The 3DS is turning out to be an amazing console too (people complaining about the poor launch are forgetting how terrible every console launch is). The lack of two analogue sticks is an over sight but one that doesn't bother me, I don't see any point in playing the types of games that require one on a handheld device and so far only Resi Revelations really needs it. The region locking debacle however is a very poor move by nintendo.

I like how nintendo handles it's franchises as well. The mario franchises and off shoots always offer something new, while Kirby has been the franchise Nintendo uses to try out its wilder ideas. The only franchise that really needs a shake up is Zelda. As for the lack of new IP, I have to disagree there as well, we had hotel dusk, another code, Xenoblade, Last Story, Pandoras Tower, Elite Beat Agents, Nintendogs, Electroplankton, etc. Nintendo is always quietly innovating.

Nintendo don't make enough games anymore? Rubbish. Find me more prolific developer this generation. You won't find one.

While I think Nintendo have made big mistakes with stuff like region locking the 3DS and I'm a little worried about the WiiU what matters most is that they are still pumping out a silly amount of amazing games from their first and second party teams.

While Sony and MS have stuck to the same old formula Nintendo opened up the videogame audience with the Wii and DS introducing more people than ever to videogames. Not many people know many girls their age that play games but you'll have loads when the DS and Wii generation grow up. They introduced motion controls, a gimmick but one that worked for them. They made the 2D platformer profitable again. They totally rewrote how JPPGs should work with the superb Xenoblade. They changed how 3D platformers work with Galaxy and 3D Land.

If you feel you don't like nintendo games, well I pity you.

Can you list me your top 10 (doesn't have to be in order) wii games ?

Unfortunately not everyone has money to burn on random JRPG's, and since most of these games do average critically, its hard to know whats worth buying.

Deano7788

hightower1 wrote: »

Sales do not equate to quality, by that logic MW3 is the best game ever made and Avatar is the pinnacle of the silver screen - Hardly :rolleyes:

I have nothing against the big N, I have so many fond memories of my NES but THATS how far I have to go back to actually remember the last nintendo product that I felt really was the best in class.

Sure Nintendo brought gaming to the masses with the Wii but it sacrificed quality to do that, arguably the playstation 1 brought gaming into the mainstream media and they certainly didnt sacrifice quality to do so, they kept the mature and hardcore audience catered for so well we seem spoiled in comparison to the likes of kid friendly games like nintendo titles on the Wii. Yeah lots of people bought a Wii but Id bet dollars to dough nuts more actual time has been spent playing games on the original playstation rather than the amount of total hours spent playing games on the Wii worldwide.

I guess we'll see this time next year how the Wii U is doing but I wouldnt be expecting a massive 3rd party line up in their future. Hell, even their starting line up (a time when your meant to be showcasing the best you can offer) has year old games like Arkham city and darksiders as selling points. Come on Nintendo the whole world and their dog has played them already, bring us something mature and new and so far only bayonetta has answered that call and thats a launch window game not a launch day game.

The hardware doesnt help things, mixing in old Wii remotes will confuse casuals as to is the Wii U new or not, the second screen so far lacks any killer app to justify its high price, the graphical rift that will be present in 12 months between them and the competition will hurt badly and their online services are very unclear as to their vision. With weeks to launch for a console manufacturer every single games media outlet should have had all of these things addressed but Nintendo havent.

I was actually just referring to Nintendo's ability to sell to people what they think they want, not the quality of the machines in question. (Although I actually love my Wii and DS/3DS. My favourite games of this generation have appeared on these machines)

Deano7788

Magill wrote: »

Can you list me your top 10 (doesn't have to be in order) wii games ?

Unfortunately not everyone has money to burn on random JRPG's, and since most of these games do average critically, its hard to know whats worth buying.

1. Super Mario Galaxy 1/2
2. Donkey Kong Country Returns
3. Xenoblade
4. Super Smash Bros Brawl
5. Zack and Wiki
6. Muramasa
7. Skyward Sword
8. Sin & Punishment 2
9. Little King's Story
10. Metroid Prime 3

I know it wasn't addressed to me but these are 10 (ok 11 I put both Galaxy games together) that are quite outstanding games and offer tremendous variety. These are just off the top of my head so there may be others I'm forgetting.

Retr0gamer

To add to the above list:

Fire Emblem
Last Story
Pandoras Tower
Shiren the Wanderer
Opoona
Fragile Dreams
Baroque
Batman: Brave and the Bold
Beat the Beat
Punch Out
Tatsunoko vs. Capcom
Warioland Shake Dimension
The 3 Trauma Centre Games
Endless Ocean 1 and 2
Sonic Colours
Resident Evil Umbrella/Darkside Chronicles
Another Code R
Boom Blox
A Boy and his Blob
De Blob
No More Heroes 1 and 2
Mad World
Lost in Shadow
Klonoa
Kirbys Adventure
Kirbys Epic Yarn
Contra Rebirth
Castlevania Rebirth
Gradius Rebirth
Lost Winds 1 and 2
World of Goo
Zangeki no Reginleiv

So yeah, no good games on the Wii :rolleyes: and I haven't even really touched Wiiware.

Most of those games are excellent. A few like Baroque and Fragile Dreams are slightly flawed but very interesting games that gave me some of the best experiences of this generation.

Magill

Deano7788 wrote: »

1. Super Mario Galaxy 1/2
2. Donkey Kong Country Returns
3. Xenoblade
4. Super Smash Bros Brawl
5. Zack and Wiki
6. Muramasa
7. Skyward Sword
8. Sin & Punishment 2
9. Little King's Story
10. Metroid Prime 3

I know it wasn't addressed to me but these are 10 (ok 11 I put both Galaxy games together) that are quite outstanding games and offer tremendous variety. These are just off the top of my head so there may be others I'm forgetting.

I've played 6 of those, will look at the rest tho, thanks.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

To add to the above list:

Fire Emblem
Last Story
Pandoras Tower
Shiren the Wanderer
Opoona
Fragile Dreams
Baroque
Batman: Brave and the Bold
Beat the Beat
Punch Out
Tatsunoko vs. Capcom
Warioland Shake Dimension
The 3 Trauma Centre Games
Endless Ocean 1 and 2
Sonic Colours
Resident Evil Umbrella/Darkside Chronicles
Another Code R
Boom Blox
A Boy and his Blob
De Blob
No More Heroes 1 and 2
Mad World
Lost in Shadow
Klonoa
Kirbys Adventure
Kirbys Epic Yarn
Contra Rebirth
Castlevania Rebirth
Gradius Rebirth
Lost Winds 1 and 2
World of Goo
Zangeki no Reginleiv

So yeah, no good games on the Wii :rolleyes: and I haven't even really touched Wiiware.

Most of those games are excellent. A few like Baroque and Fragile Dreams are slightly flawed but very interesting games that gave me some of the best experiences of this generation.

I got about half way through this list on metacritic (I know its not the most accurate measure of quality) and with the exception of one or two, most of them are very average rated (60-70's)... so its hard to tell if they're actually good games or not because i know you've got a bit of a different taste than i do. I'll take a detailed look through it tho and see if anything sounds appealing to me.

Retr0gamer

Some of those games are severely under rated by critics. A bit like Nier or Enslaved they are far better than the critics said they are and user reviews from people I trust have been in agreement that the are excellent.

From that list the ones I'd classify as above are Opoona, Baroque, Shiren the Wanderer, Fragile Dreams (deserved criticism for a crappy battle system but overall it's a very emotional journey), Endless Ocean games.

The rest though are excellent, not sure they got bad reviews but if they did they didn't deserve them. The only Marmite games there would be Mad World and Lost in Shadows.

Mr.Saturn

I wouldn't, for a moment, suggest that the Wii is the greatest, most-varied console going, the DS, PS2 and SNES have that, but I must say, a lot of my most rewarding hours as a games-enthusiast came courtesy of the much-maligned little white box.

From the number of Sega lightgun ports that found their way, bringing the arcade home in the most accessible fashion, to first and second party flawlessness of the likes of Mario Galaxy and DKCR, I've not once regretted my investment.

ahnowbrowncow

Where is the innovation with pokemon? They're really and truly just milking that cash cow. Moooooo

I'd love if they made it into an open world game for the wii u but I can't see that happening.

Gunmonkey

hightower1 wrote: »

Hell, even their starting line up (a time when your meant to be showcasing the best you can offer) has year old games like Arkham city and darksiders as selling points. Come on Nintendo the whole world and their dog has played them already, bring us something mature and new and so far only bayonetta has answered that call and thats a launch window game not a launch day game.

On the bolded part, if thats your opinion never Google "Playstation 3 launch titles".

As to new, mature titles, ZombieU says hello.

Mr.Saturn

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Where is the innovation with pokemon? They're really and truly just milking that cash cow. Moooooo

I'd love if they made it into an open world game for the wii u but I can't see that happening.

They did that with Colosseum and XD's adventure mode on the Gamecube. Granted, it wasn't best example of Pokemon going, but it didn't sell, or even pique interests enough to warrant Nintendo to keep going, so it'll be a while before it's even brought to table again.

The actual innovation in the main series tends to focus on the battle system, which can make even the most-dedicated RPG nut spin their goggles in amazement, with its level of customization and whatnot. Couple that with new critters, environments and that breeding system that's finally starting to catch up with Dragon Warrior Monsters, and boom, you've your innovation. Or, well, something that does a serviceable job passing for it.

Actually, back on the Wii, it pains me that Captain Rainbow never made it West. It looks like a brilliant combination of the Sir Digby Chicken Caesar sketches, crossed with the Tick, that charges you aiding the fortunes of forgotten Nintendo characters.

ahnowbrowncow

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

They did that with Colosseum and XD's adventure mode on the Gamecube. Granted, it wasn't best example of Pokemon going, but it didn't sell, or even pique interests enough to warrant Nintendo to keep going, so it'll be a while before it's even brought to table again.

The actual innovation in the main series tends to focus on the battle system, which can make even the most-dedicated RPG nut spin their goggles in amazement, with its level of customization and whatnot. Couple that with new critters, environments and that breeding system that's finally starting to catch up with Dragon Warrior Monsters, and boom, you've your innovation. Or, well, something that does a serviceable job passing for it.

That's not really innovation, they've just added a few things in each new installment, I'm an rpg fan and my goggles do not spin in amazement

Fundamentally the gameplay, story and visuals haven't changed or developed much in the past 15 years which is quite disappointing.

If they pushed the boat out made a new pokemon game similar to xenoblade chronicles I'd get the wii u on day one

hightower1

Gunmonkey wrote: »

On the bolded part, if thats your opinion never Google "Playstation 3 launch titles".

As to new, mature titles, ZombieU says hello.

Zombie U just seems like a left 4 dead clone with no co-op tbh.
I'd like to see the Wii U be a success, as a gamer Im sure no one wants to see a founding father like Nintendo take a hit but lets face it... the Wii was hardly the core gamers choice now was it?

I loled when I watched the Batman arkham city armored edition announced at e3, its exactly the same as the 1 year old title everyone has already played with an extra suit and an inventory screen on you controller. As far as i can see thats the kind of title Wii U owners can look forward to until the next gen is released then one by one 3rd parties stop developing serious games for it then the shovel ware avalanche sets in just again.

Retr0gamer

hightower1 wrote: »

Zombie U just seems like a left 4 dead clone with no co-op tbh.

It's got some pretty interesting rogue like elements as well.

K.O.Kiki

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Where is the innovation with pokemon? They're really and truly just milking that cash cow. Moooooo

I'd love if they made it into an open world game for the wii u but I can't see that happening.

Why radically change what ain't broke?

There's something to be said for a developer NOT adding everything including the kitchen sink to their systems.
And having said that, Pokemon is SUBTLY innovative, something I noticed when I skipped 2 generations -- there was some familiarity, but you see a lot under the hood.

*Also*
The Pokemon series resides on handhelds, so keeping it simple (2D) is better.

Kirby

Both sides of this debate have valid points but I have to express my disappointment with Nintendo's first party line up for the Wii-U.

No new Mario game. NSMB wii u is not new. It's recycled in the extreme. It's no surpsie that the 3ds version looks and plays the same. Where is the next mario world, 64, sunshine, Galaxy? Those were fully fleshed out games. They had new mechanics and were must buys for the system. There is nothing on NSMB U that we haven't seen before.

No new Zelda either. Even on the horizon. I realise Skyward sword is only a year old but we should be hearing about the next one in some shape or form. We arent which leads me to believe we are two years away from seeing it. The history of Ocarina and Twilight Princess reveals would back this up.

No new Mario Kart. No new Metroid. No new Starfox. Where are the first party titles???? Pikmin 3 isn't even a launch title. It's coming down the line. I'm a huge Pikmin fan but it won't sell the console to the masses.

There is staggering your IP's strategically and then there is having nothing to show. It's obvious which one it is.

When I hear people refer to the launch line-up as "one of the best line-ups in history" it makes me want to facepalm. There is no system seller there and it's there own fault. A zombie game isn't going to get people queueing round the block no matter how good it is. People aren't going to latch onto nintendo land the same way they did with Wii sports.

There are a couple of interesting looking third party games, but they are risks. There is no risk with the IP's I mentioned when Nintendo makes the games for them. They are always quality. I won't be getting a Wii-U at launch. There just isn't enough reason to. I'm sure a year down the line I'll pick it up when the games start flowing.....but not now.

Mr.Saturn

I imagine a lot of those titles you mentioned are being kept in reserve to stir a sales spike at key points of the year, like Autumn and Christmas (or regional equivalents), or whenever an end-of-quarter conference is on the horizon, in order to have decent figures to bedazzles investors, or, at least, placate them.

Deano7788

I think the choice to go with New Super Mario U rather than a new 3D Mario is down to sales. The Galaxy games sold around 10 and 6.5 million copies respectively while New Super Mario Bros. (both DS and Wii versions) sold 26 million copies each. I think it's quite understandable why they went with the safer option at launch. I'm sure a 3D Mario is in development to some degree and I'll look forward to its arrival.

Kinski

The circle-pad on the 3DS actually takes up a lot of space under the hood, so there's a perfectly good reason why they didn't include a second one i.e. it would result in a bigger unit (and of course push up costs a little). And it really isn't needed; home console-style fare such as OoT and RE: Revelations might be among the best games currently on the system, but ultimately won't be the backbone of any handheld's success (just ask Sony how the PSVita is doing.)

But the WiiU looks to me a misstep. A second screen isn't innovative; it's rehashing an innovation that worked brilliantly on a handheld on a format (home console) to which it's not suited. And if motion controls are an idea with so much potential (as defenders would have it) then why are Nintendo themselves turning their back on them after one generation, in favour of a concept which, IMHO, seems unlikely to appeal much to either casuals or core gamers?

ShadowHearth

These threads make me really laugh.

Xbox thread - I am awesome and better then ps3
Ps3 thread - I am awesome and I am better then Xbox
Wii thread - I am console too!!!

johnny_ultimate

Nintendo haven't completely abandoned motion control (which, I should stress, complement existing control schemes rather than replace them, certainly in their wisest implementations - a motion controlled only future is not a pretty thought) - the Wii-U is still built with Wiimotes in mind. To me, the Gamepad seems destined to work best in unison with the Wiimote - the most exciting utilisation that has been teased so far is one player using the pad as a 'gamesmaster' wreaking havoc in multiplayer. I'm not sold on the Wii-U's longevity just yet, and I certainly agree Nintendo have done a poor job selling it thus far. But I still think there's a lot of interesting things possible if developers are imaginative enough, especially in single player where its uses are less certain.

Retr0gamer

The WiiU might have a poor launch line up but then every console does. At least the WiiU looks like it will have games worth playing unlike many consoles like the 360 and PS3 to name two which had nothing for a few months. As for not rolling out the big name IPs, we are getting NSMB which isone of nintendos biggest selling franchises and of course they won't roll them out at once, they take a while to develop and it's best to stagger these releases.

super_furry

I think people are downplaying the importance of graphics - especially in getting the top tier developers aboard. The Wii U is going to be on a par with the 360 and PS3 which are really showing their age now - especially when compared with the PC. This time next year the next generation of Sony and Microsoft's consoles will either be out or be imminent and the Wii U is going to look very outdated. It runs the same risk that the Dreamcast did of being caught in between generation and only seen as a half step towards what it the 'true' next gen.

Kinski

The Dreamcast was only "caught between" generations in the sense that Sony just lied about the power of the PS2. The failure of that console was a real loss to that whole generation. I'd wager that the WiiU is a lot more powerful than what the first batch of releases suggest, but will end up trailing well behind the PS720s of the future (but this is just my hunch.)

Retr0gamer

I still worry about the future of the WiiU, all is going to depend on this christmas really. If they get off to a good start it will have a good foothold because at this E3 Sony and MS will more than likely be announcing new machines that will steal Nintendo's thunder. I doubt though we will see new consoles in 2013. 2014 is more realistic. Nintendo have a track record of succeeding with underpowered hardware but it's a dangerous game.

super_furry

I just don't think they'll be able to repeat the success of the Wii. I don't think that the crossover audience that they found and sold consoles to during the Wii era is still there. These are the people, adults that didn't usually buy or play games, that took the plunge mostly on the back of Wii Sports. They wanted a Wii to play bowling and tennis when their friends were over and put the whole thing away when they weren't, buying next to no games other than those that came with the console.

The crossover to the non-traditional audience was a real zeitgeist moment that I think is over now. Nintendo did brilliantly to extend the market and their interest by following up with Wii Fit but after that interest totally died as the same people moved on to iPad and Facebook gaming. I just can't see the same people going back to buy a Wii U.

I hope I'm wrong. I was totally wrong about the Wii in the first place and Nintendo are probably right to continue down the path they're on, especially after their last traditional console - the Gamecube - was such a sales flop.

Kinski

You know, I hope it does flop. Nintendo has oodles of capital; it wouldn't spell the end of them as console makers (indeed, they've stated they'd give up on games altogether rather than give up making new hardware). If the casuals desert console gaming, that's a good thing, and Nintendo can dip into their reserves and go back to really competing for the core audience.

Dozen Wicked Words

Kinski wrote: »

You know, I hope it does flop. Nintendo has oodles of capital; it wouldn't spell the end of them as console makers (indeed, they've stated they'd give up on games altogether rather than give up making new hardware). If the casuals desert console gaming, that's a good thing, and Nintendo can dip into their reserves and go back to really competing for the core audience.

So you are shooting something down and hoping it fails before its even launched, bravo. All entitled to our opinions but that one is just stupid (in my opinion!)

Kinski

dooferoaks wrote: »

So you are shooting something down and hoping it fails before its even launched, bravo. All entitled to our opinions but that one is just stupid (in my opinion!)

I think that a second screen built into a controller on a home console is stupid. And I think that pushing up production costs/sacrificing processing power to incorporate such a stupid feature is stupid. And that Facebook-lite style interfaces are stupid. And that casual-friendly mini-game collections are stupid. So yeah, IMHO, stupid idea for a console from a company with shedloads of cash and the expertise and experience of crafting some of the finest games I've ever played? Damn right I hope it fails and they move on to something better.

Dozen Wicked Words

Kinski wrote: »

I think that a second screen built into a controller on a home console is stupid. And I think that pushing up production costs/sacrificing processing power to incorporate such a stupid feature is stupid. And that Facebook-lite style interfaces are stupid. And that casual-friendly mini-game collections are stupid. So yeah, IMHO, stupid idea for a console from a company with shedloads of cash and the expertise and experience of crafting some of the finest games I've ever played? Damn right I hope it fails and they move on to something better.

Ah, so you see a massive failure of the console encouraging Nintendo to pump tens of millions more into a new console? Of course, that's exactly how it worked when they moved from Gamecube, a relative failure to the next console, the Wii, isn't it? Or did they just tinker around the edges with the hardware and introduce a new control scheme, my memory must be hazy on that one.

Kinski

dooferoaks wrote: »

Ah, so you see a massive failure of the console will encourage Nintendo to pump tens of millions more into a new console? Of course, that's exactly how it worked when they moved from Gamecube, a relative failure to Wii isn't it? Or did they just tinker around the edges with the hardware and introduce a new control scheme, my memory must be hazy on that one.

That's premised on the idea that the casual audience will take to the Wii like they did the WiiU, and there's a big question mark there. If they do, Nintendo will be laughing all the way to the bank. But if they don't, it will be very bad for Nintendo, but good for games. If their strategy fails, they'll have little choice but to "pump tens of millions" into a console that appeals to the core gamer (assuming they really are committed to producing new hardware.)

The Wii was a massive commercial success. But as a "revolutionary" platform for games? Maybe, but for all the wrong reasons. Among core titles developed for the Wii, IMO only Skyward Sword benefited from having motion controls. One bloody game (I'm excluding games which used the Wiimote like a lightgun such as the brilliant S&P2).

I think a hugely-talented games company are currently following the wrong path, and the success they've enjoyed is tempting others down the same route, with Kinect and Move-type bull****. Like 3D movies, the sooner this **** just goes away the better.

Dozen Wicked Words

Kinski wrote: »

That's premised on the idea that the casual audience will take to the Wii like they did the WiiU, and there's a big question mark there. If they do, Nintendo will be laughing all the way to the bank. But if they don't, it will be very bad for Nintendo, but good for games. If their strategy fails, they'll have little choice but to "pump tens of millions" into a console that appeals to the core gamer (assuming they really are committed to producing new hardware.)

The Wii was a massive commercial success. But as a "revolutionary" platform for games? Maybe, but for all the wrong reasons. Among core titles developed for the Wii, IMO only Skyward Sword benefited from having motion controls. One bloody game (I'm excluding games which used the Wiimote like a lightgun such as the brilliant S&P2).

I think a hugely-talented games company are currently following the wrong path, and the success they've enjoyed is tempting others down the same route, with Kinect and Move-type bull****. Like 3D movies, the sooner this **** just goes away the better.

I'm not saying whether its right or wrong, or even suggesting it would be a successful strategy, I was pointing out that after their last failed console, the Gamecube, they didn't pump tens of millions, they reused large parts of the hardware they already had. So why if this console fails would they do it differently this time? I don't think they would do anything differently, and if they changed their emphasis, I would worry it would be to the detriment of "core" "non-casual" games and gamers and they would look to become even blander and everything for everyone.

Dont be at yourself

Nintendo are a reflection of Japan itself -- a wonderfully resourced, incredibly skilled company with a fantastic tradition that is completely ambivilent to global trends and changes. That is both its biggest strength and its biggest weakness.

There was a time when Nintendo was at the forefront of the industry - leading it, and shaping its very future. However, ever since the Playstation (and latterly Xbox) arrived and elevated gaming from the realm of kids and teenagers to that of clubbers, students and adults, Nintendo has not so much taken a back seat, as jumped into another car and sped off in another direction.

Nintendo often talk about abandoning the 'red ocean' hardcore to go after the untapped 'blue ocean' mass market -- and it's certainly paid off with the Wii. Its greatest successes have been casual titles like Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Mario Party and so on. But for the majority of Wii owners, these are the experiences that are played once or twice, when the family are home for Christmas, and then put back in the cupboard. Are these people going to buy in to new hardware again? How many of these bought more than a couple of games for their Wii in the first place?

No doubt, the Wii catalogue has plenty more to offer (and I'm proud to have worked at Nintendo on some of the titles singled out already in this thread), but the likes of Xenoblade, Pandora's Tower are the complete opposite end of the scale: targeting the very niche, hardcore gamer.

Basically: Nintendo have, in my eyes, failed to find the balance between mass market appeal and deep, rewarding gameplay. The very best games of this generation couple broad appeal & accessibility with well-designed and well-polished gameplay experiences. Where are the Wii equivalents of Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, LA Noire, Heavy Rain? They don't exist. This crucial swathe of the market -- the one that pays the bills and keeps the lights on at Sony and Microsoft -- are outright ignored on Nintendo platforms.

So Nintendo are in trouble with the Wii U. They'll have a tough time enticing the casual audience to upgrade from the Wii (especially as they're now competing with smartphones, tablets, facebook games, and so on), and their catering to the traditional hardcore is now so focused and so niche, that the audience likely isn't there to support the console. It speaks volumes that their marquee hardcore franchise for the Wii U is Bayonetta - a game that was a commercial flop due to its niche appeal.

Retr0gamer

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Where are the Wii equivalents of Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, LA Noire, Heavy Rain? They don't exist.

Other Uncharted and Heavy Rain all of those games are third party games and Heavy Rain is kind of pants. Sony and especially Microsoft don't create very many games unlike nintendo. Nintendo's real challenge is courting the third parties to support the WiiU and to do this they have to attract gamers with disposable income. Then again Nintendo might not even be upset by if they don't, the only games that really sold on the Wii were first party titles.

Also Bayonetta was far from a commercial flop, it just wasn't as successful as Sega wanted it to be, Platinum were more than happy with how it sold.

Kinski

dooferoaks wrote: »

I'm not saying whether its right or wrong, or even suggesting it would be a successful strategy, I was pointing out that after their last failed console, the Gamecube, they didn't pump tens of millions, they reused large parts of the hardware they already had. So why if this console fails would they do it differently this time? I don't think they would do anything differently, and if they changed their emphasis, I would worry it would be to the detriment of "core" "non-casual" games and gamers and they would look to become even blander and everything for everyone.

That's a possibility, but I just think that could happen even with the WiiU. Nintendoland is probably a bid to introduce people who lapped up NSMB games to Nintendo's other main franchises. Will we get games as intelligent, challenging, and creative as Galaxy 1&2 for the WiiU, or will we get dumbed down versions of Zelda and Metroid? And just look at how they've treated some of their franchises recently - farming out a new 2D Metroid to a developer that didn't have a clue how to do one, and rebooting Pilotwings as a WiiSports Resort-style thing.

At least the Wii had a clear delineation between casual and core titles. Wii Sports Resort is casual, Xenoblade is core. But it did have a major problem with the layout of the controller, necessitating awkward attempts at mapping traditional control schemes onto the Wii Remote. At least with the Wii U, all the buttons and sticks are there, and are where they should be, so that won't be a problem.

If they produce Galaxy and Skyward Sword-type games, and throw in the odd Bayonetta, then I'll eventually buy-in. But my fear is that this will be a console on which we see Nintendo attempting an uneasy marriage of core and casual style play in their games.