Can you feed a dog cat food?

david75

Our guy is shedding loads and even has flaky skin coming off him. He's a boxer and they've got notoriously sensitive stomachs. I'm told that the fish oils in cat food would put him right after a month or so but I've never seen this mentioned anywhere else.

I have him on red mills spot. I'm not sure it's the food for him at all but we're on a really tight budget and don't know how I can improve his dinners effectively but with an eye on budget.

Any ad ice appreciated.

ISDW

Cat food is too high in protein for dogs. If you want to add some fish oil, go to Lidls or Aldi and get sardines in oil (not brine) and add to his dry food, their tins are very cheap. You don't need to add much, even 1 tin once a week, spread over 2 dinners.

boomerang

Also you can give him any healthy leftover scraps from the dinner. Just reduce the amount of Spot then, so he's not getting too many calories.

I don't mean fatty offcuts of the meat or burned bits of the roast spuds now - the stuff you usually just chuck in the bin. I mean if you've any left over cooked veggies like peas, green beans, cabbage, sprouts, broccoli or cauliflower. They're good for vitamins and fibre. Also any lean cooked meat you might have left over, but without any bones! You can also give starchy foods like cooked carrots, spud or pasta but they pack a lot of calories so only give them in moderation. A spoon of cottage cheese or plain natural yoghurt over his dinner occasionally is good too - we get ours from Lidl. Also chopped boiled egg if they are getting close to the expiry date and mighn't be used - he couldn't get better!

Also pork liver and lamb liver is super cheap in the supermarket. Once every two weeks or so I wash some pieces of liver, bring it to the boil in a small saucepan, reduce the heat and let it simmer for a few minutes until it's just about cooked. When it's cool I chop up some and sprinkle over the dog food. Full of iron and vitamins A and D. You can freeze whatever is left over for the next time - just defrost it the night before.

Just never over-supplement with one particular kind of food.I know commercial dog food is nutritionally balanced but adding fresh foods (especially meat, fish and eggs) really ups the quality of the diet and so long as you don't over-supplement with one particular kind of fresh food, your dog's diet should still balance out. Remember to go easy on the carbs you add in or he'll gain weight.

david75

Might so that for a while cow he is underweight for his size. Thanks for the excellent advice.

Tranceypoo

My vet told me to never let the dogs eat the cats food (my older dog would clean her bowl if I left the room for a nano second and left the cats bowl down), she said too much protein and it could give them a bad stomach, interestingly she said it was ok for the cat to eat the dogs food (which I have fed her in the past when I've run out of cat food and she loves it!)

Second the sardines or mackerel in oil, something like 49 cent in Aldi/Lidl, I also give my two a raw egg each in with their dry food once a week, they love it!!

orchidsrpretty

david75 wrote: »

Might so that for a while cow he is underweight for his size. Thanks for the excellent advice.

If your dog is snything like my boxer, eating cat food will make their skin flare uo more. I feed mine Hills prescption z/d ultra allgeren. Apparently there is something in the food that the stomach doesn't register as "food" so causes no upsets, at 70€ for 15kgs its pricey but worth it inthe long rong when you take dogs happiness/vet bills into account.

You could also try your butchers for cheap meat cuts or even the "bargin" corner in Tesco's. I used to get a lot of fish there for my dog for very cheap.

Maggie 2

Try a different brand of dogfood, like Pedigree, Gain, Hills, etc. Sardines or tuna good idea.

Rommie

I would reccommend you change your dog's food to one with a higher meat content, or else start adding in as much raw meat/fish as you can afford to.
Do not feed him cat food though! Cats and dogs have different nutritional requirements, cats cannot produce taurine (an essential amino acid) and it needs to be added to their food. Dogs can make this so don't need it added to their food. Cats cannot survive on dog food as they will go blind and can develop a serious heart condition without taurine. Cat foods are a lot higher in fats than dog foods, so you will end up with an incredibly obese dog if you only feed him cat food.

ButtersSuki

Maggie 2 wrote: »

Try a different brand of dogfood, like Pedigree, Gain, Hills, etc. Sardines or tuna good idea.

Wouldn't try Pedigree - heard someone once describe it as "McDonalds for dogs" :eek:. Try some of the hypoallergenic brands (James Wellbeloved, Hills etc.) topped up with fish as described above.

ISDW

OP, I've not heard of Red Mills Spot, do you mean Red Mills Star? Their greyhound food is probably better than the Star, and it is reduced VAT, so isn't very expensive. I would recommend the one for resting greyhounds, rather than one of the higher protein ones.

A lot of the more expensive foods work out about the same as the cheap ones, as you actually feed less, so maybe look into some other brands.

Maggie 2

ISDW wrote: »

OP, I've not heard of Red Mills Spot, do you mean Red Mills Star? Their greyhound food is probably better than the Star, and it is reduced VAT, so isn't very expensive. I would recommend the one for resting greyhounds, rather than one of the higher protein ones.

A lot of the more expensive foods work out about the same as the cheap ones, as you actually feed less, so maybe look into some other brands.

Greyhound food isn't reduced Vat. Agree it's good value, though.

anniehoo

Tranceypoo wrote: »

interestingly she said it was ok for the cat to eat the dogs food !!

A one off feeding is ok, but the essential amino acid cats need is taurine as they cant synthesise it in their body.Dogs can so isnt added as a dietary requirement.Long term feeding of commercial dogfood to cats isn't advised.

ISDW

Maggie 2 wrote: »

Greyhound food isn't reduced Vat. Agree it's good value, though.

I thought it was, I know working dog food is VAT free in the UK, but was told it was reduced here.

DogsFirst

ISDW wrote: »

Cat food is too high in protein for dogs. If you want to add some fish oil, go to Lidls or Aldi and get sardines in oil (not brine) and add to his dry food, their tins are very cheap. You don't need to add much, even 1 tin once a week, spread over 2 dinners.

ISDW and me disagree on this statement. Cat food has more protein in it definitely, this is based on recent study by pet food science arms that found, after some "ground breaking research" that cats prefer / do better on a food "that is more like their natural diet in the wild". This study was driven by cat owners on the ground citing multiple cases of cats dying from lack of taurine (with meat contents reducing steadily since the 70's and replaced with carbs and plant protein). Vets then got on board and independent studies confirmed taurine levels were on the floor.

Driven by complaint pet food manufacturers worldwide have upped the protein content of cats food as a result. They now boast it across the label.

Dogs love cat food. This could be based on the the higher meat content, or because it means the cat gets less, who knows. Either way, that food is likely a good thing for your carnivorous dog. Not that they should be eating it every day. The tinned stuff is gack, cooked, stuffed full of cereals and usually quite fatty. They need dog food.

There's no such thing as too high protein for a dog. Coming back to the rabbit example, suck the water out, you have 70% protein and 30% fat. the 24% protein and below in dry dog foods is the minimum required for normal function (based on 4 blood values, and not hip scores, skin and coat condition etc as you would expect) as set by AAFCO 2008 Feeding Guidelines. Over time this has become interpreted as the optimum need by your dog, which is absolutely false. Optimum protein is closer to 60 or 70%. This is why dogs do so much better on dry foods with loads of meat. Better still on a fresh meat diet.

One study that shows this is a study on sled dogs. A number of dogs were maintained at 16, 24, 32, and 40% of their calories from high-quality animal protein (Reynolds et al., 1996). Dogs fed the highest protein level maintained a larger plasma volume and red blood cell mass during strenuous training. Moreover all of the dogs consuming the low-protein diet had at least one injury during the racing season that resulted in it being removed from training for a minimum of one week (Reynolds et al., 1996). Those dogs consuming the highest amount of protein were injury free.

Protein builds everything like skin and coats (50% of the protein your dog eats goes into maintaining these two alone and its the first difference you notice on a meat diet). Protein builds muscle and bone. If you're using dogs to pull sleds this study proves they need a lot more protein than the vast majority are now seen to contain.

DogsFirst

Maggie 2 wrote: »

Greyhound food isn't reduced Vat. Agree it's good value, though.

Greyhound food has 13% VAT, normal dog food 23%, revenue.ie.

DBB

I have to say, I cannot understand how too much protein can be a problem for a carnivore!
I've no idea where this widespread nugget of misinformation came from, the pet food companies perhaps, but it makes absolutely no sense, when you think about it.

planetX

my dog gets quite a bit of catfood, as he is the official dishwasher for my cats. He's fine on it, how can more meat content be bad for a dog? The only concern would be if it led to weight gain, but that's not an issue here. The cats love it because he finishes up all the old, licked out bits, I get to wash clean bowls, and he gets a yummy treat. Its win/win/win for us:)

ISDW

DogsFirst wrote: »

ISDW and me disagree on this statement. Cat food has more protein in it definitely, this is based on recent study by pet food science arms that found, after some "ground breaking research" that cats prefer / do better on a food "that is more like their natural diet in the wild". This study was driven by cat owners on the ground citing multiple cases of cats dying from lack of taurine (with meat contents reducing steadily since the 70's and replaced with carbs and plant protein). Vets then got on board and independent studies confirmed taurine levels were on the floor.

Driven by complaint pet food manufacturers worldwide have upped the protein content of cats food as a result. They now boast it across the label.

Dogs love cat food. This could be based on the the higher meat content, or because it means the cat gets less, who knows. Either way, that food is likely a good thing for your carnivorous dog. Not that they should be eating it every day. The tinned stuff is gack, cooked, stuffed full of cereals and usually quite fatty. They need dog food.

There's no such thing as too high protein for a dog. Coming back to the rabbit example, suck the water out, you have 70% protein and 30% fat. the 24% protein and below in dry dog foods is the minimum required for normal function (based on 4 blood values, and not hip scores, skin and coat condition etc as you would expect) as set by AAFCO 2008 Feeding Guidelines. Over time this has become interpreted as the optimum need by your dog, which is absolutely false. Optimum protein is closer to 60 or 70%. This is why dogs do so much better on dry foods with loads of meat. Better still on a fresh meat diet.

One study that shows this is a study on sled dogs. A number of dogs were maintained at 16, 24, 32, and 40% of their calories from high-quality animal protein (Reynolds et al., 1996). Dogs fed the highest protein level maintained a larger plasma volume and red blood cell mass during strenuous training. Moreover all of the dogs consuming the low-protein diet had at least one injury during the racing season that resulted in it being removed from training for a minimum of one week (Reynolds et al., 1996). Those dogs consuming the highest amount of protein were injury free.


Protein builds everything like skin and coats (50% of the protein your dog eats goes into maintaining these two alone and its the first difference you notice on a meat diet). Protein builds muscle and bone. If you're using dogs to pull sleds this study proves they need a lot more protein than the vast majority are now seen to contain.

Yep, which is why my dogs get higher protein food during the winter, working season, and less during the summer when they are resting. But the OP isn't asking about a working sled dog, he/she is asking about a pet boxer.

DBB wrote: »

I have to say, I cannot understand how too much protein can be a problem for a carnivore!
I've no idea where this widespread nugget of misinformation came from, the pet food companies perhaps, but it makes absolutely no sense, when you think about it.

I have discussed this a lot with my vet, who I trust, and who has told me it can lead to organ damage.

So as the OP was asking if he/she can feed their dog cat food, DBB and Dogsfirst, you would say yes?

DBB

I'm not wanting to stir things, but does your vet have specific training in nutrition? Probably not. I trust my vet too, but not when it comes to her take on either food, or behaviour, because she's not trained in either area. In fairness to her, because she has me to feed her the new research as she's doing procedures on my dogs, she's now way ahead of most vets on both subjects, but also freely admits she simply hasn't got the training to advise clients on either score. However, she has never fed commercial food to her own dogs... I think this tells its own tale.
That too much protein can cause organ damage in a carnivore makes no biological sense. I used to tell people not to feed their dogs too much protein, as it causes hyperactivity, organ damage etc. At that time I had the same insight/education into food as vets do. But the research is there now, clear to see, that most of what we've (incl vets) been taught about dog food comes from the dog food companies, and is pure misinformation... Look at what's happened with cat food as posted above! Serious about-turn once proper, independent research was done. The same, I feel, will eventually happen with dog food.
Organ damage, hyperactivity etc is not caused by protein. It's caused by ridiculous amounts of carbs in dog food, also additives and the over-processing.
To answer the OP, no, I would not feed tinned cat food to a dog. It is too high in fat (not protein), and it contains too much other crud that's of no nutritional benefit to a dog. If I had a cat, I wouldn't feed it commercial cat food either!

ISDW

So, what happens to the excess protein if a dog is getting a moderate amount of exercise? Where does it go? I feed higher protein to my dogs when they are working, racing greyhound food has higher protein in it than resting greyhound food. I know when my dogs are on the higher protein food that their pee smells much stronger. So, if we accept that extra protein is needed for dogs doing a lot of exercise, and pups and young dogs, for growth, if a dog continues to get a lot of protein, where does the excess go?

boomerang

Well the thing is, dogs can exist well on a diet of animal protein and carbs rather than one that is purely animal protein. There is no need to feed high amounts of protein to a non-performance dog. Definitely for oldies I would be wary of feeding too much protein because it does create extra work for the kidneys. If the kidneys are already impaired, you're accelerating the rate of damage.

I used to feed my crew Orijen and then I started feeding raw. But when Boo was diagnosed with renal insufficiency I had to create a diet for her that met her protein needs while minimising phosphorus. That's where carbs come in for her - they add calories without bumping up the phosphorus. Sadly she can't have raw meaty bones anymore as they pack the highest phosphorus punch of all.

She is on a home-prepared diet of animal protein (sometimes cooked) freshly cooked carbs and veggies. She's never been better! The moisture content is a huge boon and she is getting a good variety of micronutrients.

I think the BARF/RMB diets are great but I wouldn't be a blind believer, either. No diet is without its drawbacks.

DogsFirst

Fair enough but re the excess protein thing - excess protein is rid harmlessly by the kidneys. I've put up dozens of articles to show dogs with kidneys nephrectomised to 10% (artificially chopped by crazy scientists), mimicking kidney failure. They then stuff them full of protein, no harm done, they actually fared moderately better. Carnivores process protein cuz thats what they do (so do we in fact). In only a few cases of sever chronic kidney failure is protein restriction useful in human patients, as a rule this does not enter the discussion for normal patients. Pet food manufacturers (mod edit) latch on to this and cut protein in older dogs as it "may help kidney yady yady yah", just like adding plant fibre "may help digestion...". May help but wont. Plant fibre helps bunged up omnivores and severely constipated dogs, which is rare. It should not be a matter of course.

By reducing protein in a resting dog, you are increasing carbohydrate, the exact opposite of what a sports nutritionist would recommend to an athlete. Carbs build fat, protein is harmlessly weed out. Hence caveman diet. Atkins diet. Eat fresh veg and meat and nuts when building muscle etc. Protein is the business. Carbs are not. Harvard nutritionists recommend humans to eat max 25% carbs and if you have to eat cereal, do not eat wheat and corn (ref available on request), go for the slow release whole grain stuff. Dry food companies are feeding dogs 50% wheat / corn. All completely contrary to an omnivore recommendation, and we're talking about a carnivore.

Carnivore make their own carbs in a process called glucogenesis. If they need carbs they build them from protein (eg before a big run or in winter time). You can't pre-empt this natural process by feeding carbs as it "may help energy levels" any more than you can add protein into a cows high carb diet as it "may help muscle growth".

But the OP was talking about cat food - would I feed to a dog? Yep if I was stuck. Would I recommend it, absolutely not. But would I recommend for a cat? Absolutely not. Would I recommend it for the mother in law?! Hmmmm

boomerang

Well DogsFirst when your dog is geriatric and has kidney disease with elevated BUN and creatinine, tell me if you'd still be brave enough to feed her just on raw? Meat is extremely high in phosphorus. The only food item with higher phos. levels is bone. The dietary aim for dogs with kidney disease is to feed them as little phos as possible, to slow the disease process. I'd want to be off my head to be feeding my CRF dog a high protein diet at this point.

And protein reduction is indicated for dogs in late-stage kidney disease with good reason. It makes the dog horrendously nauseous so they stop eating altogether.

DogsFirst

And re veterinary advice, with all due respect to vets, incredible people, very hard working, mean the best etc but it's an impossibility that a kid can do 5 years in college with limited practical and be the master of all science disciplines - think about it, physio, vast amounts of disease, reproduction, oncology, surgery, nutrition etc etc - in 5 different animal groups. GP'd are fantastic but if you got cancer, or even need specific dietary information, you go to a trained nutritionist, dietician, clinical nutritionist, gastroenterologist etc.

A vet spent 5 years doing all that stuff, in two modules they touch upon nutrition in all the animal groups and in none of these do they discuss fresh feeding in dogs. I rang over 400 vets to advertise my seminars last year. 54% of the vets I spoke to recommended not giving bones to dogs, completely contrary to the British Vet Dental Assoc. Four vets said "only cooked bones". Pedigree, on their website, interviewed 3500 Irish and UK vets sometime recently and a whopping 74% recommended Dentastix for teeth cleaning in dogs. Dentastix with 3 ingredient sugar and fourth ingredient salt. For teeth.

While vets listen to dry food lectures for a couple of days and are then accosted by them every week until they retire, I, and many others like me, spent years in college studying the effects of diet on the behaviour and digestive anatomy of animals, learning a trade. Spent years advising on it in guide dogs, three years full independent research consultant on it, doing seminars etc. I would be seriously embarrassed if a standard vet could hold their own in a nutritional debate with me after that. It's be like learning how a light bulb works in school and arguing with your electrician as he puts in your power shower!!

Vets are deeply confused on nutrition, a very carefully orchestrated issue beginning in the 90's when Colgate Palmollive entered 27 of the top US veterinary universities on the back of their highly successful campaign to use dentists to promote their toothpaste (see Parker Popes excellent article in Wall Street Journal "Why Vets Recommend Designer Chow"). Brilliant marketing thanks to millions of investment. Now every vet recommends their science plan. Probably a coincidence. Ask your vet what book they used, they will say "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition". The only book used by vets, produced by the Morris Foundation. Guess who owns them?

DogsFirst

boomerang wrote: »

Well DogsFirst when your dog is geriatric and has kidney disease with elevated BUN and creatinine, tell me if you'd still be brave enough to feed her just on raw? Meat is extremely high in phosphorus. The only food item with higher phos. levels is bone. The dietary aim for dogs with kidney disease is to feed them as little phos as possible, to slow the disease process. I'd want to be off my head to be feeding my CRF dog a high protein diet at this point.

And protein reduction is indicated for dogs in late-stage kidney disease with good reason. It makes the dog horrendously nauseous so they stop eating altogether.

Its a tricky one that, I totally agree. "End Stage Kidney Disease", which dogs are 7-20 times more likely to suffer than humans, has a solid nutritional cause. A life of difficult to digest plant protein, cooked meat, food chemicals, buckets of immuno-debris, boosters, flea, worm etc.

End stage KF is a tricky one, phosphorus might come into play near the end, I'm no vet and totally concede to any vet worth a damn there. However I was talking about chronic kidney failure up to 90% and for this dogs are proven to fare better on lots of fresh, easy to digest meat protein.

To avoid the problem all together also requires a fresh meat diet.

Once the doo doo hits the fan, there's no point in talking to me.

Whatever is seen to make them comfortable I'm all for.

Will dig up some refs, hang on.

DogsFirst

Taking OP off course, do not want to discuss in this thread, will open a new one!

DBB

ISDW wrote: »

So, what happens to the excess protein if a dog is getting a moderate amount of exercise? Where does it go? I feed higher protein to my dogs when they are working, racing greyhound food has higher protein in it than resting greyhound food. I know when my dogs are on the higher protein food that their pee smells much stronger. So, if we accept that extra protein is needed for dogs doing a lot of exercise, and pups and young dogs, for growth, if a dog continues to get a lot of protein, where does the excess go?

Just to clarify, do you ever feed them the higher protein food when they're not working?

DogsFirst

boomerang wrote: »

Well DogsFirst when your dog is geriatric and has kidney disease with elevated BUN and creatinine, tell me if you'd still be brave enough to feed her just on raw? Meat is extremely high in phosphorus. The only food item with higher phos. levels is bone. The dietary aim for dogs with kidney disease is to feed them as little phos as possible, to slow the disease process. I'd want to be off my head to be feeding my CRF dog a high protein diet at this point.

And protein reduction is indicated for dogs in late-stage kidney disease with good reason. It makes the dog horrendously nauseous so they stop eating altogether.

Re elevated BUN levels etc, its a mixed up one.

Took this from my book!

"....while it has been shown that raw-fed dogs have higher blood urea nitrogen (~20 mg/dl, n = 227) than cereal-based dry-fed dogs (16 mg/dl, n = 75; Antech, 2003), every study conducted to date on the dog’s ability to process this higher protein concentration show that it is of no consequence to the carnivorous dog (Robertson et al., 1986; Bovée, 1991; Finco et al., 1994; Hansen et al., 1992; Laflamme et al., 2008).

The fact remains there isn't a single study out there to suggest excess protein may be a problem for dogs. Researchers have tested this over and over. Some authors such as Robertson et al. (1986) and Finco et al. (1992) replicated chronic kidney failure (CKF) in a large group of dogs by artificially removing 75 - 90% of their kidney function. They proceeded to feed these dogs diets containing varying quantities of protein – 19%, 27% and 56% – for short and long terms. They found that even the highest protein levels had no adverse effect on the dogs, which safely processed whatever protein was given to them. In fact it was found that reduced protein diets reduced the filtration rates and plasma flow of kidneys..."

The idea of lowering protein / phosphorus is on the assumption that it reduces the work load of the kidneys (as excess protein is rid by the kidneys, hence you can't get fat on it when resting). However the above studies, and there are many more like them, indicate this is not an issue with carnivorous dogs. Even with only 10% of their kidneys working, dogs do fine. CKF rarely gets past this to End Stage KF as your dog would be walking dead.

Fresh protein is not the problem, cooked, indigestible stuff is. Its incredible that the very first thing recommended in kidney disease is lots of fresh water. Flush them out. Water and digestibility. Then your vet reaches for a dry food, with salt, weird cooked protein strands, gluten (increases immune action), food chemicals (rid by kidneys).

On these sort of studies I would be relying on my meat. I have a large number of clients who come to me with kidney troubles, on special foods, and they walk away far better off on a fresh diet. The above science seems solid enough!

But its not to say some dogs may benefit, I don't know....

boomerang

I'd have to disagree with the above, DF, based on my own extensive reading on kidney disease in dogs. (You can guess why I've been motivated to read so widely on the subject, with my own doglet diagnosed.)

When kidney disease is so prevalent in older dogs and cats, you've got to wonder how much does the crappy, western, commercial pet food diet contribute.

I'm lucky my dog is doing beautifully on a home-prepared diet using fresh ingredients. My vet wanted to put her on k/d immediately, which is low-protein and highly processed. No way, José. Since switching to home-prepared foods, she has never looked better and has the energy that would put a much younger dog to shame.

The thing about CRF dogs and protein, is that when the kidney is impaired to the degree that it can no longer effectively filter nitrogenous waste, the dog begins to feel horribly sick. That to me is an adverse effect on the dog. That's the only reason for reducing protein, in my book, and that is end-stage CRF. Early stage CRF dogs can have a normal amount of protein in the diet, so long as you choose wisely to keep within the daily phos. limit for that stage in the disease and go with highly biologically available foods such as eggs, chicken and fish fillets. You bump up the calories with fats rather than carbs, if at all possible. So lamb or the cheaper beef mince is great. My dog's diet right now is higher in protein than it would be were she on a commercial food.

The reason for minimising phos. is that as the kidneys decline in function, they are less able to filter phosphorus, and excess circulating phos has a crystalising or calcifying effect on the kidney tissue, hastening the kidneys' demise. (Think that's right, can't rightly remember.) Also the body begins to leach calcium from the bones to maintain an appropriate calcium: phosphorus ratio. (Again, from memory so mightn't be 100% right.)

ISDW

DBB wrote: »

Just to clarify, do you ever feed them the higher protein food when they're not working?

No, during the summer they are on lower protein.

DogsFirst

boomerang wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with the above, DF, based on my own extensive reading on kidney disease in dogs. (You can guess why I've been motivated to read so widely on the subject, with my own doglet diagnosed.)

When kidney disease is so prevalent in older dogs and cats, you've got to wonder how much does the crappy, western, commercial pet food diet contribute.

I'm lucky my dog is doing beautifully on a home-prepared diet using fresh ingredients. My vet wanted to put her on k/d immediately, which is low-protein and highly processed. No way, José. Since switching to home-prepared foods, she has never looked better and has the energy that would put a much younger dog to shame.

The thing about CRF dogs and protein, is that when the kidney is impaired to the degree that it can no longer effectively filter nitrogenous waste, the dog begins to feel horribly sick. That to me is an adverse effect on the dog. That's the only reason for reducing protein, in my book, and that is end-stage CRF. Early stage CRF dogs can have a normal amount of protein in the diet, so long as you choose wisely to keep within the daily phos. limit for that stage in the disease and go with highly biologically available foods such as eggs, chicken and fish fillets. You bump up the calories with fats rather than carbs, if at all possible. So lamb or the cheaper beef mince is great. My dog's diet right now is higher in protein than it would be were she on a commercial food.

The reason for minimising phos. is that as the kidneys decline in function, they are less able to filter phosphorus, and excess circulating phos has a crystalising or calcifying effect on the kidney tissue, hastening the kidneys' demise. (Think that's right, can't rightly remember.) Also the body begins to leach calcium from the bones to maintain an appropriate calcium: phosphorus ratio. (Again, from memory so mightn't be 100% right.)

Hey Boomer, great info, you're well up. I don't think we're a million miles apart at all, looks like we agree!

My articles constantly highlight that owners should not be feeding "pet" meats such as beef and lamb. These begin at 30% fat, 10% protein and the fat goes up from there at the cost of the protein. No dog needs that stuff. Looks meaty so customers think they're getting a bargain. Everything I do is based around chicken and fish! (and non fatty meats incl some organs and game). I know you said you use beef mince for weight, I would use lean beef mince or fatty chicken bits, just a preference.

Spot on with diet for kidney types I just didn't go into it. High quality meat highly digestible is chicken and fish, thats what I believe and its all I push and that's what the above refs say.

Also agree with all the science except the whole phosphorus causing problems (especially leaching) is an end stage thing though spoken about like it could happen your dog any minute,which is wrong but I'm at the limit if my knowledge here .

CKF is entirely manageable, and more progress is made on fresh, high quality, digestible meats than any dry, think that wraps it up!

DogsFirst

david75 wrote: »

Our guy is shedding loads and even has flaky skin coming off him. He's a boxer and they've got notoriously sensitive stomachs. I'm told that the fish oils in cat food would put him right after a month or so but I've never seen this mentioned anywhere else.

I have him on red mills spot. I'm not sure it's the food for him at all but we're on a really tight budget and don't know how I can improve his dinners effectively but with an eye on budget.

Any ad ice appreciated.

Need to remove wheat from boxers diet. Due to sensitivities it blocks absorption of zinc, magnesium and essential proteins, all the stuff that keeps your dogs hair on. Cut the wheat, increase fresh meat, sardines in tomatoor fish oil caps, supplement with a high zinc food (half teaspoon of safflower) or give lots of fresh bones that she can chew and swallow which have all the above. Green beans are great for above (cook lightly).

DBB

ISDW wrote: »

No, during the summer they are on lower protein.

Cheers for that. The reason I asked is that I'm thinking it's more likely that it's exercise that's causing your dogs' urine to become more concentrated, not their food. In other words, they're using up more water during work than they do when just doing normal doggy stuff in the summer. I'm pretty sure the same happens to athletes in training, unless they make a conscious decision to lash the water into themselves!

ISDW

DBB wrote: »

Cheers for that. The reason I asked is that I'm thinking it's more likely that it's exercise that's causing your dogs' urine to become more concentrated, not their food. In other words, they're using up more water during work than they do when just doing normal doggy stuff in the summer. I'm pretty sure the same happens to athletes in training, unless they make a conscious decision to lash the water into themselves!

yeah, i was wondering if it was dehydration, but I always feed them with water, and they are baited well before running - I add something nice and smelly to their water (usually some fish) to ensure they take the water on board to keep them hydrated. There is lots of debate as to whether rehydration solutions are effective in working dogs, I've tried some, and can't really decide, there is scientific research on both sides:rolleyes:

boomerang

On kind of the same topic, for the last few years I've taken to soaking the dogs' food. It started when they were on Robbies, which is dehydrated. We got into the habit and it stuck. I was apprehensive at first because I thought the food would stick to their teeth and that it wasn't natural for a carnivore to eat mush instead of something they can get their teeth into!

I know everyone says it's bad for their teeth but I honestly can't see it. My oldie still has a great set of gnashers - no tartar and no gingivitis and she hasn't had a dental in about four years I'd say.

I don't think it's natural to feed a dog a dry food, any more than it would be natural for us to live on dry cereal and crackers. I know that's not very scientific, but it can't be nice for a dog to always have to slake their thirst after eating. I think this line the manufacturers push that dry food helps keep teeth clean because of its abrasive action is baloney, tbh. My lads get Plaque Off in their food daily and Dentisept on their gums once or twice a week and that does more for them than eating sackfuls of dry food, in my opinion! Plus they get dried tripe and things like that for some chewing therapy.

One boon with the soaked food is that it fills the dogs up better and makes them more satiated than if the food were dry. It also slows them down, so no regurgitating minutes later! Now it's cold out we've been using hot water to soak the food so it's reasonably warm when they eat it. Again, I can't say it's in any way therapeutic, but it feels like something nice to do for them. If we've cooked veggies or if I've cooked up some liver for them, I'll use the broth instead of water, for added flavour. I was at a Royal Canin talk once where the rep insisted that dogs don't have very discriminating taste buds and can eat the same dry food for a lifetime. This despite questions from the floor like "why do my dogs go mad for tripe, then?" I do think dogs enjoy a variety of flavours in their diet. Again, not scientific but it makes me feel good to provide that!

The amount of water added to the dry food wouldn't meet their daily fluid intake requirements, but they do drink a lot less from the bowl now.

planetX

boomerang wrote: »

On kind of the same topic, for the last few years I've taken to soaking the dogs' food. It started when they were on Robbies, which is dehydrated. We got into the habit and it stuck. I was apprehensive at first because I thought the food would stick to their teeth and that it wasn't natural for a carnivore to eat mush instead of something they can get their teeth into!

I know everyone says it's bad for their teeth but I honestly can't see it. My oldie still has a great set of gnashers - no tartar and no gingivitis and she hasn't had a dental in about four years I'd say.

I don't think it's natural to feed a dog a dry food, any more than it would be natural for us to live on dry cereal and crackers. I know that's not very scientific, but it can't be nice for a dog to always have to slake their thirst after eating. I think this line the manufacturers push that dry food helps keep teeth clean because of its abrasive action is baloney, tbh. My lads get Plaque Off in their food daily and Dentisept on their gums once or twice a week and that does more for them than eating sackfuls of dry food, in my opinion! Plus they get dried tripe and things like that for some chewing therapy.

One boon with the soaked food is that it fills the dogs up better and makes them more satiated than if the food were dry. It also slows them down, so no regurgitating minutes later! Now it's cold out we've been using hot water to soak the food so it's reasonably warm when they eat it. Again, I can't say it's in any way therapeutic, but it feels like something nice to do for them. If we've cooked veggies or if I've cooked up some liver for them, I'll use the broth instead of water, for added flavour. I was at a Royal Canin talk once where the rep insisted that dogs don't have very discriminating taste buds and can eat the same dry food for a lifetime. This despite questions from the floor like "why do my dogs go mad for tripe, then?" I do think dogs enjoy a variety of flavours in their diet. Again, not scientific but it makes me feel good to provide that!

The amount of water added to the dry food wouldn't meet their daily fluid intake requirements, but they do drink a lot less from the bowl now.

anytime I feed dry I do the same now. I believe its a myth about dry food being good for teeth - I've watched my dog and cats eating dry food, they crunch once at most before swallowing. And if you've ever had a dog throw up its dinner, you find lots and lots of intact pellets.
I don't feed much dry food now, but when I do I soak it in warm water and add an egg or something.

DogsFirst

planetX wrote: »

anytime I feed dry I do the same now. I believe its a myth about dry food being good for teeth - I've watched my dog and cats eating dry food, they crunch once at most before swallowing. And if you've ever had a dog throw up its dinner, you find lots and lots of intact pellets.
I don't feed much dry food now, but when I do I soak it in warm water and add an egg or something.

Fresh bones are the answer to all this, get 'em in there!

And nobody, absolutely nobody, claims dry food is good for dogs teeth, only manufacturers and those selling their info. 4 out of 5 dogs have gum disease by 3, like it's natural for a carnivore!

Its gas when they bring out a new food claiming "this ones great for teeth!!" But that means all their others aren't and the vet should take them down, following the oath "do no harm". This ones great for kidneys, so what about all the rest with high salt and potential food antigen and chemical content? Hmmm, maybe a thick shiny coat this month and reduce his pancreatitis next month, boost his immune system for christmas and some joint support for the new year.....what an absolute dupe!!!

Bannasidhe

Had a JR who would only eat cat food for about 4 years - she turned her nose up at everything else and would prefer to go hungry. During that 4 year period we were getting her a pet passport so we could bring her home from Australia. The Aussie's are very strict and she had to be checked out (including blood tests) by a vet 24 hours prior to to travel. Any health issues would have meant she wouldn't be allowed to travel. Vet rang us just to tell us she was the healthiest dog he had ever seen.
She died in September having reached the grand age of 16 1/2.

Our current two JR's (one of whom was a rescue on the verge of starvation, with serious infections, dull coat where handfuls of hair would come off when we rubbed her and it was touch and go as to whether she would survive) now get a tin of sardines each once a week (less then 50c each in Aldi) and they both hoover it up,the rescue dog in particular - after just a month she is a glossy coated, bright eyed bundle of energy.

I am not a fan of dried food. We do provide a small bowl of Burns for them and one of dogs will have one or two (other has no interest) but tbh we throw out more then she eats as that particular bowl seems to be a slug magnet.

planetX

DogsFirst wrote: »

Fresh bones are the answer to all this, get 'em in there!

And nobody, absolutely nobody, claims dry food is good for dogs teeth, only manufacturers and those selling their info.

but this is the problem, vets do - especially where cats are concerned they push the dry food all the way. Many also advise no bones. It's very hard to know who to trust.

DogsFirst

Trust the British and Australian Veterinary Dental Associations over your vet.

Also trust the American Veterinary Medical Association when it enthuses that boosters should only be given every three years max. It used to be yearly (as this was how long ruthless drug manufacturers would test for, despite constant pressure. Further tests would reduce product usage. Vets thus boosted every year. As a result from massive pressure from immunloigcal experts such as Shultz as to the negative effects of such a program, they now test for three years. This is, in every experts opinion, still far too little. Still vets advise every year. Like an MMR every year for your kid.

These are the people you trust. Vets cannot be masters over so many issues, they cannot and do not test the drugs they recommend, they know little about the side effects except what is written on the side of the packet. They prove this daily by boosting dogs annually and recommending dry food for kidney patients, reduced protein food for seniors etc. Its simply not possible with their workloads, so they trust what they hear from manufacturers. If you want to know if the new BMW is any good, don't ring the BMW dealer!

Again, if you have a serious problem, you do not go to a GP. Vets are fabulous GP's, but not even close to being specialists without further studies, which the vast majority have no time for. If they do it'll be written on their door, properly so.

Thats why you have people like Boomerang, doing all the study him/herself, feeding a diet that contradicts the vast majority of advice of practicing vets.

Mo60

boomerang wrote: »

I think this line the manufacturers push that dry food helps keep teeth clean because of its abrasive action is baloney, tbh.

I do not intend to criticise but am posting my experience.

Two years ago I rescued a Yorkshire Terrier from a dog pound and took him to my vet for a check-up. My vet could find nothing wrong with him, other than the fact his teeth were covered in tartar. He recommended that, rather than put the dog through having his teeth cleaned, to feed him on dried food and see the outcome. Within a short period the tartar disappeared and has not returned.

DBB

You see, there is research to show that dry food is better than tinned food at keeping teeth clean. It's all relative, I suppose, because although dry food is undoubtedly better than tinned, bones and appropriate chew toys are infinitely better than dry food, and therefore better than soft food.
Anyway, that's a little bit beside the point. Chances are, in your case Mo60, that your wee Yorkie was perhaps fed crappy oul tinned food before you got him (let's face it, many of the little breeds are), and so feeding him dry food could only make things better for his teeth, if that makes sense?!:o

Mo60

DBB wrote: »

Chances are, in your case Mo60, that your wee Yorkie was perhaps fed crappy oul tinned food before you got him (let's face it, many of the little breeds are), and so feeding him dry food could only make things better for his teeth, if that makes sense?!:o

My vet said the same thing as you regarding tinned food probably causing the tartar. The Yorkie was quite happy on the dry food, so I kept him on it and the tartar has never returned.

DogsFirst

No doubt some dry foods can keep the tartar away, especially the ones designed to do it. Its like saying smoking will kill you. Doesn't get everyone! Which is lucky for some of us......ahem........ahemahem...ahemAHEMahem...aaaaahhEEMMM aahhEEMMMM.....

Tinned food is guranteed tooth, gut, joint, brain rotting slop.

Theres a swedish product called Plaque Off which based on seaweed that clears the plaque on dogs teeth. They did a study of 6o beagles, cleaned all their teeth and divided them in half. Check it out here. To 30 they fed the brown seaweed with their food, the other 30 got nothing. Then fed them dry food for 88 days. The brown seaweed significantly kept tartar down, and halitosis (smelly breath) that results from gingivitis (bad breath is essentially the sulphur produced by anaerobic bacteria living in the gums.....bacteria farts I suppose). Aaannyway, point is, and something not touched on by the researchers, was that the other 30 dogs who didn't get the supplement did develop tartar, gingivitis and halitosis. 'course it wasn't the dry food that caused it, it must of been something else in the beagles sterile labratory cage....

boomerang

Plaque Off rocks!

And nothing gets rid of tartar, except descaling. I never heard of tartar coming off on its own? If it did, I'd save a fortune on visits to the dental hygienist! Mo60, did you mean that the Yorkie had a lot of plaque and inflamed gums? That'd probably make more sense.

My greyhound had bad breath and some gingivitis when she came to us, and a bit of tartar build-up along the gumline. We've fed her soaked food and Plaque Off from the start and it all really improved. She had a dental last Friday at the same she was spayed, so her teeth are now gleaming It'll be interesting to see if that continues and how long it lasts.

Mo60

boomerang wrote: »

Plaque Off rocks!

And nothing gets rid of tartar, except descaling. I never heard of tartar coming off on its own? If it did, I'd save a fortune on visits to the dental hygienist! Mo60, did you mean that the Yorkie had a lot of plaque and inflamed gums? That'd probably make more sense.

I can only describe the coating on the teeth as hard, whether it was plaque or tartar I cannot say . All I can say is that feeding my dog dried food worked in removing whatever was coating his teeth, and they have kept clean for the past two years.

DogsFirst

The unique polysachharides in Ascophyllum (the brown seaweed I mentioned) are clinically proven to break down tartar / calculus in humans since 1954 and dogs since 2008 (the study and refs for both was included in the link in the previous post).

Chewing bones twice a week for a month removes tartar from tigers (REF available on request) within a month, and dogs and cats (Lonsdale 1991) within the same. It is why they're recommended by top vet dentists. My own personal experience is that teeth are cleaned within two weeks, three fresh crunchy bones a week. Recommend ribs, lamb carcass, whole chicken pieces etc.

There is absolutely no need for the horror and expense of descaling in all but the worst cases. Gingival bleeding will incresase initially in bad cases but this is normal as the teeth are wobbled. This will disappear within a few bones, teeth will be noticeably clearer by two weeks.

DogsFirst

boomerang wrote: »

Plaque Off rocks!

And nothing gets rid of tartar, except descaling. I never heard of tartar coming off on its own? If it did, I'd save a fortune on visits to the dental hygienist! Mo60, did you mean that the Yorkie had a lot of plaque and inflamed gums? That'd probably make more sense.

My greyhound had bad breath and some gingivitis when she came to us, and a bit of tartar build-up along the gumline. We've fed her soaked food and Plaque Off from the start and it all really improved. She had a dental last Friday at the same she was spayed, so her teeth are now gleaming It'll be interesting to see if that continues and how long it lasts.

This proves how good Ascophyllum is. Soaking food gives dry fed dogs even less chew friction. Ascophyllum triumphed despite. Great stuff. Asco successfully prevents any new tartar from forming. But dogs with poor dentition need more chew, not less!

boomerang

I can't feed bones any more, now that Boo's got kidney disease it's not fair to give them to one doglet and not the other. My crew always went nuts for raw meaty bones. I have to say, Boo did get slab fractures but I think that I was giving them the wrong kind of bones, initially - mostly beef shin bones. Started treating them to lamb shanks and they never had a bother after that. I'd take them off them once they'd picked the meat off and before they got down to shards. Dogs really do have a very strong need to chew, tear and gnaw - it's what they're built for.

planetX

boomerang wrote: »

I can't feed bones any more, now that Boo's got kidney disease it's not fair to give them to one doglet and not the other. My crew always went nuts for raw meaty bones. I have to say, Boo did get slab fractures but I think that I was giving them the wrong kind of bones, initially - mostly beef shin bones. Started treating them to lamb shanks and they never had a bother after that. I'd take them off them once they'd picked the meat off and before they got down to shards. Dogs really do have a very strong need to chew, tear and gnaw - it's what they're built for.

Lamb shank - is that what you ask for at the butcher? I'd like to start giving my fellow the odd bone, has anyone a guide of which bones are safest? As a veggie for more than 20 yrs I don't have a clue what to ask for at the butchers. I keep standing at the meat section in the supermarket looking at chicken legs, oyster thighs, chicken wings - and I don't know what kind of bones are in them, and if any are safe, so my dog gets none:( what's a good bone that a large enthusiastic dog is unlikely to choke on???

DBB

planetX wrote: »

Lamb shank - is that what you ask for at the butcher? I'd like to start giving my fellow the odd bone, has anyone a guide of which bones are safest? As a veggie for more than 20 yrs I don't have a clue what to ask for at the butchers. I keep standing at the meat section in the supermarket looking at chicken legs, oyster thighs, chicken wings - and I don't know what kind of bones are in them, and if any are safe, so my dog gets none:( what's a good bone that a large enthusiastic dog is unlikely to choke on???

I don't know if there's a "procedure" as such PlanetX, but I'll tell you what I did
I got chicken wings, and held onto the thick end, allowing my GSD to chew on the wing-tip with her big carnassial teeth out of the side of her mouth. Now, I will warn you, I had to hold on for grim death, but I gradually allowed her to move on up the wing until I was sure she was really giving the bones a good old chew before swallowing. For a big dog, even if she didn't chew the wing brilliantly, it's small and soft enough to slide on down.
Then I graduated her onto chicken legs, doing the same thing at first. She's a very skilful bone-eater now. My Westie, on the other hand, is an utter pig, and I have to cut the wings into sections, or hold on as above, because I've seen the daft bugger swallowing them whole, and whilst the GSD would be okay doing this, he's too small. Damn Westies .
Tesco do big chicken legs which have a huge amount of meat on the top, they even have a wee bit of the spine still attached, usually in packs of 4, sometimes 5. They are much adored by Mrs. GSD, but I've also found a butcher who's doing turkey legs for a reasonably good price, so Mrs. GSD is in for a treat one of these days!